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Iron Malayan

Jan 8 2005, 11:00 AM

Roughly a century after firearms were invented by the Arabs, the Malays began making guns. Evidence of these activities were documented by W Linehan in his paper entitled Some Discoveries on the Tembeling. On the banks of the Tembeling river in peninsula Malaysia he found molds that were used to cast cannons in the 13th or 14th century. According to the conqueror of Malacca,Alfonso d'Albuquerque, Malaccan gun foundries were as good as those in Germany; This could mean they were better than Portuguese ones but the most powerful guns in those days were made by the Ottoman Turks. When the Portuguese defeated Malacca, they found thousands of cannons including an extraordinarily large one which Alfonso sent to his Hindu ally the Zamorin of Calicut. Guns produced by Malay kigdoms were of varied quality. The most powerful ones were no doubt made by the wealthiest sultanates. The best Malay cannons had no problem blasting the best European ships out of the water ; for instance the Dutch East Indies Company lost a battleship when they attacked Makassar in 1667 and another one in the 18th century when they attacked a Bugis stronghold in Bintan. Guns made by Makassar were of such high quality they were demanded by the Dutch as part of war reparation payments (even though the war was started by the Dutch).

This cannon was made in 1623 by a Malay kingdom,Singora in what is now southern Thailand. The

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Siamese conquered Singora in 1687 and used this cannon against the Annamese and Burmese. In 1766 the Burmese overran the Siamese capital Ayuthiya and took the gun to Burma. It was deployed by the Burmese in their three wars against the British. In 1887 the British defeated the Burmese and brought this cannon to London where it remains to this day.

Another southern Thai Malay kingdom that made excellent guns was Pattani.In 1571 they completed the casting of two cannons measuring 22ft 7 in. These guns were instrumental in keeping Pattani victorious against numerous Siamese attacks for over two hundred years. Pattani was finally defeated by Siam in 1786 and the biggest Pattani guns were taken to Bangkok.One of these cannons,named Seri Negeri fell into the sea while it was being shipped from Pattani.The other one,named Seri Patani is now on display at the Thai Ministry of Defense.

machinist

Jan 8 2005, 03:02 PM

informative post. :genius: some of those old cannons are very nice looking.

flipcombatmedic

Jan 9 2005, 04:40 AM

lantakas hmm. it did give the Europeans are rude awakening.

Iron Malayan

Jan 28 2005, 10:50 AM

This gun was made in the same year as the Seri Patani and Seri Negeri but is slightly smaller.

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hypermount

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Mar 27 2005, 04:15 PM

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Knew about the patani cannons but the others.. simply a WOW.. need to find more infos and pics.

malaccan

Mar 28 2005, 05:20 AM

Impressive cannons. Wonder if we have any kept in the Muzium Negara from the old sultanates.

Iron Malayan

Apr 1 2005, 03:07 PM

Last time I went to Muzium Negara, the biggest cannons are all European and all the malay guns are small; giving the false impression that only Europeans made large guns. I don't think those people running Malaysian museums even know that firearms were invented by Arabs;not Europeans or Chinese.

tommy83

Jul 11 2005, 05:36 PM

Firearms was invented by the chinese during Song dynasty.

Iron Malayan

Jul 12 2005, 04:48 PM

but guns that shoot spherical metal bullets powered by gunpowder detonation was invented by Arabs in the 13th century

HangPC2

Jan 13 2007, 06:16 AM

IPB Image Secupak Canon Form Ottoman Ottoman Empire (Sultan Selim II) which Were made to help the Muslim Sultanates Aceh (Sultan Alauddin Riayat Shah) - 1537-1538, the Ottoman sent 300 troops to the Acehnese, I don't know what they were composed of. - 1558, 400 Turkish artilery had joined with some 15000 Acehnese troops and an armada of 300 vessels in attack Melaka (Malacca) off the hands of the Portuguese albeit only for a month. - 1562, an Acehnese ambassador had gone to Istanbul to ask for Turkish help. The Ottoman sent some 500 Turks, a number of projectiles with stone bullets, munitions, engineers and people to handle the big weapons. But what I had in mind was the planned expedition that Selim II wanted to carry out which was to have some 15 war ships and be comandeered by the admiral Kurtoglu. It was also to be helped by the governerships of Yemen, Aden and Mecca, but that one was never carried out. The Ottoman Turkish empire was a very influential empire, at least as it was the simbol of the Muslim Caliphate. The success of Suleiman the Magnificent was heard loudly in these areas, with the Sultan of Demak, wanting to conquer Java so as be called, as according to the Portuguese, Manuel Pinto, segundo Turco: "the second Turkish King".

HangPC2

Jan 13 2007, 06:33 AM

QUOTE(malaccan @ Mar 28 2005, 06:20 PM) [snapback]774877[/snapback]

Impressive cannons. Wonder if we have any kept in the Muzium Negara from the old sultanates.

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Malay Decorated Traditional Gun ''Pemuras''

Malay_guy

Jan 16 2007, 09:27 PM

Is that man wearing armor?

tangawizi

Jan 16 2007, 11:02 PM

Interesting post...I'll never look at cannons in the same way again.

Betong

Jan 17 2007, 09:18 PM

I think in Malaysia we have cannons too. Like the one at Bukit Melawati, Selangor..

Centurion

Jan 18 2007, 12:20 AM

QUOTE(Iron Malayan @ Jul 12 2005, 04:48 PM) [snapback]884426[/snapback]

Roughly a century after firearms were invented by the Arabs, the Malays began making guns.

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QUOTE(Iron Malayan @ Jul 12 2005, 04:48 PM) [snapback]884426[/snapback]

but guns that shoot spherical metal bullets powered by gunpowder detonation was invented by Arabs in the 13th century

I am very interested in how you back your claim that the Arabs "INVENTED FIREARMS". What do you mean by "firearms"? Here is a definition I found fire·arm (fīr'ärm') n. A weapon, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant. Did Arabs discover gunpowder before the Chinese in the 13th Century? Did they start using explosive missiles prior to 1232 AD? (yes, it's on written record, what is the equivalent Arab written record?) See - http://monkeytree.org/silkroad/gunpowder/china3.html Or perhaps the Arabs invented the musket gun before the English (1700s)? Did they invent the revolver before Samuel Colt (1836)? Was it a machine gun? A rifle gun? See - http://inventors.about.com/od/militaryhist.../a/firearms.htm As far as I can ascertain there is a SCHOOL OF THOUGHT (note it's not a written record, only a hypothesis) that the Arabs were possibly the first to make and use cannons (NOT JUST ANY FIREARM, but a cannon) called madfaa around 1250 AD (in terms of "firearms", Arab cannons still beaten by the Chinese missiles of 1232 AD). See - http://www.trivia-library.com/b/military-a...-the-cannon.htm I am not interested in boasting about military inventions or fanciful notions of racial superiority. I merely want the facts. I don't let emotions sway my knowledge of history. Do you, O Iron Malayan?

HangPC2

Apr 13 2007, 03:12 AM

Malay Firearms

Rifled Musket & Pistol # Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun) # Bedil Istinggar (Flintlock Musket) # Tarkul

Canon # Lela Rentaka # Lela Rambang # Tahan # Lada Sicupak (Acheh Canon) # Nang Liu-Liu (Patani Canon) # Seri Patani (Patani Canon)

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# Seri Negeri (Patani Canon)

maldini

Apr 13 2007, 03:22 AM

ok... malay was good many many century ago... guess this is wat iron malayan trying to bring across.... but in today world... what u r today is more important than all these history. if u r no better than your past, u should look at mirror and think y and how to improve... but from what i see and experienced, most of them just bring up the history and be proud with it... but do nothing to reflect themself...

zenithdoom

Apr 13 2007, 06:36 AM

so what if arabs invented firearms before the chinese? they're still not malay... even though they're muslims, arabs are not malays.. :P.... hahaha... but i thought big guns back then were outdated? the europeans use smaller and portable guns so they can use it on the battlefield?

Pink Cream

Apr 13 2007, 07:55 AM

QUOTE(zenithdoom @ Apr 13 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]2867972[/snapback]

so what if arabs invented firearms before the chinese? they're still not malay... even though they're muslims, arabs are not malays.. :P.... hahaha... but i thought big guns back then were outdated? the europeans use smaller and portable guns so they can use it on the battlefield?

no one even stated malays invented guns. i'm pretty sure the bigger cannon's were used to bombard fortifications and the like, possibly ships as well.

Betong

Apr 14 2007, 01:41 AM

QUOTE(zenithdoom @ Apr 13 2007, 06:36 AM) [snapback]2867972[/snapback]

so what if arabs invented firearms before the chinese? they're still not malay... even though they're muslims, arabs are not malays.. :P.... hahaha... but i thought big guns back then were outdated? the europeans use smaller and portable guns so they can use it on the battlefield?

Dude what your problem... Feeling insecure towards Malay..

redeyeleo

Apr 14 2007, 09:26 AM

Hello all, I have seen some of those in my local museum(Museum Tampin) but a few years ago someone try to steal it and u all must had read it,Just wondering how they can lift it up :>:>:> but anyway i think it can be used similar like how we play meriam buluh rite!!

Betong

Apr 15 2007, 10:32 PM

I didn't about that... Are this guys crazy or what??? What their intention to steal those cannons in museum...

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Maybe they fed up using buluh as meriam anymore... They want to upgrade it to real cannons

HangPC2

Sep 7 2007, 11:55 AM

Credit http://www.information.gov.bn

HangPC2

Feb 12 2008, 11:23 AM

Malay Firearms

Rifled Musket & Pistol

# Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun) # Bedil Istinggar (Malay Flintlock Musket) # Tarkul

Malay Cannon

# Lela Rentaka # Lela Rambang # Tahan # Lada Sicupak (Aceh) # Nang Liu-Liu (Patani) # Seri Patani (Patani) # Seri Negeri (Patani) # Badak Berendam (Kedah) # Katak Puru (Kedah)

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# Meriam Lela Che Pandak Ibrahim (Perak) # Meriam Penggawa (Selangor)

Brunei Darul Salam

Pemuras

Pemuras and Karga are royal regalia where the Pemuras is a large gun held against the right shoulder of the Panglima Raja wearing red ceremonial attire. While the Karga is the bullet carrier strapped on the left shoulder to the right side of the body.

Aceh Darul Salam

Pemuras

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Makassar

Pemuras

HangPC2

Feb 12 2008, 11:28 AM

Meriam Lantka (Lela Rentaka)

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HangPC2

Feb 12 2008, 11:37 AM

Malay Cannon of the 17th & 18th Century

Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East. The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding.

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Sources : http://www.fortsiloso.com/museum/malay.htm

cchmod

Feb 17 2008, 10:49 PM

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QUOTE(HangPC2 @ Feb 12 2008, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3493134[/snapback]

Makassar Pemuras

Bugis-made fire arm such as beautiful art of work.

kelantanese

Feb 18 2008, 05:21 AM

for me firearms is no need, because u still can use arrow n bow in not-so-close-combat, if long distance cannon all the way. if im the sultan during that era all steel that been used in making firearms should be use in making canon, large canon. So that no any ship that want to conquer us can avoid from it.

dreamhunter

Feb 19 2008, 12:57 AM

Maybe some guys r just really paranoid (i.e. scared stiff) about the slightest indication or suggestion of Malay achievement. I don't know. Or maybe they just can't help needling Malays at every slightest opportunity. Anyway, we'll just let them be. Let them have their little thrills. We'll just have to plod along, making one small achievement after another, until one day, they just sit up n take notice. Not that it really matters anymore that time then. Whether Chinese, Arabs or Europeans made big guns first is now not important. The important point is that Malays could make big guns too. That is good enough. For the moment. This topic is quite interesting though. At least it shows that we can play with the best of them.

Jagger

Feb 20 2008, 09:35 AM

QUOTE(Centurion @ Jan 18 2007, 05:20 AM) [snapback]2660245[/snapback]

I am very interested in how you back your claim that the Arabs "INVENTED FIREARMS". What do you mean by "firearms"? Here is a definition I found fire·arm (fÄ«r'ärm') n. A weapon, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant. Did Arabs discover gunpowder before the Chinese in the 13th Century? Did they start using explosive missiles prior to 1232 AD? (yes, it's on written record, what is the equivalent Arab written record?) See - http://monkeytree.org/silkroad/gunpowder/china3.html Or perhaps the Arabs invented the musket gun before the English (1700s)? Did they invent the revolver before Samuel Colt (1836)? Was it a machine gun? A rifle gun? See - http://inventors.about.com/od/militaryhist.../a/firearms.htm

Rockets were being used by both the Chinese and Arabs well before 1232.

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Both the Chinese and Arabs were already using musket guns by the 15th century, long before the English. Multi-barrel machine guns first appeared in Mughal India in the 16th century.

QUOTE(Centurion @ Jan 18 2007, 05:20 AM) [snapback]2660245[/snapback]

As far as I can ascertain there is a SCHOOL OF THOUGHT (note it's not a written record, only a hypothesis) that the Arabs were possibly the first to make and use cannons (NOT JUST ANY FIREARM, but a cannon) called madfaa around 1250 AD (in terms of "firearms", Arab cannons still beaten by the Chinese missiles of 1232 AD). See - http://www.trivia-library.com/b/military-a...-the-cannon.htm I am not interested in boasting about military inventions or fanciful notions of racial superiority. I merely want the facts. I don't let emotions sway my knowledge of history. Do you, O Iron Malayan?

Actually, the portable midfaa hand cannons which the Egyptians used against the Mongols in the 13th century (which is based on written records, not just some hypothesis) were a lot more explosive than the Chinese and European firearms at the time.

dreamhunter

Feb 21 2008, 05:16 AM

QUOTE(Jagger @ Feb 20 2008, 09:35 AM) [snapback]3511263[/snapback]

Rockets were being used by both the Chinese and Arabs well before 1232. Both the Chinese and Arabs were already using musket guns by the 15th century, long before the English. Multi-barrel machine guns first appeared in Mughal India in the 16th century. Actually, the portable midfaa hand cannons which the Egyptians used against the Mongols in the 13th century (which is based on written records, not just some hypothesis) were a lot more explosive than the Chinese and European firearms at the time.

No wonder! So that's how the Gyptos whupped Genghiz's guys. Bravo to Gypto. Did the Chams of Champa n the Viets of Annam use guns too? I heard those folks also had some bruising battles against them.

HangPC2

Feb 23 2008, 06:39 PM

Meriam Lada Sicupak (Aceh)

Acehnese Cannons Used During The First Aceh-Holland War

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Adaptation From Ottoman Cannon

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Sources : http://kerajaanpasai.blogdrive.c ... -02_y-2006_o-0.html

Jagger

Feb 26 2008, 03:04 AM

QUOTE(dreamhunter @ Feb 21 2008, 10:16 AM) [snapback]3513329[/snapback]

No wonder! So that's how the Gyptos whupped Genghiz's guys. Bravo to Gypto. Did the Chams of Champa n the Viets of Annam use guns too? I heard those folks also had some bruising battles against them.

I think most of Asia was probably already using gunpowder by the 14th century.

dreamhunter

Feb 28 2008, 06:00 AM

Wow! Dirgahayu Melayu. Viva Asia.

HangPC2

Mar 2 2008, 03:03 AM

Meriam Badak Berendam & Meriam Katak Puru (Kedah)

Location : Kota Kuala Kedah

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HangPC2

Apr 10 2008, 10:42 AM

Meriam Lela Che Pandak Ibrahim (Perak)

Location : Perak Museum

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Pemuras (Perak)

Sources : http://azizanzolkipli.multiply.com

HangPC2

Apr 10 2008, 11:13 AM

Meriam Lela Rentaka 1850's (Perak)

A Rentaka is a cannon made by the Malays in copper. Lela is the name of a lady & Rentaka means strong. Gun, sulphur & gun powder was used as fire power. Lela Rentaka is versatile & can be used mounted on boats. During the Pasir Salak War, the Malays used the Lela Rentaka extensively. The 1st record of its use was during the rule of Malacca Sultanate and the fight against the Portuguese in 1511. This Lela Rentaka was made in 1850's.

Location : Pasir Salak Historical Complex

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AwangPembela

Apr 10 2008, 10:13 PM

I just went up to Kota Melawati, on Bukit Melawati in Kuala Selangor, recently. Saw some interesting-looking medium-size cannons mounted on low walls facing out to the sea. Forgot to ask for some photos. Will try to get something on net if they have them. The place was supposed to have witnessed a few robust battles between the newly entrenched Bugis aristocracy (who founded the Selangor kingdom) n their allies turned enemies, the Dutch. The Dutch won the place for a few years, renamed it Fort Altingsburg after their chief, one Mr. Alting, but then the spunky Bugis wrested it back from them a while later.

HangPC2

Apr 11 2008, 02:32 AM

QUOTE(AwangPembela @ Apr 11 2008, 11:13 AM) [snapback]3629046[/snapback]

I just went up to Kota Melawati, on Bukit Melawati in Kuala Selangor, recently.

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Saw some interesting-looking medium-size cannons mounted on low walls facing out to the sea. Forgot to ask for some photos. Will try to get something on net if they have them. The place was supposed to have witnessed a few robust battles between the newly entrenched Bugis aristocracy (who founded the Selangor kingdom) n their allies turned enemies, the Dutch. The Dutch won the place for a few years, renamed it Fort Altingsburg after their chief, one Mr. Alting, but then the spunky Bugis wrested it back from them a while later.

Meriam Penggawa & V.O.C Dutch Cannon

AwangPembela

May 4 2008, 10:24 AM

So when r we going seriously into the guns business again, any ideas?

kelantanese

May 4 2008, 12:02 PM

esok kot :p

HangPC2

May 20 2008, 10:29 AM

Meriam Penggawa (Selangor)

Location : Selangor Royal Thomb

"The Meriam Penggawa is always wrapped in yellow cloth. It is uniquely covered with the royal-coloured cloth to prevent from blasting on its own."

The Meriam Penggawa is always wrapped in yellow cloth. The notoriety of Meriam Penggawa is that it would explode or fire by itself when a calamity is about to befall the Selangor Royal Family thus it is uniquely covered with the royal-coloured cloth to prevent from blasting on its own. The cannon was found at the edge of Sungai Buluh (Buluh River) 12km to the south of Kuala Selangor on September 23, 1966, in the burial grounds of 3 Sultans of Selangor. Its original name is Petoi Boga, which means White Princess.

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HangPC2

Jun 26 2008, 01:43 AM

Meriam Datuk Undang Abdullah (Negeri Sembilan)

Location : Thomb Of Moyang Salleh

Sources : http://artmelayu.blogspot.com

HangPC2

Oct 18 2008, 04:21 AM

Meriam Kota Lukut (Negeri Sembilan)

Lokasi : Museum & Kota Lukut, Negeri Sembilan

Sources : http://artmelayu.blogspot.com/

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yiming2000

Oct 28 2008, 06:50 PM

QUOTE(Iron Malayan @ Jan 8 2005, 11:00 AM) [snapback]651791[/snapback]

Roughly a century after firearms were invented by the Arabs, the Malays began making guns.

The only thing that Malays ever began making was satay, skewered meat cooked on charcoal. I am not even sure satay wasn't an Indonesian invention. I was more unsure when I saw yakitori in Tokyo. Chances are, the Japanese brought yakitori to the Malays when they invaded Malaya. The same way the Chinese brought kungfu which the Malays based their silat on.

Protoculture

Oct 28 2008, 07:25 PM

QUOTE

The only thing that Malays ever began making was satay, skewered meat cooked on charcoal. I am not even sure satay wasn't an Indonesian invention.

Skewered meat cooked on embers came from Arab. Arab traders brought 'em alongs with Islam to Malay Archipelago, & tradition passed on to Malaysians & Indonesians localised 'em into satay.

QUOTE

The same way the Chinese brought kungfu which the Malays based their silat on.

Silat evolved from the traditions of ancient Hindu courts on Sumatra & Java, refined by local warlords in the defence of their realms. In time, several distinct silat schools already present on various forms all over Malay Archipelago with their own unique fighting styles. The only silat that borrows from wushu movements (its not kungfu, but WUSHU - kungfu is a bastardised Hollywood term for Chinese martial art, bub!) is Silat Kuntao, originated from Indonesia. But Indonesia in itself have more original silat varieties, developed from ancient Hindu times & carried over to Islamic era. Do your freaking research!

yiming2000

Oct 28 2008, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Protoculture @ Oct 28 2008, 07:25 PM) [snapback]3986762[/snapback]

The only silat that borrows from wushu movements (its not kungfu, but WUSHU - kungfu is a bastardised Hollywood term for Chinese martial art, bub!) is Silat Kuntao, originated from Indonesia. But Indonesia in itself have more original silat varieties, developed from ancient Hindu times & carried over to Islamic era. Do your freaking research!

I don't need research. I use common sense to shift through the bull$hit. Suffice to say that silat is not a Malay invention. I don't think it was copied from the Indians. The fighting in Indian movies is ridiculous. Even my Indian friends laugh at it. There is only one origin of hand-to-hand combat: China.

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Oct 28 2008, 08:42 PM

Protoculture

QUOTE

I don't need research. I use common sense to shift through the bull$hit. Suffice to say that silat is not a Malay invention. I don't think it was copied from the Indians.

No wonder you're BLOODY FRIGGIN' IGNORANT! Ancient Hindu courts in Nusantara are NOT, I repeat again, ARE NOT, Indians. They're either Sumatrans, or Javanese. Yes, before Islam came to Nusantara, Hindu & even Buddhism are the main religions in Archipelago, together with shamanism animists. Silat is a local invention, by natives of Nusantara realms. Goodness gracious, your level of history & basic intelligence are extremely low for someone claiming to be academically inclined!

Nov 3 2008, 12:17 PM

yiming2000

QUOTE(Protoculture @ Oct 28 2008, 09:42 PM) [snapback]3986896[/snapback]

Silat is a local invention, by natives of Nusantara realms. Goodness gracious, your level of history & basic intelligence are extremely low for someone claiming to be academically inclined!

The only Nusantara influence is in the ridiculous way the silat exponent waves his hand like a Balinese dancer, slaps his tighs and shifts his feet this way and that for no reason. These days, silat has dropped the dancing moves and looks no different from karate. The Malays like to delude themselves that they have something, anything that they can claim to be their own. They have nothing. I am sorry to break your heart. Please face the brutal truth that is only in Islam. You have nothing originally Malay. Even the Malay (of Malaysia) is a political identity cooked up by the British.

Dec 8 2008, 08:35 AM

HangPC2 off topic...................... yiming2000 (multinick)

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