Tamil and Brahmins

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Tamil Brahmins (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/index.php) - Current Affairs (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27) - - take over of chidambaram temple by tamil nadugovernment (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=1863)

prabhakaran123

02-06-2009 06:31 PM

take over of chidambaram temple by tamil nadugovernment The Chennai High court delivered its judgement approving the appointment of an adminisrter and take over by Government, ousting the Deekshidars from the scene . One need not go in to gamut of the issue. It is pertinent to read the important observatlions of teh honourable justice, that whenever whenever a paty adminstrating the temple does not keep proper accont and there are lapses, the Government can appint adminstrator. Now the ball is in Deekshidars court. They have to state the real positon of accounts, and publicie it. Whether the Charity Commissoner has received the acounts in time. Whether the religous trust has submitted the return t the Income tax Departament for verification, and whether they have been properly audited, are the issues onec has to find answer. Many trust grow over time, especialy trust, which are public and religious. Even Tirumala devastanam, shirdi devasthanam, face the same problem. Howeve the Government have got a duty to compensate the lively hood of those Deekshidars who have been maintaining the trust over years,whowre dependanat on this profession for time immemorial. General feeling among many is that the anti brahmin tamil nadu goverment is politicising this withthe help of various cross sections. While there should not be any oppositin from deekshidars side to chant devaram and thiruvachagam, the government should also encourage the age old traditon of chanting slokas in sanskrit. The Government should not paly with the sentiments of the people. Prabhakaran. d

s007bala

02-06-2009 09:43 PM

shri prabhakaran Kazahgams will take over temples only where huge revenue is pouring.If there is no money in undyal,govt will let dikshitars keep the temple.Root cause of take over is money.Poor dikshitars,their livelihood is stopped.

In the same way,is the kazagham leaders,stopping their own practice of stopping the children to become manthiris?Father is CM,automatically son or daughter is groomed?Why becoz the son or daughter is aidiot who knows nothing but what daddy or mummy did? So,double standards.Why,becoz people are number one idiots,who cave in to these sick minded leaders!!A curse for India,in my opinion.Kula Kalvi Thittam,as Rajaji used to say!!Again a paarppan is right,rofl..:) sb

s007bala

02-06-2009 10:30 PM

re Dr.Swamy to file PIL against Tamilnadu DMK Govt’s take over of Chidambaram Temple By janamejayan February 4, 2009. Statement of Dr. Subramanian Swamy, President of the Janata Party. I have decided in the public interest in the Appeal to be filed in the Madras High Court against the Single Judge order of February 2, 2009 directing the Tamil Nadu Government to take over the management of the 1200 Nataraja temple in Chidambaram. This Order has to be challenged in the larger national and public interest of opposing State control of Hindu religious institutions. Reasonable regulation on governance of these temples and such institutions is welcome, but State take-over is abhorrent to the concept of genuine and enlightened secularism, and moreover is discriminatory since mosques and churches are completely exempt by the Government from any scrutiny or regulation. ( SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY )

Seshadri Subramaniam

02-07-2009 09:38 AM

Is it possible for brahmins to show their protest now?

tbs

02-07-2009 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 17566) Is it possible for brahmins to show their protest now?

hi sesh sir. i saw a pic of chidambaram dikshtars with jayalalitha in dinamani e paper yesterday.......but there is no single word of protection from swamijis so called protectors of hinduism/bhrahmins.......its pity situation for dikshitars........i heard the news that the govt put hundial in nataraja temple........govt wants money ........nothing to do religion... vote bank politics.......nobody has gutts to touch mosques/ churches..... regards tbs

happyhindu

02-07-2009 09:58 AM

can someone tell what is the story from the beginning. how did this situation come about and why? this also shows the need for unity...the need to put aside any differences if present, put aside the difficult portions of the past, unite within first, productively interact with other communities, and ask together, as one massive group, can the govt still refuse?

tbs

02-07-2009 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyhindu (Post 17570) can someone tell what is the story from the beginning. how did this situation come about and why? this also shows the need for unity...the need to put aside any differences if present, put aside the difficult portions of the past, unite within first, productively interact with other communities, and ask together, as one massive group, can the govt still refuse?

hi HH there is some high court order to take over chidambaram temple by TN govt.....its long legal battle story going on....so kazgams are more intersted in vote bank......through legal/democratic election way , we can stop this.......but poonaikku yaru mani kattarathu... annanum kali aga mattan....thinnayum kali agathu... regards

prabhakaran123

02-07-2009 11:01 AM

dear friends the thread started my me on chidambaram temple take over, has received spontaneous response from every one of us. Yes i agree, why the pontiffs ae silent on these issues. It is Dr Subramanian sway who has thought of waging legal battle. Yes, it agree, the undial is one more source for collecting money by the DMK,problably to use in future as ita is used in thirumangalam election. It si hight time tht the middle class literate come together and use the tool of vote to bring in to force a Government which is sane in its thinking. Let us unite to gether.

[email protected]

02-07-2009 11:29 AM

SriP123, It is a long time dream for MK to take over this Temple,since his first wife(sister of C.S.Jayaram) from chidambaram. The Huge collection of money daily,another reson the Dikshters also give the temple for Cinima shooting and lot of complaint against them. But their livehood standstill. For details pl, go thro Tambaram Vision paper the article published to support the dikhthers and true picture what happend.Dt20.04.2008. All things happend only because of Arumugasamy, supported by Veduthali sruthaigal and communists for vote bank.If the Chennai High court having guts give same vertict to the

Take over of Adi Parasakthi Temple accupied at GST Road and encrochments at HighWays Dept lands. The Temple Run by a Telugu man self style Adkalar belong to Naidu community.

Nacchinarkiniyan

02-07-2009 11:39 AM

The Chidambaram temple was constructed by the Tamil Kings and not the Dikshidars. The Dikshidars were entrusted with the administration of the temple by the Kings. It was the practice in the old days. The Kasi Vishwanth temple was taken over by the government of U.P from the Brahmins who were running it. The same case with the Vaishno Devi temple in Jammu and the Panduranga temple in Pandharpur, Maharashtra. The reasons given in each case was maladministration by the Brahmins who were controlling it earlier. In all the three cases the public supported the take over. The same reason is of maladministration is being given now. Now it is up to the Dikshidars to prove to the satisfaction of the courts that this charge is wrong. Earlier they went to the Supreme court and got a favorable order claiming to be a separate denomination. All the political parties in Tamil Nadu want to make political capital out of this. This is not a religious issue. This is not an issue of Brahmins versus the rest. The religious leaders should keep out of this. Even earlier in the 1950s when this issue was before the court, the Tamil Brahmin leaders did not seem to have supported the Dikshidars. Talking about money from temples, I have not seen any one raising this issue in the case of the Sabari Malai Ayyappan temple when the whole world knows that the Kerala Budget is totally dependent on the income from Sabari Malai. Talking about looting the temples it is the Government of Kerala which is doing it.

Nacchinarkiniyan

02-07-2009 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 17575) SriP123, It is a long time dream for MK to take over this Temple,since his first wife(sister of C.S.Jayaram) from chidambaram. The Huge collection of money daily,another reson the Dikshters also give the temple for Cinima shooting and lot of complaint against them. But their livehood standstill. For details pl, go thro Tambaram Vision paper the article published to support the dikhthers and true picture what happend.Dt20.04.2008. All things happend only because of Arumugasamy, supported by Veduthali sruthaigal and communists for vote bank.If the Chennai High court having guts give same vertict to the Take over of Adi Parasakthi Temple accupied at GST Road and encrochments at HighWays Dept lands. The Temple Run by a Telugu man self style Adkalar belong to Naidu community.

It is true that Arumgaswamy was supported by the political parties. But that came much later. He wanted to be a Othuvar. He was prevented from reciting the Thevaram from a particular place. Initially no one bothered. later some political parties supported him. He bacame a pawn in their hands. Please do not use this forum for criticizing other religious leaders. Bangaru Adigalar is considered a Siddha. But for him the Dravida Kazhakam would have become very popular in the districts. He has retained these people in Hinduism and thus done a yeomen service to Hinduism. His temple was constructed by money collected by him. Chidambaram temple was there even before the Dikshidars were even heard of.

[email protected]

02-07-2009 12:30 PM

Sri Nachji., This issue was not mal practise, whtheir to allow singing Davaram in Kanagasabai in front of the Main diety or not. But due to divisions between Dikshiders,and some one wanted to take over as chief peresit etc., all put together and went court, now again DMK men will enter in admin and every thing will go wrong. There chief will say no God, but udanbrafugal wand money to spent with out anywork, now the ywill started to extrcted from the trading and other busines peoples money for every festivel.Also they will put Digt Banners etc in praice of their leader about this issue. Let that Lord SIVA should Come to their resque.

s007bala

02-07-2009 06:47 PM

I think just like how there Vatican,a seperate country for Christians,we should have a sepearte country for Hindus.Maybe 'Sanatican' and have an organised religious order.Of course its easier said than done,as i see,we are one hell of dis-organised organised religion.Brahmins especially the Jathi Brahmins,are being targetted by Kazhagams.There is unwritten rule in TN,to capture Paapathi to either marry them or keep them as Wappatti!!The Kazhagam dingbats do not realise,only if Paappan is there,then you have Paapathi.I tell you,seroiusly,Axe Brand Party dedicated to LOrd Parashu-Raman,should be made as Brahmin Party world wide,with brahmins and those hindus,who will help our cause,should be started.....plz think over this...unity is the utmost of requirement... sb

Seshadri Subramaniam

02-07-2009 07:20 PM

sb, there is lukewarm response to the unity thing... as far as brahmns go... probably, we have to implement it successfully, for the rest of the community to realize it and join voluntarily. Illena vaadham, prathivaadham panni sandai pudichundu irukku vendiyadhu thaan... Regards

s007bala

02-07-2009 08:13 PM

S S,ya....united we stand divided we fall.That is why Tamil Brahmins are falling and not a force to recknon with.Basically,i researched and figured out why this disunited feeling crops up.Becoz by our very nature,in our genetic orientation,we are imbibed with a consciousness from past birth lives,a sense of freedom.....which does not want to be cowed down....a rebel without a cause! But what is happening in TN via Kazhagams is,sooner or later Islam,Christians,Sikhs,Jains,.....etc places of worship will be taken over by Govt.They are setting a precedent to follow in the future or a total anarchy and chaos will follow soon.Maybe after the death of Shri MuKa.But i am 120% sure,and i predict that in the future,this Govt meddling in religious affairs like Temple Administration,will prove to be a deadly lethal combinations,which will tear the fabric of TN,sooner than later.Unless,wiseness crops in. sb

Krishnakumar

02-08-2009 02:36 PM

It is unfortunate that the temples are managed by people who doesn't believe in religion. It can be managed by the religious leaders of the particular locality who are God fearing and sensitive to

swallowing temple properties. Inspite of having huge wealth, it is pathetic to see the condition of the temples. First of all we should not allow any body who is not interested in religion to manage or interfere in any of its activities. It is purely upto the devotees to manage and decide. Monarchy was better where we had only one king compared to several emperors existing now (thadi eduthavan thandavarayan). We need a huge movement to stop all these atrocities on attacking the religious leaders, swindling the temple properties and tortures against brahmin community. Deivam nindru kollum.

s007bala

02-08-2009 06:36 PM

The idea of building new temples in every locality,is also a cause.The money & power,that get enmeshed in popular temples,makes political leaders tempted to handle the coffers for other welfare schemes.However,these politicians,first take care of themselves and their family and friends first and then only the common people.As usual people trust these political leaders,who have now firmly ensconsed themselves over the years,and have a huge following.Caste exists in India.In TN,suppressing brahmins and coming up in life based on this tactic has yielded results to people like Anna Durai,MGR,MUKA,JJ,.......etc.They continue to flog brahmins so that other caste community votes are harnessed.This is prophesied.Brahmins will start behaving like non-brahmins.People with adharma values will hold power.But from 2000 - 2480 ,the righteous rule will prevail in bhu-loka.India will shine too. sb

[email protected]

02-09-2009 10:32 AM

This is in reply to earlier reply, A Siddher means he never teaches Unique methods of Pooja and rituals, Siddhers never worshiped a particular God, a particular cast and community, Their teaching based upon what they seen with in them and to express to the mankind's benifits. Siddhers were against URUVA VZIPADU,Hommams, etc., our tamilsiddhers the true tourchbearers to the HINDUisam. Let us follow their teachings under a True GURU. s.r.k.

s007bala

02-09-2009 05:00 PM

Sage Agastyar was a Tamil Siddhar. sb

s007bala

02-10-2009 05:32 AM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 17698) This is in reply to earlier reply, A Siddher means he never teaches Unique methods of Pooja and rituals, Siddhers never worshiped a particular God, a particular cast and community, Their teaching based upon what they seen with in them and to express to the mankind's benifits. Siddhers were against URUVA VZIPADU,Hommams, etc., our tamilsiddhers the true tourchbearers to the HINDUisam. Let us follow their teachings under a True GURU. s.r.k.

srk "Jnana is given neither from outside nor from another person. It can be realised by each and everyone in his own Heart. The jnana Guru of everyone is only the Supreme Self that is always revealing its own truth in every Heart through the being-conciousness 'I am, I am.' The granting of true knowledge by him is initiation into jnana. The grace of the Guru is only that Self-awareness that is one's own true nature. It is the inner conciousness by which he is unceasingly revealing his existence. This divine upadesa is always going on naturally in everyone." -Sri Ramana Maharshi

ravivararo

02-17-2009 02:40 PM

Now Lord Siva Perform Ananda Thandavam for the High court Order. it is victory to Tamil (!) and Tamilians(!!). in the order the court mentioned that 75. Acts of mismanagement:Learned Senior Counsel for the Petitioner submitted that the order of the Commissioner dated 31.7.1987 appointing Executive Officer and the confirmation order of the Government dated 09.05.2006 are based on extraneous or irrelevant considerations. It was mainly argued that by appointment of Executive Officer for better management, Commissioner has deviated from the direction of the High Court in W.P.No.5638/1982 and that there is paradigm shift in the order which would vitiate the impugned order of appointment of Executive Officer. 76. Of course in the order in W.P.No.5638/1982, it was directed to treat the order dated 20.7.1982 as show cause notice with a further direction to afford opportunity to both parties. After affording opportunity to both parties, Commissioner has passed the order dated 31.07.1987 pointing many acts of mismanagement as indicated in the show cause notice dated 20.7.1982. To mention a few:No proper maintenance of accounts for offerings to the temple and donations collected. Missing / loss of number of gold jewels and other valuable items. Unaccounted jewels / gold ingot kept by Podhu Dikshidars. When called for explanation as to unaccounted jewels, Writ Petitioner claimed that they are not the temple jewels and therefore, there was no necessity to account for those jewels. Enquiry revealed that many gold jewels were melted and gold ingots were made. 77. As pointed by the learned Addl. Advocate General that the charges contained in the show cause notice definitely attract action under Sec.45 of the Act. The show cause notice indicates several grave irregularities like (i) non-accounting of gold ingots and gold coins worth Rs.2.2 lakhs kept in the Karuvoolam and detected by the Asst. Commissioner, Cuddalore in the presence of RDO, Chidambaram and District Superintendent of Police; (ii) there was also loss of 860 grams of gold in melting the old jewels; (iii) non-accounting of gold Kanikkai articles received as Kanikkai to the temple. those Dixits have not accounted the properties of Sivan Sothu (sivan Sothu Kula Nasam) The claim of religious denomination of Podhu Dixits is without any base and ground, as per the SC's observation that State of Madras and Another [(1981) 1 SCC 445] referring to the very provisions of the Act has held that so far as Tamil Nadu is concerned there is initial presumption that a temple is a public one, it being up to the party, who claims that it is a private temple, to establish that fact affirmatively. Of course, this initial presumption must be rebutted by clinching testimony in order to establish that a temple is a private temple. In the same judgment the very situation of temple on Government property was also taken as a piece of evidence in support of a public temple. In the case on hand, as already stated above, there was neither pleading nor clinching evidence as to who founded the temple and as to how the temple belonged to the appellants. It is also on record that the temple was constructed on paramokh land. Under the circumstances, it is clear that the appellants have failed to establish that the denomination of Rajus constructed the temple. Thus, when both the courts below concurrently erred in recording a finding with no evidence to support that the suit temple belonged to religious denomination of Rajus and not a public temple, the High Court was right in upsetting such finding. In our view the appellants have miserably failed to rebut the initial presumption that it is a public temple. Hence we agree with the High Court in recording a finding that the suit temple is a public temple as in the verdict

M.S.V. RAJA & ANR V. SEENI THEVAR & ORS [2001] RD-SC 388 (14 August 2001. it is further held by SC that The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature in STATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html).

it is clearly mentioned by Supreme court that It is settled position in law, having regard to the various decisions of this Court that the words "religious denomination" take their colour from the word `religion'. The expression "religious denomination" must satisfy three requirements – (1) it must be collection of individuals who have a system of belief or doctrine which they regard as conducive to their spiritual well-being, i.e., a common faith; (2) a common organisation; and (3) designation of a distinctive name. It necessarily follows that the common faith of the community should be based on religion and in that they should have common religious tenets and the basic cord which connects them, should be religion and not merely considerations of caste or community or societal status. (NALLOR MARTHANDAM VELLALAR & ORS V. THE COMMISSIONER, HINDU RELIGIONS AND CHARITABLE ENDOWMENT [2003] INSC 328 (30 July 2003) http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/di...%20of%20temple) Hence even in the Supreme Court, Tamil and Tamilian will win and defend the false case of those Dixits. From the Constitution of India, Supreme Court till Lord Siva are in the Tamil and Tamilian's Favour.

************************************************** *****

Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 17555) Dr.Swamy to file PIL against Tamilnadu DMK Govt’s take over of Chidambaram Temple By janamejayan February 4, 2009. Statement of Dr. Subramanian Swamy, President of the Janata Party. I have decided in the public interest in the Appeal to be filed in the Madras High Court against the Single Judge order of February 2, 2009 directing the Tamil Nadu Government to take over the management of the 1200 Nataraja temple in Chidambaram. This Order has to be challenged in the larger national and public interest of opposing State control of Hindu religious institutions. Reasonable regulation on governance of these temples and such institutions is welcome, but State take-over is abhorrent to the concept of genuine and enlightened secularism, and moreover is discriminatory since mosques and churches are completely exempt by the Government from any scrutiny or regulation. ( SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY )

s007bala

02-21-2009 04:06 PM

The only thing that i foresee is ,LOrd Siva destroying TN's Kazhagams,as the evil asuras are dying.Soon it will be a reality,Na Ma Si Va Ya. sb

ravivararo

02-21-2009 04:27 PM

Sivan Sothu Kula Nasam (those who mismanage the Lord siva's properties).:rofl:

s007bala

02-21-2009 04:33 PM

I wonder what Kazhagams have to say about origin of Lord Siva with his residence in Kailasham aka Himalayan Mountain Range in bhu-loka?Maybe according to Kazhagams Lord Siva is a 'aryan'.Technically in tamizh 'ariyan' means rare one. sb

ravivararo

02-23-2009 12:10 PM

Dravidian God Shiva was offended by Aryans as god of Phallus (shishna Deva). Dravidian were called as s worshipper of Shishna Deva. the said Dravidian God Siva (brahma, Perumal too) was not at all mentioned by any of the Vedas. He is not an aryan God.

ravivararo PETITIONER: SRI KANYAKA PARAMESWARI ANNA SATRAM COMMITTEE & ORS. ETC. Vs. RESPONDENT: THE COMMISSIONER, H.R.C. & E. & ORS. ETC.

BENCH: K. RAMASWAMY, G.B. PATTANAIK

ACT:

02-23-2009 12:14 PM

HEADNOTE:

JUDGMENT: WITH CIVIL APPEAL NOS. 8535/94 AND 1341/89 AND CIVIL APPEAL NO. 2718 OF 1997 [Arising out of SLP (C) No. 8437/97 (CC-1840/89) ORDER CA NOS.1340/86, 8535/94 & CA NO.2718/97 [Arising out of SLP (C) No. 8437/97 (CC-1840/89) Delay condoned and leave granted in the special leave petitions, Application for intervention is dismissed. The controversy raised in this appeal is covered by the judgment of this Court in Sri Adi Visheshwara of Kashi Vishwanath Temple, Varanasi & Ors. Vs. The State of U.P. & Ors. [(1997) 3 SCALE 1) In the present case, the appellants Satram Committee claimed the status of as a denominational temple under Article 26 (d) of the constitution. The High Court has held that they have the denominational status, but, nonetheless, it was negatived on the ground that the Managing Committee would be appointed with non-official and official members under the A.P Charitable and Religious Institutions Endowment Act. Thus, the appellants claimed the status of a denominational one and the Government has questioned the later direction. Admittedly, the Arya Vysya Community is having as many as 102 gotras. In other words, they are representing a large segment of Hindus worshipping Goddess Matha Kanyakaparameswari. In the above cited case, the claim was that the Hindus who worship God Shiva constitute a denominational section entitled to the benefit of Articles 26(b) and 26(d) of the Constitution. A Bench of three Judges, to which both of us were members, had considered the matter in detail and held that Hindu Worshippers of God Shiva are not a denominational section and, therefore, they are not entitled to the benefit of Articles 26 (b) and 26 (d) of the Constitution for management of the Temples. Following the above ratio, we hold that the Hindu sections of the Arya vysya Community who worship Goddess Matha Kanyakaparameswari are not denominational section for the purpose of Articles 26(b) and 26(d) of the Constitution. As a consequence, it is an institution Covered by the provisions of the Endowments Act. Accordingly, they are entitled to be administered in the light of the law laid down by this court in Pannalal Bansilal Patti & Ors. Vs. State of A.P. [(1996) 2 SCC 498].

s007bala

02-23-2009 09:35 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18025) Dravidian God Shiva was offended by Aryans as god of Phallus (shishna Deva). Dravidian were called as s worshipper of Shishna Deva. the said Dravidian God Siva (brahma, Perumal too) was not at all mentioned by any of the Vedas. He is not an aryan God.

Dravidian,Aryan are all tools to divide people.Now our de facto kings namely Kazhagam rulers are deploying such tactics.As usual people are fools to succumb otherwise they will be put into hardship in many ways. As for Phallus & Vagina depiction of Lingam & Yoni,is definitely one interpretation,of the combined forces of nature to progress.I believe that,becoz of tooo much of bhakthi,people stopped having sexual relationship,which extended to other species as well.So,in a subtle doctrination of Kama Deva,such a spectacular lingam-yoni was created in bhu-loka by gods.

sb

trramesh

02-25-2009 07:50 AM

Let us know the FACTS of Chidambaram Temple Issue Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue: 1. This temple is administered by Chidambaram Dhiksitars who are a denomination under Article 26 of the Indian Constitution. Which means Government cannot and SHOULD NOT interfere in their administration. 2. That they are a separate Denomination " more than Srivalli Brahmins" has been established by the Hon'ble Madras High Court in its judgement in 1952. The then Madras Government appealed against this judgement in the Supreme Court but subsequently withdrew the appeal. So the Madras High Court judgement had attained finality. It is now not open to Courts to relook into the Denomination matter. The Chidambaram Natarajar Temple is a denominated temple and its "Denomination" status had been originally conferred by the Court of Law during the British Period in the year 1891 and the same had been confirmed by the Supreme Court of India in the year 1958, asserting that, the micro-minority community of Dikshidars only have the traditional rights over the administration, customs and rituals of the Temple and that the HR & CE department doesn't have the legal sanction to interfere in the affairs of this Temple. 3. The only landed properties of the temple amounting 916 acres were handed over to the Government who appointed a special Tashildar to look after the administration related to the lands and pay the proceeds from the land to the temple administration for their expenses. Only a paltry amount is paid by the Tahsildar every month to cover part of the electricity expenses of this huge temple. 4. The temple functions with a wonderful system of Kattalais. Which means the daily requirements like Pooja materials, including milk, ghee, honey, flowers, rice etc are supplied by the Kattakai people and the materials are used up for the day. Dhikshitars have no control over these Kattalais and they are not involved in the procurement and payment done by Kattalai people. No accounts are kept by Dhikshitars

because no accounts are involved with Dhikshitars. 5. Do the Oduvars sing from the Kanakasabhai? Why should only Brahmins sing from the Kanakasabhai? This is a mischievous propaganda of the atheists and the government headed by a self-proclaimed, yellow-shawl-wearing-atheist, Karunanidhi. Kanakasabhai is the Arthamandapam in Chidambaram Mandir. Kanakasabhai houses the Spatika Lingam of Chandramouleeswara along with Nandi Bhagawan and Rathna Sabhapathi. This place is revered with the same sanctity reserved normally for the Garbha Griha. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. The fact is that NOBODY, NOT BRAHMINS, NOT NON- BRAHMINS are permitted to sing Thevaram or for that matter any Slokas and in any language in the Kanakasabhai. The rights rest only with the Dikshitars to offer the traditional Pujas to the Bhagawan, including singing of the Thevaram from Kanakasabhai. 6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere? The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir. Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control. However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties. 7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter. 8. The HR & CE department has announced that it would spend Rs.5 crores in constructing Parks, toilets, commercial complex, etc. This announcement if allowed to be carried out will cause irreparable damage to the temple. It would only serve the corrupt motives of politicians and ruin the sanctity of the holiest of Siva temples. The HR&CE has not even left constructing a pit ( thotti) to collect the coconut offerings before Pillayar temple. Only then can they give 'contract' to collect the broken coconuts. 9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian. We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt. 10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins.

trramesh Reply to Ravirao Pls note that none of the mismanagement allegations by HR & CE were proved.

02-25-2009 07:54 AM

Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue: 1. This temple is administered by Chidambaram Dhiksitars who are a denomination under Article 26 of the Indian Constitution. Which means Government cannot and SHOULD NOT interfere in their administration. 2. That they are a separate Denomination " more than Srivalli Brahmins" has been established by the Hon'ble Madras High Court in its judgement in 1952. The then Madras Government appealed against this judgement in the Supreme Court but subsequently withdrew the appeal. So the Madras High Court judgement had attained finality. It is now not open to Courts to relook into the Denomination matter. The Chidambaram Natarajar Temple is a denominated temple and its "Denomination" status had been originally conferred by the Court of Law during the British Period in the year 1891 and the same had been confirmed by the Supreme Court of India in the year 1958, asserting that, the micro-minority community of Dikshidars only have the traditional rights over the administration, customs and rituals of the Temple and that the HR & CE department doesn't have the legal sanction to interfere in the affairs of this Temple. 3. The only landed properties of the temple amounting 916 acres were handed over to the Government who appointed a special Tashildar to look after the administration related to the lands and pay the proceeds from the land to the temple administration for their expenses. Only a paltry amount is paid by the Tahsildar every month to cover part of the electricity expenses of this huge temple. 4. The temple functions with a wonderful system of Kattalais. Which means the daily requirements like Pooja materials, including milk, ghee, honey, flowers, rice etc are supplied by the Kattakai people and the materials are used up for the day. Dhikshitars have no control over these Kattalais and they are not involved in the procurement and payment done by Kattalai people. No accounts are kept by Dhikshitars because no accounts are involved with Dhikshitars. 5. Do the Oduvars sing from the Kanakasabhai? Why should only Brahmins sing from the Kanakasabhai? This is a mischievous propaganda of the atheists and the government headed by a self-proclaimed, yellow-shawl-wearing-atheist, Karunanidhi. Kanakasabhai is the Arthamandapam in Chidambaram Mandir. Kanakasabhai houses the Spatika Lingam of Chandramouleeswara along with Nandi Bhagawan and Rathna Sabhapathi. This place is revered with the same sanctity reserved normally for the Garbha Griha. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. The fact is that NOBODY, NOT BRAHMINS, NOT NON- BRAHMINS are permitted to sing Thevaram or for that matter any Slokas and in any language in the Kanakasabhai. The rights rest only with the Dikshitars to offer the traditional Pujas to the Bhagawan, including singing of the Thevaram from Kanakasabhai. 6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere? The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir. Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control. However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties. 7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter.

8. The HR & CE department has announced that it would spend Rs.5 crores in constructing Parks, toilets, commercial complex, etc. This announcement if allowed to be carried out will cause irreparable damage to the temple. It would only serve the corrupt motives of politicians and ruin the sanctity of the holiest of Siva temples. The HR&CE has not even left constructing a pit ( thotti) to collect the coconut offerings before Pillayar temple. Only then can they give 'contract' to collect the broken coconuts. 9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian. We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt. 10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins.

Nacchinarkiniyan

02-25-2009 10:13 AM

Thank you Ravivarao and TR Ramesh for providing excellent information regarding the facts of the case. The question seems to be 1. Whether the Dikshidars can continue to claim their denominational status. The government can always appeal and get a reversal. This is a larger question. 2. The present question is whether the Dikshidars can prove to the satisfaction of the court that the allegation of mismanagement is wrong. To consider this as an attack on Hinduism is wrong. References to Churches and Mosques are irrelevant. When the holiest of the Hindu Shrines, Lord Viswanath temple in Kasi was taken over by the government no one in Tamil Nadu even knew about it. Again no one in Tamil Nadu bothered when the Panduranga (Vittala) temple in Pandharpur was taken over by the Maharashtra government. In the case of the takeover of the Lord Viswanath and Panduranga temple it was not made out to be an attack on Hinduism though BJP was/is strong in both these states. Even when the Dikshidars had fought the cases earlier there was no feeling of an attack on Hinduism. And not much of support from the Tamil Brahmin community. There were no kazhakams in those days. Our sympathies are with the Dikshidar community. We hope they can prove that there was no mismanagement. Correct me if I am wrong. I did understand that the religious part of the administration is still with the Dikshidars.

trramesh

02-25-2009 12:47 PM

Reply to Nachinaarkiniyan 1. The denomination status for Chidambaram Dhikshitars have been confirmed by earlier judgements and legally it is not subject to review now. 2. The allegations were made by HR&CE against the Dhikshitars and it is the onus of the HR& CE to prove its allegations. Dhikshitars who have maintained a perfect record of accounts and valuables were

always willing to prove that they had perfect records and accounts. In fact, there is a periodical inspection of the jewelry by the HR& CE department and certificates are obtained after each inspection. 3. Christian, atheist and non-Hindu people rallying behind Arumuga Swamy and making false allegations against the Dhikshitars and a senior lawyer appearing for Arumuga Swamy who has only a unjustifiable pension of Rs.3000 p.m. from the atheist TN Government prima facie establishes non-Hindu and antiHindu forces' roles in Chidambaram Temple issue. 4. Religious part of Chidamblram Temple is inseparably combined with the administration of the temple. HR & CE dept - has no right or authority to interfere - not only in Chidambaram temple - but also in other temples as to worship and worship related matters. For example, it is not open to HR&CE to give directions as to which date a Kumbabishekam can be performed or in which language Archana can be performed. Keeping a Hundi or constructing commercial complexes or toilets is a blatant violation of religious practices in Chidambaram.

ravivararo

03-14-2009 01:27 PM

Reply to Mr.Ramesh For the question 1. The denomination status for Chidambaram Dhikshitars have been confirmed by earlier judgements and legally it is not subject to review now. Though the said judgment is confirmed by lower courts, it is against the present SC views. it is non est factum in the eye of law. At any point of Time the same can be questioned and invalidated. For the question no 2, No proof or evidence was produced before the High court by those Dixits stating that the accounts were beyond doubt. For question no.4 Keeping a Hundi or constructing commercial complexes or toilets is a blatant violation of religious practices in Chidambaram are not religious act and even not specified in Vedas/agamas. The Temple was built by Kothanars, Sithals, silpi/sirpi who were all not aryans but ? and with the financial aids of Kings. no proof is available with dixits that the temple was built by themselves.

trramesh

03-14-2009 01:56 PM

Reply to Ravirao 1. It is good to see you quote legal terms though incorrectly. 'Non est factum' pertains to agreements. This is a constitutional matter which cannot be overturned by a single judge of High Court. 2. My earlier point 2. holds good. It is the onus of the accuser to prove that the accounts are not well maintained. It is well known that HR & CE has not been able to prove a single allegation. 3. You have chosen not to reply to my third point. Maybe you are one of the atheist and anti-Hindu persons who are against this holy temple and its traditions. 4. Hundi is a modern practice and as you yourself have put it, there is no mention of it in the vedas and agamas. That is why Dhikshitars do not want a hundi which is against traditions. 5. If you get a house constructed you do not give the management of the house to sithals and kothanars. Perhaps you do. The kothanars or sithals who built the Parliament or Secretariat are / were not ruling this country. Strange indeed is your logic. There is also no proof that Kings or Chiefs established this temple. They might have only expanded it and did other charities. That does not make them the administrators of the temple. Even Rajaraja Chola, when he got to know that the Tevaram song palmleafs were in a particular chamber in the

Chidambaram Temple, he could only request the Dikshitars and did not order them. 6. If you hate brahmins, you need not show it in this website.

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 02:48 PM

Wonderful background info and the legal status quo of the issue by trramesh... thanks

ravivararo

03-14-2009 03:04 PM

Reply to ramesh Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue: 1. This temple is administered by Chidambaram Dhiksitars who are a denomination under Article 26 of the Indian Constitution. Which means Government cannot and SHOULD NOT interfere in their administration. The Supreme court has held in M.S.V. RAJA & ANR V. SEENI THEVAR & ORS [2001] RDSC 388 (14 August 2001 that State of Madras and Another [(1981) 1 SCC 445] referring to the very provisions of the Act has held that so far as Tamil Nadu is concerned there is initial presumption that a temple is a public one, it being up to the party, who claims that it is a private temple, to establish that fact affirmatively. Of course, this initial presumption must be rebutted by clinching testimony in order to establish that a temple is a private temple. In the same judgment the very situation of temple on Government property was also taken as a piece of evidence in support of a public temple. In the case on hand, as already stated above, there was neither pleading nor clinching evidence as to who founded the temple and as to how the temple belonged to the appellants. It is also on record that the temple was constructed on paramokh land. Under the circumstances, it is clear that the appellants have failed to establish that the denomination of Rajus constructed the temple. Thus, when both the courts below concurrently erred in recording a finding with no evidence to support that the suit temple belonged to religious denomination of Rajus and not a public temple, the High Court was right in upsetting such finding. In our view the appellants have miserably failed to rebut the initial presumption that it is a public temple. Hence we agree with the High Court in recording a finding that the suit temple is a public temple as in the verdict.

2. That they are a separate Denomination " more than Srivalli Brahmins" has been established by the Hon'ble Madras High Court in its judgement in 1952. The then Madras Government appealed against this judgement in the Supreme Court but subsequently withdrew the appeal. So the Madras High Court judgement had attained finality. It is now not open to Courts to relook into the Denomination matter. The honourable Supreme court however can relook the denomination capacity. The Chidambaram Natarajar Temple is a denominated temple and its "Denomination" status had been originally conferred by the Court of Law during the British Period in the year 1891 and the same had been confirmed by the Supreme Court of India in the year 1958, asserting that, the micro-minority community of Dikshidars only have the traditional rights over the administration, customs and rituals of the Temple and that the HR & CE department doesn't have

the legal sanction to interfere in the affairs of this Temple. The same court has held that It is settled position in law, having regard to the various decisions of this Court that the words "religious denomination" take their colour from the word `religion'. The expression "religious denomination" must satisfy three requirements – (1) it must be collection of individuals who have a system of belief or doctrine which they regard as conducive to their spiritual wellbeing, i.e., a common faith; (2) a common organisation; and (3) designation of a distinctive name. It necessarily follows that the common faith of the community should be based on religion and in that they should have common religious tenets and the basic cord which connects them, should be religion and not merely considerations of caste or community or societal status. (NALLOR MARTHANDAM VELLALAR & ORS V. THE COMMISSIONER, HINDU RELIGIONS AND CHARITABLE ENDOWMENT [2003] INSC 328 (30 July 2003) http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/di...%20of%20temple) The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature in STATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html). 3. The only landed properties of the temple amounting 916 acres were handed over to the Government who appointed a special Tashildar to look after the administration related to the lands and pay the proceeds from the land to the temple administration for their expenses. Only a paltry amount is paid by the Tahsildar every month to cover part of the electricity expenses of this huge temple. The same had to be appealed before the HR & CE and TN Government. 4. The temple functions with a wonderful system of Kattalais. Which means the daily requirements like Pooja materials, including milk, ghee, honey, flowers, rice etc are supplied by the Kattakai people and the materials are used up for the day. Dhikshitars have no control over these Kattalais and they are not involved in the procurement and payment done by Kattalai people. No accounts are kept by Dhikshitars because no accounts are involved with Dhikshitars. The question is not about the Kattalai but the properties of our Lord Sivan who is mentioned in the Indus scripts and not in Vedas.

ravivararo

03-14-2009 03:05 PM

5. Do the Oduvars sing from the Kanakasabhai? Why should only Brahmins sing from the Kanakasabhai? This is a mischievous propaganda of the atheists and the government headed by a self-proclaimed, yellow-shawl-wearing-atheist, Karunanidhi. Kanakasabhai is the Arthamandapam in Chidambaram Mandir. Kanakasabhai houses the Spatika

Lingam of Chandramouleeswara along with Nandi Bhagawan and Rathna Sabhapathi. This place is revered with the same sanctity reserved normally for the Garbha Griha. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. The fact is that NOBODY, NOT BRAHMINS, NOT NON- BRAHMINS are permitted to sing Thevaram or for that matter any Slokas and in any language in the Kanakasabhai. The rights rest only with the Dikshitars to offer the traditional Pujas to the Bhagawan, including singing of the Thevaram from Kanakasabhai. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. Who has permit them to do so. This is an Untouchability not only towards people but also language Tamil which was evolved from Lord Sivans Damarukam. Offence against Lord Siva. The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html)

King Rajaraja I (985 - 1013 C.E.), the most illustrious member of the Chola line of kings had in his early years been enraptured by the chantings of the Saiva hymns of the four grandmasters. The more he listened the more his ardour grew to hear more of them. But to his dismay he heard that they were all lost, except those few that lingered on in the memories of the ritual singers in the temples. The fact was that these hymns had been taken down on palm leaves as and when they were composed. But during a period of political stress they were got together for safety and deposited in one of the rooms of the Chidambaram temple. All memories of this were lost. Rajaraja hearing of the miraculous powers of a young temple priest of the land, turned to him for help. The King was told by the priest that the collections were in a room at the back of the Golden Hall of Nataraja in the Chidambaram temple. Rajaraja's delight knew no bounds. He applied to the Dikshidars, the priests and managers of the Chidambaram temple. Their answer was disquieting because they required the very grandmasters who set their seals on the rooms to come and open it. The chola king outwitted them by bringing to that very door, with great festivities, golden icons of the four grandmasters. The door was forthwith opened. But to their disappointment they found nothing but anthills over the heap of palm-leaves. Termites had eaten away a good portion of the palm leaves. Rajaraja fell into despair but was soon comforted by a divine voice that announced that all was not lost and those that were needed for the time had been saved. With a sigh of relief, the King got oil poured over the heap of

ruins and leaf after leaf as were found whole, picked and treasured and copied down. What was thus recovered was probably 384 out of a supposed 10000 hymns of Sambandar, 312 out of 49000 of Appar, 100 out of 37000 of Sundarar. These are the Tevaram hymns as they are known now. Rajaraja thus made a great contribution to the growth of Tamil literature. From that time onwards these hymns are being sung in all Siva temples of Tamil origin by professionals trained for this purpose under benefactions made by successive generations of kings and philanthropists. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/WOVpage11.html) These then Dixits mismanaged the Tevaram at that time by kepting this Tevaram in the dumpyard as rubbish. Only because of King Rajaraja, it was protected. 6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere? The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir. Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control. However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties. Who has prevented them to recite manthras in mindiram. It is not the religious activities but the property management that was taken over by the Government. It is stated in the STATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html), that The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature

ravivararo

03-14-2009 03:09 PM

reply to Mr.Ramesh 7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter. God is everywhere and anywhere prarthana can be made and the place is prarthana sthalam. There is no such restriction. Even in deathbed, it is a prarthana sthala where people usually call lord Siva as sankara sankara. 8. The HR & CE department has announced that it would spend Rs.5 crores in constructing Parks, toilets, commercial complex, etc. This announcement if allowed to be carried out will cause irreparable damage to the temple. It would only serve the corrupt motives of politicians and ruin the sanctity of the holiest of Siva temples. The HR&CE has not even left constructing a pit ( thotti) to collect the coconut offerings before Pillayar temple. Only then can they give 'contract' to

collect the broken coconuts. The money is belongs to Government and it is public and not private money. It is utilised for the devoties' benefit. Sidharu Kayai yar Swaha Seyya Vendum? 9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian.We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt. Most of the Tamil people who are Hindus are welcoming this and Lord Siva will perform Ananda Thandava for this verdict as it is victory for Tamil and Tamilian and all Hindus. 10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins. Even for the sake of argument that the above allegation is right, Lord Siva has given mukti to Nandanar who is sudra and who has refused to /has not serve brahmins. The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html) Lord Siva never said to serve Dixits. It is false story. The meaning of Dwijanma is false theory. It is actually a transliteration of Tamil word Irupirappalargal. In Tamil, the word Iru not only means the numerical 2 but Great, spacious, vast;.

See 1. இரைை irumai : (page 333) not listening to others; தானாகவம

அறியாத பிறர அறிவிககவம

அறியாத மடத தனம. Colloq. இரைை¹ irumai

, n. 1. Greatness, largeness, hugeness, eminence; ெபரைை. (ெதால. ெொால. 396, உைை.) 2. Blackness; கரைை. (ொீ வக. 1171.) http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...t&display=utf8

இர ² iru , adj. < இர-ைை. 1. Great, spacious, vast; ெபரய. ைாயிர

ஞாலம (கறள, 999). 2. Black;

கரய. இரைலரக கவைை யணகண (ொீவக. 1171). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/phi...1:869.tamillex

the meaning of Irupirappalar means those whose birth is great and not the meaning of 2nd time born. Nobody can born twice. The Sanskrit adhimedhavis transliterated the Tamil Word irupirappalargal as Dwi + Janma. Lord Siva said to serve those whose birth is nobile and great and not a particular community.

ravivararo

03-14-2009 04:08 PM

"Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras." (Manu IV. 61). is this manu rule breached in the State of Uttar Pradesh. Then where why will/could dwell.?

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18544) "Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras." (Manu IV. 61). is this manu rule breached in the State of Uttar Pradesh. Then where why will/could dwell.?

The other name for "shudra" is "ignorant"... not all jathi brahmins are brahma-gnyanis and not all jathi shudras are ignorants... this has been the case from time immemorial... The days of Manu are not anymore now... there is a phenomenal change in the lifestyle of all the varnas... even though varna-sankara was prevalent in the times of yore, it is more now... spirituality has given way to ego-gratification and gross materialisation... neither is there a full fledged varna-dharma being followed, even in Bharatham... so, in effect, India itself is a sort of mleccha-desham, but by virtue of its inherent spiritual characteristics, it is still a karmabhoomi... forget UP, MP,TN, Assam etc... these are all divides done for administrative convenience... tomorrow, if public demands, a futher divide of UP may also be done... The chord of spirituality runs through the entire length and breadth of our country... and hence a brahmin can dwell anywhere within it... In fact, if a living cannot be eked out, by a brahmin, through teaching the vedas, he may engage in commerce, business and such other trading business that would ensure a livlihood... and he can reside in such a place where such livlihood can be carried out, provided, the country is not a realm which could cause potential damage to his life/faith/practices or beliefs...

ravivararo

03-14-2009 05:01 PM

@ Ramesh You have chosen not to reply to my third point. Maybe you are one of the atheist and anti-Hindu persons who are against this holy temple and its traditions.

I am Hindu by birth and not Tamilian. i am a slave of Lord Siva. பறறக பறறறறான பறறிைை அபபறைறப பறறக பறற விடறக I am not a dravidian party activist. i am humanist and concerns sometimes for animals too. i Love my Lord Siva, Tamil, equity, judiciary and nothing else. .

வலியாரமன தனைன நிைனககதான தனனின ெைலியாரேைல ெொலலம இடதத Think how you feel before the strong When to the feeble you do wrong

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ravivararo

03-14-2009 05:30 PM

Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.5:1:4954.apte3 शूदः śūdrḥ शूदः [शुच्-रक् पृषो ˚ चसय दः दीघघः Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four principal tribes of the Hindus; he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; पदभया

शूदो अजायत Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman;

Ms.1.87; and his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; एकमेव

एतेषामेव वणाना शुशुषामनसूयया ॥ Ms.1.9. -Comp. ceremonies or observances of a Śūdra. the duties of a Śūdra. -

,-

शूदहा चरेत् Ms.11.13. become a servant to a Śūdra. -

the Priyaṅgu plant. -

the daily

water polluted by the touch of a Śūdra. -

a. 1 killing a Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra; एतदेव an onion. -

वरत क

,-

ं

ृतसनषंणमासान्

a man of any of the three higher castes who has

a. consisting mostly of Śūdra; यदाषटं

one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a Śūdra. -

शूदराजये िनवसेत् Ms.4.61. -

तु शूदसय पभुः कमघ समािदशत् ।

the Śūdra or servile class. -

शूदभूियषम् (िवनशयित) Ms.8.22.

a country of which a Śūdra is a king; न the occupation of a Śūdra;

वैशयो$जीवन् सवधमेण शूदवृततयािप वतघयेत् Ms.1.98, -- 1564 --

1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras.

the touch of a Śūdra; असवगया Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra; Ms.11.69.

हाहिुतः सा सयाचछू दसंसपशघदिूषता Ms.5.14. -

serving a

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?query=sudra&display=utf8&table=macdone ll शूद (p. 317) [ sûdrá ] m. man of the fourth or servile class: -ka,m. N. of a king, the reputed au thor of the Mrikkhakatikâ; N. of a soldier; -gana,m. Sûdra; -ganman,a. descended from a Sûdra; m. Sûdra; -tâ, f., -tva,n. condition of a Sûdra; -dharma,m. duty of a Sûdra; -yâgaka,a. sacrificing for a Sûdra. शूदा (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a½artha-yâgaka, a. sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ. Thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18545) The other name for "shudra" is "ignorant"... not all jathi brahmins are brahma-gnyanis and not all jathi shudras are ignorants... this has been the case from time immemorial...

The days of Manu are not anymore now... there is a phenomenal change in the lifestyle of all the varnas... even though varna-sankara was prevalent in the times of yore, it is more now... spirituality has given way to ego-gratification and gross materialisation... neither is there a full fledged varnadharma being followed, even in Bharatham... so, in effect, India itself is a sort of mleccha-desham, but by virtue of its inherent spiritual characteristics, it is still a karmabhoomi... forget UP, MP,TN, Assam etc... these are all divides done for administrative convenience... tomorrow, if public demands, a futher divide of UP may also be done... The chord of spirituality runs through the entire length and breadth of our country... and hence a brahmin can dwell anywhere within it... In fact, if a living cannot be eked out, by a brahmin, through teaching the vedas, he may engage in commerce, business and such other trading business that would ensure a livlihood... and he can reside in such a place where such livlihood can be carried out, provided, the country is not a realm which could cause potential damage to his life/faith/practices or beliefs...

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 05:32 PM

My replies in blue: Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18543) God is everywhere and anywhere prarthana can be made and the place is prarthana sthalam. There is no such restriction. Even in deathbed, it is a prarthana sthala where people usually call lord Siva as sankara sankara. "Prarthana sthalam" is for people who believe in a certain norm for worshipping... and hence, it has a definite meaning associated ie., a specific place where one worships god... then again, there are those who see god in everone/everything... but again, such persons need not be concerned about temples, for he need not be ruffled by such petty issues... To trramesh - Is there any reason behind your statement that a votive shrine is not a prarthana sthala?? 8. The HR & CE department has announced that it would spend Rs.5 crores in constructing Parks, toilets, commercial complex, etc. This announcement if allowed to be carried out will cause irreparable damage to the temple. It would only serve the corrupt motives of politicians and ruin the sanctity of the holiest of Siva temples. The HR&CE has not even left constructing a pit ( thotti) to collect the coconut offerings before Pillayar temple. Only then can they give 'contract' to collect the broken coconuts. The money is belongs to Government and it is public and not private money. It is utilised for the devoties' benefit. Sidharu Kayai yar Swaha Seyya Vendum? Recently, TTD has renovated mel Thirupathi by removing all the commercial establishments there, thus making it a place where one seeks god and not for any other engagements... Thus the money should be used in accordance with the agamic rules... and also for the welfare of those who manage the ritualistic routines... 9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single

Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian.We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt. Most of the Tamil people who are Hindus are welcoming this and Lord Siva will perform Ananda Thandava for this verdict as it is victory for Tamil and Tamilian and all Hindus. I am surprised that Shiva would do thandavam for a mere rivalry of egos and vendetta done by rabid politicians and anti-hindus... again I doubt that he will discount his hindi speaking or marathi speaking or kannada speaking devotees for the sake of tamil... Those who protest against the govt's actions are also hindus; therefore it is a fallacy to use the term "all hindus" here 10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins. Even for the sake of argument that the above allegation is right, Lord Siva has given mukti to Nandanar who is sudra and who has refused to /has not serve brahmins. The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html) Lord Siva never said to serve Dixits. It is false story. The meaning of Dwijanma is false theory. It is actually a transliteration of Tamil word Irupirappalargal. In Tamil, the word Iru not only means the numerical 2 but Great, spacious, vast;. Things do not become false or true just because you say so... Everything did not spring from tamil... so your primary inference itself is wrong... To the second part - nobody's birth is great... how can that be? It is only through his learning, perseverance, conduct, way of living and zest for the higher truth that one becomes great... the second birth is when he becomes ready to tread the path of highest enlightenment and is initiated for the process... There are various differing interpretations of "Dwija"...

See 1. இரைை irumai : (page 333) not listening to others; தானாகவம

அறியாத பிறர அறிவிககவம

அறியாத மடத தனம. Colloq. இரைை¹ irumai , n. 1. Greatness, largeness, hugeness, eminence; ெபரைை. (ெதால. ெொால. 396,

உைை.) 2. Blackness; கரைை. (ொீவக. 1171.) http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...t&display=utf8

இர ² iru , adj. < இர-ைை. 1. Great, spacious, vast; ெபரய. ைாயிர

ஞாலம (கறள, 999). 2. Black;

கரய. இரைலரக கவைை யணகண (ொீவக. 1171). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/phi...1:869.tamillex

the meaning of Irupirappalar means those whose birth is great and not the meaning of 2nd time born. Nobody can born twice. The Sanskrit adhimedhavis transliterated the Tamil Word irupirappalargal as Dwi + Janma. Lord Siva said to serve those whose birth is nobile and great and not a particular community.

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18547) Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.5:1:4954.apte3 śūdrḥ [

-

˚

Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four

principal tribes of the Hindus; he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman; Ms.1.87; and his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; Ms.1.9. -Comp. -

the Priyaṅgu plant.

Śūdra. -

the daily ceremonies or observances of a Śūdra. ,-

the duties of a Śūdra. -

,-

water polluted by the touch of a a. 1 killing a Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra;

Ms.11.13. -

an onion. -

man of any of the three higher castes who has become a servant to a Śūdra. Śūdra; Śūdra. -

(

) Ms.8.22. -

a. consisting mostly of one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a

a country of which a Śūdra is a king;

Śūdra or servile class. -

Ms.4.61. -

the occupation of a Śūdra;

a

the

$

Ms.1.98, -- 1564 --

1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras. the touch of a Śūdra; Ms.5.14. -

serving a Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra;

Ms.11.69.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/romadict.pl?query=sudra&display=utf8&table=macdone ll (p. 317) [ sûdrá ] m. man of the fourth or servile class: -ka,m. N. of a king, the reputed au thor of the Mrikkhakatikâ; N. of a soldier; -gana,m. Sûdra; -ganman,a. descended from a Sûdra; m. Sûdra; -tâ, f., -tva,n. condition of a Sûdra; -dharma,m. duty of a Sûdra; -yâgaka,a. sacrificing for a Sûdra. (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a½arthayâgaka, a. sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ. Thank you

Your message is too cluttered... please would you mind rephrasing your query clearly and address it directly and not from any references? Thanks

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 05:45 PM

I infer that you are asking me to say where the term shudra refers to ignorance... 1. In the famous dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira, Yudhishtira responds thus (am paraphrasing here) to the question "Who is a brahmana" "One who is patient, good of conduct and behaviour, sattvic, enlightened... is a brahmana" Thus the classification which Yudhishtira uses here is knowledge and good conduct (knowledge here refers to knowledge of the spiritual)... thus as we proceed down the ladder, we find that shudras are

the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge) 2. "Janmana jayathe Shudra, Karmana jayathe Dwija"... by birth all are shudras (meaning that there is ignorance or avidhya)... only by karma (recognized due to vidhya or knowledge), one becomes a Dwija...

s007bala

03-14-2009 06:17 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18551) I infer that you are asking me to say where the term shudra refers to ignorance... 1. In the famous dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira, Yudhishtira responds thus (am paraphrasing here) to the question "Who is a brahmana" "One who is patient, good of conduct and behaviour, sattvic, enlightened... is a brahmana" Thus the classification which Yudhishtira uses here is knowledge and good conduct (knowledge here refers to knowledge of the spiritual)... thus as we proceed down the ladder, we find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge) 2. "Janmana jayathe Shudra, Karmana jayathe Dwija"... by birth all are shudras (meaning that there is ignorance or avidhya)... only by karma (recognized due to vidhya or knowledge), one becomes a Dwija...

SS Exactly correct.Therefore all the the four personality traits is in-born in a individual all over the world,and by virtue of characterstics displayed naturally by a human being,automatically defines him as brahmana,kshatriya,vaishya,shudra.There is nothing superior or inferior in any job a individual does.There is pride in all the four jobs.But society ie human nature is such,people misbehave on account of ahamkaram or ego.The four colors given to us White=brahmana;Red=Kshatriya;Yellow=Vaishyas;Black =shudra.Again these awere classified to administer easily,which is prevailing in every part of the globe,world over with a different nomenclature. With reference to the topic,we can have two views about it.Whatever the ruler does,it will be for the larger interest of the whole community.The other view is,to hold on to smapradayas,traditons etc and fight for your established tradition.More often than not,people like change.:peep: sb

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-14-2009 06:41 PM

sb, methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards...

The other group are the brahmanas by virtue of enlightenment... there is no jathi, no group, sub-group etc kinda differentiation here... in our scriptures, we have to be careful to understand where it talks about jathi-brahmanas and where it talks about brahma-gnyanis... As a converse of the above reasoning, it means that there were jathi- kshatriyas, jathi-vaishyas and jathi-shudras... this sort of classification, as you rightly put it exists in all countries under different names (look for example Nehru -> Indira -> Rajiv -> Sonia ->Rahul/Priyanka... even in such a modern setup we still find such examples...) but there was enough intermingling and interchanging of occupations in the olden days due to various circumstances... which is quite true even now... The whole issue of HR&CE taking over the administration etc of hindu temples seems quite hollow... the "on-paper" motive may be for social justice and better administration, in practice, it is clearly used for anti-brahmin movements...

s007bala

03-14-2009 06:45 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18560) sb, methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards... The other group are the brahmanas by virtue of enlightenment... there is no jathi, no group, subgroup etc kinda differentiation here... in our scriptures, we have to be careful to understand where it talks about jathi-brahmanas and where it talks about brahma-gnyanis... As a converse of the above reasoning, it means that there were jathi- kshatriyas, jathi-vaishyas and jathi-shudras... this sort of classification, as you rightly put it exists in all countries under different names (look for example Nehru -> Indira -> Rajiv -> Sonia ->Rahul/Priyanka... even in such a modern setup we still find such examples...) but there was enough intermingling and interchanging of occupations in the olden days due to various circumstances... which is quite true even now... The whole issue of HR&CE taking over the administration etc of hindu temples seems quite hollow... the "on-paper" motive may be for social justice and better administration, in practice, it is clearly used for anti-brahmin movements...

Axe Party Thondannukku Vetri!:bowl: sb

s007bala

03-14-2009 09:59 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18547) Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.5:1:4954.apte3 śūdrḥ [

-

Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four

˚

principal tribes of the Hindus; he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman; Ms.1.87; and his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; the Priyaṅgu plant.

Ms.1.9. -Comp. Śūdra. -

the daily ceremonies or observances of a Śūdra. ,-

the duties of a Śūdra. -

,-

water polluted by the touch of a a. 1 killing a Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra;

Ms.11.13. -

an onion. -

man of any of the three higher castes who has become a servant to a Śūdra. Śūdra; Śūdra. -

(

) Ms.8.22. -

a. consisting mostly of one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a

a country of which a Śūdra is a king;

Śūdra or servile class. -

Ms.4.61. -

the occupation of a Śūdra;

a

the

$

Ms.1.98, -- 1564 --

1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras. the touch of a Śūdra; Ms.5.14. -

serving a Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra;

Ms.11.69.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/romadict.pl?query=sudra&display=utf8&table=macdone ll (p. 317) [ sûdrá ] m. man of the fourth or servile class: -ka,m. N. of a king, the reputed au thor of the Mrikkhakatikâ; N. of a soldier; -gana,m. Sûdra; -ganman,a. descended from a Sûdra; m. Sûdra; -tâ, f., -tva,n. condition of a Sûdra; -dharma,m. duty of a Sûdra; -yâgaka,a. sacrificing for a Sûdra. (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a½arthayâgaka, a. sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ. Thank you

Ravi Brahmana Kshatriya Vaishya Shudra are all personality traits in every human being existing all

over the world,from time immemorial.To quote Manu out of context is ,incorrect.While we should not go by the literal translation of the word with present living generation. What Kazhagam leaders have acheived in TN,is no mean acheivement.Only when chaos exist,then Kazhagam leaders can intervene and act their jurisprudence over the mass.Not all the people are educated by going to colleges and earning degree.What degree has any Kazhagam leader of the past generation earned?How is it,dynastic succession of political grooming is happening?Why then Dikshitars are targetted? The British used us before and now we ourselves are using ourselves to such tactics deployed.Now Christains are inspired by Christ and do have endless amount of resources available,only becoz the majority of population in the world are Christians.So,India is a the target now,to create chaos and make the country retard in growing economic progress. Unknowingly or knowingly Kazhagam leaders are playing into the hands of traitors of India. sb:usa2:

ravivararo

03-16-2009 12:34 PM

:doh: We find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge) The reason for jathi sudras were made fools (which has to be as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira) is the manusmrithi only and jathi Brahmins who acted upon the followings. A Shudra is unfit of receive education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81) He must never read the Vedas in the presence of the Shudras. (Manu IV. 99.) If a Shudra arrogantly presumes to preach religion to Brahmins, the king shall have poured burning oil in his mouth and ears. Manu VIII. 272.) Bhagvadgita XII. 4. If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces. Therefore jathi Sudras were made always sudra (fool) by birth and profession by the so called wise people(?) as per instructions given by Manusmrithi. cruel intention. I do not agree with the view that " methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards..." As per Manu code, that view is so contrary. A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII.20.)Emphasises given. The reason for claiming Lord Siva's properties in Chidambaram, i think, is due to the

manusmrithi's verdict that No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation. This is one of the inexorable laws of Manu. says Manu. (Manu VIII. 417) (ManuVIII417 & X129) Because lord Siva is named as God of Kapaali Matham or chandala Matham. He is god for Chandala and Aghori. Since Lord Siva is named for Mayanatheivam (Smasana Deva) and god for aghoris (who eat corpes), he has to be inferred as God for chandala (kapaaleeswara) but worshipped by all the people irrespective of their caste. He is universal God for all people irrespective of their birth or profession. But his Darsan was prevented to Nandanar on the score of birth. Since Lord Siva is having no father and mother, he is anaadhi. Therefore he should be neither Ekajanmi nor Dwijanmi.He is described as wearing upaweetham (Dwijanma character), though his profession is destruction and God for Chandala and aghoris (Ekajanma Character-Sudra). Therefore he should be inferred as neither a sudra (fool) nor a brilliant as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira. If Mr.Nandanar is Sudra (fool), who was prevented by then Wise Thillai Moovayirathavar to have Siva Darsan, Lord Siva had to be a Sudra as he permitted him and gave moksha. He breached the code of Manusmrithi. Whether Lord Siva will be punished as per Manusmrithi or not for giving Moksha to Nandanar? I do not think so. He is such a brilliant as he has his highest abode in Kailasam in Himalayan range, instead of Chidambaram. Or otherwise, the Himalayan Mountain range would be claimed as private property built by themselves.

பறபொொொககம எலலொ உயரககம சறபொொொவவொ ொெயொொொழல ேவறறைை யொன. Meaning: All lives are equal by birth; their glory differs only due to their choice of occupation.

யாெெெ ெெனனஞ ெெரககறபபான வாோொரக கயரநெ உலகம பகம. ( கறள எண : 346 ) ம . வ : உடமைப யான எெக கரெலம ெொடரப இலலாெ ெபாரைை எெத எெககரெலமாகய மயககதைெ ோபாகககனறவன, ோெவரககம எடடாெ உயரநெ நைல அைடவான.

happyhindu

03-16-2009 02:43 PM

these are the troubles, travails of interpolation...sad state of affairs.

s007bala

03-16-2009 05:02 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18576) :doh: We find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge) The reason for jathi sudras were made fools (which has to be as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira) is the manusmrithi only and jathi Brahmins who acted upon the

followings. A Shudra is unfit of receive education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81) He must never read the Vedas in the presence of the Shudras. (Manu IV. 99.) If a Shudra arrogantly presumes to preach religion to Brahmins, the king shall have poured burning oil in his mouth and ears. Manu VIII. 272.) Bhagvadgita XII. 4. If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces. Therefore jathi Sudras were made always sudra (fool) by birth and profession by the so called wise people(?) as per instructions given by Manusmrithi. cruel intention. I do not agree with the view that " methinks that there are two lines of brahmins one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards..." As per Manu code, that view is so contrary. A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII.20.)Emphasises given. The reason for claiming Lord Siva's properties in Chidambaram, i think, is due to the manusmrithi's verdict that No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation. This is one of the inexorable laws of Manu. says Manu. (Manu VIII. 417) (ManuVIII-417 & X129) Because lord Siva is named as God of Kapaali Matham or chandala Matham. He is god for Chandala and Aghori. Since Lord Siva is named for Mayanatheivam (Smasana Deva) and god for aghoris (who eat corpes), he has to be inferred as God for chandala (kapaaleeswara) but worshipped by all the people irrespective of their caste. He is universal God for all people irrespective of their birth or profession. But his Darsan was prevented to Nandanar on the score of birth. Since Lord Siva is having no father and mother, he is anaadhi. Therefore he should be neither Ekajanmi nor Dwijanmi.He is described as wearing upaweetham (Dwijanma character), though his profession is destruction and God for Chandala and aghoris (Ekajanma Character-Sudra). Therefore he should be inferred as neither a sudra (fool) nor a brilliant as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira. If Mr.Nandanar is Sudra (fool), who was prevented by then Wise Thillai Moovayirathavar to have Siva Darsan, Lord Siva had to be a Sudra as he permitted him and gave moksha. He breached the code of Manusmrithi. Whether Lord Siva will be punished as per Manusmrithi or not for giving Moksha to Nandanar?

I do not think so. He is such a brilliant as he has his highest abode in Kailasam in Himalayan range, instead of Chidambaram. Or otherwise, the Himalayan Mountain range would be claimed as private property built by themselves.

பறபொொொககம எலலொ உயரககம சறபொொொவவொ ொெயொொொழல ேவறறைை யொன.

Meaning: All lives are equal by birth; their glory differs only due to their choice of occupation.

யாெெெ ெெனனஞ ெெரககறபபான வாோொரக கயரநெ உலகம பகம. ( கறள எண : 346 ) ம . வ : உடமைப யான எெக கரெலம ெொடரப இலலாெ ெபாரைை எெத எெககரெலமாகய மயககதைெ ோபாகககனறவன, ோெவரககம எடடாெ உயரநெ நைல அைடவான. ravi there are plenty of books in samskritam ,tamil...etc.It all depends upon which book you want to choose.There was nothing preventing the Tamizh rulers to use Tamizh 'noolgal' to administer a way of life,but yet listened to people of brahmana culture.To quote out of context from manu is not a clever thing to do.In the same Manu,there are N-number of verses which speaks differently.Brahmins constituted only less 3% in the past and now its less than 3% now.How is it possible for a minority to hold sway over the mass population.After 1947 ,what prevented Tamizh leaders to teach only Tamizh,barring english,hindi?in TN? Thirukkkural could have been made the only 'book' to follow?or silapathikaram,manimeghalai,.....etc.So,for you to pull of Manu,is like pulling up Dr.M.G.Ramachandran,Dr.M.Karunanidhi,Dr.J.Jayalali thaa...etc are these doctrates from any world college,but becoz how they shaped TN with their sense of propriety,they earned this title and above all won the place in peoples heart. But,chidambaram temple issue,is getting complicated as the days goes by,which will instill the seeds of revolt sooner or later on the majority religion prevailing killing all political leaders.When the mobocrazy raises,then politicians will run like,thunda kaanum thuniya kannum.Then minority religions people will also be killed which christians,muslims,jains,sikhs,buddhists....etc. sb:doh:

ravivararo

03-16-2009 05:15 PM

:flypig: VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra. I think Veda Vyasa codified the Veda before the codification of Manusmrithi. or otherwise, his will be punished for that. he escapped. Thanks to previous British Government's new laws. or otherwise Bharath will be populated with deafs and dumbs.

s007bala

03-16-2009 05:30 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18582) :flypig: VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra. I think Veda Vyasa codified the Veda before the codification of Manusmrithi. or otherwise, his will be punished for that. he escapped. Thanks to previous British Government's new laws. or otherwise Bharath will be populated with deafs and dumbs.

Even before British stepped on the shores of Bharatham,in which baharatham included the geographical lands of Egypt,Israel,Mecca,Medina,Russian Territories,Chinesse Territories,Far East...North Pole...etc Sanathana Dharma prevailed over. There are plus and minus of British laws.Bharatham should resort to its own cultural laws(Panchayathi Raj) adapting it to the present prevailing situation.Look at the Judicial System in India as a whole and in particular TN.Look at the number of backlogs of pending cases.Look at the corruption of the courts.Justice is blind in India,why?becoz you are using a system which was invented by englishman for his english people.Now the natives are aping it and have become apes in the bargain. sb

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-16-2009 06:14 PM

Quote:

The reason for jathi sudras were made fools (which has to be as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira) is the manusmrithi only and jathi Brahmins who acted upon the followings.

Perhaps you misunderstood it? Re-read my post again to understand it... seems that you have a negative fixation on manusmriti... Quote:

I do not agree with the view that " methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards..." As per Manu code, that view is so contrary.

You need not agree... similarly, your views are not universal and neither are they capable of divining the past... based on the current (interpolation, as hh puts it)...

You conveniently use the term jathi brahmanas... yes, there are jathi brahmanas and they are carrying out a tradition... why do you want to interfere with that? If you are so sure of the supreme shiva, you can always worship him without a temple... it is not necessary to disturb a tradition to prove a point... The reason why this issue is raised is: 1) Vendetta against the jathi brahmins, out of pure jealousy... 2) Covert actions against our dharma and culture by papal and islamic spearheads... If there is a tradition in rome, nobody wishes to change it just to prove that all are equal... rather they respect it... here, in this temple issue, the motive is one of revenge born out of hatred... there is no devotion involved here... Quote:

I do not think so. He is such a brilliant as he has his highest abode in Kailasam in Himalayan range, instead of Chidambaram. Or otherwise, the Himalayan Mountain range would be claimed as private property built by themselves.

Tenzing and Edmund did not see anybody on everest... the numerous expeditions in the himalayan holy places also do not see anybody who calls shiva there...

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-16-2009 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18582) :flypig: VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra. I think Veda Vyasa codified the Veda before the codification of Manusmrithi. or otherwise, his will be punished for that. he escapped. Thanks to previous British Government's new laws. or otherwise Bharath will be populated with deafs and dumbs.

Vishnu Sahasranamam: "vyAsAya vishNu-rUpAya vyAsa-rUpAya vishNave namo vai Brahma-nidhaye vAsishtAya namo namaH" My repeated salutations to vyAsa who is a form of vishNu and to vishNu who is a form of vyAsasage vyAsa, who is a descendent of vasishta and who is a treasure of brahman, (i.e. vedas). "Athri, Bhrigu, Kuthsa, Vashishta, Gautama, Kashyapa, Angeerasa"... are the sapta rishis... And not nilly-willy characters thought of by a questionable identity in kali-yuga...

ravivararo

03-16-2009 06:26 PM

If Lord Siva is in favour of Dikshidars, then he would intructed the judges in their dream as he instructed thillai moovayirathavar to allow Nandanar inside the Temple. But Lord Siva is not in their favour. Therefore he did not instructed so. And Further Indian Constitution and Supreme Court too will not be in their favour, as per various Supreme Court judgements cited earlier.

Seshadri Subramaniam

03-16-2009 06:32 PM

[quote=ravivararo;18590]If Lord Siva is in favour of Dikshidars, then he would intructed the judges in their dream as he instructed thillai moovayirathavar to allow Nandanar inside the Temple. But Lord Siva is not in their favour. Therefore he did not instructed so. quote] HA HA HA... good going... beautiful logic... So, extending the above logic, if shiva is in favour of any actions, he would come in a dream and instruct accordingly... so, we need not have any judicial system etc... if anyone wants a decision, just pray to shiva and fall asleep in the hope that shiva would instruct in a dream... Quote:

And Further Indian Constitution and Supreme Court too will not be in their favour, as per various Supreme Court judgements cited earlier.

AS for constitutional and judicial matters, perhaps it would be wise to see how the case proceeds... if it were so crystal clear and simple, there would not have been a case in the first instance...

s007bala

03-16-2009 08:20 PM

re SS >>Tenzing and Edmund did not see anybody on the everest... the numerous expeditions in the himalayan holy places also do not see anybody who calls shiva there... > Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.> Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.> If ritual gurus are middlemen for dhakshinas, me too a middleman for Tamilzh but without dhakshinas.

You are a hindu,hmmmmm..:hand: then first thing you would do is to respect brahmin,kshatriya,vaishya,shudras..on the contrary you sound like British Christians who divided India!!:amen: Between God & an individual,whoever comes in between,is automatically a middleman,including atheists like kazhagam:tongue1: sb

s007bala

03-20-2009 10:07 PM

re Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18753) First of all Hinduism should treat Tamil well. Then we may claim in other religion. "Thaane Thirudiyaam, Ayalaalai Nambaalaam"

You speak like non-hindu or rather write like a non-hindu.Tamizh has its own place where it should be,and definitely does not need people like you to portray its greatness,thank you!:amen: Thirudanukku thaan theriyum thirutta patri,enrum ninaitthu kollalamay?(

¾¢Õ¼ÛìÌ ¾¡ý ¦¾¡¢Ôõ ¾¢Õð¼ ÀüÈ¢,±ýÕõ ¿¢¨ÉðÐ ¦¸¡øÄÄ¡¨Á?) sb:cell:

malgova.mango

03-25-2009 03:58 PM

ravi! How many temples are run by govt? how effieciently they are run? How many properties of temples are genuniely transferred for the welfare of temple and their staffs? A temple is for the society right , how many yagams are preformed ? how many temples are in neglected state. ? how many artistes are honoured? Do you know temple wells are now leased for fishing? fishing is killing living things - does this need to happen in temple ponds. is this what you call anbe shivam. Do you know what is the corruption level in India? Do you know how many issues that demands urgent attention are in a state of neglect? Do you know how do we score in Road accidents? Do you know we are 3rd world country - meaning development didn't take place like other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc... Do you know how many people migrate to escape poverty as workers to other countries like dubai , singapore etc... Do you know what's happening to the Law and Order of our country.. Do you know how much black money gets deposited in other countries from India? You please get to know this, the repair works for the gopurams of chidambaram temple and conscreation are done by Diskshitars only. Government didn't fund. After Raja manyams which happened centuries before day to day care is attended by Dikshitars only. It is recorded at times of extreme poverty they sold their wealth like jewels, lands etc .. to run day to day operations. Day to day operation for running a temple of this size is beyond you imagination my dear - Since the GOD is Nataraja - Yagyas and distribution of wealth to be performed fitting to the King. It is easy to ridicule other, difficult to appreciate what they did. Please know it is not Brahmins who designed the society .

palindrome Quote:

03-25-2009 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 18959) ravi! How many temples are run by govt? how effieciently they are run? How many properties of temples are genuniely transferred for the welfare of temple and their staffs? A temple is for the society right , how many yagams are preformed ? how many temples are in neglected state. ? how many artistes are honoured? Do you know temple wells are now leased for fishing? fishing is killing living things - does this need to happen in temple ponds. is this what you call anbe shivam. Do you know what is the corruption level in India? Do you know how many issues that demands urgent attention are in a state of neglect? Do you know how do we score in Road accidents? Do you know we are 3rd world country - meaning development didn't take place like other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc... Do you know how many people migrate to escape poverty as workers to other countries like dubai , singapore etc... Do you know what's happening to the Law and Order of our country.. Do you know how much black money gets deposited in other countries from India? You please get to know this, the repair works for the gopurams of chidambaram temple and conscreation are done by Diskshitars only. Government didn't fund. After Raja manyams which happened centuries before day to day care is attended by Dikshitars only. It is recorded at times of extreme poverty they sold their wealth like jewels, lands etc .. to run day to day operations. Day to day operation for running a temple of this size is beyond you imagination my dear - Since the GOD is Nataraja - Yagyas and distribution of wealth to be performed fitting to the King. It is easy to ridicule other, difficult to appreciate what they did. Please know it is not Brahmins who designed the society .

Brahmins were writing laws when there was kings like Manu for each yuga. Then Manus stopped happening. No monarchy. No feudalism. Only freedom. Only democracy. Democracy is every body's birth right. Corruption in the society only reflects corruption in our soul, greed in our heart and idiocy in our head. What we see outside is a reflection of what we are inside, atleast in some part.

palindrome

03-25-2009 04:48 PM

Ravi-vararo, Love for mother tongue is part of one's nature. Love for God is part of one's nature. It is natural to pray to God, talk to God in one's own mother tongue. Therefore, I agree with you about prayers being offered in Tamil. I know only about 10 lines of thirupallandu. That itself is so thrilling to me. I can imagine what one can feel for a whole genre of Tamil devotional literature. At the same time, please spare a thought for those who wish prayers to be performed in Sanskrit. Sanskrit is father tongue and Tamil is mother tongue for Tamil brahmins. For Tamil non-brahmins, Sanskrit is mother tongue and Tamil is father tongue. Tamilians currently do not have any affinity for Sanskrit because of wrongly protrayed political history. Certainly Tamil and Sanskrit can co-exist as husband and wife peacefully. They always had, in the past. Only the sense of belonging has to be

remainded back to them.

ravivararo

03-25-2009 06:17 PM

Thank you for your deposition and affidavit on mother tongue and father tongue etc. now we will find out mother in law tongue, father in law tongue, brother tongue, sister tongue etc. I am aware of transformation but not transposition. Amusing. Regards, Ravi

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 18965) Ravi-vararo, Love for mother tongue is part of one's nature. Love for God is part of one's nature. It is natural to pray to God, talk to God in one's own mother tongue. Therefore, I agree with you about prayers being offered in Tamil. I know only about 10 lines of thirupallandu. That itself is so thrilling to me. I can imagine what one can feel for a whole genre of Tamil devotional literature. At the same time, please spare a thought for those who wish prayers to be performed in Sanskrit. Sanskrit is father tongue and Tamil is mother tongue for Tamil brahmins. For Tamil non-brahmins, Sanskrit is mother tongue and Tamil is father tongue. Tamilians currently do not have any affinity for Sanskrit because of wrongly protrayed political history. Certainly Tamil and Sanskrit can co-exist as husband and wife peacefully. They always had, in the past. Only the sense of belonging has to be remainded back to them.

malgova.mango

03-25-2009 09:02 PM

ravi! temple is not built to please bhaktas, - please don't see temple as a place like a commercial center , where customer service is the central focus. temple is abode of GODS and the main purpose is to please GOD .

malgova.mango

03-25-2009 09:05 PM

ravi do you recognise - the society is not designed by brahmins. brahmins just take the precept and informs the what is the precept is all about.

malgova.mango

03-25-2009 09:09 PM

palindrome! please read kamakoti.org on the role of brahmanas, the precept is not their work, their duty stops at imparting and spreading what is the precept all about. Manu's or in any others time Brahmanas didn't write any thing of their own to mis-guide public for their own gain. This is a very serious charge without any basis.

palindrome

03-26-2009 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 18980) palindrome! please read kamakoti.org on the role of brahmanas, the precept is not their work, their duty stops at imparting and spreading what is the precept all about. Manu's or in any others time Brahmanas didn't write any thing of their own to mis-guide public for their own gain. This is a very serious charge without any basis.

Manus were kings. Kings got laws written. Agreed brahmins did not write anything on their own then. And who made the interpolations? Search, ask, send emails to indologists, read journals, talk to sanyasis of various traditions - and you will know. I know it is a very serious charge.

palindrome

03-26-2009 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18966) Thank you for your deposition and affidavit on mother tongue and father tongue etc. now we will find out mother in law tongue, father in law tongue, brother tongue, sister tongue etc. I am aware of transformation but not transposition. Amusing. Regards, Ravi

Abt Tamil or Sanskrit being the mother or father tongue, was mentioning that coz in brahmin communities men are indo-european in origin and women are asian in origin. But in non-brahmin warring communities such as dhangars, women are indo-european or eurasian in origin and men

are asian in origin. Before the arrival of the indo-european speakers, speakers of dravidian linguistic group were widespread all across the indian land mass. And I was genralizing by using tamil for dravidian and sanskrit for indo-european. Over time, those that got classed as brahmins came from a wide section of people. One example is that of a dhangar derived community of the west coast that established a mutt as late as the colonial times and became classed as brahmins, because they were following a few brahmanical practices. In that community, more women are indo-european in origin and more men are asian in origin. Another example is a kamma or kamme derived smartha community in karnataka (kannada and telugu speakers were rarely different from one another). And I had extended the concept as sanskrit for mother tongue and tamil for father tongue based on some individuals of tamil speaking communities. Reg brother tongue and sister tongue, verily all language groups are related indeed. Thankyou.

malgova.mango

03-26-2009 08:41 AM

palindrome! if you don't know the fundamentals - please you do the research from traditional scholars - not a western trained one. Your assumptions are half-baked ... For Kali Yuga - Yagyavalkya Smriti is the valid, Manu Smiriti is not for Kali-Yuga. Kings would have assigned Brahmins to write the laws - But Brahmins didn't write anything from their own whims and fancies. they only elaborated the Yagyavalkya-Smriti. Smritis followed Shrutis - please read Kavi Kalidasa's quote on Smiritis in kamakoti.org the role of shudra is not invented by brahmins, nor the role of Kshatriya or Vysya. If brahmins designed the society - then they would don the role of King and not as a sub-ordinate to a King - please mind that, because it is very much in their self-interest.

palindrome

03-26-2009 04:35 PM

MM, 1) > Very true.

4) >In those days anybody could become a king. The only way to remain a king was to meddle with venerated scriptures. Brahmins might have done as instructed to them by the warrior classes. This is what is understood by westerners now. However, Indians beleive nothing in the Manu smrithi was interpolated. The whole scripture has a metaphoric meaning which can be understood only by learning from a guru. I prefer the Indian version.