Katherine Jackson V AEG Live Transcripts of Debbie Rowe (MJ's Ex wife-Dr Klein's Ex nurse) August 14th 2013

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JACKSON V AEG LIVE August 14th 2013:

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Debbie Rowe (MJ’s Ex wife-Dr Klein’s Ex nurse)

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(The following proceedings were held in open court outside the presence of the jury)

Judge:

Something small you wanted to talk about?

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Ms. Chang: Just a small issue. Basically, I guess part of it is some guidance because, frankly, what has occurred with this next witness, I've never had happen in my career, and Mr. Panish hasn't had it happen in his career. We kind of tried to look up in the rules, and we're going to tell you this deposition

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was scheduled, and there was a conflict or some kind of strange something happen, and no one from the Plaintiff's side appeared at the deposition.

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We have multiple attorneys on our side as I'm sure you know. The deposition started, and no one called our office; yet the witness evidently was told we were contacted and chose not to come which is not true. I wasn't there. I'm representing what was represented to me. I don't want to make any false representations. We have an entire deposition that took place where Plaintiff's counsel was not present, and then there is a second deposition at Lloyds of London where of course Plaintiff's counsel is not present at either. They may not have been either.

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But for the use of this deposition -- this has never -- there have been situations where I've been on the defense or Plaintiff side where I don't see the other side. I don't start the depo, and I get on the phone, and I figure out -- sometimes I put on the record that counsel is not there. I've spoken to them. They said to proceed, and they'll be here, or counsel is not here. We're going to reschedule this because my personal fear would be that that deposition would not be usable without two sides there. Now I have practiced in a lot of jurisdictions. I know some jurisdictions I've been in, this would not be an appropriate transcript to use to even impeach a witness or to use it. I bring it up to the judge for the record to report what happened. You can see it's a very lengthy deposition. Not one question from Plaintiff's counsel because out of all the firms that represent Mrs. Jackson, no one was at this deposition; yet it went forward.

Ms. Chang:

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Mr. Panish: Your honor, if I could, just a little clarification. Mr. Glassman apparently was supposed to attend. He had mis-calendared. There was a religious holiday. He was attending services. Our office was not contacted. The deposition went forward. We had numerous emails back and forth after the fact. That's what happened. I don't think it would be appropriate to allow them to use the deposition. They could have just called our office. We're five minutes away. No one called us or anything as any courtesy at all. What was the date on that? September 17, 2012.

Mr. Panish: When depositions were going on all the time. There has been a hundred depositions. Is this a witness who is testifying live?

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Judge:

Ms. Chang: Yes.

Mr. Panish: Yes.

It would only be used to impeach and refresh.

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Judge:

Mr. Panish:

Correct.

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Judge: You have no objection to refreshing, do you? Mr. Panish:

No.

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Judge: Impeachment issue I'm concerned about. The parties who were there, were there any who had a similar interest in cross-examining?

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Mr. Panish: No. The parties there were Mr. Putnam and lawyers from O'Melveny and Myers and lawyers representing the Defendant, a lawyer representing the Estate who has a different interest, and a lawyer representing the witness.

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Ms. Stebbins: Just to clarify facts, the deposition was noticed and confirmed multiple times. There is no requirement that another party attend a deposition. It's their choice whether to do it or not. There were issues going on. I'm not going to rehash all that. The point is, Plaintiffs had timely notice of the deposition. It had been confirmed multiple times, and they didn't attend. There is no rule that makes deposition testimony inadmissible just because Plaintiff's counsel forgot to attend. It was testimony under oath. It would only be used in this instance to impeach the witness if she contradicts her own prior sworn testimony under oath or to refresh her recollection which is not going to be played to the jury. There is no basis for not using the deposition under the circumstances. As for the insurance deposition, if I recall correctly, Plaintiffs asked that that come into this case and had -Mr. Panish: We are not --

-- with insurance counsel and Mrs. Rowe's counsel a couple months ago regarding

Mr. Panish: We're not raising that issue.

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Ms. Stebbins: that.

Ms. Stebbins: It seems like they have to objection to her being impeached with that deposition should she contradict herself. This is Ms. Rowe's prior sworn testimony. The deposition was timely noticed pursuant to statute. They had every opportunity to attend. There is no grounds to excluding it.

Mr. Panish:

I was there.

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Mr. Putnam:

May I say something?

Judge: Yes, go ahead.

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Mr. Panish: I've been at thousands of depositions. Many times lawyers for some reason, whatever reason, aren't there. In this case, there were more than a hundred depositions. Plaintiff's counsel was at every single deposition. This is Ms. Rowe. We would have obviously attended but for some neglect on either Mr. Glassman's part or calendaring, whatever. In the rules of Los Angeles Superior Court, you'd call -- our office is five minutes from Mr. Putnam's office. It wouldn't have taken long to just place a phone call. There are 16 lawyers in the firm. Somebody could have attended. The position I guess they are taking is we don't have any requirement or obligation under the law or ethics or anything to contact another firm who represents a party that we know is in the lawsuit who has a significant interest in the deposition. They are right. We were not there. Okay. We didn't not attend on purpose. We had notice of the deposition. There is no dispute about that. Just like we had notice of a hundred or so other depositions. It seems to me -- I don't know why they couldn't have placed a call. If they called and no one came and even left a message, then, you know, that seems to me that would have been a reasonable thing. Obviously, they don't think they needed to do that.

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Ms. Chang: I just want to finish, and then I'll let Mr. Putnam talk. Everything that Ms. Stebbins Bina said is true. All of that is true. Our point is this. I think the rules of professional ethics and courtesy and civility -- I have never in 20-some years of practice -- I've been on defense side and Plaintiff's side. I've never proceeded with a deposition when all counsel was not present. I don't even like to start when they

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tell me I can go ahead and start. I usually just wait.

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I think that there is a level of professionalism that this case merits and deserves and especially with this witness. It's almost like one of those gotcha moments. As your honor knows, there are ways where a question can come out from Mr. Putnam and the full truth be eliminated by a cross-examination when it is our time. I think that it was unfair. Frankly, we didn't -- I wanted to raise it before just to say we want to retake her deposition. But I didn't because I wasn't sure of what the law was because I can't find anything. It's never happened in my career. It's never happened in Mr. Panish's career. We don't practice law like this. I can't say that she's wrong, or Mr. Putnam is wrong, and I wasn't there. I'm just saying it is an unfair situation. We raised it to the court. It's an important issue for the record. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Maybe she won't even need the deposition.

It's a good point.

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Ms. Chang:

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Judge: My question is will you need it during the testimony? If do you, if you take the position now, you may not be able to use it based on your own request that it be excluded.

Judge: You may want to use it. It may be helpful to you.

Ms. Stebbins: Mr. Putnam will respond this happened in September 2012. This was before the seven hour time limit. There is no rule that prevented them from noticing their own deposition of Ms. Rowe from following up with this, asking it be reopened by the court. Judge: The court for leave. Exactly, your honor.

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Ms. Stebbins:

Mr. Panish: We did do that on another witness, and we were denied. Ms. Stebbins:

On another --

Judge: What was that?

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Mr. Panish: Mr. Woolley when we didn't have documents, and we tried to get relief to retake his deposition and that was denied by the court. Mr. Woolley has testified by video, and we didn't have an opportunity to question him with the many documents we later obtained.

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Ms. Stebbins: If you recall, they wanted to question him about a document they had in possession at the deposition and chose not to ask him about. That deposition was noticed Plaintiffs and continued by Plaintiffs. It's a completely different situation. He's in Florida, your honor. In any event, this is a witness who lives in Southern California. This happened in September 2012. The remedy, if any -- and I don't think there is any under the code because the rules don't require courtesy notices. Again, what --

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Judge: The rules of professional conduct would seem to apply. Mr. Putnam: Your honor --

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Ms. Stebbins: Mr. Putnam will explain. There were some extenuating circumstances in the situation as to why notice was not given that morning. That said, notice was given of a deposition multiple

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times, confirmed multiple times. There is no statutory or other grounds for excluding it. Again, if there was some issue, it should have been resolved months ago. It's not a year later, oh, now you can't use any of this testimony. We're going to sit on it and not do anything about it and then try to prevent truthful prior testimony from coming into court. Ms. Chang: We've been a little busy.

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Mr. Panish: We haven't had an opportunity to question. I guess there is this thing extenuating circumstances. Maybe the phone system and emails weren't working that day at O'Melveny and Myers. Ms. Stebbins: They'll have a full chance to cross-examine her in court. Mr. Putnam, you've been waiting patiently.

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Judge:

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Mr. Putnam: We provided proper notice and follow-up emails as to the date. Let them know where it would be. It was not at O'Melveny and Myers. It was at the firm of Ms. Rowe's counsel. It had been difficult to schedule. She decided that was the day she could finally come forward. We emailed them and provided proper notice. At that time there were a number of cases, not just this one. The Lloyds case was going on as well as probate. There were a number of hearings at that time. They attended some and not others, and that is a fact. Therefore, when we got there, when they didn't show up, we talked about it amongst counsel and queried whether this was one they didn't attend because they hadn't been attending certain things at that time period. We waited a while and then proceeded, your honor.

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Mr. Panish: Your honor, we attended every single proceeding in this action which we represented to the parties. We weren't counsel in probate. We're not counsel in any other proceeding. I haven't heard -what's the reason Mr. Putnam couldn't just pick up the phone? Obviously, it was his decision he was going to get a tactical advantage, and they proceeded forward. That's what they did. I have never taken a deposition -Judge: It does seem like a phone call should have been made. There is no remedy in the code for this situation. I mean, maybe a lack of professionalism under the code of professional responsibility, but there is no remedy for it.

Like I said, you may want to use the depo yourself.

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Judge:

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Ms. Chang: The other thing, we want your honor to be aware of the situation. We made our record. We don't want to take up too much time. I think it was an important issue so you know what's going on when the depos play, and we'll address any problem that comes up and maybe no problem comes up.

Ms. Chang: Very true. I think the full story should be on the record. Ms. Stebbins: This is something they raised and put on the record a number of times.

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Mr. Panish: You said we didn't raise it until now.

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Ms. Stebbins: They raised they were concerned about it. They never sought any remedy or change. We talk about strategic choices. It's a strategic choice not to reopen the deposition and seek further discovery during the discovery period.

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Ms. Cahan: Ms. Rowe has two attorneys with her today, and one of them would like to sit in front of where Mr. Panish's counsel is, if possible. Judge: There are Fire Marshal rules. I'm not sure if that can be done. He can sit next to her, if he wants, up here. If the Fire Marshal comes in, we may have to do some dancing. But for now -- we'll find a chair.

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Mr. George: Thank you very much, your honor.

I think we're trying to find a chair. You may call your next witness.

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

Defense calls Debbie Rowe to the stand, please.

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Judge:

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(The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of the jury)

Stand right there. Face the clerk. Raise your right hand. Deborah Rowe, (Called as a witness by the defense, was sworn and testified as follows)

The witness:

Yes.

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The clerk: Do you solemnly state that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god?

The clerk: Thank you, ma'am. You may have a seat. The witness: The clerk:

Thank you.

Ma'am, can you please state and spell your first and last name for the record. Deborah, d-e-b-o-r-a-h, j. Rowe, r-o-w-e.

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The witness:

The clerk: Thank you.

Direct examination by Mr. Putnam:

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Judge: Thank you.

Good morning, Ms. Rowe. How are you this morning?

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It's really warm in here.

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Q.

Q.

It is. Do you have a water up there?

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A.

No.

Mr. Putnam:

May I approach?

Judge: Yes, you may. Thank you.

Mr. Putnam:

Ms. Rowe, you're here because you were given a trial subpoena, correct?

Correct.

Q. You're not here because you volunteered to come in? No.

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The witness:

Q. And you were required to come in because of a trial subpoena, correct? A. Yes.

Do you have a lawyer with you here today?

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I do.

Q. Where is he? A.

Sitting next to you.

Q. What is his name? A.

Eric George.

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Q.

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Q. You were deposed in this matter, correct? A. Yes.

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Q. And that's when we met for the first time? A. Yes.

Ms. Chang:

Overruled.

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Judge:

Object to the legal questions.

Mr. Putnam:

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A.

No.

Have we ever met before?

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No.

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Did we meet with you in advance to help you prepare for your deposition?

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No.

Q. And since then, have we talked ever? No.

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Do you know my colleague Ms. Stebbins?

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I don't think we met.

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No.

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Q. And what about Ms. Cahan?

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Q. You don't know anybody on that side, correct? I don't believe so.

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Did you do anything to prepare for your testimony here today?

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A. Took a shower. Did my hair. Q.

Did you look at your deposition transcript?

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No, I don't have it.

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Q. And what about any documents? Did you look at any? No.

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Now do you know the law firm representing Plaintiffs in this matter?

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No.

Have you ever met Mr. Panish? Hi, I'm Debbie. No, I haven't.

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Q.

Q. What about Ms. Chang?

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I did this morning.

Q. This morning. Do you know Kevin Boyle?

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Have we ever talked before that?

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Q.

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A.

I know his name.

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No.

Q.

Jennifer Farrell?

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No.

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Q. What about Robert Glassman?

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Q. Any other lawyers -- have you ever met with any of them from the Panish Law Firm? No.

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Q. What about Sandra Rivera? No.

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Perry Sanders?

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No.

Q.

Michael Koskoff?

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No.

Q.

Bill Glass?

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No.

Q.

Eleanor Sterling?

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How big is your law firm?

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A.

Q. This is another law firm.

Is the question did she meet them or even know who they are?

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Mr. Panish:

Mr. Putnam:

Does she know who they are.

The witness:

No.

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Mr. Putnam: What about Keri Riley? A.

No.

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Q. And Casey Maxwell?

No.

Q.

So you didn't meet with any of those people in preparing for today, right?

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No.

A. Today? No. Did you talk to her about your testimony in trial?

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No, we don't talk about that.

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Q.

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Q. What about Mrs. Jackson? Did you talk to her before coming here today?

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A.

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No.

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Q. So you're here because you were served. You're not here because you volunteered to come in, correct?

Ms. Chang: Asked and answered, your honor. The witness:

Sustained. Asked and answered.

Mr. Putnam:

Now, Ms. Rowe, you had a long-time relationship with Mr. Jackson, correct?

A. Yes. Ms. Chang: Judge:

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Judge:

I did not volunteer.

Objection, leading.

Overruled.

A. Yes.

It became personal over time?

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Q.

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Mr. Putnam: Was it professional at one point?

A. Yes. Q.

Okay.

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A.

Like with your deposition, I'm going to ask you questions about that relationship. Okay?

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Q. And like with your deposition, if you have any questions, just let me know. If you want to take a break, just let me know. A.

Okay.

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Q. You should know we will break at noon. A. We just started, and you want to take a break?

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Can't go longer? It's 60 miles from where I live.

Q.

Usually we can't.

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Q. We'll come back then at 1:30. Around 3:00 there will be a break, and then we'll stop about 4:15. Okay?

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A. No offense, you guys, but traffic -- I sat at a light for 20 minutes. 20 minutes. How do people do it?

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I just don't -- traffic...

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Q. Well, in that regard, we really do thank you for being here today. I know it's inconvenient.

Q. When you first met Mr. Jackson, were you working for a doctor named Arnold Klein, correct? A. Yes. Q. Who is Arnold Klein? He is a Dermatologist.

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Q. And was Mr. Jackson a patient of Dr. Arnold Klein? A.

He became a patient. That's how I met him.

Q. Were you working for Mr. Klein? Dr. Klein, yes.

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Q. Now, before we go through all of that, let's talk about what you're doing today. Do you have a profession today, ma'am?

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I breed and raise quarter horses and paint horses.

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How long have you done that, ma'am?

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A. Ten years.

Q. Where do you do that?

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In Palmdale.

Q. That's for ten years?

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A. Yes.

Q. Now what we're going to do is we're going to go back to where you grew up, go through your education, and then go through where you worked. Okay, ma'am? Okay.

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A.

Q. Where were you born? A.

Spokane, Washington.

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Q. And your father, he was in the service, correct?

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Did you move around a lot?

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A. Yes, he was a pilot for the Air Force.

A. We did, almost every two-and-a-half years until I was 11. Q. And when you were 11, where did you arrive?

A. We ended up, when he retired, in Riverside, California. He was at March Air Force Base, and then my parents divorced, and the kids -- us kids moved to Los Angeles. How old were you when you moved to Los Angeles?

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11.

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Q.

Q. And then you grew up here from 11 on?

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A. Yes. I went to Hollywood High, and then I went to Valley College for a little bit. And then I studied to be an Emergency Medical Tech which is an EMT. I and I started working for Dr. Klein. Q.

Let's talk a little bit about EMT. Where did you study to be an EMT?

Q.

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A. It used to -- I don't remember the name of the school. I think it was absorbed by, like, Bryman college, and now I don't even know. It was valley something. I have looked for the names, and I can't find it because I -- I'm old. It's been -- they are put away. I don't know where they are. Did you get a certificate at the end of that?

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A. Yes.

Q. What did you study to be an EMT?

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A. What? Q. Yes.

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A. Emergency Medical Technician at the time was first aid, CPR, assisting -- in addition, I was taught how to keep records, insurance forms, how to run a front office and a back office for a doctor. Q. Now a Richard Senneff has testified in this matter, and he is an EMT. Would he have a similar background as yours in terms of education? Don't know who he is. Objection.

Mr. George:

Objection.

Judge:

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Ms. Chang:

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A.

Sustained.

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Mr. Putnam: With the certificate, could you have gone and worked on an ambulance? In what position?

Q. As an EMT.

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A. You know, I don't know what ambulances now a days are required. If it's to move someone from a hospital to a facility or from an incident to a hospital and that's all that was happening, we used to call it grunt work -- if I offend anyone, I apologize -- then, yes, I could. But I -- I'm sure that it's a lot more detailed now than it was when I did it. Q. And did you ever do that kind of work after you graduated? A.

I worked for a short time for an externship ship with Schaefer.

Q. What is Schaefer?

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A. Schaefer was an ambulance company. I don't remember if AMC took them over or they took AMC. I don't remember. Q. After that, is that when you started working for Dr. Klein?

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A. Yes.

Q. What year was that?

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A. 1978, July of '78 or '79. I'm not really good with dates. I'm good with a place and what was going on around. I'm not good -- if you give -- I hated history. So I'm not -- I need a reference point to it. Q. We will try to help you with that today.

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A.

Okay.

Q. You think it was around '78 or '79?

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A. I graduated high school in '77, went to college for a year and then went nine months for the EMT class. And two months later, I started working for Dr. Klein. Q. And you said Dr. Klein is a Dermatologist, correct?

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Had you heard of him before you started working with him?

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A. Yes.

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A. One of the girls who was teaching where I was -- where I got certified was doing insurance billing for him, and he was looking for somebody. That's how I found out about him. Q. And Dr. Klein -- had you ever heard of him referred to as the Dermatologist to the stars? He's a legend in his own mind.

Q. And why is that? A. We had a very high profile clientele. Q.

Patients?

A. Yes.

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Q. And generally what was his practice?

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A. Skin. In the beginning, it was -- primarily general skin disorders. And then, as time went on, we did the study for Botox and for Collagen and things like that which is what he's probably most wellknown for now. Q. And how long did you work there? I left in '96 or 7. '97, I think.

Q.

So almost 20 years?

A.

Long time.

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Q. What did you do then?

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A. I would take patients to the room. I'd take their histories; find out what they were there to see the doctor for. I helped explain treatments or procedures that were going to be done. If someone had a question, they could call me, and I would either contact the doctor, or, if it was something that was general and I could answer it, I would answer it. I'd return calls for the doctor. I did biopsy reports. I sometimes helped patients schedule other appointments for either coming back to see Dr. Klein especially if we were doing a study. Or if they needed to see another physician for something, I would help with that if I needed to. I tried to be extremely helpful to the patients.

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Q. You said you left, you thought, in 1996. What did you do next? A.

It was '96 or '97. Michael encouraged me to go back to college.

Q.

Michael Jackson?

A.

I was there for two-and-a-half years.

Q.

Did you get a degree?

A.

BS in Psychology.

Q. And what did you do next?

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How long?

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Q.

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A. Yes. After much prodding I did and went to Antioch university.

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I left L.A. and started my horse breeding program.

Q.

Is that what you've been doing since?

A. Yes.

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Q. And where do you do that, ma'am? A.

In Palmdale.

Q.

Going back to when you were with Dr. Klein, is that when you first met Mr. Jackson?

A. Yes.

How did that happen?

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Q.

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A. Dr. Klein needed -- when he would see a high profile patient for the first time, sometimes he would do it after hours or on a weekend. He'd called me on a Sunday. It's actually kind of a cute story. He asked me to come in, and I said, "I'm with my family." My niece was little at the time. I think she was two or three. He said, "Well, it's really important. I promise I won't keep you long." I tried everything I could to not go in. I wanted to wait until during the week. Anyway, I went in. When we came in, Dr. Klein referred to us as nurses. Even though we were not RN's, we weren't real nurses, registered nurses; he called us nurses instead of assistants. One of the things that we would do is we would give him his coat.

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He'd put his coat on, and he had a habit of putting seven pens in his pocket. I gave him his coat. When I walked in and I went into the room where the patient was and I opened the door and Michael was there and I introduced myself, I said, "Nobody does what you do better. Nobody." I said, "You are amazing, but nobody does what I do better. I am amazing. And if we could do these amazing things at a regular time," I said, "I'd just so appreciate it because I have so little time with my niece as it is." I would work long hours. And so he laughed about it, and that's kind of when the friendship started also.

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Q. And what year was this, ma'am? A.

'82 or '84, I think.

Q.

So you'd been there about six years at that point, six or eight?

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A. Yes.

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No.

Q.

So this was his first visit?

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Q. Was he already a patient?

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A. That I was aware of.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to why he was there? A. Are we allowed to talk about patient, physician type of -Judge: Yes, yes. Acne.

Mr. Putnam:

So that's why he came to see Dr. Klein at that point?

A. Yes. Q.

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The witness:

Did he continue as a patient?

A. Yes.

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Q. And until when?

My understanding was up until he passed away.

Q.

So he continued from '82 or '84 right until he passed to see Dr. Klein, that's correct?

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A.

A. Yes. Q.

Now you said you started to have a friendship. That started right away?

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A. I was -- Dr. Klein would call me probably the least professional assistant they had because I'm not -- I'm very casual. I'm not a formal person. I'm probably not the person you want to tell you -- I am actually the person if you have skin cancer if it's not bad. But I'm not -- I'm a great hand holder, but I'm not someone to sit down and have a scientific discussion where he had other assistants who were. So I think Michael appreciated the casualness that way.

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Q. And did Mr. Jackson keep coming in after that point for his acne? A. Yes. Q. And did you keep working with him in Dr. Klein's office?

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A. Yes. Q.

How frequently would he come in during this time period? This is the late '80s.

Q. When was that, ma'am? I don't remember. I'd have to see his chart.

Q.

I've seen it reported that it was 1986. Does that sound --

A.

Probably.

Ms. Chang:

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A.

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A. Not very often. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with Lupus that it became -- he came in more frequently.

I don't want to argue, but I think it's 1983.

Mr. Putnam:

Okay.

I just want the record to be accurate.

The witness:

I told you I was terrible at dates.

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Ms. Chang:

Mr. Putnam: And I'm the bad one apparently. When did you start becoming friends with Mr. Jackson? Was that immediate, or was it over time?

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A. Probably over a couple of years before we started hanging out outside of being -- him coming in and being a patient? Q. Yes, ma'am.

Probably two years, three years.

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A.

Q. And then you'd hang out outside of the office? A. Yes, and we would speak on the phone quite often. How long did that continue, ma'am?

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Q.

Regularly?

Q.

Uh-huh.

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A.

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A.

Until we were divorced.

Q.

I was going to get there. Did a time come where your relationship became more serious?

A. Yes.

so n

Q. And when was that, ma'am?

In 1996 -- well, okay. Are you talking serious meaning we got married, or are you talking serious?

Q.

Let's say married.

A.

Serious married. We were married in '96.

Q. And how long were you married, ma'am?

Q.

So until 1999?

A.

I think so.

ae lJa

A. Three years.

ck

A.

Q. And is that when you then moved to Palmdale? No. I didn't move to Palmdale until 2002.

Q.

Now during that entire time, did Mr. Jackson keep coming in as a patient?

M ich

A.

A. Yes.

Q. And did you work with him whenever he came in?

am

A. Yes.

Q. You said initially you were treating him for acne. Did it develop that you began treating him for other things as well? Lupus and Vitiligo.

Te

A.

Q. And you mentioned Botox, and you mentioned Collagen. Was he receiving those as well? A.

Later on.

w.

Q. And when was that, ma'am? A.

I'd have to see the chart. Honestly, I don't remember. I'm not really good with dates. I need to see.

ww

Q. Was it in the '80s, you think?

.C om

A. I don't remember when Collagen was approved by the FDA so -- I know for sure it was during the Dangerous tour. So that would be '92, '93.

A.

If that's when the tour was. I don't remember. Like I said, I don't remember dates.

Q.

Okay.

so n

Q.

A. You can keep repeating them to me, and I'm going to -- I'm just not good with the years. I don't mean to be a pain, but I can't -- you know, I can tell you a situation. I can't tell you a date.

A.

Okay.

A.

For acne scars, yes.

Q. And what about Botox? A.

ae lJa

Q. Was he receiving Collagen before the tour?

ck

Q. That was '92 and '93?

No. Botox wasn't available until the mid '90s, I believe.

A. That's Collagen. Q.

M ich

Q. And what about other things like fillers of any type?

So that was the first one he received was Collagen?

A. To my knowledge, that was the only one.

am

Q. Now when he got these procedures, was he given anything else like an anesthetic or any kind of painkiller at the time? Not in the beginning.

Q.

So he'd have a treatment and would have no painkiller initially?

A. Q.

Te

A.

Correct.

So you'd inject Collagen directly with nothing for the pain?

w.

A. I think we did once or twice. Q. And was that also true later for Botox?

ww

A.

I don't remember because that was later, and the treatment was different than when he came in.

.C om

Q. Now you said initially there was no painkiller. Did a time come where you started using a painkiller when he was having the Collagen? A. Yes. Q. What type? He would get 100 milligrams of Demerol IM, which is intramuscularly.

so n

A.

Q. Were you present when that occurred? I gave the injection.

ck

A.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to why he started taking Demerol when he wasn't initially? Because of the pain from the injections. He had a very low tolerance. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Q.

Please.

A.

He has a low tolerance for pain.

ae lJa

A.

A.

For what?

Q.

For anything.

M ich

Q. Now were there other drugs that Mr. Jackson received during the time that you were working with Mr. Klein?

A. Are you -- for Lupus or for Vitiligo or for what? Q.

For pain. For pain, ma'am.

am

A. The only thing that I was aware that we gave him was right before the treatment, and it was in the beginning just 100 milligrams of Demerol. Q. Well, let me ask you about a couple others. Did he ever get Percodan?

Te

A. We never -- I never gave him Percodan. Q. Were you aware that he received Percodan? A.

No.

w.

Q. What about Valium? A.

For stuff with -- are we talking about Dr. Klein?

ww

Q. Yes, ma'am.

.C om

A.

No.

Q. What about Vicodin? Not for procedures in the office.

Q.

Did he get it for any procedures outside of the office?

so n

A.

A. There were procedures that were done by other physicians that there was -- can I explain something?

ck

Q. Yes.

Q.

ae lJa

A. Okay. Michael respected doctors immensely, that they went to school, that they studied and to do no harm. Unfortunately, some of the doctors decided that, when Michael was in pain or something, that they would try to outbid each other on who could give the better drug. And so he listened to the doctors. In this time period, ma'am, late '80s, early '90s, who were those doctors?

A. Two doctors I'm specifically speaking about are Arnold Klein and Steven Hoefflin. Q. And Dr. Klein you worked with, correct, ma'am?

Q.

M ich

A. Yes. Did you work with Dr. Hoefflin?

A. No, I did not. I went with Michael when he would have procedures done. He asked me to go to make sure that everything was okay.

A. Yes.

am

Q. You were actually there with Dr. Hoefflin when he was treating Mr. Jackson, correct?

Q. That was at Mr. Jackson's request?

Te

A. Yes. Not every single time. This started in the '90s. Q. When you said they were competing to see who could give him the best painkiller, what do you mean by that?

w.

A. Michael had had a very low pain tolerance, and his fear of pain was incredible, and I think that doctors took advantage of him that way. Q. And why do you say that, ma'am?

ww

A. Because if someone says -- comes to you and they feel that you are the best at what you do, and then someone else that you've seen who claims to be the best at what they do, who do you listen to?

.C om

Q. And so is it your testimony that Mr. Jackson was listening to his doctors as to the type of painkillers he should be receiving at the time? A. Yes. I asked you about certain painkillers.

so n

Q.

A. He had taken Percodan and Vicodin and the Valium but that was not for Collagen or acne or things like that. It was after a procedure that was done with Dr. Sasaki. So Dr. Sasaki, he treated Mr. Jackson in 1993, correct?

ck

Q.

A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q. And that was for his head? A. Yes.

Q. And how did you know that he got him Percodan, Valium, and Vicodin? A.

Because I took care of Michael after the procedure.

M ich

Q. And we've heard testimony from Dr. Sasaki said that a time came where he stopped giving Mr. Jackson pain medication and turned that over to Dr. Hoefflin and Dr. Klein. Were you aware of that? Ms. Chang:

Objection, leading and misstates evidence.

Mr. George: And it's compound, your honor.

Judge: Well, it's not leading, but it may misstate the evidence. I'm not sure. If you're referring to --

am

Mr. Putnam: What we watched yesterday afternoon, your honor. Mr. Panish: That's not what was said in the video. Judge:

Rephrase your question. Dr. Sasaki -- did you go meet with him when Mr. Jackson was being treated?

Te

Mr. Putnam: A. Yes.

w.

Q. And did a time come where Dr. Sasaki said that he was no longer going to give Mr. Jackson any more Demerol?

ww

A. He wasn't -- Dr. Sasaki is in Verdugo or Glendale. Dr. Klein, Hoefflin and Metzger were all in L.A. where Michael was. So it was difficult for him to follow what was happening post treatment with what Dr. Sasaki had done.

.C om

Q. And were you aware that a time came where Dr. Sasaki said he was not going to give Mr. Jackson any more Percocet?

so n

A. I remember when Dr. Sasaki wasn't prescribing the medication that I -- I don't know what Hoefflin was doing. I know what Dr. Klein was doing. And I was calling Dr. Metzger to make sure that it was being done the right way because it was an incredibly painful procedure he had done. Did he explain to you what he did? Q. Yes. First of all, who is Dr. Metzger? A.

Michael's Internist. He's a Rheumatologist.

ck

Q. Was he treating Mr. Jackson in the same time period?

Q.

So was Dr. Hoefflin?

ae lJa

A. Yes.

A. Hoefflin is a plastic surgeon. Dr. Metzger is his Internist and Rheumatologist for the Lupus, and Klein is a Dermatologist. Q. Were they all treating him at the same time in the early '90s? A. Yes.

M ich

Q. And were you aware that a time came where Dr. Sasaki said that he would no longer give Percocet to Mr. Jackson and would leave that to his other doctors? A. Again, because he's in Verdugo or -- I mean, he's on Verdugo or he's in the -- in the Pasadena area, it was -- Michael was in Century City. Our offices were in Beverly Hills. I used to go there every day, twice a day to see how he was when I was working and then was with him on the weekends. So I assume he didn't feel comfortable because I didn't work for Dr. Sasaki. I worked for Klein.

am

Q. And you were aware that he stopped giving him Percocet, or you were not? A.

No one announced to me that they were not doing this anymore.

A.

Te

Q. Was it ever announced to you at that time that Dr. Klein had taken over Mr. Jackson's pain management? For the surgery? Yes.

w.

Q. Yes. What about Dr. Hoefflin? Was he also taking it over, or was it just Dr. Klein at that time? A.

No. Hoefflin would call and say "I had a better drug."

ww

Q. Who would he call? A.

Michael.

.C om

Q. And by "better drug," what do you mean? A.

Like I said before, they were competing.

Q. And was Dr. Metzger competing as well? No, that's why I called Dr. Metzger.

so n

A.

Q. What do you mean by that, ma'am?

ck

A. I was concerned that he was not getting better, and that the two doctors were going back and forth, and I needed one person to talk to me. Q. And -I chose Metzger.

ae lJa

A.

Q. Was this in your role as Mr. Jackson's friend or as someone who worked for Dr. Klein? A. Obviously as a friend because probably not a good idea if you work for one doctor to rat him out to another doctor. Q. And when you say "rat him out," what did you tell Dr. Metzger at that time?

M ich

A. Klein was not doing what was best for Michael. The only person -- the only physician who ever did anything, the only physician that ever cared for Michael was Alan Metzger. Q.

Dr. Metzger continued as Mr. Jackson's personal physician until the time of his passing, right?

A. Well, I don't know because Conrad Murray got in there and killed him, so I don't know.

am

Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Metzger was also working with Mr. Jackson at the time of his passing? A.

I don't know.

A.

Te

Q. Now in terms of these drugs we were talking about, Ms. Rowe, the Percocet, Percodan, Valium and Vicodin -I don't remember the Vicodin.

w.

Q. You don't remember that at all. You said those were from Dr. Sasaki, correct? A. Yes, originally, and the Demerol.

ww

Q. And the Demerol. Then were they prescribed by somebody else? A. Kind of bouncing back and forth on the story. Can I tell you the story?

.C om

Q.

Please.

ck

so n

A. After the burn, Michael had a huge amount of scarring on the top of his head, on the crown. Because he's black, he developed keloids. Keloids are extremely painful, thickening scars. He didn't want to wear the hairpiece anymore, and he needed to have something done with the keloids. We were injecting them which is extremely painful to have done. It wasn't really working. And so Dr. Klein had suggested doing what's called a tissue expander. You cut a pocket underneath the skin, and you put in, like, a saline balloon. Every week Michael would go in, and they would inject 100 cc's, 200 cc's, whatever it called for, and it would expand the tissue on his head. So in addition to the scar tissue breaking down from the pressure of having this injected, the procedure itself was painful. Going in every week and having this balloon injected was extremely painful. It hurt up until probably the day before he had to go in for more, and that was how they figured out how much more they could put in. He had this in his scalp for a while. So he was battling -- his sensitivity to pain was just off the charts at that point. Is that why he started receiving the various painkillers we talked about?

A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q.

Q. And you said you were worried about that, worried about what Dr. Klein was doing and worried about what Dr. Hoefflin was doing. What exactly were you worried about? A.

Overprescribing medication.

M ich

Q. When you say "overprescribing," he needed it for the pain, did he not? A. He did, but you don't -- you don't call someone and say "here, let's take Dilaudid instead of taking aspirin when the whole idea is to try to get you off the medication. In the middle of it, you can't do it. So at the end of it, that's when you do it. But these idiots were going back and forth the whole time, not caring about him.

am

Q. What is Dilaudid? A.

It's a form of had Heroin -- Morphine, Morphine. Heroin is the street name. Sorry.

Q. Was he taking that at the time as well?

Q.

No, because I took it away.

Te

A.

So he had been taking it, but then you took it away from him?

w.

A. He hadn't been taking it. Hoefflin gave it to him. The bottle was sitting on the counter. And I said, "you're not taking this." Q. Was that during the same time period, ma'am?

ww

A. Yes.

.C om

Q. Why did you take it away?

A. You can't take everything -- you have to listen to one doctor. But you have to understand, he was so afraid of the pain because the pain was so great. Q.

Now did you talk to Mr. Jackson about your concern?

so n

A. Yeah. Q. And what did you say to him?

ae lJa

Q. Was this the Dangerous tour, ma'am, in '92?

ck

A. I ended up being with him all the time until this procedure was over. I think he had to start rehearsing for tour, and I worked. I couldn't go down. I think he was in the Santa Monica, I think, was where they rehearsed.

A. Yes.

Q. So he had the procedure. He was taking these drugs. He continued to take them. You were concerned about the amount. And then you couldn't be with him all the time because he started to go to rehearsal?

M ich

A. Dr. Metzger had laid out a plan to reduce the Demerol dosage and change the painkillers more to Torbutrol, non-narcotic medication, t-o-r-b-u-t-r-o-l. Q. And what exactly was that plan, if you know? A.

I'm sorry.

Q. You said Dr. Metzger had a plan? Right.

am

A.

Q. To reduce the medication? A.

Correct.

Te

Q. What was that plan?

A. To ween him off of the narcotic onto a non-narcotic because he was leaving to go on tour. So this was something he wanted to do before Mr. Jackson left to go on the Dangerous tour?

w.

Q.

A. Yes.

ww

Q. A.

How were you aware of that? Because I was the one who was giving the medication to Michael at the time.

.C om

Q. And by "medication," are you talking about the drugs we were already talking about? A. Yes. Q. And when you say you were with him, where were you with him?

so n

A. He had had a place in Century City. I worked in Beverly Hills. I would be there every day at lunchtime to take him lunch. And then, before I went home at night, I'd stop by to see him if he needed anything, to see how he was feeling. And then, if he needed me, I'd come back over. I lived in the Valley.

Until he was taken for the tour.

Q. Was it a month? Was it three months? A.

I want to say six weeks.

ae lJa

A.

ck

Q. And for how long did that last?

Q. Now we talked about painkillers in this time period up until about '93. I'm going to leave that -'92, '93. I'll leave that for a moment if I can. Okay.

Q.

I'm going to try and do the whole thing chronologically. Are you familiar with the drug Diprivan?

M ich

A.

A. Yes.

Q. And why are you familiar with that drug? Because it's used as part of anesthesia.

Q.

Do you also know it by the name of Propofol?

A.

I didn't know anything about Propofol.

Q.

Do you know now they are the same drug?

Te

am

A.

A. I know now they are the same drug. I didn't know that. I haven't set foot in a doctor's office or a pharmacy since I left Dr. Klein's office. But at the time you were working with Dr. Klein, you were aware of the drug Diprivan, right?

w.

Q.

A. Yes.

ww

Q.

In this time period, did Mr. Jackson ever use Diprivan?

Ms. Chang:

Objection to the form of that question, "use Diprivan." It was infused, Diprivan, by an

.C om

Anesthesiologist. Judge:

Sustained.

Mr. Putnam: Was he given Diprivan during this time period?

so n

A. Yes, for short periods of time. Q. When was the first time you observed Mr. Jackson given Propofol?

Q. And do you remember the procedure, ma'am? I think we were doing Collagen.

ae lJa

A.

ck

A. It was for a procedure. I don't know if it was Dr. Hoefflin's office first or if it was our office. Ours meaning Dr. Klein's office.

Q. And was it common for Dr. Klein or Dr. Hoefflin to give Diprivan, Propofol when he was given Collagen? A.

Depending who the patient was.

Q.

Some patients it occurred?

M ich

A. Yes. Klein did a handful of patients. I don't know about Hoefflin. Q. Was it sometime prior to the Dangerous tour, '92, '93? I don't think so.

Q.

Let's start with Dr. Hoefflin.

A.

Okay.

Q.

How many times were you present when Mr. Jackson was given Diprivan by Dr. Hoefflin?

A.

Probably over the years, probably ten times.

am

A.

A.

No, he had an Anesthesiologist. Do you know who that was?

w.

Q.

Te

Q. And would Dr. Hoefflin give it himself?

A.

I do not remember the name. In a surgical suite. He had a surgical suite at his office.

ww

Q. Was Mr. Jackson always given the Diprivan when he was having a procedure with Dr. Hoefflin? A. When I went, when Michael asked me to come, yes. He was having scars injected which is

.C om

extremely painful.

Q. And you say when you went. Were you aware of him getting Diprivan from Dr. Hoefflin at any other time? If I -- well, that's --

Ms. Chang:

Objection --

so n

A.

That's kind of a bad question. You know, it's like when did you stop beating your wife,

Mr. Putnam:

I kind of do have to ask it.

Can you ask it differently.

Q.

I will ask it differently.

A.

Sorry.

ae lJa

A.

ck

The witness: you know.

Q. Other than the times you were with Mr. Jackson at Dr. Hoefflin's office, were you aware that there were other times that Mr. Jackson received Diprivan at Dr. Hoefflin's office?

Judge:

Objection, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

Sustained.

Mr. Putnam:

M ich

Ms. Chang:

Did Mr. --

Judge: When there is an objection, don't answer it. I can rule on it. And if I overrule it, that means you can answer. If you just hear them talking, stop talking.

Judge:

Okay.

am

The witness:

I sustained the objection to that one. You don't have to answer.

The witness:

Thank you.

A.

Te

Mr. Putnam: Did Mr. Jackson ever tell you that he was getting Diprivan at other times at Dr. Hoefflin's office? If he had a procedure done, yeah. Yes.

w.

Q. Did he ever tell you that he was having Diprivan at Dr. Hoefflin's office when he wasn't having a procedure done?

ww

A. No. However, there were occasions that Michael wanted to have -- had extensive scarring in his nose and made it difficult for him to breath. When injected with steroid, it brings the swelling down. To be injected in the nose is probably -- I can't think of anything more painful. And there were, on

.C om

occasion, that Michael asked Hoefflin to do that. He put Michael out. Didn't do anything but put tape on him as if he had treated him when he hadn't. Does that make sense? Judge:

I didn't understand that. Are you saying he didn't actually give him --

The witness:

He didn't treat him. He put him to sleep.

The witness:

Correct.

But then didn't do anything.

ck

Judge:

so n

Judge: With the Propofol or Diprivan?

ae lJa

The witness: Then he would tape him as if he had injected him, and then Michael would be woken up. It took him a little bit to wake up after Hoefflin had put him under anesthetic -- four, five hours to wake up which I think is normal for plastic surgeons. I'm not an Anesthesiologist, so I don't know who his Anesthesiologist or Anesthetist was different than David, because when David Fournier woke him up, when we were done, it was maybe an hour for Michael to recover. And then we could take him home. But with Hoefflin, it was -- I was there four, five, six hours. Mr. Putnam: Now did you have an understanding as to why he did this? Why he gave him the Propofol and didn't do a procedure? He said he didn't see the scarring and that he wasn't going to do it.

Q.

Did he tell Mr. Jackson that he had done the procedure?

M ich

A.

A. Yes. Q.

How often did that happen?

A.

I know of two occasions.

am

Q. And you said that you were aware of about ten times where Mr. Jackson had Propofol with Dr. Hoefflin where you were present, correct? A.

Over a period of years. You make it sound like -- I knew Mike forever.

Te

Q. And were procedures performed every time you were with Dr. Hoefflin when you were there?

w.

A. Except for those two times. But a procedure could be a proper -- what you would call a proper surgery where something is done, like, the cutting of tissue as opposed to just the injection of the Cortisone. You still call them procedures but there is -- it's different. It's a procedure, but you can't just say "procedure." You have to look to see what was done, big procedure, little procedure. Q. Well, did he have Propofol when he had little procedures?

ww

A.

Only with the injections for scarring around the nose.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have Propofol?

A.

Diprivan.

Q.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have Diprivan?

so n

A. The times that I went to see him with Hoefflin, he was -- he was put under.

.C om

Q.

Q. You mentioned Mr. Fournier? A. Yes.

ck

Q. Who is that?

Q. And would he do that in the office?

ae lJa

A. He's a nurse Anesthetist that works for different doctors in Beverly Hills, and he would come to the office with all the equipment to monitor Michael if Michael were going to be put to sleep, if we were doing a lot of stuff.

A. It was allowed to do it in the office until, I believe, 1996 when the law changed and it was forbidden. Q. Then what happened?

M ich

A. Then we -- it was done in a surgical center with -- I was only there with Dave. I don't know of any other Anesthesiologist that did it. I don't remember Hoefflin's if he's an M.D. I don't remember his name. I couldn't point him out if he were sitting in here because I don't -- I absolutely don't remember him. But I'd known David for a long time. He has actually testified here.

A.

Oh, has he? He's a nice guy. Like that matters. I'm sorry.

Q.

So would he always be the Anesthesiologist who would work on Mr. Jackson?

A.

He's a nurse anesthetist.

am

Q.

Te

Q. Would he always work with Mr. Jackson when Mr. Jackson came to Dr. Klein's office and have Diprivan? A. Yes.

w.

Q. And then, after the law changed, he would go to a surgical center and provide the Diprivan? A.

Correct.

ww

Q. And were you always there when that occurred?

.C om

A. Yes.

Q. What types of procedures would Mr. Jackson have the Diprivan for with Dr. Klein? A.

It was when we were injecting Collagen if we had to do acne treatments.

A.

so n

Q. Now was it common in Dr. Klein's office for someone to take Diprivan when they were having Collagen? He had a handful of patients that did.

A.

ck

Q. When you say "handful," how many? Five or six.

A.

ae lJa

Q. What about for Botox? Same.

Q. Were you ever aware of Mr. Jackson going to Dr. Hoefflin's to have Diprivan so he could sleep? No.

Q.

It was something you were never aware of?

A.

No.

M ich

A.

Q. What about to go because he was stressed and wanted to have some Diprivan? Were you ever aware of him doing that? A.

No.

Mr. George: it's shown.

am

Q. I'm going to show some of the deposition if I can. It's from the insurance deposition. It is page 145, 24 through 8. Objection, your honor. I just want to make sure this is for impeachment purposes before

Te

Judge: Agreed. What are we using -- it's either impeachment or refreshing recollection. If it's not one of those two, I'm not sure why we're showing the depo. Mr. Putnam:

It's to impeach, your honor. Do you want me to try to refresh, first?

w.

Judge: You need to ask a question. Mr. Putnam:

ww

Mr. Panish:

I asked a question. She said that never occurred.

It's no different than the testimony.

.C om

Ms. Chang: Your honor, I don't know if you want us to speak in front of -- or have a sidebar. Judge:

Let's have a sidebar then.

Mr. Panish: We can say it out loud. That's what they are doing. Let's go to sidebar.

Mr. Panish:

He just said that out loud. That's not true what he said.

so n

Judge:

ck

Judge: It's a few minutes before 12:00. Maybe we don't need to do the sidebar. I'll let you go early, and we'll talk about it. I'll see you at 1:30.

Judge:

ae lJa

(The following proceedings were held in open court outside the presence of the jury) Do we need the witness to be excused?

Ms. Chang:

Counsel might need to be here.

Mr. Panish:

Can she go in the jury room?

Pardon?

Mr. Panish:

Can she go in the jury room now while her lawyer is here.

The witness:

M ich

Judge:

With the jury?

Judge: You're excused for lunch. Mr. Panish:

No, no, no. Not with the jury. The jury left.

am

Judge: Why don't you go to the jury room. We're going to have a discussion, and then your attorney will meet with you after. Mr. Panish: Yeah, the jurors are not in there. Let's talk about this depo.

Te

Judge:

Mr. Putnam:

I wasn't clear what you were trying to use it for.

w.

Judge:

Sure, your honor.

Mr. Panish: Why don't reread the question back that he asked, and then that's where we should start.

ww

Ms. Chang:

Mr. Panish:

Do you want to hear? Let's let him read -- I'd suggest we read Mr. Putnam's question.

n.C om

Judge:

I could have missed it, but I didn't get there was either lack of memory or --

Mr. Panish:

I think to set the stage, we should first read his question if that's okay.

Judge: That's a good suggestion. Why don't we go ahead and read. (record read)

Judge:

lJa ck so

Mr. Panish: So the question was, were you aware of him going to Dr. Hoefflin, I assume, to get Diprivan for stress. For stress. Okay.

Mr. Panish: And then the deposition -Judge:

Or sleep.

ae

Ms. Chang: And then, your honor, turning to the page and line that Mr. Putnam stated, this is first, for the record, the Lloyds of London case at which neither side was there. I think Mr. George was the only person there that is in this room. But it states -- what was there was -- the question was -- they are reading from a statement from I think it was a federal agent. She claimed that Michael -Mr. Panish: The Coroner.

ich

Ms. Stebbins: Summary of the interview between Ms. Rowe and the Coroner, summarizing what was attributed to Mr. Rowe.

mM

Ms. Chang: I guess she talked about it to a Federal agent before, but this was to the Coroner. It says "The question is 'she claimed that Michael would be stressed and would want the drugs to sleep and keep him calm,' end quote. Is that an accurate statement?" "Yes." "And what drugs were you referring to when you advised this to the Coroner's investigator?" "To whatever Hoefflin was using for anesthesia." Then he goes to another question. The question is not the precise question because he may want it but whether he got it. That's a different issue. It's like, you know, she claimed that Michael would be stressed and would want the drugs to sleep and keep him calm. I don't know.

Te a

Mr. George: If I can add, your honor. The reason why I don't think it's impeaching at all is because her testimony seems to be consistent. He utilized these drugs only for purposes of these treatments. I don't think there is anything that suggests otherwise. I don't think that that passage does. Mr. Putnam: That's the question, your honor. She supposedly gave a statement to the Coroner that Mr. Jackson would use drugs?

w.

Judge:

ww

Mr. Putnam: When he was stressed, he would want drugs to sleep and keep him calm. She was asked if that's true. She said, "Yes." That's her statement. "What drugs?" She said, "Hoefflin's anesthesia." Ms. Chang:

No. She said -- she didn't know. First of all, she said whatever -- "to whatever Hoefflin

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was using for anesthesia."

Ms. Stebbins: There is another statement, your honor, from the deposition in our case. This is page 64, line -Mr. Panish:

Let's stick on this first.

Ms. Chang:

I'm sorry. What line?

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Ms. Stebbins: Just in terms of whether her testimony is consistent on the subject. She was also asked about her statements to the Coroner and here it's --

Ms. Stebbins: 64 starting at line 22. "Okay. Can you recall" -- in going through the different things obviously from the report. "Can you recall discussing with the agents Dr. Hoefflin's quote, 'Put Michael down with prescription drugs,' end quote, for periods of up to six or seven hours?" answer, "Yes." question, "And what do you mean by that when you said it?" answer, "To sleep." question, "Put him to sleep. And would he do it in his office?" Doctor was interrupted. Answer, "Yes, he had a surgical center though." question, "Got it." answer, "He was a plastic surgeon. Now he's just crazy."

Mr. Panish:

ae

Judge: Well, the problem with putting someone to sleep, that's colloquial for putting somebody under anesthesia. It's also --

mM

Judge: Well, okay.

ich

Ms. Stebbins: What I was getting to, your honor, the next one, "At that point would Michael would be down for those hours these times you were talking about?" answer, "Yes." "Was he having any procedure done during those times?" answer, "No." "Was he trying to get some sleep?" answer, "Yes."

Ms. Stebbins: That's what she testified in the other depo. I think that there is -- at the very least, maybe she was confused by the question. There does seem to be inconsistency here.

Te a

Mr. George: I'd ask a proper foundation be laid because I don't think there is any personal knowledge that she has of any instance of that. If she doesn't, then it's obviously all hearsay. I think that's the appropriate question, and I don't think any of this is impeaching. Mr. Panish: Also a statement the Coroner alleges. That's hearsay. Judge: The Coroner -- posing what she said to the Coroner. She said it. She was asked.

w.

Mr. Putnam:

ww

Mr. Panish: You have to bring the Coroner in then to say she said that. That's just the whole thing with Mr. Ortega we were talking about. Ms. Stebbins:

She adopted it and said it was an accurate statement what she told the Coroner.

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Judge: Try to lay a little bit of foundation because it's not clear she would have knowledge of that. But if she does, then I'll let you read from it. Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor.

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LUNCH……………………..

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors): Judge:

Good afternoon, everybody. Let's continue with the direct examination.

Mr. Putnam:

Thank you, your honor.

Hello, Ms. Rowe. How are you?

A.

I missed you, it's been so long.

ich

Q.

ae

Continued direct examination by Mr. Putnam:

Q. I missed you, too. Only an hour and a half. So when we left, we were talking about Mr. Jackson going to various doctors, and Dr. Hoefflin, and Dr. Klein, and getting Diprivan during procedures. Correct.

mM

A.

Q. And I want to continue from there. Was there ever a time that you came to understand that Mr. Jackson sought the help of doctors and taking Diprivan so he could sleep? No. He talked to Dr. Metzger about that.

Te a

A.

Mr. Putnam:

All right. Could I approach the witness, your honor?

Judge: You may.

I'll be showing her her deposition. And it is page 67, line 18, through 68-6, in this

w.

Mr. Putnam: case. Ms. Chang:

ww

Mr. Putnam: Ms. Chang:

67 -Line 18.

Line 18. Ms. Cahan: Does the court need a copy of the transcript? I'd be happy to bring

Judge: Yes. The witness: Mr. Putnam:

Everybody gets a copy but me. I'm coming to you. Sorry. May I, your honor?

The witness: Mr. Putnam:

Okay. Can I start up here? Anywhere you want.

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Judge: Yes.

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one up.

Judge: The idea is you read it to yourself and then Mr. Putnam will ask you a question after you're done reading it. The witness:

You may.

ae

Mr. Putnam:

Can I ask you a question now?

The witness:

Please. Let me try to again --

mM

Mr. Putnam:

ich

The witness: That was the time that I was talking about when he -- Hoefflin had treated him, and that he had slept after Hoefflin had seen him. Because remember I told you that after Hoefflin put him out, that I don't know what that anesthesiologist used, but it took him five or six hours to wake up, whereas when he was at our office, within an hour, he was fine. So I -- there was stuff that was done except for those two times, so I think I misunderstood what you were asking me. I'm sorry.

No. I mean here.

Mr. Putnam: You misunderstood what I asked you in the deposition?

Te a

A. Yeah. I'm sorry. Because he did have trouble sleeping. We did talk about his trouble sleeping, and I know he spoke to Metzger about it. Q. And did he speak to you about it, as well? A. Yes.

w.

Q. And did he tell you that sometimes he liked to go to doctors to get -- to be put under so he could sleep?

ww

A.

It was that he got sleep after he had a procedure done.

Q. And would he ever say to you, "I want to go get a procedure done so I can get some sleep"?

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No.

Q.

No. So that testimony right here wasn't quite right, then?

A.

No. I misunderstood. I'm sorry.

Q.

Okay. That's all right.

A.

Do you want me to keep this?

Q.

I'm going to come get it, if I can.

A.

It's yours. A.

Q.

So it doesn't refresh your recollection, in fact, what you say is this is wrong, correct?

A.

I misunderstood what you had said. I'm sorry.

Okay. That's all right. Your honor, if I can show it --

ae

Mr. Putnam:

Gift.

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A.

The witness: I'm sorry. Well, I read it. Go ahead. But seeing it doesn't make me understand then what I misunderstood then. You know what I mean?

Mr. Putnam: Mr. Panish: present.

Okay.

ich

The witness:

That's what -- we're going to talk about that, exactly that. I absolutely understand.

So, your honor, if we could please show 67, line 18, through 68-6.

mM

Mr. Putnam:

We just have the same objection we raised with the court, Plaintiffs' counsel wasn't

Judge: Through -- what's the line that you -Line 6, your honor. On 68, we'll go to 14, actually, if we may, your honor.

Te a

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

Pardon?

Mr. Putnam:

I was going to say I'm not sure that really takes care of it, let's keep going. Okay.

w.

Judge:

Can we go to 14?

Ms. Chang:

Just for clarity and completeness, your honor, should we go further, to --

ww

Judge: Where do you want to go to? Ms. Chang: That's all right.

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Judge:

Okay. Go ahead.

(The following videotaped deposition testimony was played):

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Q. And do you have an understanding that Mr. Jackson would seek the help of doctors to -- to get some sleep? A.

Not until we became friends.

Q.

Okay. And when you became friends, did you then come to have that understanding?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Did he ever discuss it with you?

A.

Only when I was there.

Sometimes.

ich

A.

ae

Q. Okay. And on those occasions, would he say to you, "Hi. I've got to get some sleep. Will you come to me while I get some sleep at a doctor's office?"

Q. And did those include the three times outside of the States that we discussed? I insisted on that.

Q.

Why did you insist on that?

A.

I wanted to make sure he woke up.

Q.

So you insisted on being present because you wanted to make sure he woke up?

A.

Yes.

Te a

mM

A.

The witness: You weren't talking -- but you weren't talking about out of the country. You were back with Hoefflin. That's here in the United States.

w.

Mr. Putnam: I completely agree, ma'am. And I'm going to get to that point about outside the country. I'm going to ask --

ww

The witness: Judge:

But you didn't. You just did it now. That's like --

Ms. Rowe, let him ask you the questions.

Mr. Putnam: Mr. Panish:

I'm sorry.

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The witness:

I was trying to show that so I didn't have to show it later. I was jumping ahead. I would move to strike counsel's reasons for --

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Judge: Motion granted. Just ask your questions and she'll answer. Mr. Putnam: All right.

Q. With Hoefflin, did you ever have that understanding? When he was going to Hoefflin, did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Jackson where he said, "I need to get some sleep so I want to go see Hoefflin"? A.

No.

Q. Never. And did he ever say to you after he went down for six or seven hours, "That's great. I needed that sleep"? No.

Q.

So that's something that never occurred in this time period?

A.

No.

ich

ae

A.

Q. That's something that occurred later? A. Yes.

Okay. So when you discussed that in your depo, you were talking about a later time period?

mM

Q.

A. Yes.

Okay. Now --

A.

But that makes me look like I'm lying.

Te a

Q.

Mr. Putnam:

No, it doesn't. They saw it.

Ms. Chang: Your honor, objection to the colloquy. Both people should not --

w.

Mr. Panish: Judge:

Ma'am, let him ask you the questions.

ww

Mr. Panish:

But counsel shouldn't be -- he knows better.

Counsel, you ask questions, she'll answer.

Mr. Putnam: Mr. Panish:

Sorry. I will get there, ma'am. Okay? So in this time period – He just did it again.

The witness: What time period are you talking about?

The witness:

With Hoefflin and Dr. Klein in the early '90's. So you're taking about 199- --

Mr. Putnam:

-- -3.

The witness:

Okay.

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Mr. Putnam:

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Judge:

Q. In that time period, that is when Mr. Jackson went to Dr. Hoefflin's office -- correct? -- on several occasions and was put under for six or seven hours, but had no procedures? No.

ae

A.

Q. When did that occur?

ich

A. He was put down for a procedure which didn't take longer than an hour, much less time than an hour, but for whatever reason, the anesthesiologist that treated him at Dr. Hoefflin's office -- Michael slept longer than when Dave Fournier put him to sleep at Dr. Klein's office.

mM

Q. And did you ever ask Dr. Hoefflin why Mr. Jackson was being put under for six or seven hours for a shorter procedure? A. I sat in recovery with him. He wasn't put to sleep. He didn't have the I.V.'s running when he was in recovery. Q.

So when you say "down for six or seven" --

Q.

Te a

A. He had -- asleep. It was -- after you have a procedure done, when you have surgery, you go into a recovery room. So in --

w.

A. For whatever reason, when he was with Dr. Hoefflin, he was in a recovery room for five to six hours, as opposed to being in the office where I worked for an hour. I don't know the difference in how those two people sedated Michael.

ww

Q. And that was my question. Did you ask them why he was sedated for that period of time that seemed to be longer? A.

No.

No.

Q.

Did you ever ask Mr. Jackson why?

A.

No.

Q.

Did it concern you at all?

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A.

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Q. And did Dr. Hoefflin ever tell you why he was under for longer?

A. No. He was going in for valid things. It wasn't like he was going in every week. And I apologize for being nasty. I'll be fine in a minute. Q.

Okay.

A. But you make it sound like he was going in all the time, and he wasn't. You're talking about a -like a 12-year period there. Q.

How often was he going in?

ich

Q. And that was with Dr. Hoefflin?

ae

A. It depended on if he was -- the scalp surgery was completely different than the time where he was recovering after a procedure on his nose. If scar tissue is developing, and it affects his breathing, sometimes it was every six months, sometimes it was sooner than that.

A. Yes.

mM

Q. And in this same time period, in the early '90's, how often was he seeing Dr. Klein? A.

In the early '90's, not really that often.

Q. And what do you mean by that?

Te a

A. The acne programs, the patients came in for the initial visit, then it was six weeks after that, another six weeks, four weeks after that, unless they were on accutane, which required blood work every month, and other things. Q. And in this period of time, was Mr. Jackson getting Diprivan when he saw Dr. Klein?

w.

A. Not for that, no. It was when the Collagen started; and unless I can find out when Collagen was approved by the FDA, I could not tell you when we started, unless you have a chart for me to look at the date for when we used Dave Fournier. Because we tried not using an anesthesiologist, and that was when Klein had suggested to use the Demerol.

ww

Q. And why was that? A. To -- for the pain from the injections.

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Q. And was there a reason not to use the Diprivan and to use Demerol instead?

A. Because in the -- after his scalp surgery was when the -- the issue with his pain became more of a problem. His fear of the pain, I believe, became the bigger issue because he didn't have that in the early '90's. It -- the Demerol that he got was -- was enough,and he didn't come in for Collagen except if he were going to do a performance or if he were going to have an appearance someplace.

A.

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Q. Mr. Jackson would get Diprivan, however, when he got the Collagen -- is that correct? -- with Dr. Klein? Later on, yes, after the scalp surgery.

Q. And did I understand correctly that is because it was painful? A. Yes.

Q. Did you believe him when he told you that he thought it was painful and therefore, he wanted Diprivan?

Mr. Putnam:

May I approach, your honor?

Judge: Yes, you may. Mr. Putnam:

ae

Klein was injecting him in his lower eyelid. Yeah, I believed him.

ich

A.

And I'm looking at pages 65-20 through 66-10.

mM

Ms. Chang: Your honor, can we just have the question re-read? Because I'm just unclear as to time, if they're both talking about the same time in the question and in this -The witness: We weren't, Mr. -- we weren't, Marvin we weren't. Because remember I said the beginning --

Te a

Mr. Putnam: So this is about the later period? A. Yes. Q.

No. It's just that -- obviously, I look terrible, but --

w.

A.

Perfect. I'll take it back. I won't show it.

Q. Was --

ww

A.

He wasn't -- maybe this would help you.

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Q. Thank you.

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A. In the beginning, when we did the Collagen, we were doing this area here. This is -- this is called the Nasolabial folds. His pain was up here because of the scarring, and it would turn black and blue, which it -- it can happen. But when we did the acne scars, that didn't really bother him. When he would lose weight and this would come up -- because he started to lose weight like if he was working out because he was getting ready to go on tour. He would lose like ten pounds because he was working out, and he lost like eight or nine pounds of water almost every -- every show he did. His shows were so physical. So this would -- he felt it made him look older; so when we did the scars, which is how we start doing Collagen in the beginning, those didn't hurt because they were on the outside part of the face. It's when you get to here and you inject in the eyes here and around here and -- well, not so much here, but it does hurt. So we didn't start doing this part, the center of the face, until later, and then -- I mean, we can pick a date and -- when you'd say okay. Are we talking early '90's -- like before '94? -and then whenever the tour started. Q. Well, we're talking about "Dangerous", it was '92, '93.

A. Okay. "Dangerous" wasn't Collagen for this. I would have to look at the charts, but it wasn't for the Nasolabial folds, it was for acne scarring. So for "Dangerous," he was only doing -- coming in for acne scarring?

ae

Q.

A. Acne treatments and management of the Lupus.

ich

Q. And in that time period, was he also doing Diprivan with Dr. Klein? A.

No. It would have been Hoefflin, I believe. I would have to look at the chart.

Q.

So in that time period, you're only aware of him doing that with Dr. Hoefflin?

mM

A. He never did it with Dr. Klein with me. I was the -- I was like assigned to him, and so he was -- I can't say he was my patient because I can't practice medicine. But he was my patient; and when things were done, I was the assistant that he had. Q. And in this time period when you were assisting Dr. Klein -- and by that, I mean early '90's --

Te a

A. Yes.

Q. -- prior to '92 going on tour, Mr. Jackson was not getting Diprivan in that time period with Dr. Klein? A.

I don't believe so. I'd have to look at his chart. Do you have his chart?

w.

Q. I do not have his chart here. I'm going to try to get it tonight, though. And in this time period, though, he was getting it when you were with him with Dr. Hoefflin, correct?

ww

A.

Because he was -- those were surgical procedures.

Q. And were you aware of him getting Diprivan in this time period in -- anywhere else?

Ms. Chang:

Can I just get a year, your honor, what time period?

Mr. Putnam: Ms. Chang:

Prior to '92. Oh, prior to '92. Okay.

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No.

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A.

Mr. Putnam: Now, we had talked earlier about prescription painkillers – A. Yes. Q.

-- in this time period, and you indicated that you were concerned about his use of --

A. Okay. But now we're going to where the surgery was done on his scalp, so it was '93, '94. No. Yes. Correct? Sasaki did the surgery in '93. 1992 was the tour; '93, it was just before the third leg of the tour, so it was '93.

A.

Sasaki did the surgery?

Q.

Uh-huh.

A.

Okay.

ich

ae

Q.

mM

Q. So in this time period you'd indicated that you had a concern about his use of prescription drugs, correct? A. Because it was after the -- yes, because it was after the procedures had been done, and he was getting ready to go back on tour.

A. Q. A.

Te a

Q. And did there come a time in that time period where it was getting worse and worse, or was it always about the same? I don't remember if it was worse and worse. It wasn't getting better. It wasn't lessening. Can you recall an incident at the Sheraton hotel here in Los Angeles? Universal.

w.

Q. At universal? A. Yes.

ww

Q. Was it the Sheraton universal?

Q. And what happened?

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A. Yes, on the hill.

A. Michael had gone to see Dr. Hoefflin. Hoefflin had given him Dilaudid. And Michael called Dr. Klein, and Klein did not understand anything he was saying on the phone. So I left the office and I went to stay with him at the Sheraton.

A.

I believe it's Morphine.

Q. And can you recall when this occurred? A.

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Q. And, again, Dilaudid -- you said that's Morphine; is that correct?

I would have to look -- again, I would have to look on the chart.

Q. Was it around the time of the first allegations against Mr. Jackson? No.

Q.

No. Was it before or after that?

ae

A.

A. After.

A. That was the first time.

ich

Q. It was after that? And at this time, do you recall -- were you already concerned about Mr. Jackson's use of prescription drugs at the time, or was that the first time you became concerned?

mM

Q. And when you got there, what was he like?

A. He was heavily under the influence of whatever Hoefflin had given him, and I had -- he had the bottle on the dresser when I walked in, and I took the pills. Q. And was that the Morphine -- bottle of Morphine? It was the prescription of Dilaudid pills. But they came from –

Te a

A.

Mr. Panish:

The witness:

I don't know -- I thought it was. Can you just tell me what -- can we get a p.D.R.? It's a hydrogenated ketone of Morphine, an opiod analgesic.

w.

Ms. Stebbins:

Your honor, I object. Dilaudid is not Morphine.

Mr. Panish:

ww

Ms. Stebbins:

No, it's not. It's in the same class of drugs, but it's not the same drug.

Klein called it that. I'm not a pharmacist.

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The witness:

Mr. Panish: I'm not going to testify. But it's not Morphine. We'll get a doctor to tell you us what it is, but it's not Morphine. The witness:

Does it say what it's in the same class as?

Ms. Stebbins:

It's an opioid, so opiods are a class of --

Judge:

Sustained.

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Ms. Chang: Your honor, I'm going to object to testimony of counsel.

A. Yeah, I put them in my purse. Q.

Did you tell him you took them?

A. Yeah. Q. What did you tell him? A.

ae

Mr. Putnam: So you saw the pills there and you took them?

I said, "I'm taking these. You're fucked up." sorry. I'm sorry.

ich

Q. What did he say in response?

A. He said yeah. And I asked him if he was okay, and then I unplugged every phone in the hotel room.

mM

Q. Why was that? A.

He likes to talk on the phone. It's just one of his favorite things to do is to talk on the phone.

Q. And why didn't you want him to talk on the phone? Because you couldn't understand what he was saying, so I didn't want him to embarrass himself.

Te a

A.

Q. And how long did you stay? A.

I was there all -- all night.

w.

Q. And did you leave the next day? A. Yeah.

ww

Q. And --

A. Went to work.

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Q.

Did you have an understanding as to why he was staying at the Sheraton at that time?

A.

I don't think he told me. I don't think he told me why.

Q. And you don't think this was around the time of the first abuse case, correct?

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A. It might have been. I don't remember. Where would this have been in the tour? Which tour and where would it have been? Like first leg? Second leg? Q.

I don't know the answer to that.

A.

Because that would help.

Q.

But I do know your prior testimony; so if I can approach, this might refresh your recollection.

A. But if you remember when we did this, you didn't give me a -- a tour schedule until I asked for it at the very end of the testimony. Q. That's true. Was he on tour at this time?

ae

A. Well, no, he wasn't -- I don't think he was on tour, but I didn't -- you said just a few minutes ago was that the third leg of the tour. I didn't know that's how tours were broken up.

ich

Q. All right.

A. I just assumed it was another "History" tour, another "Dangerous" tour, another -- I didn't know it was all considered one tour. But this time at the Sheraton, can you recall when that occurred?

A.

I don't remember.

Q.

Okay. That's okay. I just want to --

A.

It might have been -- it might have been the early '90's.

Te a

mM

Q.

Mr. Putnam:

If I can approach in the hopes of refreshing, your honor?

w.

The witness: I'm trying to remember we went to a movie where there was a -- shoot. We went to a screening at universal. Mr. Putnam:

May I approach, your honor?

ww

Judge: You may. Mr. Panish:

What page? That's different.

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Ms. Chang: Your honor, she specifically states the timing of this on page 47. The witness: Ms. Chang:

Line 11.

I'm assuming you want to refresh, so show her where --

Mr. Panish: The witness: Judge:

Exactly.

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Mr. Putnam:

What other page are you showing her? Okay. So it was, yeah.

So it was -- what was the date?

Mr. Panish:

What page are you on here?

Mr. Putnam: Mr. Panish:

We're on 59, starting at 17. Wait a minute.

ae

Judge:

So let's just go to page 47.

Mr. Putnam:

This is the one from this case. Oh, sorry. Wrong --

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

Right here.

mM

Ms. Chang:

ich

Ms. Chang: Are you on the -- are you on the universal thing we're on now? Which deposition are we in?

I think you need to re-ask the question because I don't think we got the affirmative date yet.

A. Q.

Te a

Mr. Putnam: Can you recall when this incident occurred at the Sheraton hotel at universal? It was around that time, but I don't know the dates. So around the time of the first allegations of child abuse?

A. Yes.

w.

Q. And if I were to represent to you that that was in 1993, would that make sense to you? A.

Early '90's.

ww

Q. Now, I asked if this is the first time you were concerned. Was your concern at that point broader than what occurred just at the hotel?

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A. There was something else going on. Because Sasaki wasn't until -- Sasaki -- okay. I need to know -- Sasaki was '93? Q. Yes, ma'am.

Q.

So that was this time period?

A. Yeah.

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A. Okay. So I had this Sasaki thing going on, there was the -- this going on. He was getting ready for a tour -- a leg of a tour, I don't know which. And because we couldn't get a grip of the pain, we couldn't -- he was saying -- Sasaki had stepped away from managing the pain, it was left up to Klein and Hoefflin, and they were having a pissing contest over who gave the better drug.

Q. And was Mr. Jackson seeing Mr. -- Dr. Klein in this time period, as well?

A. He did -- we were doing -- we were doing the acne scars, and I would have to look to see about -like I said, about Collagen being approved to see if we were doing the Nasolabial folds. Can you recall when Mr. Jackson was preparing to go back on tour in this time period?

ae

Q.

A. When?

Do you remember that he was preparing in this time period to go back on tour?

A.

Oh, yeah.

ich

Q.

mM

Q. And when he was preparing, was he coming to see Dr. Klein in terms of seeing a doctor to help him prepare to go on tour? A. You mean to look better? Q.

Uh-huh.

Te a

A. Yeah, he was breaking out and stuff. Q. And in that time period, you mentioned that there was a contest between the two doctors. Was -A. A pissing match, not a contest. It was a pissing match. Q. All right. In this pissing match, was Dr. Klein prescribing medication in this time period?

w.

A. Yes.

Q. And what was he prescribing?

ww

A.

It would depend what Hoefflin was giving him.

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Q. What do you mean by that?

A. If Hoefflin -- okay. This is why I thought Dilaudid was Morphine, because Klein sits back on the phone, "He's giving you -- he's giving you Heroin, he's giving you Morphine," And would give me something else to take, which I do not remember which one it was; and I would just not give anything. Q. What do you mean?

lJa ck so

A. Well, I would -- he was fine the next morning. He didn't need anything, so I didn't take -- I didn't leave the Dilaudid with him, and I didn't leave whatever medication Klein gave me to take. Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson was getting medications directly from Dr. Klein in this time period? A. I don't think I stopped at Mickey Fine. I think I got it from the office, what the office had. And I know that Hoefflin's came from his office, also, there was no prescription. Q. And was Mr. Jackson getting Demerol in this time period? A.

If he was seeing Klein for acne scarring, yes.

ae

Q. And I think you mentioned this this morning, but I'll ask, what was the usual dosage that Mr. Jackson was getting in this time period?

Q. And what is Vistaril?

My understanding of Vistaril is that it's like benadryl.

mM

A.

ich

A. It started with 100 milligrams -- I'm sorry. It started with 50 milligrams, and then Klein bumped it up to 100 milligrams, and then to 100 milligrams with 50 milligrams of Vistaril.

Q. And did you have an understanding as to why he -- Dr. Klein was giving those two drugs together? A. To give less Demerol.

Te a

Q. And why was that?

A. Because Vistaril causes the medication to work more efficiently, or enhances it, or -- I don't -- I don't know what the chemical reaction is. Q.

Did Dr. Klein give Vistaril with Demerol to any other patients?

w.

A. I don't know about the Vistaril; but the Demerol, yes, he had a handful of patients that he did do that with.

ww

Q. So you know he gave them Demerol, you just don't whether he gave it in combination with the Vistaril?

Correct.

Q.

But you do know that he did that with Mr. Jackson, correct?

n.C om

A.

A. Yes. And there were times that I would take half the Demerol out and give him more Vistaril. Q. And why did you do that? Because I didn't think he needed to take that much Demerol.

lJa ck so

A.

Q. And did you ever mention to Dr. Klein that you were trying to reduce the dosage? A.

No.

Q. And why not?

A. Because he was my boss, and he was the doctor, and he didn't need to know that I'd called Dr. Metzger. Q.

In this time period, were you aware of whether Mr. Jackson was getting Fentanyl patches?

ae

A. It was after Dr. Sasaki. And I don't remember if that was part of the coming off of the Demerol or if that was during the -- to get a grip on the pain after the surgery, but I do know about the patches. So you knew he was getting them, you just don't know why?

ich

Q.

Q.

mM

A. I don't remember -- no, I know; but I don't remember where in the -- in the treatment with the scalp issue it was, if it was to get a hold of the pain. Because we couldn't get a grip on the pain because as that tissue expander gets bigger and bigger, it causes a lot more pressure, a lot more pain, it's stretching all scar tissue. So I don't remember if we couldn't get a hold of the pain there or if it was after the surgery was done to close the scalp and it had separated and it was almost like we had started all over again. So I don't remember where in this three-month treatment the was used. But you remember it was in this time period?

Te a

A. Yes.

Q. And you indicated you were reducing the dosage of Demerol. Did you think Mr. Jackson was addicted to Demerol at this point? Ms. Chang:

I'm asking her opinion, your honor. She was reducing the dosage.

w.

Mr. Putnam:

Objection; lacks foundation, calls for expert testimony.

Ms. Chang:

ww

Judge:

She's not an addiction specialist, she's not a nurse, she's not a medical expert.

She's a nurse.

She's not. She's an E.M.T.

n.C om

Ms. Chang:

Judge: Oh, that's right. Well, in E.M.T. Training, do they teach you how to treat people who have overdosed? The witness: Well, when I went, you weren't allowed to -Judge:

It wasn't part of your emergency treatment?

lJa ck so

The witness: No. We couldn't do injections, we couldn't do I.V.'s, we couldn't -- I mean, an epi pen, probably, but -- we could give injections, but I don't know that narcan -- we would have been allowed to do narcan. I think that was only paramedics at the time. Remember, I'm very old. Ms. Chang: And, your honor, because of her lack of foundation, it's also irrelevant. Judge:

Sustained.

Mr. Putnam: Let me ask, so you were reducing the dosage. How often did you do that with Mr. Jackson in this time period? If he came in more than once a week.

ae

A.

Q. And was he coming in more than once a week? He had to have, because I remember doing if.

ich

A.

Q. And can you recall how often you did that? I'm sorry?

Q.

Can you recall how often you did that in this time period?

mM

A.

A. I'd have to look in the chart, but a couple of times. The closer it got to him leaving to go on tour was more often that he came in because he -- otherwise, he would have to fly Klein to see him on tour, and that got expensive. Now, in this time period, were you concerned about any other drugs that Mr. Jackson was taking?

Te a

Q.

A. It was just the Demerol and him going on tour, and he wasn't completely off of it. And then are you going to ask me about David Forecast, or -Q. Would you like me to? Tell me about Mr. Forecast. Dr. Forecast.

w.

A. Q.

Okay.

ww

A. Michael was getting ready to go on tour, part of the tour. I don't know if it was the tour, part of the tour. It was after the Sasaki surgery. He wasn't completely off the Demerol, but he was right there. Just

n.C om

lJa ck so

-- he was on Toradol, which is a non-narcotic, and he was right there. And it was a fight to get him there, you know, because he had such fear of the pain that what would happen if we didn't catch it -because if you don't get pain before -- it's a bad cycle. If you don't catch it before it gets to a certain point, then you have to go another -- you have to go overboard, you have to go a different way. And he was doing so well, and I didn't want anything to get screwed up. And I had gone -- I talked to him and asked him how he was one morning, and he said he didn't feel good. And I said, "well, I'll just bring you soup for lunch then." and I said, "I have to see a patient, so I won't be there until later." and I got there -- since I took the late lunch, I probably would have gotten there like 1:30 or 2:00, and every -everything was gone at the house. His instruments, his clothes, everything was gone. And I called -- I think it was Evvy that was working for him. I wasn't sure if it was Evvy or Norma at the time. And I said, "everything is gone. What happened?" and she said, "he's gone on tour." and I said, "well, how could he just go on tour?" I said, "he doesn't have any of the stuff." and she said -- she sounded like it was, well, they took him, there was really nothing we can do. I mean, obviously, if he had a tour, there's nothing you can do.

ich

ae

He -- I didn't know he was leaving. So I called Dr. Metzger and told him how concerned I was. And I got a call from Dr. Metzger after I'd already gotten home from work that day, and he said that I needed to take all the medication that I had had for Michael for bringing him off the Demerol and getting him on the Toradol -- I needed to take it to this doctor at the peninsula hotel in Beverly Hills. And I said okay. Now, Dr. Metzger had written specific instructions on what medications were supposed to be given, when they were supposed to be given, and I had all of my notes that I wrote after I did -- I always called the doctor before I did something, I always made a note when I did it, I always called the doctor afterwards to let them know what was happening. I met this doctor at the peninsula, And I offered to go over everything with him; and he just grabbed the bag and said, "I know what I'm doing," and he didn't want to listen to anything I said. And I called Dr. Metzger and told him I was worried about it. And then I found out that Forecast had gone to Bangkok and the first thing did he was give Michael 100 milligrams of Demerol. And I'm like he screwed everything up that we had done.

A. Yes.

mM

Q. And the doctor that you're talking about that you met at the hotel was a guy named Dr. Forecast?

Q. I'm going to try and get us up to that point, if I can. After the Sheraton, Ms. Rowe, were there any other incidents?

Te a

A. What share --

Q. The Sheraton universal. A.

Oh, the Sheraton.

w.

Q. After that, before this incident at the peninsula, were there any other incidents like that where you went and stayed with Mr. Jackson because you were concerned with how he was doing in terms of drugs? A. That was that whole time with Sasaki, but it was postoperatively.

ww

Q. And that was the time you mentioned at the -- you went to --

But I didn't -- I stayed at the place in Century City.

n.C om

A.

Q. And how did it come to be that you went to Century City to stay with Mr. Jackson? A.

My car.

Q. Did someone call you and say you needed to be there? How was it that you knew you had to go see Mr. Jackson? Like I said, he had called Dr. Klein, didn't make any sense on the phone.

Q.

I'm sorry. I thought that was at the Sheraton universal. Did I screw that up?

lJa ck so

A.

A. There's Century City, which is an apartment, or a condo; and there's the Sheraton. Was there anything like the Sheraton? Just that one time. Q. That one time at the Sheraton? A. Yes.

ae

Q. Was there ever a time you went to stay with Mr. Jackson in Century City because you were concerned about him and -A. That was -- that was after the procedure with Gordon Sasaki, and before he was gone on tour. So this is in that same time period?

ich

Q.

A. Yes.

A.

mM

Q. And did that happen one time or two times in Century City? I was there almost every night.

Mr. Panish:

I was taking care of him postoperatively.

Te a

The witness:

I think there's some confusion.

Mr. Panish:

I think I think she testified about all this this morning, there's some confusion.

Judge: We're going over old ground, the -She said she went -- I don't want to say.

w.

Mr. Panish:

Mr. Putnam:

ww

Mr. Panish: Judge:

I'm asking you the one time or twice you went and stayed with him in Century City.

It's completely different.

Maybe you can clarify.

n.C om

Mr. Putnam:

Let me clarify.

Q. Was there an incident like at the Sheraton? A. Well, she's mad because what?

Judge:

I'm not mad.

lJa ck so

Ms. Stebbins:

Ms. Rowe, just focus on Mr. Putnam for now.

The witness: Ms. Stebbins: distracting.

It's kind of hard, though, when she's like --

Sometimes I'm just trying to give him some background information. I apologize if it's

Judge: The lawyers sometimes need to talk to each other to, help each other out, and I allow it, so -they need to help each other out. I'm sure it can be distracting, but it's not intended.

ae

Mr. Putnam: So, Century City. Were you -- you were staying with Mr. Jackson to try to help him in this time period, correct?

ich

A. Yes.

Q. And when you were helping him, was part of that you're trying to help him get off the drugs? A. At the very end of this time period before he went on tour, yes.

mM

Q. And why was that?

Because he was going on tour.

Q.

Did you talk to him about the idea you were going to try to help him get off the drugs?

A.

He knew you don't stay on. You can't do narcotics forever. He knew that.

Te a

A.

Q. And you discussed -A.

He knew he had to go on Toradol.

w.

Q. Okay. And what was the process that you went through to try to help him get off taking the drugs at that time?

ww

A. Dr. Metzger designed a plan, the amount -- diminishing the amount of medication and increasing or using other ones. Q. And did Dr. Metzger come and stay with you at any point in Century City with Mr. Jackson to try

n.C om

to help with this?

A. He saw him during the day. I don't know if Dr. Metzger went to see him at the house or the condo or if Michael went to his office. But when I was there at night, I was by myself. Q. And did you stay every night? Most nights.

Q. And why was that? A.

He was my friend.

Q. And did you think he needed your help?

lJa ck so

A.

A. Anybody who's had surgery -- yeah. At that point, we were friends. He wasn't a patient. Q. Were you staying there to help with the -- post-op, or were you there to help him try to get off the drugs? Both.

ae

A.

Q. And did Mr. Jackson understand that you were trying to help him get off the drugs?

Q. And why do you say that? A.

Because we talked about it.

mM

Q. And what did he say?

ich

A. Yes.

A.

He was worried about the pain.

Q. And did he say that he wanted to get off the drugs? I kind of don't give people that luxury of an option.

Te a

A.

Q. What do you mean by that?

w.

A. I'm probably one of the only people that said no to him; so as far as I was concerned, this is what the doctor decided, and this is what was going to be done. And he respected the doctors, and their opinions, and what they wanted with the prescription drugs, so he did what he was told to do by the doctors.

ww

Q. You mentioned that you talked to Dr. Metzger about your concern about the fact that Dr. Hoefflin and Dr. Klein were competing with each other in terms of giving drugs, correct? A. Yes. And Metzger did speak to both of them.

Did you talk to Dr. Metzger after the incident at the Sheraton?

A.

I think that triggered it.

Q. What do you mean? A. That made me call him.

n.C om

Q.

A.

lJa ck so

Q. And did you tell him that you were concerned about the fact that Mr. Jackson was taking drugs then? I was concerned about what the doctors were doing, what Klein and Hoefflin were doing.

Q. And you said that he talked to them. How do you know that?

A. He told me he was going to, and I know he got -- that Klein had received a phone call because it was -- I was working with him at the office, and it was after hours. Q. And --

ae

A. And Klein had -- I think that was when we started Vistaril with -- with using less -- trying -instead of going up -- because, like I said, we started with the 50, then it went to 100. And I think that was the point that Klein added Vistaril to using Demerol.

ich

Q. Got it. Now, how long was the program that you were using to try to get Mr. Jackson to stop taking drugs? How long did that last? A.

I think it was -- it was a three-week -- two or three weeks.

A.

I did.

mM

Q. And you said that by the time you went to the peninsula, you thought it was going well?

Q. Why was that?

Te a

A. Because he wasn't -- he was like a quarter of a patch of Demerol, it wasn't -- it may have been Fentanyl and maybe all this time I thought it was a Demerol patch and I remember incorrectly. But it was only a quarter of a patch that he had, and he was on toradol. He wasn't -- there was no injections. Q. And was he proud of himself? Was he glad? Michael wasn't a prideful person, so --

w.

A.

Did he tell you in this time period that he thought he had a problem?

A.

I told him, in Mexico City.

ww

Q.

Q. And that comes later, correct?

n.C om

A. That was this leg.

Q. In this time period when you were doing this three-week program at his apartment in Century City, did you tell him you thought he had a problem? A. I didn't say it was a problem. I said, "you're using too much of this medication, and you can't stay on it forever."

A.

He knew.

lJa ck so

Q. And he understood that you were weaning him off it, correct?

Q. And did he say that -- was he glad to be weaned off it at the end? Was he proud of that fact? Ms. Chang: Judge:

Objection; asked and answered.

Sustained; asked and answered.

ae

Mr. Putnam: Were you proud of the fact that he had managed to wean himself off it in a three-week period?

ich

A. I was relieved that he was able to take something less and that he wasn't in the pain that he was in after the surgery. Q. Are you aware of whether or not anyone else spoke to Mr. Jackson in this time period about any concerns they might have about the amount of Demerol he was taking in this time period? Dr. Metzger probably did because he designed the program.

mM

A.

Q. And did you and Dr. Metzger discuss the program, like how to implement it and what to do? A. Yes, he told me.

A. Q.

Te a

Q. Was it -- was it a difficult three weeks? It was for Michael. In what way?

w.

A. Fear of the pain. He was very restless. There was -- as you showed me in the deposition, there was a lot of stuff going on, and I had no idea anything was going on, I didn't even know he was getting ready to go on tour.

ww

Q. So when you came back to the apartment that day, and everything was gone, that came as a complete surprise? A.

I had no idea.

A. Yes. Q.

So --

n.C om

Q. And did this come at the end of that three-week period?

lJa ck so

A. But we weren't finished with everything, and that was why I was so upset that this Dr. Forecast wouldn't listen to what Dr. Metzger -- I mean, Metzger -- I didn't know who Forecast was. Forecast hadn't been in on anything that had happened over the last few months. He didn't know, but he was taking everything and being an arrogant ass about it.

Q. And I want to understand that. So you come home after three weeks, and everything is gone. You said you called someone, it was either Evvy -It was either Evvy or Norma. I don't remember who was working for him at that time.

Q.

But one of the people working for Mr. Jackson, you called them, correct?

A.

His personal assistant.

Q. And they let you know he had left?

ae

A.

A. And they said they took him to -- he left for tour.

ich

Q. And how did it come to be, then, that you met this Dr. Forecast at the peninsula hotel? I drove to the peninsula hotel.

Q.

How did you know --

A.

Dr. Metzger called me.

mM

A.

Q. And what did he say?

He said, "there's a doctor at the peninsula hotel. You need --" didn't we talk about this already?

Te a

A.

Ms. Chang: Asked and answered. Mr. Putnam:

I'm trying to understand how you got there.

w.

Ms. Chang: Objection; Asked and answered. Judge:

Sustained. It's been asked and answered.

ww

Mr. Putnam:

So you get to the peninsula.

How long were you there?

A.

Not even five minutes.

n.C om

Q.

Q. And where did you meet him? In the lobby.

Q. And was anyone else there besides this man? A.

No.

lJa ck so

A.

Q. And did you call Dr. Metzger afterwards and let him know what happened? A. Yes. Q. And did you bring Dr. Forecast something?

Q. And where did you get that material?

ae

A. I brought him the medications, I brought him the records, the copies. I brought him the plan that had been laid out that -- by Dr. Metzger, and all my notes.

ich

A. My information I have. I had a copy of the plan because Dr. Metzger had to give it to me. And I would fax him or call Metzger -- I was very obsessed about taking notes when I was doing something, especially if it was out of the office. And I took the notes, and I would fax them to Dr. Metzger; but at the end when anything was done, I would give him the original notes and they would be in his chart.

mM

Q. And this material you brought to Dr. Forecast, it was all in your possession before you brought it?

Te a

A. Yeah. It's not like it was a ton of material. It was -- it was whatever the patches were. I believe there was some Demerol, there was some toradol. I don't remember if it was injectable or if it was the pill form. And there was my notes and everything that had been done. And I made sure Metzger's number was on it, Klein's number was on it, and that both -- that it was both their home number and the office number, like the private lines and stuff. Q. And -- and had Dr. Metzger told you to bring that to this Dr. Forecast? A. Yes.

Q. And was that all the material you had been using the prior three weeks for this program?

w.

A. Yes.

ww

Q. And did you have an understanding when you went there that this Dr. Forecast was going on the tour? A. That's what I was told.

n.C om

Q. All right. Let's talk about the tours. Did Dr. Klein ever treat Mr. Jackson while he was on tour? A. Yes. Q. And how do you know that? A.

I went with him.

lJa ck so

Q. And do you know which tour? A.

"Dangerous," "History." you have to forgive me, I don't know the names of the tours.

Q.

But you know those two?

A. Yeah. Q. What about the "Bad" tour? A.

On the "Bad" tour, I don't remember it being -- we went, but it was at the end of the tour.

A. Yes, and his office manager, Penny.

ae

Q. When you say "we," you mean you and Dr. Klein?

ich

Q. Now, when you went with Dr. Klein on these tours, would he treat Mr. Jackson while he was there? A. Yes.

mM

Q. And what kind of treatment would he provide? A.

In Gothenburg, on the "Bad" tour, it was just acne. It wasn't -- I don't remember it being Collagen.

Q.

Okay. And what about on the "Dangerous" tour?

Te a

A. The "Dangerous" tour was acne and Collagen and Vitiligo. Q. And what about on the "History" tour? A. Acne, Vitiligo, Lupus. The Lupus, most of the time we would talk about it, but that was being treated by Dr. Metzger.

w.

Q. And was there Collagen provided to Mr. Jackson during the "History" tour? A. Yes.

ww

Q. And what about Botox?

n.C om

A.

I don't think Botox was approved before I left.

Q. And --

A. And I don't -- it has to be kept refrigerated. So does Collagen; but, I mean, Botox is like a -- super sensitive when you mix it up, you have to be -- you can't like mess around with it. You use it or you put it in a refrigerator, you can't semi-refrigerate it. So how would you travel with the Collagen?

lJa ck so

Q.

A. It was kept in a -- it's almost like you ship the seeds of love from a horse. It's in a -- like a thermostype thing, and with an ice pack. Q. All right. And when you provided the -- did Dr. Klein inject the Collagen into Mr. Jackson on these tours? A. Yes.

Q. And would he get Demerol at this time, as well?

Q. And who would give him Demerol?

ae

A. Yes.

I would.

Q.

So he would do the Collagen and you would do the Demerol?

ich

A.

mM

A. You make it sound like it's a tag team. I would give him the Demerol and the Vistaril, and then Dr. Klein would treat him. Q. And you said you went on the "Dangerous" tour. Did you go on the "Dangerous" tour before or after this three-week program that you did in Century City, do you recall? I would have to see the tour. Do you have it?

Q.

I don't have it with me, but I'll get it. You did indicate --

Te a

A.

A. You're making me come back? Q.

I'm sorry?

w.

A.

I'm sorry. You did mention Mexico City, correct?

Q. You said Mexico City a moment ago?

ww

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in Mexico City?

n.C om

A. Yes. Q.

Okay. So that would be on the "Dangerous" tour, at the end of the "Dangerous" tour?

A. Yes.

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

The break is fine.

Okay. Let's take a 15-minute break.

(Break)

Let's continue.

ae

Judge:

lJa ck so

Judge: One of our jurors needs to use the restroom, so we can either take the afternoon break or I can let the juror go. Do you want the afternoon break or just have the juror --

ich

Mr. Putnam: Ms. Rowe, we are on the "Dangerous" tour, and I was going to -- you said there were times you went with Dr. Klein on that tour. A. Yes.

mM

Q. And was there any time during that tour that you were concerned that Mr. Jackson was using -misusing Demerol? A.

Mexico City.

Q. And what happened?

Q. A.

She's just reminding me that this leg ended in Mexico City. No. He was supposed to go to Puerto Rico. He was supposed to, but he ended up not going, correct?

w.

Q.

Te a

A. If you're talking about -- remember, I'm not good with dates, so you have to tell me where we are in the timeline. Mexico City, yes.

Correct.

Q.

So you were in Mexico City, this is in '93?

ww

A.

A. Yes.

A. We got to Mexico City, I went up to see him, and he was a hot mess. Q. And what do you mean by that, ma'am?

He was depressed. He had taken something. I don't know what he had taken or who he got it from.

Q. What did he seem like?

lJa ck so

A.

n.C om

Q. And what happened?

A. That he was on something, he had taken something. Q. Well -A.

I thought he was back on the Demerol again.

Q. And if you'll tell me how could you tell? What was going on? Was he sweating? What was going on?

ae

A. Tell me what you mean by, "What was going on?"

Q. You said he was a hot mess. I'm trying to ascertain what that means.

Q.

ich

A. I walked into the room, and he was -- his suites were never a mess. The suite was a mess. He wasn't kept. He's always kept. Okay.

mM

A. He wasn't making eye contact, he wasn't speaking, he didn't make sense when he did, and he said he was having problems with his scalp again. And we got into a fight. I was about to ask about that. So you got into a fight. What did you get in a fight about?

A.

I'm a little hotheaded, I went off on him about Forecast.

Te a

Q.

Q. What did you say? A.

I probably shouldn't use that language, so I'm going to clean it up a lot.

Abbreviate.

w.

Mr. Panish:

ww

The witness: He -- I was angry that Forecast had intercepted Metzger, that Forecast had undermined everything that was done. I felt that Forecast was hurting him, not helping him; that he was arrogant. I -- I said I didn't even know that -- if he had called -- and it had only been six weeks since I had seen Michael from -- I don't remember where it was the six weeks before that.

n.C om

Q. That's the time that you went and Dr. Klein gave some Collagen and you gave some --

Q. And what was his reaction?

lJa ck so

A. Right. And then it was six weeks; and then I went to Mexico City, and it was a completely different person six weeks later. And I said, "You cannot go to Puerto Rico." I said, "You go to Puerto Rico, it's like being in the United States, and you can't go looking and acting like this." I said, "You need to straighten up, you need to face whatever it is that's going on, and we'll get through it. You can't just do this." I was really angry.

A. This fight went on two or three days, and I finally -- I said, "You have to go someplace to get better because it's not going to work." Q. And did he agree?

He did, and went to a place in England, but I don't know the name of it.

Q.

So he went to rehab after this; is that correct?

A.

Say it again?

Q.

So he went to rehab in England?

ich

A. Yes.

ae

A.

Did he tell -- before he went, did he tell you that -- did he admit he had a problem?

A.

He knew he had screwed up.

mM

Q.

Q. And did he tell you that? A.

He knew that he was messed up. He did.

Te a

Q. You could tell by the way he was reacting, or did he tell you that? A. No. He said he -- Michael and I had very few fights. When we had them, they were lulus. And because we were such good friends, when we would get back together, it was both of us -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Q.

It's all right.

ww

w.

A. I'm talking about what happened, why I flew off the handle, why -- if he flew off the handle, why he got angry. So we talked about it; and I said, you know, "I'm not about to lose my best friend over something like this that --" I said, "I realize you're going through it, I'm not. I realize I can't protect you, I can't -- I can't make everything better, as much as I want to, so you have to do it." And I reminded him how strong he was. I said, "It will pass." I said, "You haven't done anything, and you just need to be strong."

n.C om

Q.

Did he say why he was angry with you?

Q.

Did you confront Dr. Forecast?

A.

No. They wouldn't let me see him.

Q. Who wouldn't? A. The management people. Do you remember who that was?

A.

No, I don't remember who it was on that tour.

Q.

Did you --

ae

Q.

lJa ck so

A. He was -- he wasn't really mad at me. It was more he felt that he had disappointed me. And I told him that he hadn't disappointed me; that I blamed it on Forecast; and that I feel a doctor has a responsibility to a patient. Forecast was yet another doctor that didn't put him first as a patient, as a human being, as somebody who needed a doctor.

A. I talked to security, and I said I needed to talk to Forecast, and I had to run it by whoever production, or whatever, was.

A. Yeah.

mM

Q. And what did he say?

ich

Q. And did you talk to Mr. Jackson about the idea that you wanted to talk to Dr. Forecast?

A. Michael never had a problem when -- he always called me pulling rank, and he never had a problem with me pulling rank on someone because there were times that he honestly -- he didn't know who was screwing with him. He trusted people; foolishly, foolishly trusted a lot of people.

Te a

Q. And so he had no issue with your going to talk to Dr. Forecast? A. He knew I wasn't going to talk to Forecast, he knew I was going to go and chew his ass out, so he knew what was happening. Q. And did he tell you not to do that? No.

w.

A. Q.

Did he tell you he'd help you make it so you could go see Dr. Forecast?

ww

A. He said I could. When I went and asked security, said, "I need to talk to this doctor," they said they had to run it by whoever it was, and I don't remember the name, and then I was told no.

A.

It was within a week. I don't remember.

Q.

Did he ever go to Puerto Rico?

A.

I don't believe so.

A.

I had to go back to work. But he called me.

Q.

He called you?

A. Yeah.

A.

"Hey."

Q.

Say --

A.

He was just checking in.

A. As far as I know, he did.

ich

Q. And did he complete the program?

ae

Q. What did he say?

lJa ck so

Q. After rehab, did you go with him?

n.C om

Q. And how soon thereafter did Mr. Jackson leave to go to rehab?

Q. And did he then come back to the States?

Q.

But --

mM

A. Yes. I think -- I think he -- I think he came right back. I don't -- I don't know how long he was there. I would have to look to see -- I don't have a calendar of -- of that. I know I didn't see him for a while.

Te a

A. But he easily could have come back into the States and didn't call me because of, you know, whatever was going on. Q. And did a time come where you did see him after rehab? A.

How did he seem?

w.

Q.

Oh, yeah.

He was great.

Q.

Did you ever talk about rehab with him?

ww

A.

n.C om

A.

No.

Q. Why not? A.

Didn't interest me at the time.

Q.

Okay.

Q. What did he say? A.

He said he was feeling better and he was okay.

lJa ck so

A. I mean, I don't know where he went, I didn't know what the program was, so it was -- I asked him how he was.

Q. After that time, was there ever another time where you were worried about him in terms of his use of Demerol?

ae

A. I'm trying to remember. I'm really trying. Not like -- not like that, no. Because -- no, because he was -- he was fine. He was clean. Because it was, you know, within like three years. I mean, at that time, he'd started doing -- I think the "History" album, and he was recording, and he was really, really busy, like all the time busy. Q. And he seemed fine?

ich

A. Yeah. He would actually come to Klein's office -- I went to pick him up a couple of times because, oh, my god, he was a horrible driver, and I didn't want him driving the Canyon from the Valley to Beverly Hills by himself because then he'd be like on the phone. Cell phones were kind of new in the cars, and just -- it was sad. But --

A.

He needed a driver.

Q.

-- he seemed okay to you?

mM

Q.

Te a

A. He was fine. And then he saw Klein, and then I would take him back to the studio and he'd be working. Q. And during that time, would he still be getting Demerol from Klein when he would have procedures? I would have to see the chart. But I know on occasions, no, there was no Demerol or Vistaril.

w.

A.

Q. You said on occasions. On other occasions, were there?

ww

A. Yes, for -- because after the surgery, the area that was done fell apart, just because of the Discoid Lupus, the skin was what you call friable, it's very soft, mushy, and it just -- everything just started falling apart. So it started with the pain again and managing so that he wouldn't get the Keloids and the

n.C om

scarring.

Q. And -- and he continued to get Demerol, then, from Dr. Klein in this time period up until you left Dr. Klein's office? A.

He did, but he wasn't at the office in -- an inordinate amount of time -- many times.

Q.

So you weren't worried?

Q.

lJa ck so

A. No, because I saw him on the set working when he was doing videos, taping videos, and he looked great. Now, this --

A. But I remember "Ghost" was split in half, for some reason, or "Do you think it's scary." It was originally going to be called "Ghost," and then it was "Is It Scary."

A.

Prince was a baby, so it was '96, '97.

ae

Q. Now, this morning I asked you if there was a time when Mr. Jackson had indicated to you that he would see doctors to take Diprivan just to sleep. And I asked you about that this morning, and you'd indicated that occurred later. When is that later period, ma'am?

Q. And was this during the "History" tour? Okay.

ich

A.

Q. Well, do you recall being on tour with Mr. Jackson and him using Diprivan during the tour?

Te a

mM

A. Only in Germany, and it was two days. It was -- I know I had said three up there, but we weren't there long enough to be more than two days because it would have been the night before one show, there would have been a night off, it was the -- that night, and then he performed the next night, so it was those two days before the show. And interestingly enough, when that was done, the doctors that came -- there were two anesthesiologists, there was enough equipment where it looked like a surgical suite. It wasn't, but it looked like it. I thought the second doctor was actually just a nurse or something; and they said no, that if they -- this is how they worked. I don't know if they meant that was how they worked medically or how they worked from their office. But anything over four hours would be two physicians so they wouldn't get tired because it was a constant monitoring. Q. So let's break this down real quick so I can understand. You're in Germany, it's during the "History" tour, and Mr. Jackson was taking Propofol, Diprivan, to sleep? On these two occasions, they were the only time that I was aware of.

w.

A.

Q. And both of those times, it was in Germany?

ww

A. Yes.

Q. And were you staying in a hotel at the time?

n.C om

A. Yes, and I don't remember the name of it.

Q. And how did it come to be -- how did it come to be, if you know, that these doctors came to give Mr. Jackson the Diprivan? A.

It was -- I believe it was set up through Dr. Metzger.

A. Yes. Q. And it was two nights in a row?

lJa ck so

Q. And to be clear, no procedure was being done, this was just to sleep?

No.

Q.

No?

A.

Have you -- you guys haven't seen a concert of his, I guess.

Q.

I have, but not live.

ae

A.

ich

A. There's no way -- no way he could ever do a concert two nights in a row. His shows were so physical. And so he always had at least one night, usually two nights in between, from what I remember. Q. And so just so I understand, so it was done twice in Germany?

mM

A. Right, the night before one show. Okay? Day 1, Propofol; day two, show; day three, nothing; day four, Propofol; day five, show. Q. Now, did you -- do you recall during your deposition talking about other locations where this occurred, as well? You said three times you --

Te a

A. I know. And I thought it was in France, also; and it wasn't, it was only in Germany, because where we lived in Paris, there was no -- those doctors wouldn't have been able to get anything up those stairs. Q. Can you recall -- I'm just trying not to bring it all up -- talking about it being at a hotel in Paris and at a hotel in you thought either Leon in London? A. I did remember talking to you about it; and then because I took the tour notes that you finally gave me at the end and I looked at it, and it wasn't -- it wasn't done in those two places. So -- but in Germany, did it happen in the same hotel or two different hotels?

w.

Q.

Same hotel.

Q.

Same hotel. Okay. And they came and they set up, you said there was a lot of equipment?

ww

A.

n.C om

A. Yes. Q. Where did they set it up? A.

In the room, the hotel room.

Q. Was it in the bedroom?

lJa ck so

A. You know, if you walk into the room, it had kind of a -- a large area, and then there would be the bed, and then a balcony, and then a dressing area and the bathroom over there. It was a big room, huge room. Probably one and a half times this size. Did they leave the equipment?

A.

No, no, no.

Q.

So they took it after the first time and set back up for the second time?

A.

I wasn't -- I didn't know that we were going to have a second time.

Q.

Did you know you were going to have a first time?

A.

No.

ae

Q.

ich

Q. When did you come to realize that these doctors were coming to give Mr. Jackson Diprivan? A. He had called Metzger and said that he couldn't sleep. And I called Metzger to find out what we could do, and they had set everything up, and then Metzger had told me what was -- that these doctors were coming.

mM

Q. And were you involved in setting this up at all? A.

Setting up the appointment? No.

Te a

Q. So Mr. Jackson and Dr. Metzger set it up, and these doctors came and put their equipment -- were you there when they arrived? A. Yes.

Q. And did you voice any concern about this? A. Yes.

w.

Q. And who did you voice that to?

ww

A. To Michael and to the doctors. My concern was it was a little drastic to -- to do something like that, and we were in another country. I didn't know the name of the medications, and I was worried that something wasn't going to be the same.

n.C om

Q. Now, before this occurred, were you aware of Mr. Jackson ever previously taking Diprivan to sleep? A.

No.

Q.

So this was the first time you had ever -- were aware of this?

Q.

Did you voice your concerns to Dr. Metzger?

A. Yes. Q. What did you say? A.

lJa ck so

A. Yes.

He said he had talked to Michael, he said that he wasn't -- it wasn't his first choice.

Q. Wasn't whose first choice? A.

Dr. Metzger's.

A. What do you mean? I'm sorry. I --

ae

Q. And did you have an understanding as to why they were going to use Diprivan?

ich

Q. As opposed to a sedative or a sleeping pill or something like that. A.

I think they tried it and it hadn't worked. And if he couldn't sleep, he couldn't perform.

mM

Q. And when you told Mr. Jackson that you were concerned about this, you thought it was extreme, what did he say? He said he was at the end of his rope, that he didn't know what else to do.

Q.

Did he indicate to you whether he had ever done it before?

A.

No.

Q.

Te a

A.

Did he indicate to you whether he was worried about doing this?

w.

A. He didn't seem to be, but we sat -- he and I sat there with the doctors going over all of the dangers and causes, and I told him that -- I said, "We've got the P.D.R.", which is the book that doctors use, the physician's desk reference for pharmaceutical meds. And it was the same stuff that was used -- from everything that we saw, it was the same, and they explained it was the same stuff that we had used or had been used in the States.

ww

Q.

Now, were they speaking in English?

A. Yes.

n.C om

Q.

Did they give any warnings about how dangerous Propofol could be to use?

A.

Propofol wasn't a word in our language.

Q.

Diprivan. I apologize.

lJa ck so

A. Just -- I have to tell you, I never heard Propofol. Fentanyl, Diprivan. Never Propofol. It was never used. Q. I apologize. So the Diprivan, did -- did they warn him in any way that Diprivan can be very dangerous? A. They warned him that any anesthesia is dangerous. Q.

Did they -- did you warn him that you were afraid that he might die?

A.

Did I say it that way? No. I said, "What happens if you die?"

Q. And what did he say?

He had had so many procedures done with Hoefflin I don't think he was worried about it.

Q.

Did he seem worried at all?

A.

No. He was just more worried about not sleeping.

Q.

Now, did they -- did both doctors stay during the administration of the Diprivan?

ich

mM

A. Yes. Q. And --

ae

A.

A. They did a physical on him first, and went over what they were going to do. I was really impressed with them. I was very comfortable with Michael being in their care.

A. Q.

I did.

Did you ever leave his side during this? I did because the baby was there and I was going back and forth.

w.

A.

Te a

Q. And did you stay --

Q. And how long did Mr. Jackson --

ww

A. Q.

It was a hard eight-hours period. It was eight hours, that was it. How do you know that?

n.C om

A.

Because that's what the doctors said.

Q.

Did you talk to Mr. Jackson about this afterwards, about what he had just done?

lJa ck so

A. Well, I -- he doesn't talk to anybody the day of the -- of his performance. He warms up with -- I want to say Seth Green. That may not be the right name. He warmed up with his voice coach on the phone and went to the venue where he was with Karen, you know, to do the makeup and stuff. I mean, he -- but during the day, he never talked to anybody, he rested his voice. But when he was at the venue, he did the meet-and-greets that he did and stuff, and got ready.

Q. Did you say anything to him after he went under for the eight hours about the fact that he -- that he had just done so? A.

No. I spoke to him the next day.

Q. And what did you say?

A. And I asked him how he was feeling, and he said that he had felt better. Did you remain concerned about the idea that he had done this?

A.

No. It was the one time.

Q.

But then he did it again a day later, right?

Q.

So --

mM

A. The day after that.

ich

A. Yes.

ae

Q.

Q.

So how did that come about?

Te a

A. He said he hadn't slept since the concert. And I called Dr. Metzger, and I believe it was decided that this isn't something you can do all the time. You absolutely cannot do it. And I don't know why Munich was an issue. I don't know if it was towards the end of that leg of the tour. It would really help if I had that schedule. Q. But Metzger agreed, nonetheless, even -- even after saying this is something you can't be doing, he agreed to do it a second time?

w.

A. Well, Metzger didn't do it, Dr. Stoll and his associate did it. Q. What was the name?

ww

A.

Stoll, s-t-o-l-l.

Q. And they came back. Did you have another conversation with Mr. Jackson about this?

n.C om

A. Yes. They did a physical, we had -- it was almost exactly as it was the previous time. Q. And --

A. They were a little bit more emphatic about this -- "You can't do this, we're not doing this again." Q. And --

lJa ck so

A. And I think we were -- it was the end of the tour or something that he was going to be going home, so it was -- we were going to get the sleep -- have the issue addressed, and I -- he's always had a sleep disorder, but I don't remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had at that point. Q. And when you say that you were going to have it addressed, what do you mean? A.

Like we were going to like go to a sleep – a sleep facility for -- I don't know what you call it.

Q. And did you do that?

Q.

Do you remember the doctor's names?

ae

A. We did. We did biofeedback. There were a couple of doctors that he spoke to and saw regarding the -- the sleep. But, again, I don't remember how far after -- how long after that was.

So these two times, both happened in the hotel room?

A. Yes.

mM

Q.

ich

A. No. I didn't go to those appointments. I was the one that suggested let's do biofeedback and things like that, but I don't know the doctors to talk to for that, so Dr. Metzger had set those up. And I believe Dr. Metzger was with him, or had set up the appointments and stuff, and that he just went.

Q. And are those the -- and, again, you had talked in your deposition about other occasions, but now as we sit here -I -- yeah.

Te a

A.

Ms. Chang:

Just, your honor, objection; asked and answered. We're redoing the whole thing.

Judge: Are we redoing the whole thing? No.

w.

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

Okay. Overruled.

ww

Q. Those didn't happen, these are the only time times that you recall, right?

n.C om

A. Yes. Ms. Chang: Judge:

Objection, asked and answered.

Overruled.

lJa ck so

Q. When I showed you that in your deposition where you said on those occasions where he said to you, "Hi. I've got to get some sleep. Will you come with me while I -- while I get some sleep at a doctor's office?" -- and your response to that was sometimes. But that never happened, right?

A. I misunderstood what you had asked. He had gotten the procedures done and had gotten sleep -like, again, even with the -- I was about to say, the doctors in Germany, he woke up, he was never as sound asleep for as long as if he saw Dr. Hoefflin. Q.

I'm sorry?

A. When he had been asleep in Germany, he was awake within an hour.

ae

Q. Within an hour of what, ma'am?

ich

A. Of being -- of the I.V. Stopping and -- when I say "awake," he was awake right away, but being able to function and walk around and -- and not have someone like watching him in recovery, whereas with Hoefflin, it was in a recovery bed in a recovery room with oxygen for five, six hours. Q. And back to this idea, though, the idea of him coming with you to get some sleep at a doctor's office -He would come to Klein's office and sleep, though.

mM

A.

Q. With Diprivan, or just sleep? A.

No; just sleep.

A.

Te a

Q. So when we were talking about this idea in your deposition of going to a doctor's office -- he'd ask you to come to a doctor's office with him to sleep, that just never happened in any way, right? He slept when he had procedures.

Ms. Chang:

Overruled. I'm not sure it's clear. You may answer.

w.

Judge:

I'm sorry. Just objection, I think it was asked and answered a couple of times.

ww

The witness: He had procedures done at Hoefflin's, and then he slept after Hoefflin had done the procedure, but that was like the only -- and that was the only place that that had happened that I had ever seen Michael have anesthesia. That was the only place where he slept after anesthesia.

n.C om

Mr. Putnam: But this idea of Mr. Jackson asking you to accompany him to a doctor's office – A.

It was not for sleep. I misstated.

Q.

Okay. After that incident, the second time --

A. Which second time?

lJa ck so

Q. In the hotel room, the second time in the German hotel room, did you ever discuss that incident with Mr. Jackson ever again? A. That wasn't going to happen again. Q. And tell me about that conversation. A.

It wasn't really much of a conversation other than that's just not going to happen again.

Q. And why not?

It just wasn't going to happen again. We weren't going to do it.

ae

A.

Q. And -- but you felt pretty good about those doctors, and it seemed to go well, no? Objection; leading.

The witness: You don't put -Overruled.

The witness:

I'm sorry.

mM

Judge:

ich

Ms. Chang:

Judge: That's all right.

The witness: You don't give someone Diprivan to sleep. It's not appropriate. It's not a labeled use.

Te a

Mr. Putnam: Well, you told him that before the first time he did it and he did it anyway, right? A. He didn't do it after that. He did it one more time. After those two times, he never did it when I was around. It was not going to happen.

w.

Q. And if he did it any other time after that, you weren't present, correct? A.

No; because it would not have happened.

ww

Ms. Chang:

Objection; lacks foundation, calls for speculation.

n.C om

Judge:

Overruled.

Mr. Putnam: Who had access to the room where Mr. Jackson was receiving the Propofol in the hotel? A. The hotel would, the manager would, my nanny did, I did, security was there.

lJa ck so

Q. And did all these people, the nanny, the security, et cetera -- did they see that Mr. Jackson was being put under with Diprivan? A. Did they come in while he was asleep? I'm not going to let someone come in there while he's asleep. That's kind of rude.

Q. That's why I'm asking. So did anybody come in besides the doctors and you when Mr. Jackson was hooked up? Grace might have, my nanny.

Q.

Okay. But you just don't recall?

A.

Do you let people in your bedroom? Because that's kind of weird.

ae

A.

Q. I don't know if they come in or not. I'm sleeping. But to your knowledge, you said you were there most of the time, right? Do you recall anybody coming in besides the doctors? No.

ich

A.

Q. And is that true for both occasions?

mM

A. Yes.

Q. And -- and you talked to Dr. Metzger about both occasions, correct? Because you talked to him before each one?

Te a

A. Before and after each one, and I got copies of the records. I took notes, also; and when I got back from Europe, I took them to his office and he put them in his chart. Q. And by that, you mean you took the medical records that these two doctors were using or making out while they Were --

w.

A. The copies of their record. I asked them, also, for a report to go with it because I felt that just the -did the anesthesiologist show you what they do -- did Dave show you how he keeps a record? Q. We've seen that, yes.

ww

A. Okay. So I -- I didn't think that that alone was enough because these doctors were in another country, so they gave me a letter. The letter was in German. We did have to have it translated. I don't know if Dr. Metzger did that or not. But it was -- my -- my notes were on those -- you know the day

n.C om

runners? I took those notes in that -- they were very popular then. I did my notes in that, and I gave him those. I. Didn't make copies for myself, I just gave him those, and then I took the copies from the doctors and asked them to write the letter, and then they also sent Dr. Metzger a letter, I think later -Q. What makes you think that?

Q. And how did you see that? A.

It might have come to my office.

lJa ck so

A. -- for the referral. I remember there being a referral letter that doctors send when a patient is referred.

Q. Were you still working with Dr. Klein at this point?

A. I worked with Dr. Klein until 1997. I would go to Europe every -- every other week to see the kids -- well, to see Prince. We were making Paris. Q. And this was -- and this is during the "History" tour?

ae

A. Yes.

Q. And other than -- did you ever talk about this with Dr. Metzger again after this incident?

Q. Why was that?

ich

A. After Michael and I decided to separate, Michael got custody of the doctors. I teased him about it forever. I said, "Great. I'm giving you custody of the doctors. Be nice to them." It was more important for me that he have Dr. Metzger on his side and as his advocate than me to have him if I got a cold.

mM

A. Because Metzger cared for Michael as a human being, as a -- as a patient. He actually cared about his health and his wellbeing, wanted what was best for him, talked to him for hours if Michael -Michael could sometimes be strong-willed for about ten minutes, and then reasonable; and he respected Dr. Metzger very much.

Te a

Q. And I've asked if you had spoken to Dr. Metzger about these -- this incident. At any time after it occurred -- I know you did at the time. You said the day he went down and when he came out, you spoke to Dr. Metzger. Was there any time after that time that you talked to Dr. Metzger about this?

w.

A. Just to take care of Michael, because I wasn't -- we were married. When I was no longer working for Dr. Klein, I didn't feel comfortable -- I feel like I had a completely different role in his life, and I couldn't go into Dr. Klein's office and see his charts. It's illegal. And I felt if he wanted to talk about it or if he wanted me there, he would have asked me to be there, because there were other patients who did, and I did go in for some patients. But he just needed somebody when he would -- when he -- he needed somebody to be there for him to help him, to not take from him, to not look at him as a cash cow.

ww

Q. Did you ever discuss the use of the Diprivan in Germany with anyone other than Mr. Jackson and Dr. Metzger?

n.C om

A.

My nanny.

Q. Your dad? My nanny, grace.

Q.

I thought you said your dad.

A.

No; my nanny.

lJa ck so

A.

Q. And why was that?

A. Because I wasn't sure how Michael would be when he woke up, and if he had come upstairs or if he had come over to the -- we usually stayed on a different floor or a different area because the fans would keep the baby awake, and I'd like to -- I enjoy my sleep. And so when he wasn't with the baby, I had the baby on the other side of the hotel. And I told grace, I said, "if he comes up and he's not right," I said, "don't leave him alone with the baby." Q. And did you explain to grace what was being done? I said that he -- he had had medication for sleep.

Q.

Did you tell her what it was?

A.

Grace wouldn't --

She wouldn't know the difference.

mM

A.

ich

Q. Wouldn't know?

ae

A.

Q. And is there anyone else you discussed this with ever? A.

Dr. Klein knew.

Te a

Q. You would discuss it with Dr. Klein? What did you tell him?

w.

A. I always talked to Dr. Klein when I got back from -- he was always mad because I left and I was off work for like two days. And he was always mad, and then would want to know everything that happened. And I didn't mind sharing stuff with him. But when it came to his medical stuff, you know, I wanted -- Klein, at one time, was a brilliant physician; and it was very sad what happened to him. But I -- you know, I never did it behind closed doors at the office. Mitzi was there, and -- who else was there at the time? I know Mitzi worked with me, Ellen was working there, penny was gone, but I think Barbara worked for Klein. Q.

Did you speak with each of them about this incident?

ww

A. Usually when -- Klein would have these times where he would sit down in his office and just -- he just wanted to chat and call people and just talk, and so he -- when he did that, that was when we all

n.C om

kind of like went into his -- his office and talked. And -- and everybody agreed that it was a little too much to -- to have Diprivan to -- to sleep. Q. And did you ever discuss it again with Mr. Jackson after that incident? A.

I don't think so.

Q. A time came -- you mentioned that you and Mr. Jackson were divorced, correct?

lJa ck so

A. Yes. Q. And that was in 1999? A. Yes. Q.

Prior to his passing, when was the last time you had seen him?

A.

I think Paris was four, so it would have been around -- god, I hate math -- 2003.

ae

Q. And when Mr. Jackson passed, eventually it came out that he had died of an overdose of Propofol. Did you learn that? A. Yes.

A.

ich

Q. And did it -- did you think back to this time in Germany when you heard it? No. Actually, I called Arnold Klein and I said, "What did you give him? You killed him."

Q. Why did you do that?

Because TMZ had shown --

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A.

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Ms. Chang: Objection, your honor. I think it's irrelevant and -- because there was no Demerol in his system, as we heard from the coroner and the medical examiner; and what she thought at the time -- she had not seen him in that time period; and if she called him about, "why did you kill him?" and he wants to bring out pure speculation -- lack of foundation, and it's -- Mr. Panish wants me to say it's TMZ, and I -- it is -Judge:

Sustained.

Mr. Putnam:

No, but she was starting to offer it.

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Judge:

I asked why she called him, not what she said.

The witness:

I thought he was responsible in some way.

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Mr. Putnam: But you eventually learned that it was Diprivan, it was this Propofol stuff, right? A. Yes.

Did that remind you of what had happened in Germany?

A.

I didn't know what Propofol was.

Ms. Chang:

Overruled.

The witness: Mr. Putnam: The witness: Mr. Putnam:

I didn't know what Propofol was. I still didn't know what it was. And -I think it was a deposition -When you first -- okay.

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Judge:

Objection; asked and answered.

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Q.

The witness: -- that I was told that they were the same thing, that it was a trade name or product name as opposed to a -- it was like a brand as opposed to -- instead of Diprivan, instead of Fentanyl, it was Propofol.

Not that I was aware of, no.

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A.

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Q. And other than the times you've mentioned to us in Germany, was there ever another time that you were aware of that Mr. Jackson used Diprivan to sleep?

Q. And did anyone ever tell you that he had used Diprivan to sleep?

The witness: Judge:

I think objection, it would be calling for hearsay. I don't --

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Ms. Chang:

Sustained.

Mr. Putnam:

That's all I have. Thank you.

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The witness: Are you going to bring that schedule tomorrow? Ms. Chang:

Do you want me to start now, your honor?

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Judge: Yes.

Q.

Cross-examination by Ms. Chang:

Good afternoon, Ms. Rowe. How are you?

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A.

Good.

Q. Are you hanging in okay? A.

I've got a headache to die for.

Q. Tired? I'm tired.

Q.

Do you feel you're okay to continue with me?

A.

Depends what you're going to ask.

Q.

Okay. Let me start out with some introductory stuff, and then we'll get into taxing stuff --

Q.

No.

A.

Okay. It's a lovely town.

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A. We aren't going back to Spokane, are we?

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A.

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Q. First of all, Ms. Rowe, you did not meet me at the deposition or any -- or Mr. Panish sitting at the table, correct? A.

No. I was told you guys didn't want to come.

Q.

Okay. Were you ever told that Mr. Putnam called us several times when we were not there?

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A. The day of the deposition.

Q. Were you concerned that no one from the Plaintiffs' side was at the deposition? Ms. Stebbins:

Sustained.

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Judge:

Objection; relevance.

Ms. Chang: All right. Q.

No.

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A.

In any event, we certainly didn't meet with you before the deposition, correct?

Q. All right. Am I correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. All right. And, Ms. Row, you have no legal or financial interest in this lawsuit; is that correct?

Correct.

Q. You were subpoenaed by defense counsel to come here to testify, correct? A.

Correct.

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A.

Q. Would it be fair to say that if you weren't subpoenaed, you would not voluntarily come? No, I would not.

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A.

Q. Okay. And would you agree that when Mrs. Jackson's assistant, janet smith, first called you to meet with her attorneys before your deposition, you hung up on her because you didn't want to get involved? A.

I did.

Q.

Okay. And you told her, "I'm not testifying for anybody," correct?

A.

Correct.

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Q. And you just wanted to come and testify to the truth under oath. Would that be fair to say? A. Yes.

A.

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Q. And at the current time, just to make clear, you're not the legal guardian of either Prince or Paris Jackson; is that true? Correct. Mrs. Jackson and TJ are.

A. Yes.

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Q. And that's TJ Jackson?

Q. All right. And you do not have custody of either Prince or Paris Jackson; is that correct? Correct.

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A.

Q. In fact, prior to this year, Ms. Rowe, would you agree that you have only seen Prince or Paris Jackson a handful of times since your divorce from Michael Jackson? A. That's true with Prince, but I was spending a lot of time with Paris. I said prior to this year. Would you agree that --

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Q. A.

Oh, yes.

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Q. Okay. And so I know this year -- would it be fair to say that this year you reestablished seeing your daughter, Paris?

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A. Yes. Q.

Is that true? But before this year, you had only seen Prince and Paris a handful of times, correct?

A.

Correct.

Q. And you'd never spoken to them about this lawsuit; is that true?

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A. True.

Q. And you've never spoken to blanket Jackson about this lawsuit, true? A.

No, I haven't.

Q. Okay. And just to be clear, you were married to Michael Jackson from November of 1996 until 1999, correct? A.

Correct.

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Q. But before your divorce, would you agree that you were close friends with him for almost 20 years? A. Yes; a little bit longer.

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Q. And after --

A. No, probably that long. No, longer, because -- longer. Because we met in the early '80's, and we were married until '99, and it's not like we ever hated each other.

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. And after 2000 and up until the time of his death, would it be fair to say that you still considered him your friend?

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Q. But communication got complicated because there were divorce lawyers? Would that be fair to say? A. There were divorce lawyers, there were personal assistants, there were a number of people that -Q.

Got in the way?

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A. Were annoying. Q.

Okay. And --

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A. And difficult. Q.

-- it limited your communication with Mr. Jackson?

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A. Yes.

Q. Would that be fair to say? All right. Let's start back at the beginning so I can put things in context here. Would you agree with me, Ms. Rowe, that you and Michael Jackson were approximately the same age, with you just being a few months younger? A. Yes.

Okay. You told us that you graduated from Hollywood High School; is that correct?

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Q.

A. Yes.

Q. And after that, you did become an E.M.T., or an emergency medical technician, in 1978; is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. And you told us what you had to do, you had to take a course, and you took a test and became certified? Correct.

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A.

A.

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Q. But to be absolutely clear, even though we've heard many times that you were referred to as a nurse, you are not a nurse; is that correct? Correct.

A.

Correct.

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Q. All right. An E.M.T. is something totally different, correct?

Q. And a nurse has a completely different type of training than an E.M.T. does; is that correct? A.

It's a lot more extensive.

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Q. All right.

A. And the E.M.T. Training now is even more intense than in the '70's when I took it. Q.

Okay.

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A. I don't think I even -- I got a certificate. I don't remember if it was a state certificate or not. It's -- I don't remember at all. Q. And are you still certified as an E.M.T.

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A.

I have no idea.

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Have you kept up --

A.

I do horses.

Q.

Okay. You haven't used your E.M.T. certification, correct?

A.

911 works for me.

Q.

Okay. And -- and to be clear, you have no degree or training in nursing, correct?

A.

Correct.

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Q.

Q. And would you also agree that you have no training or expertise in drug addiction? A.

Correct.

Q. As soon as you got your E.M.T. certification, you worked for Dr. Klein, correct? A. Yes.

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Q. And you worked closely with Dr. Klein in a number of different kinds of capacities for a total of 27 years; is that correct? 20 something years. I start in '79 and -- yeah, 20 years.

Q.

If you testified in your deposition that it was 27 years, would you have any reason to --

A.

It probably felt like 27 years.

Q.

Okay. All right. But you have no reason to dispute that number now?

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ich

A.

Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony. I think she just said this morning it's approximately '82 to '97, which is less than 27 years -- '77 to '97 would be -Ms. Chang:

Is it 27 years, Ms. Rowe?

Te a

Q.

I can look up the site.

A. Not if you do the math, because if I worked for him in '78, and then I quit in '97, that's not even 20 years, it's 19 years. Ms. Chang:

20 years.

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Judge:

19 years. All right.

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Ms. Chang: And your position when you worked with Dr. Klein was as an office assistant; is that correct? A.

Back office assistant.

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Q. And you explained treatments to patients and you assisted the doctors; is that right? A. Yes.

Q. Now, you helped Dr. Klein with a lot of his research and testing regarding the use of new techniques and drugs, correct?

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A. We did the studies -- we did the studies for Collagen and for Botox and the different uses.

Q. And would you agree you got to know him well in the time period that you worked with him? A.

Dr. Klein?

Q. Yes. A. Yes.

A.

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Q. All right. And when you say that Mr. Jackson respected doctors, let me ask you this. Would you agree that when you worked for him, Dr. Arnold Klein -- despite what you think of him now, he was considered one of the leading dermatologists in this country? He was. He was brilliant.

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Q. Would you agree he was a professor at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA? It wasn't called the David Geffen School at the time. He was a professor at UCLA and Stanford.

Q.

Okay. And that's -- a clinical professor of Dermatology at Stanford University?

A.

I don't remember what the title was.

Q.

Okay?

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A.

Te a

A. It's Stanford. We used to go to UCLA at the harbor and do clinical with the -- with the residents and stuff. Q. Would you agree that in the early days of the AIDS epidemic, he became one of the first doctors in Los Angeles to diagnose Karposi Sarcoma in AIDS patients? Ms. Stebbins:

Objection.

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The witness: Yes.

Ms. Chang: And thereafter, he worked for amfAR, or the foundation for aids research?

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Ms. Stebbins: Judge:

Objection; relevance.

Sustained. The answer is stricken.

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Ms. Chang:

Okay.

Q. Would you agree that he developed techniques for Collagen and Botox use in this country? A. Yes.

Q. All right. And did he work with the FDA to get FDA approval for these techniques?

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A. He worked with the Collagen corporation. I don't know -- our reports all went to the Collagen corporation. I don't know the -- what happens to get a drug approved by the FDA.

Q. Okay. Would you agree that at the time that Michael Jackson treated with him, he was considered a preeminent dermatologist in Beverly Hills? A. Yes.

Q. You first met him as a new patient of Dr. Klein in the 1980's? Would that be fair to say? A. Yes.

He was introduced to Dr. Klein by David Geffen?

ae

Q.

A. Yes.

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Q. True? Okay. And the first time he came in, would you agree that he was still in his early 20's and still living at home with his mother? A. Yes.

A. Yes.

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Q. And he came in, you said, for treatment of acne; is that correct?

Te a

Q. And would you agree that at this time in his life, his acne caused him considerable embarrassment? A. Yes.

Q. And later on, would you agree that he developed medical conditions that necessitated continuous treatment by Dr. Klein, as well as other doctors that you've discussed?

w.

Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation as to the need for the treatments. She just established she doesn't have medical expertise. Judge: Overruled.

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Ms. Chang:

Okay.

Q. And one of those conditions -- you mentioned Lupus before. The condition was actually called

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Discoid Lupus, which I think you've also mentioned?

A. Yes. There's two types; systemic, which is throughout the body, and Discoid, which is in the skin.

Q. And working for Dr. Klein for nearly 20 years, did you come to learn that Discoid, in fact, refers to the skin? A. Yes. Okay. And Discoid Lupus, to be clear, is not Lupus in the body, correct?

Ms. Stebbins: Judge:

Objection; vague as to "in the body."

Systemic, you mean?

The witness:

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Q.

Discoid is not systemic.

Ms. Chang: They're totally different; is that correct? A. They're separate diseases.

Okay. And the Discoid Lupus, though, that can result in sores, or -- like you called it spongy --

A.

Rash – a friable.

Q.

-- or scarring around the head area; is that fair to say?

A.

His scarring was from the burn from the Pepsi commercial.

Q.

Right.

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ich

ae

Q.

A. The friable skin that was from the Lupus, it was biopsied and found to be Lupus. We didn't know that he had Lupus. Q.

Okay.

Te a

A. We were trying to find out why the keloid was doing what it was doing. Q. All right. And the Lupus -- the Discoid Lupus was actually diagnosed in approximately 1983; is that correct? A.

I think so.

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Q. All right. You also testified that you knew he had Vitiligo. A. Yes.

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Q. And in your close to 20 years working with Dr. Klein, did you come to learn that Vitiligo is a condition that causes depigmentation or decoloring or discoloration of sections of a person's skin?

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A. Yes.

Ms. Chang: All right. I'd like to show exhibit 1070, which -- just for counsel. Ms. Stebbins:

I would just object to the relevance of this, your honor.

Ms. Chang: Your honor, can we have a sidebar? Okay.

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Judge:

(The following proceedings were held at sidebar)

Mr. Putnam:

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Ms. Chang: The reason why I wanted to bring this in is because what Mr. Putnam has spent practically all day doing is trying to establish that Mr. Jackson would go in just to get sleep or -- or Demerol. And now I'm going to go through all of the conditions that she was with him in the 20-year history that they had. She was assigned to him as a patient, she knew what Vitiligo was. They've not seen what it is. Mr. Putnam kind of treats it like it's like no big deal; and I'm going to go through, in detail, each of his conditions. I didn't treat it like it wasn't anything.

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Ms. Stebbins: To respond, your honor, a -- I'm just concerned -- there has been quite a bit of testimony in this case already about what Vitiligo is. I think this picture actually even came in at one point. You know, it's depigmentation of skin. No one disputes that, or that Mr. Jackson had it. It just seems to be a bit beyond the scope. I don't think there's any evidence that he got anesthesia while being treated for Vitiligo, or even that he needed Demerol while being treated for Vitiligo. My understanding is the treatment involves principally topical skin creams. So I'm not sure what the relevance of it is to the testimony. I don't think anyone is disputing that he had Vitiligo. My objection was more just --

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Ms. Chang: Let me make my proffer, just to speed it up. My proffer is this. The reason why I am bringing up Vitiligo, Discoid Lupus, the pain and the burns, is to establish the foundation of what they went through together because as a result of the three that happened in his 20's at the same time as the burn area, the doctors were perplexed on what to do. When they treated the burn, the Discoid Lupus was at issue. When they treated the acne -- it was like a chain reaction. He ended up feeling so badly about himself, he thought he was like the Elephant Man, and the person he could talk to, because he didn't want to bother his mother because he didn't want to make her sad, is Debbie Rowe. That is the establishment of this close relationship and what they went through and why they became so close. It also supports where his psyche was, what he had to go through. I don't know of any other 20-year-old, frankly, or 23, who had to go through all of those things at once, have these procedures and get up and dance every day. And I think that given how they're trying to present him as, "Oh, he just went in and even --" Botox and Collagen, making him sound superficial and vain like a star. I think we have the right and the duty to put forward what he was actually going through.

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Ms. Stebbins: For the record, your honor, I don't think that -- there was plenty of testimony on direct examination about the pain, about the burn, about the difficulties with that. I'm not sure why Michael Jackson's self-esteem issues are necessarily relevant to this issue. Again, my only concern here is relevance and undue consumption of time. If counsel is going to quickly go through Vitiligo -- it's not -- it just seems somewhat irrelevant and designed to -- to bring in -- I don't even know what. Michael Jackson had self-esteem issues seems a bit far afield.

Judge:

It goes to the number of visits that he's there, it's just not for Propofol.

Mr. Putnam: Judge:

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Mr. Panish: We spent an hour and a half to get to 1993, so I don't know whether -- an hour and a half, and when she was 11, all that, and she wants to go to his condition. They want to make a big deal about the number of visits he had.

You don't need a picture to show that, though.

Overruled. I'm going to allow it.

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(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors) Judge: What do you want to do, Ms. Chang?

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Ms. Chang: I feel that even if I did it tonight, I would start over with it again in the morning, so maybe it would be best if we just --

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Judge: All right. Tomorrow at 9:30. Thank you. See you tomorrow at 9:30. Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the jurors):

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Judge: Okay. Before I let you go, I wanted to talk to you about the resting issue, whether -- I think you said Ms. Chang was going to address that issue today. I don't know if she's prepared. Mr. Panish:

I didn't talk to her about it.

Ms. Chang: The what issue? Can we do that in the morning?

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Mr. Panish: Judge:

Okay.

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Mr. Panish:

I didn't talk to her about it. I'm sorry.

Mr. Panish:

My fault.

Judge: Tomorrow morning.

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Te a

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ich

ae

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(Court adjourned to Thursday, August 15, 2013, at 9:30 AM)

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Judge: All right.