Jerome Finley - Controversial - Emperor Has No Clothes Thread - Magic Cafe - Wednesday April 3 2013

2013-04-03 4:33 PM

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Topic: The emperor has no clothes.

Message:

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 16, 2013 1:04pm)

There are a few hot creators in the mentalism market who produce a lot of risky material. By risky, I mean sometimes it works and sometimes it fails to produce a good effect. I like the idea of taking risks alongside surefire methods because it can result in unexplainable moments that bolster the whole effect. What's hard to understand is the cult following these creators have despite their very expensive, limitedrelease books. Their volumes are full of interesting yet mostly unreliable material, usually including a few effects that work well but aren't groundbreaking. Some buyers will pay over $200 for one book of psychological forces they could have easily thought of for themselves, plus a few decent effects thrown in (but never enough to justify the price). Meanwhile Banachek's entire PS trilogy costs $165 and includes both psy-forces and workhorse routines that frankly leave the new books in the dust. I find myself thinking, "Why are folks at the Café raving about this new book? Who is this guy? Are they all his friends? He's okay but he isn't any more creative than my friends in mentalism are. Has anyone ever seen him perform?" Sometimes I think, "This book is mediocre and the price is high to make it seem more wonderful than it is. It's a psychological ploy to make people value the material more; buyers want what's harder to attain." Or worse, "This author is a flim-flam man and the Magic Café is where he finds his willing marks." Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't get it, but I feel this way most often about material created by guys who are "playing it for real". I guess they work for audiences full of followers and can say and do many things without scrutiny, things I can't get away with in a show for skeptics at the university. Yet these creators seem to be nice guys and no one wants to write a bad review. Instead, buyers quietly and politely dump these books in the "Let's Make a Magic Deal" forum. When we flatter people for their mediocre work it takes away from our praise of excellent work, and there is so much excellent work out there. Give me thoughtful creators like Bruce Bernstein, Bob Cassidy, Doug Dyment, Ted Karmilovich and Richard Mark to name a few. I'm done with the new kids, done with the self-described gurus who talk a good game but won't allow their performances to be seen by us. If they wanna' charge $15 for an ebook I might support them but no way am I paying $250 for another steaming pile of "new". I took the bait once and learned my lesson. Message:

Posted by: Smoking Camel (Mar 16, 2013 1:07pm)

Mike do you have any specific examples? Message:

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 16, 2013 1:10pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 13:07, Smoking Camel wrote: Mike do you have any specific examples?

Yes I do. That's not why I wrote. I think creators can read this and pause before slapping a high price on their work. Instead, I gave good examples to follow. Message:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 1:17pm)

Where can I buy these no-clothes? downloads? Message:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 16, 2013 1:29pm)

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Mike, not only does the Emporer have no clothes, he's pretty gaunt and scrawny. I doubt their 'performances' would be acceptable by anyone. I've followed a few vids of these cornucopias of mediocrity in action and their performances in real life are abysmal. Fumbly, floppy, rambly and, usually, low-pop effects. But...it's an easy way to make an extra 15 grand a year, every year. Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 1:35pm)

A whole book of christian chelman is for 100 euros. Its full of working material, the book itself is a piece of art ( for those lucky enough to posses one). Switchcraft was 20 $ if I remeber well. These are the two things I consider before purchasing something... They are hard to beat.. Message:

Posted by: DrTodd (Mar 16, 2013 1:56pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 13:35, THB wrote: A whole book of christian chelman is for 100 euros. Its full of working material, the book itself is a piece of art ( for those lucky enough to posses one). Switchcraft was 20 $ if I remeber well. These are the two things I consider before purchasing something... They are hard to beat..

The New Chelman book is delightful! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 2:13pm)

It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently. Warren Buffett Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 16, 2013 2:29pm)

I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was around $20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick). Creators and authors can price their material as they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it wants it at that price. There is a difference between a mass produced commercial publication and a private publication. The two cannot be compared. And it has been common throughout the history of our art for private, limited distribution publications to go for high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at that time, a huge sum. I did do something a little different though. I offered to refund those not happy with what they received. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had some of the material from another publication I was include in. When my material was released by a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee. Tony Message:

Posted by: Rick Maue (Mar 16, 2013 5:49pm)

I was told by several young mentalists that I should follow their lead and sell my ebook, The Road, for a couple hundred bucks. After all, it includes a number of my signature pieces from my actual stage act. They insisted that the material had to have a high price. And so, to this day, The Road sells for $22. And my other ebook, Digital Deception, has other signature pieces (The Journey & Imagine), and the same high-priced suggestion from other mentalists resulted in that release coming out at $25. Each creator has to do what is best for them. To me, such high prices simply don't fit who I am. Keep the change, Rick Message:

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 6:02pm)

I agree, Rick. I've never released a book or eBook that sold for more than fifty dollars. That includes my 290 page hardcover, The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy which contains virtually all of my signature pieces and sells for around $45.00. And yet I've seen more than a few "improvements" of the routines in my books being sold as single effect releases by relatively unknown newcomers at prices of $100.00 and more. (And in many cases they are actually steps backward rather than improvements, employing ideas that I discarded because they didn't meet the requirements of real-life performing.) It's not at all unusual here to see someone introduce himself here as a complete beginner and less than a few months later, with a very limited background in either performing or researching and writing, he's selling eBooks of "original" material. Such is life in these days of instant self-publishing and self-created internet "fame." Good thoughts, Bob Message:

Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 16, 2013 7:29pm)

I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when I see threads like this, my built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I get this off my chest: My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in each book is a 'worker' holding a spot in a thoroughly scripted, choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of guests from all over the world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts and offer the finished product to the mentalism community as examples of how a successful act might be constructed to flow well. To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is that the books are underpriced. Go figure. Thanks, http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Mick Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 7:37pm)

Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide react... :) rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a thread :) Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 16, 2013 7:46pm)

[quote] On 2013-03-16 19:37, THB wrote: Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide react... :) rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a thread :) [/quote] I'm not hiding anything either... :eek: Message:

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 7:56pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 19:29, Mick Ayres wrote: I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when I see threads like this, my built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I get this off my chest: My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in each book is a 'worker' holding a spot in a thoroughly scripted, choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of guests from all over the world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts and offer the finished product to the mentalism community as examples of how a successful act might be constructed to flow well. To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is that the books are underpriced. Go figure. Thanks, Mick

No, Mick. Not referring to you at all. You are better known and more well respected as a creator and performer than you think! Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 8:05pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 19:46, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Quote:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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On 2013-03-16 19:37, THB wrote: Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide react... :) rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a thread :)

I'm not hiding anything either... :eek:

Sorry tony, didn't mean to offend you :) and there is plenty other I didn't mean to offend either :) Message:

Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 16, 2013 9:26pm)

Thanks for the kind, encouraging words, gentlemen. My 'built-in paranoia' is that nasty little imp all performers carry deep in their belly that never stops whispering, "You're not as good as you think...maybe today they pull the carpet out from under you." Stuff like that. :) Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 16, 2013 9:43pm)

Nice thread to start,Mike! It is wonderful to see the 'Step up Guys', post on this thread! :) None,of the questionable creators,have made it here! Gary Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 16, 2013 9:54pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 21:43, Godzilla wrote: None,of the questionable creators,have made it here!

:) what says enough... Jan Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:08pm)

Well, guess we know the creators who play in the price points (and above) listed .... Message:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 10:09pm)

Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy anyone too much! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:22pm)

Quote: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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On 2013-03-16 17:49, Rick Maue wrote: I was told by several young mentalists that I should follow their lead and sell my ebook, The Road, for a couple hundred bucks. After all, it includes a number of my signature pieces from my actual stage act. They insisted that the material had to have a high price. And so, to this day, The Road sells for $22. And my other ebook, Digital Deception, has other signature pieces (The Journey & Imagine), and the same high-priced suggestion from other mentalists resulted in that release coming out at $25. Each creator has to do what is best for them. To me, such high prices simply don't fit who I am. Keep the change, Rick

Don't forget he book of haunted magic - a true gem with gold methods....$35!!!!!! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:24pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 19:29, Mick Ayres wrote: I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when I see threads like this, my built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I get this off my chest: My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in each book is a 'worker' holding a spot in a thoroughly scripted, choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of guests from all over the world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts and offer the finished product to the mentalism community as examples of how a successful act might be constructed to flow well. To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is that the books are underpriced. Go figure. Thanks, Mick

Sorry - your stuff pretty much works 99% of the time having bought them all and used it - doesn't fall into mikes desc of what is being talked about. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:27pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote: Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy anyone too much!

I think he's after some killer sharks or larger... Although some small fries produce so many ebooks full of crap it's like a school of piranhas unleashed (nb: not talking about you iain) So, I guess this thread we are after moby dick???? Aye.... Message:

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 10:35pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote: Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy anyone too much!

How can we forget you, Iain? You've put out a lot of very worthwhile and workable material and have a great future in this biz. And you're not THAT annoying. :eek: Message:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 10:40pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-16 22:35, mastermindreader wrote: And you're not THAT annoying. :eek:

I need to up my game on that then! and thank you kindly, bob...(and for your help whenever I bother you) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 11:13pm)

Here is another person I believe this thread is not about... Patrick Redford - who constantly produces some of the most amazing material that works!!!! His books and items are in the $50 zone and are innovative, fun, and cover material over books sometimes 10 times or more in cost fumble with. In fact, prevaricator is a classic - something he worked on for years and some people came along and put it in their own materials without proper crediting.... I recall some crazy backwards situation where patrick was threatened legally over his an work!!!! Guess some of the people mike is referring too do need some material that is sure fire... And get it in many ways... Not necessarily from their own creative realm. Anyway, figured I'd do a salute to mr Redford! Hey tony - I don't think they mean you either... You produced such wonderful things for less than $20 (audience selection opener is my fav) and have been ripped off in so many ways by so many people, for their own releases its sick. .... Hmmmm.... Message:

Posted by: JohnWells (Mar 16, 2013 11:13pm)

I've had this conversation with several people lately. Some of them small fries like me (Iain is not a small anything btw, and I'm gratefull for the chance to ride his coattails on occasion), and some luminaries in the field. What astounds me is the public back-scratching met with private "can you believe he wanted that much for that junk". Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 16, 2013 11:20pm)

Ha! I recently got a effect from Dr Spektor,cost me zero dollar! Can be done for under a buck,and is fun to do! :) Tony,has been a great help to me in the past also! John,has been there too! You can not put a price,on the helpfulness of some here on Café! Gary Message:

Posted by: Withnail (Mar 17, 2013 6:48am)

Iain, You beat me to the punch! I highly rate all your stuff I've bought and that's not hype, that's truth! This may seem odd, considering I'm angry with the whole Scryer deal being posted about elsewhere, but, regarding Mike's op, maybe people spend a fortune on new books and, if they realise they actually aren't 'all that', then they self-perpetuate the hype in the hope of ramping up the price. I don't mind 'good' books being expensive and value for money - I have Andy N's hardback when I could have bought most of the separate effects for half the price. Was it VFM? Yes, because I use the effects from it to close gig deals with, so it's already paid for itself. But I've spent too much on dross because I've been sucked in by hype and realistically, I'm at the point

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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now where I don't think I really need any more books. I read somewhere that instead of looking for the next latest and greatest, why not go back through the old classics and turn to a page which hasn't been used by anyone else. Look through The Jinx, or Stunners or MIND, or Artful and find something obscure, learn it, then put your own stamp on it. Just a snack for thought... :) Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 7:56am)

Quote:

None,of the questionable creators,have made it here! Gary

my point exactly, you put it a lot better than I did. Message:

Posted by: Steve Suss (Mar 17, 2013 9:35am)

Mike, this is a great thread. I think that too many people are looking for shortcuts and they think that if they purchase the next best thing it will make them famous. Of course, the more expensive this thing is the better it will be. They fail to realize that the magic is not the next best thing but it is in the performer themselves. They never fully realize their potential because they're constantly changing their effects rather than developing them and molding them so they maximize their effectiveness in actual performance. I remember listening to a Cassidy Teleseminar a couple of years ago when Michael Weber quoted someone as saying that it takes about 10 years to truly understand an effect. I could not agree more. Yes, I will continue trying out new ideas In an effort to improve my performances but the bulk of my practice time is developing the act that I already have. I work on little performance details that add up to make a positive improvement. I don't expect a $300 manuscript is going to improve my show. Not without the many years of practice I've devoted to classics that have worked so well for so many performers before. Steve Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:24am)

Ok, now that I did a Redford tribute... Time to do a dr bill tribute!!!! DR BILL Dr bill is clearly someone who produces no ebook before its time. His ebooks are priced again affordably and do not contain tons of fluff... They are lean and very clearly written. From key bends to magic squares... His material works and is powerful - as noted by so many pros who use it including tv specials. He is honest enough to buy ads on the mc unlike many, and he is well regarded as an honest bloke and helpful and likes to continue discussions beyond a book. I do not believe he is part of the group under scrutiny this thread is targeting. Message: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 17, 2013 10:25am) Page 9 of 96

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Quote:

None,of the questionable creators,have made it here! Gary

True. The creators who have commented here are all careful about what they release and I've been happy with what I've received from them. I don't thing I've ever bought any material from Mick but for years I've heard praise about his material from a trusted friend (and I know Mick is a real performer). Quote:

On 2013-03-17 09:35, Steve Suss wrote: Mike, this is a great thread. I think that too many people are looking for shortcuts and they think that if they purchase the next best thing it will make them famous. Of course, the more expensive this thing is the better it will be. They fail to realize that the magic is not the next best thing but it is in the performer themselves. They never fully realize their potential because they're constantly changing their effects rather than developing them and molding them so they maximize their effectiveness in actual performance. I remember listening to a Cassidy Teleseminar a couple of years ago when Michael Weber quoted someone as saying that it takes about 10 years to truly understand an effect. I could not agree more. Yes, I will continue trying out new ideas In an effort to improve my performances but the bulk of my practice time is developing the act that I already have. I work on little performance details that add up to make a positive improvement. I don't expect a $300 manuscript is going to improve my show. Not without the many years of practice I've devoted to classics that have worked so well for so many performers before. Steve

Well said, Steve. Message:

Posted by: DT3 (Mar 17, 2013 10:31am)

Not to go dissing on him when he hasn't even commented on this thread but Sean Waters also charges WAY too little for his work. As do the rest of you fine gentlemen. Message:

Posted by: Withnail (Mar 17, 2013 11:21am)

Combine customer service in with product and anything from scott Grossberg too :)

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 11:32am)

Then there is the wonderful John Riggs I consider him one of the greatest unsung heroes of mentalism His books and DVDs are truly fat free - are way underpriced compared to the crap we are talking about and I've found his material Works and works so well many of his routines are part of my core working sets for presentations (modified for my style natch) I believe he has been ripped off as much as Bruce Bernstein )a lot Riggs I support to the point I just buy anything he puts out as he has established himself as someone who cares about his work and relationships with people lucky enough to connect with him Ugh the more I think of the good guys the more I want to vomit thinking of the others P.s. don't own any Sean waters works but what I've observed is that he contributed wonderfully on forums Doesn't constantly market his work with every post, doesn't say it will start a religion and priced as the other folk I praise So seems he is also someone this thread is not about!!! (Reviews of the work demo he cares about real working material too$ Who also is not what this thread is about???? Hmmmmm Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 11:36am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 10:31, DT3 wrote: Not to go dissing on him when he hasn't even commented on this thread but Sean Waters also charges WAY too little for his work. As do the rest of you fine gentlemen.

You included. I remember Tear for twenty bucks - a set of great routines that you did follow up on... Class act sir Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 11:43am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 11:21, Withnail wrote: Combine customer service in with product and anything from scott Grossberg too :)

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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And I concur greatly - once I bought bauta ( which changed my whole style of reading and got me appreciating systems vs cold reading alone) I went and got everything I could of his. Bauta with the extra CDs is an example of value plus he does share via e discussion great insights - truly a role model too His work is not the high priced no worker material this thread is targeting either I believe Message:

Posted by: WDavis (Mar 17, 2013 2:32pm)

Bruce, The king in yellow smiles with how you conduct yourself. It is ironic how in a thread of no clothes we start speaking of the well dressed... The café seems to be rife with strife, so back to the shadows I go... Walter Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 3:23pm)

Thanks walter!!! Some think I am an illiterate hack with secret agendas hiding behind a pseudonym to caus evil - I am Happy you see my differently :) By the way for all - Walter you don't see much here buy has produced many a fine product such as a nifty wallet, bloody good cries, and a slew of other innovative inventions I have seen him participate and share with others too - and the fact he isn't screaming about his product every post again puts him in the category of trusted creators (in my book at least) who cares about the art Disclaimer - Walter said something nice about me and it may be seen as influencing my post but I say others can attest to the veracity of my claims regarding Walter !!!) Message:

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 17, 2013 3:25pm)

I shall so attest. What you've said about Walter is true. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 3:49pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 15:25, mastermindreader wrote: I shall so attest. What you've said about Walter is true.

Glad we agree on something!!! Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 17, 2013 3:53pm)

Lol, see there is some common ground. :) To quote the 21st century's greatest diplomat, "Kim likes basketball, Obama likes basketball. They have common ground and we can build from there.". Dennis Rodman http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 17, 2013 4:06pm)

This thread makes a pleasant change from the other one. Steve Message:

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 17, 2013 4:20pm)

Yes, Steve, it does. Message:

Posted by: parmenion (Mar 17, 2013 4:37pm)

As many here I bought some very expensive ebook and I'll not do it anymore. I think it's part of a process to become a better performer I think to buy expensives things where at last you don't find anything useful inside but you hope you'll find something in the next one. I've nothing against people sell their ebook very high, because I bought some(a lot) myself, lol They don't force you to buy it, the problem is when they sell-it as limited edition or worses when you read in the next one of the expensives book you bought an expanded version of something you already have in an older one... You feel cheated. Anyway, it's the games, you know when you grow-up when you don't buy them anymore .-) Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 17, 2013 4:47pm)

The nice thing is that you bought and paid (for it) and I read it :) ... I will miss it - whenever I can :). Jan Message:

Posted by: takeachance (Mar 17, 2013 5:10pm)

So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with the advertizing BS tauting it to be an absolute miricle or those who endorse it after getting positive reviews on their own work from them. There seems to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Café that lower your guard on these expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not talking about $10-$50 price range here but more like $100-$300. The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days. Message:

Posted by: Anthony Black (Mar 17, 2013 5:18pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 17:10, takeachance wrote: The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.

They were cheaper ;)

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Posted by: parmenion (Mar 17, 2013 5:25pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 16:47, JanForster wrote: The nice thing is that you bought and paid (for it) and I read it :) ... I will miss it - whenever I can :). Jan

lol Message:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 17, 2013 5:38pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 17:10, takeachance wrote: So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with the advertizing BS tauting it to be an absolute miricle or those who endorse it after getting positive reviews on their own work from them. There seems to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Café that lower your guard on these expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not talking about $10-$50 price range here but more like $100-$300. The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.

its a difficult one, if you ever release material then you will probably want people to check over it - and so you send it to people you admire, respect, TRUST to be honest in return, that kinda thing... sometimes you end up becoming friends with them, which is a fantastic bonus.... its also the frustrating part when people automatically assume that just because you have become friends, that its PURELY hyped feedback...when you know that it isn't...but maybe its not worth the arguing to make your point clear... so, I am very lucky to have john riggs as a friend, bob cassidy, jerome, neal scryer, thomas and rainer, the voodini and a few others - ...those people who will always have far more chops, experience, ability and so on...but they weren't friends at the start - its a slow organic thing as all friendships are - but I bothered most of those people in some way - a question for research purposes, a question about something they released, and it becomes a little more personal and personable along the way...then you http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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ask the BIG question "if its ok, could I please send you something of mine for your opinion please? I know you're busy, or you might just not want to...i understand! thanks for your time regardless - its appreciated." and then you get feedback! be it good, bad or indifferent, and it goes from there...its not JUST any ONE thing, but an organic process...and just because a friend might chip in with something nice to say, it doesn't mean they are playing a game with the rest of the people reading it...i know it happens some times, but its defintely not all the time! and then there's people you become friends with via these kinds of places that are going through the same things as you are - who work hard, are honest, love mentalism, treasure it, do all the good stuff! and you share with them too, talk about stuff you find tough, talk about all kinds of things - and sometimes they are ahead of you, and you love seeing them run with it... and all things in between! who isn't protective, encouraging, helpful, HONEST with the people they call friends?! well...actually - that happens too doesn't it...unrealistic of me to say otherwise, but what I'm getting at is, it is frustrating that something is labelled as hype when its not... I could put up a good list of stuff I'd either bought from friends, or been given as gifts from friends - and every thing I say about those items would be true and honest...if I am behind a product I will say so honestly...never done otherwise.. it is a weird and interesting line though...and others perceptions of some comments are interesting and infuriating in equal measure... Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 17, 2013 5:44pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 16:20, mastermindreader wrote: Yes, Steve, it does.

Although I contributed to the fracas on the other thread, I believe I did so in a fair and honest manner. And I believe no one, however big a name they are, should be untouchable. Steve Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 5:48pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 17:10, takeachance wrote: So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with the advertizing BS tauting it to be an absolute miricle or those who endorse it after getting positive reviews on their own work from them. There seems to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Café that lower your guard on these expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not talking about $10-$50 price range here but more like $100-$300. The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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There have been some going at more than a thousand $ The blurb said it was to keep it only in the "real" professional hands. I hope thes " real" professional got waht they paid for... No book goes for those prices in my "real" job... But then again, if people are willing to pay, why should there be nobody to sell them what they want, its all about being an educated purchaser. And education sometimes comes at aprice... Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 17, 2013 6:57pm)

Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by guru attitude and over priced ebooks" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to buy what we might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices of Bob Cassidly and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :) Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 7:05pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 18:57, Fred Darevil wrote: Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by guru attitude and over priced e-books" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to buy what we might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices of Bob Cassidly and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :)

:) you naughty Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 7:09pm)

...edit... Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 17, 2013 7:22pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 18:57, Fred Darevil wrote: Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by guru attitude and over priced e-books" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to buy what we might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices of Bob Cassidly and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :)

TOO CUTE! ;) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Big hugs, Jerome Message:

Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Mar 17, 2013 7:32pm)

Stephen Young wrote: Although I contributed to the fracas on the other thread, I believe I did so in a fair and honest manner. And I believe no one, however big a name they are, should be untouchable. Steve [/quote] I completely concur with this. Robert. Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 17, 2013 7:50pm)

Nice thread, I may come back! Message:

Posted by: ddyment (Mar 17, 2013 8:17pm)

A strongly related topic to this ran in "Inner Thoughts" a while back. As not everyone is capable of reading that forum, I'll repost my own comments here ... While I certainly recognize the issue here, it seems that many of the practical concerns (from the consumer perspective) can be alleviated simply by letting someone else do your due diligence for you. There's no credible need to be among the first buyers of any new product. And most vendors provide at least some limited endorsements/reviews/whatever for their offerings. So wait until these appear, pick out a name or two that you know and trust, and contact them directly with your questions or concerns about the worth of the product. And if there aren't any names that you know and trust, interpret the situation accordingly. In recent years, I have found that the great majority of published mentalism is little more than a rehash of old ideas, and unworthy of the prices being charged. But I have few purchasing regrets, because I generally check first with a knowledgeable friend or two before forking out any money. And I usually hear that "It's the old xxx method, recycled yet again!" Speaking as an author, I would never dream of putting out a product without first exposing it to a few knowledgeable friends for feedback, not just for originality of ideas, but quality of presentation and clarity of explanation. And those folks who don't have any sufficiently knowledgeable friends (or any over the age of fifty) probably shouldn't be putting out products for sale anyway! Finally (and I have offered this observation previously), one's description of an effect or methodology should always include a description of why it is being published ... why it is better than what's already out there ... what feature(s) it offers that are otherwise unavailable. Doing the groundwork to answer these kinds of questions will generally give one a good indication as to whether or not a given idea truly breaks new ground (and is thus worthy of publication, and the investment of other people's money). Message:

Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 17, 2013 8:41pm)

Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled his last name wrong). Two very smart gentlemen who need to be mentioned on this thread. Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his material is different, detailed and way outside the box.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Mick Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:00pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 20:41, Mick Ayres wrote: Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled his last name wrong). Two very smart gentlemen who need to be mentioned on this thread. Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his material is different, detailed and way outside the box. Mick

I also agree on greg and Paolo... Disclaimer - I've been on projects with them both - their material was commercial, utilitarian and fun. I miss Paolo - he sold his materials at the less than $50 for most of his works. In fact, one book he and I did all proceeds went to charity - international children's wish fund (flytrap).... And yet, the fellow isn't around much anymore for reasons I will not disclose... But I wish we all paid him way more for his works, his stuff really did work - and he was collaborative as all hell - and one of my early mentors when I got serious about the art of mystery entertainment. Man, I wish he was back.

Ryan frame don't know his work yet... Where do we look for it? Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:04pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 16:06, Stephen Young wrote: This thread makes a pleasant change from the other one. Steve

I hope it stays so... I notice the other thread winding downand shadows have snuck in here... Lets hope we all remain civil. I plan to. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:32pm)

As no one mentioned him yet..... BANACHEK

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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psychological subtlety series, DVDs and a slew of other things reasonable priced. One of the major metal benders too.... Yet often seems not mentioned around here... But think when you made your first Tyne bend.... Or that first quarter... Maybe it was because of his instructions you first read some cool things... The fellow still appears here time to time to share wisdom freely. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:35pm)

How about.... MAX MAVEN? Prism series - and a gazillion other releases... Has helped many with researching effects. Not sure if he is here under a pseudonym or not.... But if you think mentalism hasn't been touched by this fellow... I dunno. His works are things to study along with his original work on equivoque Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:45pm)

And lest we ever forget... The legendary creator of the SWITCHCRAFT project ELLIOT BRESSLER who despite the option to up a price for charge for supplements has create IMHO a mythic level living document on billet work in a way that challenges all to dare follow... Plus a nice and modest guy too who is a regular of this place and shares in discussion. No way he is what this thread is about surely!!!!!!' Message:

Posted by: Patrick Redford (Mar 17, 2013 10:47pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-17 22:00, Dr Spektor wrote: Quote:

On 2013-03-17 20:41, Mick Ayres wrote: Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled his last name wrong). Two very smart gentlemen who need to be mentioned on this thread. Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his material is different, detailed and way outside the box. Mick

I also agree on greg and Paolo... Disclaimer - I've been on projects with them both - their material was commercial, utilitarian and fun. I miss Paolo - he sold his materials at the less than $50 for most of his http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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works. In fact, one book he and I did all proceeds went to charity international children's wish fund (flytrap).... And yet, the fellow isn't around much anymore for reasons I will not disclose... But I wish we all paid him way more for his works, his stuff really did work - and he was collaborative as all hell - and one of my early mentors when I got serious about the art of mystery entertainment. Man, I wish he was back.

Ryan frame don't know his work yet... Where do we look for it?

Ryan Frame had some great additions to Prevaricator! You may find his thinking in both the booklet pdf that you can find on the DVD and on the video itself. Exciting news that he's going to be releasing some work! Thanks for your very kind comments above earlier in this thread as well. Very kind of you. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:49pm)

Doh - thanks patrick - I knew I heard it somewhere... Time for me to review prev. DVD!!!! And no thanks needed - just stating my humble opinion!!!!! Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 2:46am)

Jerome : cute isn't it ? ;) "No one should be untouchable" : this is one of the most important idea shared on this thread by one of us. So powerful however that once being said and approved by a few other, nobody dares to name these "untouchables" suggested by the very first message of this topic. Who want to be isolated, taking the risk to be the guy who said bad things about bigger names than him ? Cialdini has very well analyzed the authority principle. Same thing about social proof principle : "what do and say other ? Who I am to disapprove ?". The worst situation is when you are an author yourself. Another principle is in action : reciprocity. Transforming this thread in a "good guys" list is elegant and a charming opportunity for fraternal congratulations and maybe a little bit of... redemption ? ;) Hopefully there will always be one or two free electrons to speak from their heart, braving the always possible collective punishment ! :) Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 3:19am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 02:46, Fred Darevil wrote: Jerome : cute isn't it ? ;) "No one should be untouchable" : this is one of the most important idea shared on this thread by one of us. So powerful however that once being http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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said and approved by a few other, nobody dares to name these "untouchables" suggested by the very first message of this topic. Who want to be isolated, taking the risk to be the guy who said bad things about bigger names than him ? Cialdini has very well analyzed the authority principle. Same thing about social proof principle : "what do and say other ? Who I am to disapprove ?". The worst situation is when you are an author yourself. Another principle is in action : reciprocity. Transforming this thread in a "good guys" list is elegant and a charming opportunity for fraternal congratulations and maybe a little bit of... redemption ? ;) Hopefully there will always be one or two free electrons to speak from their heart, braving the always possible collective punishment ! :)

Nobody is "untouchable", I agree. That said, I'll gladly throw down with ANYONE chiming in on this thread *AND/OR* mentioned in this thread; I don't care who it is, where they're from or what they do. GOT SKILLS? Bring them to me and I'll !@#$%^& show you and your little "dragon cards" what's up...GUARANTEED. If you want to get "huffy", by all means, let's go. Me + YOU + "lay audience" = FORGET YOUR CAREER AND YOUR HOBBY. ;) We can be petty together. I'm not hard to find...you called me out? JF. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 4:08am)

Johnny Doyle: "Oh, did I stutter? Everybody gone all quiet and ****? About a minute ago it was like an evening at the Apollo up in this !@#$%^&, now all of a sudden it's quiet as a church."

;) Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 4:23am)

Fred, You log on, you log off...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Pansy !@#$%. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 4:41am)

When I went to bed this thread was pretty nice. Not sure what happened overnight. Steve Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 4:41am)

Woawww !.. What a powerful demonstration of strength and energy !!! At first, I tought I was just cute. But now I feel like a not so unsignificant prey. Thank you my lord. After all, big wild animals, lords of savanna, never show their lethal fangs unless they feel in danger. Are you in danger ? Have you overestimate my previous joke ? Or, are you not a lord of savanna ? No. I'm sure it's just a demonstration of “The Impenetrable Mind of God”(Romans 11:33-36)which,of course, I can't understand. Remember, I'm no body. Don't be afraid, ignore me. There is no hidden part of an iceberg under my feet : I have only ridiculous dragon cards in hands, nothing more. I do agree with you however : nobody is untouchable. Nobody. That's why, poor little monkey I am, feel free to kick the ass of her majesty the tiger if I feel it's a good thing for freedom of expression. But you are not concerned, even if no body put your name on the above list. Just an omission. And your message is surely not a warning indirectly adressed to all of us who might have in mind now or later to critic your e-books. ------Of course, it's just a joke. A game of words,isn't it ? :) Best, Fred Ps : my audience is not interested by a gladiator's fight, a testosterone demonstration. They want artists. Nothing more. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 4:47am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 04:41, Stephen Young wrote: When I went to bed this thread was pretty nice. Not sure what happened overnight. Steve

Go back to bed. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 4:48am)

I didn't think this thread was about the level of a person's performance (either in isolation or compared to other's) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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But about the value (perceived or real) of work that they put out. Steve Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 4:50am)

Going back to bed is tempting. :) steve Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 5:00am)

Ps1 : "pansy" ? A new word added to my english vocabulary. Not sure I'll use it, however. Not my style. J ? you logg off ? What a little "pansy" you are ! :) After all, this word is quite funny, isn't it ? You are so predictable my friend. Take no offense but I was waiting for another message from you after your "so cute" first message. It was too cute for such a warrior ;) Do you realise that my 400th message on this forum is adressed to you ? Hmm. 400 only. I'm definitely insignificant. ------To the "nice authors list" I would add Eugene Burger. He's not a mentalist but his deep thought transcend all our arts. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:03am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 04:41, Fred Darevil wrote: Woawww !.. What a powerful demonstration of strength and energy !!! At first, I tought I was just cute. But now I feel like a not so unsignificant prey. Thank you my lord. After all, big wild animals, lords of savanna, never show their lethal fangs unless they feel in danger. Are you in danger ? Have you overestimate my previous joke ? Or, are you not a lord of savanna ? No. I'm sure it's just a demonstration of “The Impenetrable Mind of God”(Romans 11:33-36)which,of course, I can't understand. Remember, I'm no body. Don't be afraid, ignore me. There is no hidden part of an iceberg under my feet : I have only ridiculous dragon cards in hands, nothing more. I do agree with you however : nobody is untouchable. Nobody. That's why, poor little monkey I am, feel free to kick the ass of her majesty the tiger if I feel it's a good thing for freedom of expression. But you are not concerned, even if no body put your name on the above list. Just an omission. And your message is surely not a warning indirectly adressed to all of us who might have in mind now or later to critic your e-books. ------Of course, it's just a joke. A game of words,isn't it ? :) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Best, Fred Ps : my audience is not interested by a gladiator's fight, a testosterone demonstration. They want artists. Nothing more.

Never mind...you're cute again! Awwww, JF. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:07am)

[quote] On 2013-03-18 05:00, Fred Darevil wrote: Ps1 : "pansy" ? A new word added to my english vocabulary. Not sure I'll use it, however. Not my style. J ? you logg off ? What a little "pansy" you are ! :) After all, this word is quite funny, isn't it ? You are so predictable my friend. Take no offense but I was waiting for another message from you after your "so cute" first message. It was too cute for such a warrior ;) Do you realise that my 400th message on this forum is adressed to you ? Hmm. 400 only. I'm definitely insignificant. ------Agreed. Message:

Posted by: kambiz (Mar 18, 2013 5:08am)

Now I am in no way a Jerome "worshipper", you can slay him as much as you like Fred, but I will go on record to say this. The 2 most potent effects I ALWAYS go to without fail are Jerome's Energetic Touches and his Inyaga spoon bend. Yes, I've spent a large amount of dollars on his works, but both of these effects can be done any moment you like, instantly.....for real....and that gives it potency, happy to have paid.... I think this thread is unfair if it is targetting Jerome in any way, simply because no-one obviously has taken the time to learn some of Jerome's material. I know several people that would never forgo True Telepathy from their act. Some of the effects in Thought Veil are "unbelievable" and prop-free totally. I would think again, from an unbiased observer Kam Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:24am)

Thanks, Kam! Your words, use of my material, praise and years long friendship will not go unnoticed. That said, YET AGAIN, if anyone in this thread...especially Fred Darevil...and including my established http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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and posting friends/peers/comrades...ANYONE that wants to place themselves and their material up against me and mine...I'm not hard to find. I have 50,000.00 USD I can lose, and I would relish in the opportunity. I have more. Much more. BRING YOUR SKILLS. Put up or shut up. I'll "single out" anyone and everyone. I don't care who it is, where they're from or what they do. I WANT YOU TO BRING YOUR BEST, including you, Fred Darevil. *Any lay audience* (AKA not comprised or composed of your moms, dads, friends, family members and peers...mostly because I would win by sheer numbers alone!)... * ANYWHERE in the world. I buy my own ticket! * You can do whatever you want. *Choose the number of people you wish in attendance...1-10,000...it doesn't matter to me. GOOD LUCK! Be big...don't be a pansy, ya? JF. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:25am)

I can show and prove funds immediately. Let's go. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 5:31am)

And another thread goes south. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:38am)

You too. I'm sick and tired of people talking **** on these boards and forums. Put up, or S.T.F.U! Message:

Posted by: kambiz (Mar 18, 2013 5:41am)

Its not that it went south Stephen. I personally think that any thread that directly or indirectly targets any individual has gone south long before that said individual starts to defend him or herself. This whole thread has "bad feeling" written all over it....why are you surprised its gone the direction its taken? I know Mike may not have intended this direction with the thread, but all of Jerome's material is workable if given the right context and thrashed out properly. Surely, naming EVERY perfiormer and creator other than Jerome is a horrible, inhumane thing to do towards someone who has helped many http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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performers throughout the world, maybe not you, but many others..... Its important to change our frame of reference when we purchase material that doesn't work for us... Kam Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 5:47am)

I don't know if I'm included in that last statement Jerome. I hope I'm not talking ****. I'm just trying to understand why the thread went the way it did. The thread started off as going down the road of listing people who one, some or all, thought produced value for money products. I think I originally posted the notion that nobody should be untouchable. I had no one particular in mind at the time. Nobody likes criticism of course,but I didn't read anyone criticising you as a performer. I don't think you have anything to prove. Steve Message:

Posted by: MatCult (Mar 18, 2013 5:47am)

Edit. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 5:54am)

Kambiz posted as I was typing. I am not surprised actually, just disappointed. And the going south statement was not directed at Jerome just the state of the way threads go here in general. I'm sure there are performers who find effects from unknown creators to be diamonds while some things from superstars to be unworkable, FOR THEM. It's all subjective. And maybe this thread was always going to end like this. Someone leaves out a name that others think should bi included. Some one includes a name that others think shouldn't be there. I just get upset when people get angry with each other (and I'm no angel in that regard, just ask Mr Cassidy) But I do try to be as fair and honest as I can in my posts. I hope others do the same. steve Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:56am)

Stephen, Are you posting in this thread?

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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YOU'RE FAIR GAME TO ME! I respect you, man...but to say this thread "went south" after my post and not the TOTALLY IGNORANT initial message from WTF-ever his name is, is just absurd. My offer stands. JF. Message:

Posted by: Voodini (Mar 18, 2013 5:58am)

I've been lambasted for selling too cheaply, lambasted for being too expensive. Lambasted for offering deals, lambasted for not offering deals. It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world. Except for Lola. Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 5:59am)

And yeah...the Café ****ing sucks these days, but we all already knew that. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 6:11am)

I didn't see it as absurd. Maybe I'll go read the whole thread again but I read the post you refer to as a criticism of the value of things you have sold not your performing abilities. That is completely subjective he is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else. I'm not taking sides, I don't know any of you. My "thread going south" comment was an edit actually. I first typed "this thread has turned into a my ****is bigger than yours exercise" but decided to alter it. The fact that it came directly after your post does not mean it was only related to that post. Think of me as fair game if you wish. I know I am nowhere near the performer that you or a lot of people on here are. I'm not attacking you or anybody. steve Message:

Posted by: Voodini (Mar 18, 2013 6:22am)

I should point out that my post about 'Lola' was my attempt to inject a touch of gentle humour. I should probably have included a smiley! So here's a belated one: :) Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 6:25am)

These flaccid wannabe's have loads and LOADS to say about other people, what they do, how they think, all they create and what they've contributed...I've seen performances from the guy who started this thread, and I wanted to kill myself in the end. You think because YOU DON'T KNOW what your time is worth that I'm supposed to follow suit? I get Mike Ince, Fred Darevil and other fakes & frauds chiming in here...working their desk jobs, nothing to show for their 3-10 months/years (if even that!) involved in the art, craft and science behind what I and others produce and bring to the community...? Not calling out a working man by any means...but he (and you) both cast a stone, directly or http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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indirectly...let me hurl mine. ;) THIS IS MY RESPONSE. If you have a problem with me, what I charge for my life's work and material, working in the trenches, dealt blows, suffering losses, investing more time, money and energy than you yourselves have to spare...if you think (IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM) that you can hang or check nuts, then set it up. Same goes for anyone reading this. The petty bickering here and elsewhere is ridiculous. I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you are, where you're from or what you do. I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME SOMETHING WORTHWHILE...and I'll gladly do the same. If you can't, then keep your stupid ****ing comments to yourself. JF. Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 6:47am)

Quote Steve : "Nobody likes criticism of course, but I didn't read anyone criticising you as a performer. I don't think you have anything to prove." I knew a man during my Ericksonian Hypnosis mastering class who reacted the same way. Each time, people said to him "You have nothing to prove". But he thought he had to. Deep inside him was the doubt about himself. It explained his regular oversized demonstrations of his value and his inner feeling of necessity to destroy his supposed "opponent" public image. He was a nice and clever man however. Giants sometimes have feet of clay. Is there any psychotherapist who never had a client like that ? Not me. That's why I'm not upset. Words are only wind in the mouth which tell about the speaker's mind only. But, although I have empathy for those who speak to me like if I was nothing more than a mosquito on their windshield, and despite the fact that I respect their knowledge, I will always feel free to express my opinion with as much courtesy and confidence I can. And a little bit of humour. So, I confirm that independently of any knowledge of your work Jerome and in coherence with the initial topic of this thread : when I think about guru style and high prices I think about you. I make no confusion between behaviour and identity as any NLP Master Practitioner should understand it, you included. But I do not like the way you communicate about your work. The way you talk to those who bring an honnest critic here about it. The way you forget what Ericksonian and NLP philosophy is all about when dealing with respect of interlocutors. Nothing more, nothing less. And you can call me whenever you want as I'm not impressed and always ready to talk. Try in French my friend and we'll see who has the last word... ;) -----It's a nice thing to celebrate authors we do appreciate. Perhaps I missed the name of Barrie Richardson, if not I'd like to add it on the list. But if nobody is really untouchable, we shouldn't be afraid to say who we disapprove and why, whatever his name is and as long as our critic is fair and honnest. Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 6:55am)

Fred, If you should think of "little old me" as a GURU of any type, that's your doing...not mine.

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BTW, I don't give a **** what you like or dislike (especially with regards to me) and your weak attempts at Ericksonian-based therapy or NLP, in any shape or form, is severely lacking and totally embarrassing. You admit prior that you've never bought a single piece of my work, right? JF. Message:

Posted by: Anthony Black (Mar 18, 2013 7:10am)

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 7:19am)

I have no more time for you. I said what I had to say, nothing to add. Everyone will decide for himself now what is embarassing or not for you and me. No resentment on my side, you are not important enough for me for that. Speak alone if you want, enough space has been taken on this thread for our interaction. ------------Back to the list, I propose Richard Busch. Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 18, 2013 7:45am)

I think we can all draw our own conclusions from this thread can we not? Very interesting indeed. Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 7:50am)

Critics are never popular. It's far more comfortable to be a nice guy, taking no risk. But democracy needs criticism to be democratic. There are only two people on The Café I publicly disapproved : Slim King and Jerome Finley. And I thanked and congratulated many others. One last thing : I checked and remembered that I bought RAOK in april 2008. If I remember well, I had a different opinion about what kindness is, but found interesting ideas for those who know nothing about Ericksonian Hypnosis.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Bye. Message:

Posted by: Al Straker (Mar 18, 2013 7:59am)

Please please please please please show love and respect for each other as we are all 'doing our thing' participating in the artistic pursuit we all love, this crazy thing we call mentalism. Yes we all do this a little differently, but I fail to see the need for harsh judgement of each others efforts where encouragement and reasonable (ie: helpful and sensitive) criticism would surely be far more conducive to advancing the art through elevation of the brave souls who dare to participate. We are all passionate about what we do, why the need to judge and criticise those around us? Surely many of us who really do like to pursue the truth instinctively feel this negative energy cannot be good for either our beloved art or any of us as it's exponents. Peace to all, may happy, constructive thoughts return to Penny's. Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 18, 2013 8:19am)

Agree totally about the names given here. All workers who have contributed their lives and soul to our art. Did anyone mention Doc Hilford here? Message:

Posted by: StJohn (Mar 18, 2013 8:30am)

CarlZen wrote: Every day is controversy here you are supposed to help people not bad mouth them. - The controversy is because of hyping. Carl can you truthful say you never hyped your friends books? Best thing is for all of you don't but anything no one is pulling your arm don't buy anything period. - Not buying is a childish thing to say. If they don't like what your friends do they should not buy anything? Please spare me. it's the same old group that all they do is cause trouble. - It is the same old group that support each other with hype. You and the others over at a special place you keep mentioning where we cant see what your planning next. If people here have a problem with that they are wrong? I am out of here forever much better places than here that conduct themselves properly. - You are gone forever? You say that nearly everytime you post! :) See you again soon I think. Jerome see you in other home. - The other home? Is this the secret forum where you will now plan your next hype? Yes it is! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 8:49am)

Good morning! The Aston I was quiet was I actually went to sleep and got up.... First off, I want to pat myself on the back for predicting this would happen!!!! See my earlier posts!!!! Huzzah!!!! Next, as I tie into my next post - to try to prevent what just happened above.... I tried to demonstrate to http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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a great colleague how to try to do if you got nothing good to say in public say nothing at all and indeed try to start listing and praising heroes of mine of the $150 selling point to keep with the topic and make this about feeling good. Jerome's work I do not have so I cannot comment.... I do have one he sent me years ago called acts of random kindness which had workable material. I do own own the more expensive items.... However... JEROME!!!! A plea!!!' Even under attack by others, don't descend into personal vitriolic swearing and so on.... It cannot help but make you look bad. IMHO - but it's up to you... Ok... Back to my usual installments - who talks about their grandmother and actually works it into a routine? Thomas!!!! And might as well add in Rainer as they are a team of collaborator extraordinaire !!!!! PARALABS!!'mm http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=399281&forum=15 I own most of their works and they are spectacular. My favourite is their lecture notes which look - nay is a slick produced manual... Edited and made through love and time and less than the price we are talking about. Paralogue modified (which I've told Thomas about many a time) is often my stage presentation opener.... That is so powerful it lows things out of the water from many other materials I have.... I've been able to tie it into my favourite theme of showing people they are walking programmable androids :) hee hee Thomas and Rainer often contribute here... And have NEVER said a negative thing (I believe) in a public forum about anyone. True gentlemen of the highest caliber and I hope to meet them some day!!!! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 8:50am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 08:19, Christopher Gould wrote: Agree totally about the names given here. All workers who have contributed their lives and soul to our art. Did anyone mention Doc Hilford here?

I didn't get to him yet - but Chris - go for it!!!! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 8:54am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 08:30, StJohn wrote: CarlZen wrote: Every day is controversy here you are supposed to help people not bad http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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mouth them. - The controversy is because of hyping. Carl can you truthful say you never hyped your friends books? Best thing is for all of you don't but anything no one is pulling your arm don't buy anything period. - Not buying is a childish thing to say. If they don't like what your friends do they should not buy anything? Please spare me. it's the same old group that all they do is cause trouble. - It is the same old group that support each other with hype. You and the others over at a special place you keep mentioning where we cant see what your planning next. If people here have a problem with that they are wrong? I am out of here forever much better places than here that conduct themselves properly. - You are gone forever? You say that nearly everytime you post! :) See you again soon I think. Jerome see you in other home. - The other home? Is this the secret forum where you will now plan your next hype? Yes it is!

Hmmm. Who wants to know who carlzen is????? Raise your hands!!!!!! As many of us know!!!!! And we will know if you post again under your other multiple aliases!!!! Now then, lets see what happens next!!!!! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 9:15am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 05:58, Voodini wrote: I've been lambasted for selling too cheaply, lambasted for being too expensive. Lambasted for offering deals, lambasted for not offering deals. It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world. Except for Lola. Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rVFsYfB4cmQ Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 9:22am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 08:49, Dr Spektor wrote: Good morning! The Aston I was quiet was I actually went to sleep and got up.... First off, I want to pat myself on the back for predicting this would happen!!!! See my earlier posts!!!! Huzzah!!!! Next, as I tie into my next post - to try to prevent what just happened above.... I tried to demonstrate to a great colleague how to try to do if you got nothing good to say in public say nothing at all and indeed try to start listing and praising heroes of mine of the $150 selling point to keep with the topic and make this about feeling good. Jerome's work I do not have so I cannot comment.... I do have one he sent me years ago called acts of random kindness which had workable material. I do own own the more expensive items.... However... JEROME!!!! A plea!!!' Even under attack by others, don't descend into personal vitriolic swearing and so on.... It cannot help but make you look bad. IMHO - but it's up to you... Ok... Back to my usual installments - who talks about their grandmother and actually works it into a routine? Thomas!!!! And might as well add in Rainer as they are a team of collaborator extraordinaire !!!!! PARALABS!!'mm http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php? topic=399281&forum=15 I own most of their works and they are spectacular. My favourite is their lecture notes which look - nay - is a slick produced manual... Edited and made through love and time and less than the price we are talking about. Paralogue modified (which I've told Thomas about many a time) is often my stage presentation opener.... That is so powerful it lows things out of the water from many other materials I have.... I've been able to tie it into my favourite theme of showing people they are walking programmable androids :) hee hee Thomas and Rainer often contribute here... And have NEVER said a negative thing (I believe) in a public forum about anyone. True gentlemen of the highest caliber and I hope to meet them some day!!!!

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Man, I hate my ipad.... Just some corrections! I am focusing on work under $150 I do not own jerome's work except raok Add: We are talking about books etc not people or their personal performances I believe... Like Stephen said. IMHO There is a difference IMHO Ah, this is like smelling napalm in the morning! Cue the Valkyries !! N Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 18, 2013 9:40am)

I posted in this thread too, it is below. If anyone has a problem with what I said, let's talk. I'm in the book and have no qualms on face to face meetings. If you want me to bring a tape measure, I can. I said nothing here that I have not said before both in private and in public. [quote] On 2013-03-16 14:29, Tony Iacoviello wrote: I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was around $20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick). Creators and authors can price their material as they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it wants it at that price. There is a difference between a mass produced commercial publication and a private publication. The two cannot be compared. And it has been common throughout the history of our art for private, limited distribution publications to go for high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at that time, a huge sum. I did do something a little different though. I offered to refund those not happy with what they received. I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had some of the material from another publication I was include in. When my material was released by a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee. Tony [/quote] I did not comment on anyone else, that is not my place. Tony Iacoviello Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 10:02am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 09:40, Tony Iacoviello wrote: I posted in this thread too, it is below. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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If anyone has a problem with what I said, let's talk. I'm in the book and have no qualms on face to face meetings. If you want me to bring a tape measure, I can. I said nothing here that I have not said before both in private and in public. Quote:

On 2013-03-16 14:29, Tony Iacoviello wrote: I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was around $20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick). Creators and authors can price their material as they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it wants it at that price. There is a difference between a mass produced commercial publication and a private publication. The two cannot be compared. And it has been common throughout the history of our art for private, limited distribution publications to go for high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at that time, a huge sum. I did do something a little different though. I offered to refund those not happy with what they received. I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had some of the material from another publication I was include in. When my material was released by a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee. Tony

I did not comment on anyone else, that is not my place. Tony Iacoviello

I feel bad that I only mentioned tony briefly in response to his initial post as an amazing creator. I want to add to it now!!! Tony has put out books on openers, special double writing, some bizarre effects and more. His material is not only workable - it has often been stolen!!! Tony's greatest strength and perhaps weakness is he shares so much with us all offline he also divulges gold nuggets of his own personal repitoire that somehow end up uncredited in many others books and effects for sale. One could say "no proof" but I and others have seen the material from tony years in advance before others came out with it almost verbatim.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Tony was one of the kind ones who welcomed me to the Café when I first came aboard here - a friendly peer mentor and shared a lot. I hope someday I can share as much as he... Although I am much more suspicious of sharing with some around here :bat: Tony to me is a true icon of the magic Café.... And it is sad to me he isn't a VIP here because he didn't market himself to look like a giant - which he truly is in spirit and creativity. He is one of the healthy stabilising elements of the magic Café. Oh yeah, his books are under $150 - and anything he has put out for sale is workable beyond measure as tons of people use it. In fact, I call upon many to take this opportunity to say some thanks to tony - a very under appreciated creative friend to us all. If you so go to his house - I hope it's to shake his hand or give him a hug. Great regret: not being available the rare time he actually visited Toronto :( Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 18, 2013 10:14am)

Wow, thank you!!! I'm at a loss for words (a rare thing). Message:

Posted by: CarlZen (Mar 18, 2013 10:39am)

Tony is the finest human being I have ever met he is a class act.You to Dr Spector you are a fine gent and I respect you as well.Now this is farewell for good may you all have a blessed day. Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 18, 2013 12:09pm)

I have a Challenge to all you guys on,Penny! Let's see who can be the,nicest? Here I'll start... If loving you all is Wrong,I don't want to be Right! :) Message:

Posted by: Alwow (Mar 18, 2013 12:29pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 07:10, Anthony Black wrote: ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Was thinking the same thing! Message:

Posted by: CarlZen (Mar 18, 2013 12:29pm)

Godzilla I love yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 12:33pm)

Too early for a group cyber hug ? Steve Message:

Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Mar 18, 2013 1:08pm)

What a hysterical thread! All that was missing was a newbie asking "Do any of you guys know how Darren done that trick on TV last night?" He would have been eaten alive!! :lol: Message:

Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 18, 2013 1:08pm)

I will admit I was very annoyed when I discovered that the $87.34 manuscript that was purported to be "The Real Work" was nothing more than an unperformable variation on the old Melson-Fleam Bellybutton & Pancake gambit. But then again, the world is at sixes and sevens, the dogs are sticking to the sidewalks and why our house hasn't fallen down around us is a mystery to me. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 1:21pm)

:) Message:

Posted by: DT3 (Mar 18, 2013 2:11pm)

Quote:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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On 2013-03-18 13:08, drhackenbush wrote: I will admit I was very annoyed when I discovered that the $87.34 manuscript that was purported to be "The Real Work" was nothing more than an unperformable variation on the old Melson-Fleam Bellybutton & Pancake gambit. But then again, the world is at sixes and sevens, the dogs are sticking to the sidewalks and why our house hasn't fallen down around us is a mystery to me.

I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me. Message:

Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 18, 2013 2:14pm)

[quote] On 2013-03-16 13:04, Mike Ince wrote: There are a few hot creators in the mentalism market who produce a lot of risky material. By risky, I mean sometimes it works and sometimes it fails to produce a good effect. I like the idea of taking risks alongside surefire methods because it can result in unexplainable moments that bolster the whole effect. What's hard to understand is the cult following these creators have despite their very expensive, limitedrelease books. Their volumes are full of interesting yet mostly unreliable material, usually including a few effects that work well but aren't groundbreaking. Some buyers will pay over $200 for one book of psychological forces they could have easily thought of for themselves, plus a few decent effects thrown in (but never enough to justify the price). Meanwhile Banachek's entire PS trilogy costs $165 and includes both psy-forces and workhorse routines that frankly leave the new books in the dust. I find myself thinking, "Why are folks at the Café raving about this new book? Who is this guy? Are they all his friends? He's okay but he isn't any more creative than my friends in mentalism are. Has anyone ever seen him perform?" Sometimes I think, "This book is mediocre and the price is high to make it seem more wonderful than it is. It's a psychological ploy to make people value the material more; buyers want what's harder to attain." Or worse, "This author is a flim-flam man and the Magic Café is where he finds his willing marks." Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't get it, but I feel this way most often about material created by guys who are "playing it for real". I guess they work for audiences full of followers and can say and do many things without scrutiny, things I can't get away with in a show for skeptics at the university. Yet these creators seem to be nice guys and no one wants to write a bad review. Instead, buyers quietly and politely dump these books in the "Let's Make a Magic Deal" forum. When we flatter people for their mediocre work it takes away from our praise of excellent work, and there is so much excellent work out there. Give me thoughtful creators like Bruce Bernstein, Bob Cassidy, Doug Dyment, Ted Karmilovich and Richard Mark to name a few. I'm done with the new kids, done with the self-described gurus who talk a good game but won't allow their performances to be seen by us. If they wanna' charge $15 for an ebook I might support them but no way am I paying $250 for another steaming pile of "new". I took the bait once and learned my lesson. [/quote] Mike I agree with your original posts 100% before getting derailed. We all know who you are referring to, if not you need to sharpen up on your mentalism skills. This same topic is being discussed in several mentalism communities as well. Funny how so many paranoid creators have chimed in to quickly defend themselves. Don't worry you have nothing to worry about. As Mike referred to new, unknown, unproven, high-priced, who we've never seem perform (as in real performance not to a camera or friends), with cult-like followings. I've addressed this before and have got the old bully gang up style response. I'm sure it is coming in this

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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thread shortly too. Tony, Banachek, Patrick Redford, Mick, Larry Becker, Bob Cassidy, Jerome, Luke, Doug, Ted, Richard Mark, Osterlind, all are fine, they don't meet this criteria. They are known, proven (each to their own degree) and have credibility and most offer performance experience that is known. Fact is this has taken over this forum and many of the posts here. You no longer can get a decent review, a pre-release review, or an unbiased or impartial review pre or post release. Hell most if the time they will not even offer information in their release or hype if their material or content is created or designed for stage closeup, walkaround or street. I can't tell you how many times I've been burned by this. Their response to this is always "well you should be able to adapt it to your own performance situation". That is not the point. By not specifying it is deliberately misleading or withholding info from the buyer as to improve sales. Then when you try to discuss it here threads turn nasty, defensive and gang-up style. Quality discussions can't even be had anymore. I too am done with it and I applaud Mike for speaking up. This section of the Café used to be so helpful, supportive and non-evasive towards new products and releases. There's too may newbie creators that show a few friends, who in turn come on here as some type of authorty offer extremely biased reviews, manufactured enthusiasm and inappropriate techniques of supporting these people, their releaes and this type of hype and behavior. Remember the days when someone's material and content was their mouthpiece? Where they didn't need their cult of followes constantly stating how great it was, how blown away they were and of course declaring the new guy to be the greatest new mind in mentalism, blah, blah, blah. When the creator themselves wouldn't have to tell you how great it is? Remember when success was determined by what others thought? Or when credible names like Osterlind, Banachek, Cassidy or others would come on here and praise a new release. When purchasers and the actual content was the judge? It's no longer happening here. Worse yet is most of it's (the released material) nothing new. It either just been newly discovered by these kids and they get overly excited like when they first discovered their pee pee, or it is simply their "take" on longtime, common or standard mentalism fare. Neither justifies these high prices. It's nothing more than manufactured exclusivity, more than likely coming from some marketing guru course or seminar. It's about generating money and self-manufactured "legend"and false credibility. These things used to be determined by others not themselves and their cheerleaders. They suck in a few followers and they become part of the movement. I'm not a creator and have never claimed to be. Most here are not either. So it's sadly this majority of this community that gets screwed. No we don't have to buy it, but we still have to put up with the uninvited nonsense on our neighborhood. Every once in a while someone like Mike says it like it is in an attempt to restore property values. Members of the squad are already here. As I said, get ready, here it comes... Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 18, 2013 2:17pm)

Wow some cool moderating clean up occurred while I was away living life :) Anyway.... More on topic regarding material that may not always work - although I believe it's the performer who can make almost anything work (not make it the outcome you wishes but can turn most things into appearing intended if you get my drift)... I am going to wander into kenton land... Yes, Kenton and some of his students are some really greats... But for whatever reason I wanted to pay special tribute to one first ENRIQUE ENRIQUEZ http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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I first came across his work in the act of imagination - something that struck me as WHOAAAA THIS IS REALLY AMAZING - it was Abilene of waking suggestion and words in a way that it appeared it wasn't hypnosis but was... You'd have to read it to get it and think of it.... Then came his invisible series... And his work of metaphoric readings etc... All of this was less than $50 a piece and has material people have used again without crediting him as being a forerunner for many today.... I've been ale to take many of his principles and use them right away - and it was what really got me into language and meaning use in a unique way... He also is a friendly soul who has been polite and is clearly passionate about the art. He is someone I'd love to meet and just watch him do readings all day Anyway, back to mike inces original post - this is material tha is not sure fire and is more in the hands of the performer to figure out how to use it. However, I believe Enrique gives always enough information, background, and examples to really get a feel of what to do.... Anyway, Kenton knepper Ill save for later.... Enrique to me has a special place beyond pure kentonismhe was a pioneer imagineering master Message:

Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 18, 2013 2:24pm)

An amazingly revelatory thread. Personalities revealed far beyond their intent. Assumptions confirmed: Idjits be idjits, and pompous idjits be more pompous than is tolerable. The calm and peaceful remain so, the frantic more so. Really interesting so far...One more reason I love this place. Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 18, 2013 5:07pm)

Strange, the thread started interesting, then turned into o marketplace of vanities, I did not know why but now I know why. Jan Message:

Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 18, 2013 5:37pm)

Darn, I wish I hadn't read this thread. I didn't look at it for a long time and, now that I have, I am trying to decide wether sharing my opinion will be helpful or just fan the flames. I recently, jokingly, released an reading method in Inner thoughts that I was calling a "$75 ebook" (or $50, or $100, I don't remember) as a joke on some people who release "the real work," at inflated prices, when it can be had for $5 through Llewellyn publishing. It was meant to be a light-hearted, joking way of sharing a reading method that I like a lot. As I was writing that thread I actually got worried that some might think I was talking about Jerome (since he has some detractors here) so I made sure to add a caveat. For the record I think Jerome releases very good stuff. I think it's important to notice, in regards to the thread 'heading south,' that several authors who's work is priced very reasonably and who's integrity no one questions where immediately concerned that they were being talked about in the initial post. Is it any wonder then that Jerome, who prices his ebooks in the range the original post mentions and has had detractors on the Café, would feel defensive? Especially once he is directly named? For what it's worth I have given Jerome some large sums for some of his work, and I have been thoroughly satisfied with what I have received. Jerome has an amazing history and background that he brings to his work and a perspective on mentalism that I for one really like. There are several routines of his that I have used very successfully and several that I am currently in the process of working on and I am very excited about (one the latter being "energetic touches" that was mentioned earlier). There are also many routines that I have not used but have got me thinking in different ways. Also, as was noted earlier, Jerome is an established performer with experience; not a total beginner who is releasing stuff we all already know. Whether any of that justifies the price to any given individual is, http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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obviously, up to the individual, but I felt like I should share my thoughts. ...I will now go hide in a corner! lol :) Message:

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 18, 2013 5:43pm)

I wish I could respond in more detail but I'm away on business with only my phone. Let me introduce myself. My name really is Mike Ince. I grew up at a magic shop starting at age 15. While there I developed a sense of value, a nose for the kind of strong material I like. While I always did mental magic in my shows, I went completely mental about five years ago. I'm a part-time performer and haven't represented myself any other way. I do 6-10 stand-up performances per year and the rest is up-close. To my knowledge none of these are available for public viewing except 2 clips taken last December at a variety show at a residence, starring local magicians and performed for an audience comprised of about 50% magicians. I never posted the links here because they aren't my best. I did learn from watching them and right now they can be viewed on YouTube by searching my name plus "Half-n-half 2012". I may post links later in Inner Thoughts to discuss what I learned from those short spots. I'm not sure why they made Jerome feel suicidal but he's free to comment on publicly viewable footage. I don't perform to please Jerome. He and I are worlds apart when it comes to the characters we portray. I bought one of his works and found two things I could use but only one that fit my show at the time. Others may get more mileage from what he's published but his style wasn't a good fit for me. I paid my hundreds and am also free to comment on that publication. I expect to be able to do so without bullying responses though I've never reviewed anything of his here-this is the first time I've said peep about it and I want him to see I'm not being vicious. Guys who buy his stuff know what they're getting by now and seem happy with what they pay for. It ain't my thing. Fair? I released a small set of notes as an ebook last year called Better Returns. They're $15 and I may offer them with a money-back guarantee. I liked Tony's post about that. Until this thread derailed I liked how positive it had become. There are so many quality releases in our community and the creators should get a little recognition, even if they didn't make a fortune in publishing. MindPro, thanks for your thoughts. You clearly understood what I was getting at. One more thing - in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes the lesson was everyone was afraid of stating the obvious. That is why I titled this thread The Emperor Has No Clothes. Forgive me if you misunderstood "no clothes" to mean certain creators have nothing to offer. They do; much of it is overvalued IMO and I hope they come down to Earth and offer their best without even the appearance of cult marketing strategies. Message:

Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 18, 2013 6:03pm)

I got the impression Jerome was actually being tongue-in-cheek, at first I thought he was going ballistic then read the thread again and it seemed like he just being lightheartedly over-the-top pretending to be like a prizefighter psyching out an opponent. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but he did seem to be less serious than it first appeared. Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 18, 2013 6:12pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 18:03, drhackenbush wrote: ...I have no idea what I'm talking about...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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But why do you talk then ? :) Jan Message:

Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 18, 2013 6:17pm)

That is the question... Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 18, 2013 6:25pm)

:) :) Message:

Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 18, 2013 7:06pm)

Since names have been named, I am going to comment on two. I am lucky enough to have two ebooks by Jerome, and to have a number of Paul Voodini's, some very expensive, others less so. The first time I did Jerome's Energetic Touches the man I did it for looked completely stunned. It is a real worker. Jerome's stuff is very expensive, but is aimed at people who work. Two gigs would pay for Jerome's most expensive ebook. Four gigs would pay for a box illusion. Which would be more useful to me? If I were a rich man I would have no hesitation paying Jerome's prices, because the stuff is worth it. Is he over-priced? That is down to the buyer, but I suspect that he would not keep those prices unless people were paying them. And the people paying them are not newbies, and are not being taken for a ride. The most expensive thing I bought from Paul (Midnight Side of the Mind) was a steal, considering the use I have made of the material. I would love to have got it for $15, but was quite happy to pay ten times this amount. Last year I did a weekend of hypnosis training which cost me £600 I did not have at the time. But that investment improved my act tremendously. Jerome and Paul's works have done the same for me. They are investments in my magic. I have bought plenty of $15 dollar ebooks which have not made it into my act. On a personal level I have found Jerome to be a friendly, helpful and supportive fellow. He has come in for some stick here, but it is undeserved. Paul (though his stuff is a lot cheaper than Jerome's, even at the top end) is also a friendly and helpful guy. Tony Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 18, 2013 7:24pm)

Sorry, but I never thought that the theme of this thread was intended to point into the direction of Jerome or Paul. They are both far beyond this discussion. Jan Message:

Posted by: DT3 (Mar 19, 2013 6:35am)

Now let's all go watch Skyfall together! Message:

Posted by: DT3 (Mar 19, 2013 6:38am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 18:03, drhackenbush wrote: I got the impression

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Which method are you using? Feel free to take this to PM, Doctor. Message:

Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 19, 2013 6:52am)

Remember I mentioned bellybuttons and pancakes? 'Nuff said. Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 19, 2013 7:26am)

I think the subject is a very broad canvas with very little black and white. There is such a lot of grey areas (around 50 perhaps. It's very easy to talk about extremes. At one extreme, the $150+ book (electronic or real) that contains either one padded out over-hyped effect. Or the similarly priced offering that contains work that only those with a very specific persona/presentational style could pull off. The other extreme is the $50 or less gem that is a dream to perform and hits hard. But what about the expensive book that does contain workable material that is able to be performed in a variety of styles and by different personas? I have bought 5 books that could be considered to be in the expensive category. (subjective I know) Of these three were one-effect books (with variations maybe but still basically one effect) and two contained a series of effects. The ones that I feel were value for money were UNREAL and BIGGER FISH.(multi effect books) and THREE ENVELOPE TEST (single effect book) That's not to say the others weren't good books. The effects in them were very good, but IMHO overpriced. Other people may find different things work for them, and a book that contains effects that don't suit me, may be the holy grail for someone else. What I find difficult is when reviews come in that say "Not everyone will understand this work" or "This will not suit every performer" How is one to make an informed decision on whether to purchase. I'm quite happy to take a chance on things in life, others may need more information before purchasing. That's it really Steve Message:

Posted by: Peter_turner (Mar 19, 2013 8:03am)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 07:26, Stephen Young wrote: I think the subject is a very broad canvas with very little black and white. There is such a lot of grey areas (around 50 perhaps. It's very easy to talk about extremes. At one extreme, the $150+ book (electronic or real) that contains either one padded out over-hyped effect. Or the similarly priced offering that contains work that only those with a very specific persona/presentational style could pull off. The other extreme is the $50 or less gem that is a dream to perform and http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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hits hard. But what about the expensive book that does contain workable material that is able to be performed in a variety of styles and by different personas? I have bought 5 books that could be considered to be in the expensive category. (subjective I know) Of these three were one-effect books (with variations maybe but still basically one effect) and two contained a series of effects. The ones that I feel were value for money were UNREAL and BIGGER FISH. (multi effect books) and THREE ENVELOPE TEST (single effect book) That's not to say the others weren't good books. The effects in them were very good, but IMHO overpriced. Other people may find different things work for them, and a book that contains effects that don't suit me, may be the holy grail for someone else. What I find difficult is when reviews come in that say "Not everyone will understand this work" or "This will not suit every performer" How is one to make an informed decision on whether to purchase. I'm quite happy to take a chance on things in life, others may need more information before purchasing. That's it really Steve

Thanks for feeling Bigger fish was worth it :D It was a very important turning point for me. Much love brother x Message:

Posted by: RLFrame (Mar 19, 2013 8:43am)

First of all, thanks to Patrick Redford and Mick Ayres for their kind thoughts. Secondly, people have the right to sell whatever they want for whatever they want. Third, my perspective on message boards is that they largely represent an opportunity lost: So many creative people who share the same passion, but who repeatedly show that they can't get along. That said however, I keep coming back. Why? For me it's like gold mining, you have to go through a lot of dirt to get a nugget, but I would not have come by the nugget otherwise. I have met and correspond with some wonderful people and I have found some great ideas through this medium. I found some great equivoque strategies discussed some time ago, and some fantastic ideas on a Colin McLeod's Kolintrol routine more. Both tiny little changes in the wording that make a big difference. I wish there were more of such exchanges, but the few that are make it worthwhile. All of which is related to the subject at hand. I purchased Patrick's Ultimate Ring Of Truth manuscript years ago. I liked the plot and loved the method, but because it is not 100%, particularly when I was new to it, I didn't perform it. I didn't want to fail and look like a bum. So I played around with some other logic principles that I was playing with and come up with a way to succeed via logic even if I did not recognize the tell. I figured I was not alone in being apprehensive about performing it, so I shared it with Patrick and he included it on the Prevaricator DVD. I would not have purchased Patrick's manuscript, nor Colin's "Opening Minds" DVD's at

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$100. The point of all of this is that with a high priced exclusive release, and again, every creator is free to do so, what you can lose is the opportunity to make it even better, or easier, or-fail safe, or another great application of, or a great presentation for etc., through ideas that come only as a result of many people playing with and thinking about the idea such as happened with Kolintrol, or Prevaricator, ot the Hoy card principle or the Dunninger Ploy, or many others. And not to be preachy, but it is basically the same opportunity lost when thousands of creative people who share the same passion get together everyday and spend energy in a negative instead of helpful way. Ryan Message:

Posted by: brehaut (Mar 19, 2013 10:37am)

At the end of the day, I think it is about the strength of the material rather than the price. A piece of crap is a piece of crap for $15 or $150. A provacative new effect or presentation or method can be gem regardless of whether it is $15 or $500. I have purchased material for $15 that I use all the time and some that I read once and threw away. The same can be said about higher price items. So for me to focus on the price is irrelevant---the question is am I buying something of quality? Our art form is interesting. When we sell an effect, many times we are just selling a secret (unless it involves a prop that is expensive to make). How do you put a price on a secret? I have struggled with this. I truely believe it is up to the creator. I have been involved in other hobbies like coin collecting where a relatively common coin sells for $600 or $700. Is paying $150 for someone's closely guarded secret too much? I have paid $250 to play the Harbor Town Golf Course (once for 4 hours). Is $250 too much to ask for a book of strong material? Again, the answer will depend on whether the material is truely strong or not. But as I started, crap is crap at any price---its not a dollar issue. I do think there is a certain segment that simply thinks all effects for sale should be inexpensive so that they can learn all the secrets. that's just not the way it works. Anyway, at the end of the day I try to buy quality and respect the performer's price point. And if I can't afford his price---instead of complaining I either save up or move on to something else. Message:

Posted by: NYNick (Mar 19, 2013 1:02pm)

Laugh all you like some of you don't deserve the real good stuff.My opinion Neal should just sell to his friends. He has a lot and they can support him. Every one else just buy$15 ebooks that's what you deserve. Message:

Posted by: Smoking Camel (Mar 19, 2013 1:05pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 13:02, NYNick wrote: Laugh all you like some of you don't deserve the real good stuff.My opinion Neal should just sell to his friends. He has a lot and they can support him. Every one else just buy$15 ebooks that's what you deserve.

Thanks for the tip. Message:

Posted by: NYNick (Mar 19, 2013 1:09pm)

Your welcome. Thanks for the thanks. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 19, 2013 2:02pm)

... And now for my next instalment... Perhaps controversial... But not to me... Is the amazing also under appreciated IMHO http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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RICHARD OSTERLIND Despite inventing numerous things and being ripped off as much as my other big heroes - he also still goes on to offer materials in affordable ranges... DVDs books and so on way under the $150. - those that are over $100 are multidisks with tons of material. Now, some might argue that some offerings are mental magic vs mentalism etc and that his style works for some effects he presents while others not so... But he still teaches in a very clear way... Is an engaging personality.... His many credits behind him... And although I've seen some angry outbursts I've seen him apologise or work through most issues... But not blatant theft (e.g. Moveo) or direct insults (where someone here basically twisted comments from a book of a friend of his into an insult etc).... I have never regretted buying his materials or his gimmicks as they are all commercial and usable and actually tested under fire. He also contributes here on the mc but not as much after often getting IMHO cyber bullied a lot... But still he is here. Do ia gree with everything he says? No - but I respect him as a person, a creator, and a performer we can all learn from in one way or another. Again, I found many of his effects he sells so easy to learn methodologically one can spend most time on presenting and honing your own character. Anyway, I don't believe the thread concept here applies to him either. He offers high quality items or stops selling them if he finds its not up to his own standard. IMHO . Message:

Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 19, 2013 2:31pm)

I don't have works from everyone listed by Dr Spektor, but I certainly have to agree on everyone that I am familiar with. Message:

Posted by: parmenion (Mar 19, 2013 2:54pm)

I also like Richard's work! At beginning I was not fan of his work and know I'm a more experienced performer I can fully appreciate his work. Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 19, 2013 3:04pm)

If you want it, buy it. if you can't afford, don't. if you like it, praise, if you don't, don't, if you're happy with your purchase, buy again, if youre not happy with purchase, give a second chance. if youre still not happy don't buy anymore. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do... Message:

Posted by: parmenion (Mar 19, 2013 3:16pm)

Arthur Rimbaud? Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 19, 2013 3:19pm)

Presque, Chantal Goya... Message: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Quote:

On 2013-03-19 15:04, THB wrote: If you want it, buy it. if you can't afford, don't. if you like it, praise, if you don't, don't, if you're happy with your purchase, buy again, if youre not happy with purchase, give a second chance. if youre still not happy don't buy anymore. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do...

Are you an anarchist? Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 19, 2013 3:32pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 15:29, Smoking Camel wrote: Quote:

On 2013-03-19 15:04, THB wrote: If you want it, buy it. if you can't afford, don't. if you like it, praise, if you don't, don't, if you're happy with your purchase, buy again, if youre not happy with purchase, give a second chance. if youre still not happy don't buy anymore. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do...

Are you an anarchist?

Not far, libertarian.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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don't you agree with me? :) Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 19, 2013 3:32pm)

"BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do..." Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No offense, just kidding. ---------------+1 for Richard Osterlind. +2 for Enrique Enriquez. I remember his great contributions on Mentalist Alliance forum. Mr Enriquez is deeply human and wise. It has always been a pleasure to interact with him. I didn't see Ted Lesley on the list. He was a man I appreciated very much. A few weeks before he died he told me about his personnal problems. It made me very sad. I will always remember this gentleman asking me for permission to use a personnal idea. It was so weird for me. I'm affraid too many people forgot him in the last very difficult years of his life. Paramiracles is a book which should be read by any mentalist. Message:

Posted by: migwar (Mar 19, 2013 3:35pm)

I think people spending hard earned money on products have the right to express either pleasure or displeasure on the purchased products. Message:

Posted by: tomsk192 (Mar 19, 2013 3:41pm)

Quite so. Interpreting a poor review as being 'told what to do' seems to be faintly ludicrous. Perhaps it is my misunderstanding. Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 19, 2013 3:45pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 15:32, Fred Darevil wrote: "BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do..." Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No offense, just kidding.

I know :) That's the anarchist main problem isn't it. You can't really impose your views Such a shame :)

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I would love to impose anarchism to the world. By force if necessary. :) :) Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 19, 2013 6:30pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 15:32, Fred Darevil wrote: "BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, should you try to tell others what to do..." Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No offense, just kidding. ---------------+1 for Richard Osterlind. +2 for Enrique Enriquez. I remember his great contributions on Mentalist Alliance forum. Mr Enriquez is deeply human and wise. It has always been a pleasure to interact with him. I didn't see Ted Lesley on the list. He was a man I appreciated very much. A few weeks before he died he told me about his personnal problems. It made me very sad. I will always remember this gentleman asking me for permission to use a personnal idea. It was so weird for me. I'm affraid too many people forgot him in the last very difficult years of his life. Paramiracles is a book which should be read by any mentalist.

I didn't get to Ted yet... or Becker... there are so many greats when you think about it... Aside: I believe the Joker in the Dark Knight was trying to impose his view that there is no use for any rules... and was always trying to break everyone who had any personal rules. Message:

Posted by: HeatherV (Mar 19, 2013 8:10pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-18 13:08, innercirclewannabe wrote: What a hysterical thread! All that was missing was a newbie asking "Do any of you guys know how Darren done that trick on TV last night?" He would have been eaten alive!! :lol:

....uhm....I'll just shut up because OF COURSE I want to know how DB does stuff! Duh. (and yes, I am a http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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newbie, so nyah!) Play on players. Message:

Posted by: THB (Mar 19, 2013 8:45pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-19 18:30, Dr Spektor wrote: I believe the Joker in the Dark Knight was trying to impose his view that there is no use for any rules... and was always trying to break everyone who had any personal rules.

Indeed, And what a charactwr he is, One of the best vilains around :) Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 19, 2013 10:08pm)

I think we should now turn our attention back to someone who somehow often does not get his full due as a master of mind mysteries,,,, I say turn back as BRUCE BERNSTEIN had already been mentioned - but it was too quick and lumped in with a bunch of ther names. I had been collecting bb's works before UNREAL came out and thus often pointed out to many new releases that seemed to be using his work without crediting him - you'll find many such posts of mine on the magic Café. His work is direct and swift and powerful - not an ounce of wasted space or filler. Many of you have found out about him since UNREAL came out.... And just like prism and similar, I have mixed feeling of having such gems get out yet realise its great to finally see the proof of all the things bb pioneered.... Like EAT AT JOES the c affair (my fav thing to add in al,ost everywhere) and so much more... Plus he is a musical soul. He also has a bizarre magic side which appealed to me from t.he get go. He also is easy to correspond with and has a great humorous side. Almost of all of his works are under $150.,,, except one that breaks the $50 zone is TABOO. But it's a great item tha takes many ideas and works he has already published and weaves into a powerful presentation... Some say its not for everyone (!!!). But I say nothing is for everyone - but even if you don't use taboo presentation you can change the premise to whatever you want and it's a master level treatise on a commercial edgy show... Again it appeals to me as I like dark stuff and modified it to be the seven deadly sins of mankind and made it more spooky... Is it worth $100? To me yes, but because I 1) appreciate everything bb has put out as workers 2) I do collect (not invest) bb for my library of madness and 3) looking into the dark deeds of the soul is a great fun presentation.... Heck, you could make it into thr SHADOW KNOWS.... So, even though bb has 1 book at $100 most hints are less... And Unreal is a steal - and although I owned 90% of the content and bought for the essays - he had reworked many routines - and if anyone reads closely there is a secret ou can find in the book... I ain't telling tho. So, I doubt this thread has anything to do with Bruce Bernstein either. Message: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Quote:

On 2013-03-18 14:17, Dr Spektor wrote: Wow some cool moderating clean up occurred while I was away living life :) Anyway.... More on topic regarding material that may not always work although I believe it's the performer who can make almost anything work (not make it the outcome you wishes but can turn most things into appearing intended if you get my drift)... I am going to wander into kenton land... Yes, Kenton and some of his students are some really greats... But for whatever reason I wanted to pay special tribute to one first ENRIQUE ENRIQUEZ I first came across his work in the act of imagination - something that struck me as WHOAAAA THIS IS REALLY AMAZING - it was Abilene of waking suggestion and words in a way that it appeared it wasn't hypnosis but was... You'd have to read it to get it and think of it.... Then came his invisible series... And his work of metaphoric readings etc... All of this was less than $50 a piece and has material people have used again without crediting him as being a forerunner for many today.... I've been ale to take many of his principles and use them right away - and it was what really got me into language and meaning use in a unique way... He also is a friendly soul who has been polite and is clearly passionate about the art. He is someone I'd love to meet and just watch him do readings all day Anyway, back to mike inces original post - this is material tha is not sure fire and is more in the hands of the performer to figure out how to use it. However, I believe Enrique gives always enough information, background, and examples to really get a feel of what to do.... Anyway, Kenton knepper Ill save for later.... Enrique to me has a special place beyond pure kentonism- he was a pioneer imagineering master

I whole-heartedly agree. He has some mind blowing works on cold reading. He made it all made sense for me, and I stopped my research, and just understood how it worked and how things are formed and have been formed and why they work. I like a decent amount of Kenton's work. Some of it I find to be useless and overpriced, but everyone has a different slant and style. Some of his works are undoubtedly genius. And then there are the handful of resources by the workers, who do this time and time again. Steps, most of Cassidy's work, and most of Osterlind's stuff, amongst other smaller names such as Bryn Reynolds and various prop creators. Paul Voodini fits into this category in terms of cold reading and other more esoteric aspects -- although a couple of his works I haven't found useful, the vast majority is incredibly so, and Midnight is perhaps my favorite in it's versatility and scope. 1 or 2 of Luke Jermay's works I've found to be incredibly devious, but he's put out some generally overpriced and unworkable material, and done some other sketchy things so I no longer feel great buying from him. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Almost everything else is diminishingly useful and priced oft incorrectly. Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 20, 2013 5:55am)

I could not agree more with these posts. Luke's work has always been inspirational (glad to see he has gone back to being Luke Jermay too!). Kenton is a real innovator, let us not forget. Bernstein obviously! It is good to remind ourselves now and then of the *real* pros, the guys who have genuinely added new material and ideas to the art - to take a deep breath in the clear air outside of the now stale fog of the flim-flam artists. Lets keep celebrating the true innovators and let the shadows disperse. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 20, 2013 6:52pm)

AH ! I got another that might be controversial! I once shelled out $200 for when the Mind and Magic of DAVID BERGLAS came out. I was enchanted and felt after reading that book the entire concepts of going with the flow, multiple plan b-z contingencies, equiv. s****craft, and much more... and it transformed my style. Now, this is not the book $50 range I have been talking about - but I'm edging up into some of my higher purchases... and this one was killer. It also conveyed to me a bit of the person of Berglas himself who seems a gentleman and scholar and funster... I know he has associated with the Psycrets crowd and part of their book has some of his work in it - i.e. collaborative master good fellow in my book. LIBER MENTIS I bought just for the Berglas piece (although I knew I'd get a lot of gems along with it... but that is another post in the future....).... The controversy I recall were people complaining they did not get the ACAAN and the table lift. Well, I don't know about you - but it was in there if you read the PRINCIPLES throughout the book - and the chapter on jazzing so to speak as well as other techs I mentioned above - that it became bleeding obvious how to do them (Not sure if it was the exact method Berglas would have done - but by gosh, I figured out some ways to do it based on the PRINCIPLES)... it also showed me about learning a basic concept/method that appears simple but taking years to master it into a weapon more potent than antimatter bombs! Yes, Berglas had a book over $150 with some people complaining it was missing a promised ACAAN... but IMHO it was there. Read it again if you have it! NB: I did not buy two for an investment. I bought one and it stays in my collection as a collector and student of mystery arts. I believe this is a classic.... Hmmm.. for my next instalment, I may pick a really bizarre spiritualism mediumistic fellow... but I bet you can't guess it! Message:

Posted by: brehaut (Mar 20, 2013 7:26pm)

When I read mind and magic I was surprised. Surprised because people said it didn't tell his ACAAN. It absolutely did. I think they just didn't like his explanation Message:

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 20, 2013 9:27pm)

:) exactly what I believe ... Jan Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 21, 2013 10:19am)

Today's instalment is an odd one... as its written by multiple people to form a omnibus tribute to a person. Perhaps controversial because Teller wrote a large part... perhaps also Kellar of Miracle Factory making it high quality collectors book... but it does contain the original writings of one

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DAVID P. ABBOTT Under the title of HOUSE OF MYSTERY. It currently sells for $100 and I actually bought the special limited edition (!) release in a slipcase etc. as this stuff is what I live for based on my style... Now, what can works from almost 100 years ago do for us today? Well, IMHO - a lot of things. I would say this Abbott fellow was a genius of the highest calibre. Who can not be inspired by the genius of his work and the fact he made his living dwelling his theatre? A man who the greats would all come to visit? A person whose work even back then was being ripped off... by people like Houdini (!).... but if you read a lot of the seance material put out by many people... you will see a ton of his work predated theirs and is similar if not exactly the same techniques... talk about another unsung hero of the field. Many of you mentalists may have passed on this because it looks like (I hate this term) "Bizarre magic" - but its spiritualism techniques explained and many of the roots of mentalism today can be seen from such works. Is he credited? Usually not ever. He usually gets mistaken for Abbott's Magic founder - which he isn't!!!! And who cannot fall in love with ol' Balsamo? Yes, I admit I collect chattering skulls... ok, my bias revealed! I notice some people still like talking tea kettles too... but so much in these 2 volumes for $100... my god. Are they al "Usable" material? I'd say yes... they worked 100 years ago... but like most things, its how much passion and time you want to invest to bring these things to life and maximum impact. Why do I like this book as well? Besides content which is amazing, it also shows Teller can be passionate about the art and he shares some of his own material with the readers as well. In addition, as mentioned above, its a highly classy book to have for we physical HC collectors - but it isn't just for collecting - the material in this book you could take the PRINCIPLES from and do a ton of things with. OK, how many of you saw DAVID P. ABBOTT as the one I was hinting I was going to post next? Hmmm.. actually a better question is How Many even Care? Seems I am getting lonely here on this thread - is it running out of steam? Does anyone want me to continue posting my humble opinions here? Doesn't anyone else want to take time to pay tribute to the greats???? Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Mar 21, 2013 12:07pm)

Quote:

Hmmm.. actually a better question is How Many even Care? Seems I am getting lonely here on this thread - is it running out of steam? Does anyone want me to continue posting my humble opinions here? Doesn't anyone else want to take time to pay tribute to the greats????

I'm enjoying it. I am actually now curious to grab the Abbott book. Message:

Posted by: lekin (Mar 21, 2013 12:46pm)

If you find your way to the Learned Pig Project at lybrary.com you will find Abbott's book Behind the Scenes With the Mediums posted as a public domain book. Well worth the time and energy and defintely someone who tends to be overlooked today.

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Message:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 21, 2013 12:48pm)

I have a second print of the Behind the Scenes book, hardback, printed in 1902 I think... Message:

Posted by: HeatherV (Mar 21, 2013 12:49pm)

All of Abbott's books are awesome. Really love them. Message:

Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 21, 2013 12:50pm)

Behind the scenes with Mediums is AMAZING! It's free on-line, but I found that I needed a physical copy to read. There are reprints available cheap on amazon. Message:

Posted by: HeatherV (Mar 21, 2013 1:06pm)

OK hate to be the last one with a clue, but what's the Learned Pig Project on Lybrary? Message:

Posted by: lekin (Mar 21, 2013 1:50pm)

Here is Chris Wasshuber's intro to the Learned Pig on lybrary.com: The Learned Pig Project was started in September 1999 by Marko from Panama. Marko's idea was essentially to mimic the Project Gutenberg for magicians. Project Gutenberg's purpose is to digitize public domain books. The Learned Pig Project's goal is to digitize public domain magic books. When Marko started he had four books digitized: My Magic Life (Devant), Miracle Mongers (Houdini), The Lives of the Conjurers (Frost) and Behind the Scenes with the Mediums (Abbott). He would later add dozens more. In late 2011 Marko shut down the project due to security issues on his website. To prevent the loss of this great resource I decided to purchase TLPP from Marko and continue to host it here on Lybrary.com. Lybrary.com's mission is very well aligned with the mission of TLPP. My goal is to digitize magic literature and make it conveniently available to interested magicians. Please use this resource responsibly. Even though most of the books included here are in the public domain their conversions to digital form are not. Marko put an enormous amount of effort into this work. I know, because I have myself digitized hundreds of books. I have paid a good amount of money for Marko's work. Please do not copy, mirror or share these ebooks without my permission. The best way to support TLPP is to support Lybrary.com through referrals, links, and purchases. If you have any questions or suggestions I am just an email away. Message:

Posted by: magic4545 (Mar 21, 2013 4:12pm)

I wonder if anyone thinks of my mentalism work as part of the problem or part of the solution. Either way, I prefer to use my material, for myself, over most of what comes down the pipe. Because it's my own inspired work. It comes from a place inside of me that most other people don't get. But, for those who DO get it, it creates a style and a lifelong relationship of like minds and kindred spirits. I wonder if people are thinking that my work is overpriced and underdelivered, but I'm not going to stop providing it just because someone feels that way. I've got too many people telling me that they really like it. Also, nobody paid attention to my work until the price was high enough to be a sacrifice to be made. The high price weeded out the 'trick hoarders' and the merely curious and put the work into the hands of only those who would appreciate it. Unfortunate, but that seems to be the way that things work out. I'm very thankful and appreciative to those who have supported my thinking and work. Jimmy Fingers

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Message:

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 21, 2013 4:33pm)

Jimmy: I bought some of your material and thought that it was well presented and worth more than the asking price. This may have been before you raised your prices though... :) Tony Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 21, 2013 4:52pm)

This is not at snipe at you Mr Fingers, but I always thought the first step in keeping things from the 'merely curious' would be to not flog it on the Café? Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 21, 2013 5:37pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-21 16:52, Christopher Gould wrote: This is not at snipe at you Mr Fingers, but I always thought the first step in keeping things from the 'merely curious' would be to not flog it on the Café?

WE TAKE THIS BREAK FROM OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM I guess it gets back to what is flogging? If someones every post (or 7/10 posts) always refers to their own work and how to get it, I'd feel it was flogging. Or if any people are always saying how great something is over and over without any objective descriptions of WHY its great... that could be flogging too... I especially thinks its flogging when someone doesn't bother to even buy an ad but figures ways to advertise here anyway! Good example of a good egg is Dr Bill again - for his ebooks he always takes out an ad - puts maybe one post up about his work - and then many people chime in with objective reasons why his stuff is great etc and he just thanks them... and then doesn't refer to his work very often again unless highly relevent to a discussion topic. That being said, as above illustrates, I think its OK for creators to talk about their stuff and toot the horn once in a while - its the extremism that makes it feel flogged. (Notice how I got an extra kudos to Dr Bill in there :))) END OF SIDEBOX Message:

Posted by: hypblake (Mar 21, 2013 5:38pm)

I based my career off Jeromes work. I consider him a friend, so you can do what you like with that statement. I did pay for it and I do use it. I've made that money back and then a lot more. If you consider that in the equation I basically stole his work for pennies on the dollar. I've also paid $25 for steaming piles of dog poop. If you take into consideration of what I paid and what I got in return I WAS ROBBED BLIND! It doesn't seem many here are attacking Jerome, but those that are just might not understand. Having said that how cool would it be to see a WWE showdown? I'd go against you Jerome if nobody else has the guts ;) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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p.s. I hold the right to back out of that without looking like a "pansy" Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 21, 2013 6:23pm)

Dr S - I mean that if you go on about how your work is only for 'those who are mighty and wise enough to understand the value of what they have' and that the work is only for the very few enlightened individuals and you so want to keep it form the hands of the ignorant masses - then why would you promote it on an open forum? I am not pointing fingers in any particular direction. But it always seemed an odd paradox to me. Were I to write such a book, no one here would hear of it! Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 21, 2013 7:13pm)

Quote:

On 2013-03-21 18:23, Christopher Gould wrote: Dr S - I mean that if you go on about how your work is only for 'those who are mighty and wise enough to understand the value of what they have' and that the work is only for the very few enlightened individuals and you so want to keep it form the hands of the ignorant masses - then why would you promote it on an open forum? I am not pointing fingers in any particular direction. But it always seemed an odd paradox to me. Were I to write such a book, no one here would hear of it!

hmmm.... good point! Although I am not sure that is flogging - more boasting... and playing on elitism marketing strategies... more akin to what Mike was talking about with the Emperor's Clothes analogy where there will be pressure if you buy it to say its for the elite and illuminated even if it isn't.... i.e. not flogging but creating an illusion of the material being greater than it is (or really nothing at all) - until someone dares yell "Doggie Poopies!" I will say I have had my share of dog poops of Why not going on and putting some other, even all of his previous works in EBOOK form ??? or in another whole book ? Just to make $$ ? For sure the thunder mutters... These were the factual things I relate to this topic. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 29, 2013 9:03am)

Hi ameryc, This is not a unique issue unfortunately but I believe the issues you raise are slightly off topic - the second part of the post... So here you are! http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=505901&forum=15#0 Lets see what happens. The first part of the post seems to me on topic which is if you spend a lot of dough is the material workable!!! There is another topic hidden all these posts anyway..... The fact that some of the material that works is not really the material of the seller.... It's been taken and used without credit.... But you can tell sometimes by a body of work... Just like reading essays etc for plagerism,,. Where suddenly some material seems totally different in voice, character and use,,, and the stuff that doesn't work well is in another voice /style completely... If you mark papers or review submissions for journals you might understand what I am babbling about. Between marketing promises, material that works, and material that may not even be the persons, and other wonderful things... What a fun interesting field this is!!!!! :band: Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 29, 2013 11:56am)

Amazing - the thread I started got wiped out of existence. really moderators... why???? Move it if you must... but why erase it???? Oh well. Guess this thread might get wiped too. Message:

Posted by: eric6 (Mar 29, 2013 2:14pm)

Aymeric, I do agree nearly on every thing you said in your post. I don't know if the begining of this thread was aimed at Jerome or not but when I began reading it I could't help but think it was. Even if it was not the case. I think that what Jerome wrote was really over reacting and at the same time I understand that he feeled targeted. It just mean that you never know how people will interpret of what you say or write... It's surely also the case of what I wrote above ;)) A great week-end to every one with peace

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Quote:

On 2013-03-29 05:46, Aymeric de Valon wrote: Just to add : I've bought the vast majority of Finley's works, spending $$$$$. I don't know him, and haven't seen him as a performer. Nevertheless, it's for me, no question asked, the best material out there. I use it in each and every show I do. In fact, 2/3 of my show comes from ideas from Finley that I've adapted to suit my style. For me and the way I've chosen to follow, it's as simple as that : it works ! And all the people who have seen my shows can attests that it rocks very hard... The second thing is that I haven't read a lot of things nearer than Finley's writings in quality. The last thing is that for a professional performer, selling our shows thousands (mine is about 2200$), it's very easy to have X times the return in investment. Think of all the things you've bought over the year... How many do you really use and get money from it ? How many books, DVD, tricks have you bought ? I'm very happy for my money. I don't buy a lot of things else than Finley's and Riggs' ones. In fact, if you don't perform, it's a lot of money for sure... but you perhaps don't have to buy it, even if M. Finley is a perfect seller. And if you're a mentalist doing book test, chair test and prediction, for sure it will be difficult to suit your style... and I wouldn't recommand it. These are 2 different ways of mentalism, both praiseworthy, and both included under the same word MENTALIST. There should be 2 words. Last point, having discussed by email some times with him, he has always answered in details and pre

BUT here are some points I don't like : 1) Buying "exclusive" things that are published another time in another of his writing (there are A LOT of repetitive works) 2) Having ebooks and not books as promised (I had that one time in the past). More generally, selling ebooks and not books is a pity, specially for such incredible work. 3) Having him tell in each experience that he has done it since 99 years and many thousands of times :) In all of his 20+ writings, he must perform day and night since 200 years :) I personnaly haven't more than 10 stage effects, almost always the same since X years. 4) Seeing his reaction in this thread. Which for me is more a teenager reaction (who has the biggest ?) in front of argued posts. Especially when he could have a lot of things to answer in a serious discussion. I've been amazed of such posts and couldn't think it was the same author and http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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performer that advocate peace, empathy, serious discussion, advice and reflexion. 5) Last thing, which drove me to the previous post : seeing that some EXCLUSIVE work was now sold in EBOOK form. GUERILLA is one of his best writings for me, as long as PSM. One of the major selling point IS the exclusivity. Seeing that it's now in EBOOK form and not limited is disrespectful for his previous buyers and followers. ==> Why not going on and putting some other, even all of his previous works in EBOOK form ??? or in another whole book ? Just to make $$ ? For sure the thunder mutters... These were the factual things I relate to this topic.

Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 29, 2013 5:55pm)

Eric6,I agree people will read,as how they read it! But,I do not think Mikes OP,was targeted at Jerome! I never read it that way,anyway! And,you do not see Jerome's stuff listed over in 'Let's Make a Magic Deal'! All,need to read the OP again! Peace Message:

Posted by: eric6 (Mar 29, 2013 7:22pm)

OH I was a bit unprecise about the biginning of the thread. It was not specificly about Mikes post at first but the feeling (not a fact...) I got about the thread in the first few exchanges. But indeed I'm not a mindreader so I can't speak for those who wrote. It show that sometimes with different contexts communication could be a difficult art to master whatever we try to be understood. Ask my ex wife... ;) Message:

Posted by: tboehnlein (Mar 30, 2013 12:57pm)

Ay Meric, let me ask you have purchased or reviewed material by Robert Nelson, Anneman,Anderson & Corinda here lies gold. Not to mention the likes of Bob Cassidy. Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 1, 2013 12:38pm)

I love April fool's day ! :) http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finley-all-available/ Can I offer all the FINLEY's ebooks I've bought $$$$ and own for this day for free if you PM me and just ask ? :) For sure I have to check again the words EXCLUSIVE and SECRET in the dictionnary...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Jerome Finley All Available Posted on March 17, 2013 by DanS These are the currently available manuscripts from Jerome Finley. They are all instant downloads. We assume you know what you are buying! Forbidden Mentalism/Farewell Book Combo $395 Full Contact Mind Reading $399 Guerilla Q&A $399 The Professional’s Choice I $300 The Professional’s Choice II $300 The Professional’s Choice III $300 The Professional’s Choice I, II, & III $666 Psychic Directions $149 Psycho-Spiritual Mentalism $300 Random Acts of Kindness $60 S.O.S. $199 T & R $300 The Taboo Treatise $1,000 Thought Channel $120 Thought Channel 2 $60 Thought Dial $300 Thought Veil $495

- eric6 : thanks ! - tboehnlein, for sure, I'm open minded, but like everybody I have favorite :P - Godzilla : as for me, as soon as I've read the first post, Jerome was the one and only one in my mind... and I don't think I'm a newbie to mentalism... only to english language ! And as explained, I do not necessarly agree since his material rocks the house... I've never read and used something as powerfull as his writings except for Anderson's DM ; but I do NOT like his manners to make money on the back of dead troutes like me... Message: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Hi Ameryc, I tried to start a thread for you - but it keeps getting erased! Watch out... ever read "VANISHING ACT" By Matheson? Thank goodness I channel Rod Serling... although he too got wiped out at the end of season 1 of TZ.... hmmmm As for selling books for free... that would be unethical! But a Dollar can work! Not sure on the ethics of reselling ebooks - but hey, I'm told constantly what I thought was ethical and moral is totally topsy turvy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85cL1HisrNc Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 1, 2013 1:44pm)

Haha Bruce :) Thanks for the (erased) thread best Message:

Posted by: bdekolta (Apr 1, 2013 2:18pm)

Quote: Can I offer all the FINLEY's ebooks I've bought $$$$ and own for this day for free if you PM me and just ask ?

Well you have to live with your own conscience - but on a larger scale we all have to decide whether to be part of the problem or part of the solution. While the topic here is primarily price/value we have strayed in to exclusivity. I am personal friends with some of the most creative among us. One in particular has stopped producing anything because of being ripped off by dealers. How much worse is it when you are ripped off by teams of people with no respect for I.P. because they have an Internet connection? The friend I was referring to is John Cornelius. Pen Thru Dollar, Thought Transmitter, etc. All heavily ripped off and drove John, one of the absolute most creative among us, underground. He is still there if you know where to find him. I still use an impression device he sold me in the early 1980's. Everyone I show it to finds it amazing, and it is amazing. But you can't buy it because of the rip offs. To be clear I own DeeperSecrets.com and everything being sold is will full permission of the authors including Jerome. If you are on his mailing list you received an announcement yesterday about an upcoming teleconference. If you want to know about the call you have to be on the list. That said I'm sure some "helpful" person will post the details here. But you want access to the man - I'm trying to provide some. I know it is fun to sit and toss stones around on the Internet but there are always two sides to every story. Although to find that out you have to be open to listening. Docc Hilford and I have spent long hours discussing the in's and out's of this topic. There are no easy answers. But toward that end I am currently working on some ideas to help the original purchasers feel a bit http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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better about all this. More information later. If you want to be kept in the loop get on Jerome's mailing list and the DeeperSecrets.com list. I'm not Penguin you won't be getting a hyped up message each day for a rehashed card trick. Back to this thread you can find out exactly who Mike was referring to by reading his followup posts on this very thread. And that isn't me dissing on Mike. He and I have actually sat down for lunch and discussed these things. As for not being able to see performances - well I am biased there too. I have things I show magicians and things I try to keep as far away from them as possible. Why? They steal it. When I walk in the magic shop and see my presentations being used for the demo's my heart just sinks. (Not referring to you Mike!) Not on Jerome's mailing list? It is here: http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf Buy his stuff here: http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finley-all-available/ And as always feel free to contact me directly although email is best. ~ DanS aka Dan Strange Message:

Posted by: parmenion (Apr 1, 2013 3:57pm)

I'm with Aymeric on this one! I think I bought almost all his book. I like Jerome's material and I think it's really amazing BUT... I feel cheated as it was a so called limited release, so expensive... I even don't talk about "Taboo" where I had to sign a DNA and the pdf was protected so it was impossible to print it and now no DNA anymore and I'm sure you can print it... I don't like to talk about that on a public forum, it's useless, but I think on this one it concern everyone purchase so called limited book priced high. Jerome, I'm so upset, believe me! I'm not joking on this one. Anyway Jeromes not the only one do to that, unfortunately. Message:

Posted by: eric6 (Apr 1, 2013 4:02pm)

I do feel sad about this also but I wait to ear the other side of this Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 1, 2013 4:58pm)

Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof soon.... How do you do 9 pages easy? Prediction - the driver in the van is the metaphor of the thread.... He goes off the rails and side chase occurs... Friends abandon each other... Then squish poof http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=FftEeQmuDWM Message:

Posted by: duanebarry (Apr 1, 2013 5:03pm)

Quote:

Dr Spektor wrote: Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof soon.... How do you do 9 pages easy?

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Scroll up to the top of the page and find the line with the topic subject. Look all the way to the right, and see the Printer icon. Click it and it'll show the whole thread all on one giant page. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 1, 2013 5:05pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 17:03, duanebarry wrote: Quote:

Dr Spektor wrote: Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof soon.... How do you do 9 pages easy?

Scroll up to the top of the page and find the line with the topic subject. Look all the way to the right, and see the Printer icon. Click it and it'll show the whole thread all on one giant page.

Thanks db!!! Message:

Posted by: Dr. Van Van Mojo (Apr 1, 2013 6:27pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 14:18, bdekolta wrote: To be clear I own DeeperSecrets.com and everything being sold is will full permission of the authors including Jerome. I know it is fun to sit and toss stones around on the Internet but there are always two sides to every story. Although to find that out you have to be open to listening. Docc Hilford and I have spent long hours discussing the in's and out's of this topic. There are no easy answers. But toward that end I am currently working on some ideas to help the original purchasers feel a bit better about all this. More information later. If you want to be kept in the loop get on Jerome's mailing list and the DeeperSecrets.com list. I'm not Penguin you won't be getting a hyped up message each day for a rehashed card trick. ~ DanS aka Dan Strange

How nice that Jerome gave full permission to sell more of his limited manuscripts.

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It's not fun to throw stones. People are getting sick and tired of being lied to. Alexander Nelson, Docc Hilford (TRESLIBRE anyone? "limited, available for a brief time" but still being sold over 2 years later), and now Jerome. I'm sure there's more. Do people not realize there are laws against false advertising? Or do they just not care and think because this is such a small, obscure industry that it will never be noticed or acted upon? I would think the original purchasers don't just want to feel "a bit" better about all this. It better be a FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be much more appreciated. Nice knock on Penguin, they may send a lot of emails but at least they can be trusted to do the right thing. The Federal Trade Commission Act exists to prohibit unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce. Someday someone is liable to pursue a lawsuit if they get fed up enough. Message:

Posted by: dmoses (Apr 1, 2013 6:35pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 15:57, parmenion wrote: I'm with Aymeric on this one! I think I bought almost all his book. I like Jerome's material and I think it's really amazing BUT... I feel cheated as it was a so called limited release, so expensive... I even don't talk about "Taboo" where I had to sign a DNA and the pdf was protected so it was impossible to print it and now no DNA anymore and I'm sure you can print it... I don't like to talk about that on a public forum, it's useless, but I think on this one it concern everyone purchase so called limited book priced high. Jerome, I'm so upset, believe me! I'm not joking on this one. Anyway Jeromes not the only one do to that, unfortunately.

Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Apr 1, 2013 6:53pm)

This Limited Stuff,is to Justify the Higher prices on release! It,is all a sales pitch! Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the customer after purchase! Again,a new thread needs to be started,as has been stated! Maybe,the Mods would be so kind to let the new thread,remain for a bit? Message:

Posted by: bdekolta (Apr 1, 2013 7:25pm)

To be clear I would advise anyone against using Limited Edition in this day and age. And limited is usually not to justify higher prices. You can believe that or not but it is the case. Godzilla said: Quote: Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the customer after purchase!

I am actually offended by this. Anyone who has been "uncared for after purchase" by myself, or Docc please let me know. I think our track record there speaks for itself. I have only worked with Jerome a http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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short time so no track record there except for my own experience purchasing from him. Never had a problem. Richard Webster - more than cordial in all our dealings. Dr. Van Van Mojo Quote: I would think the original purchasers don't just want to feel "a bit" better about all this. It better be a FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be much more appreciated.

I believe honesty is what I was bringing and offering. If you are expecting "FANTASTIC" you are likely to be disappointed. I intend to do what we can do. If you want to hear what Jerome has to say get on the list and be on the call. Beyond that I open to suggestions - privately and preferably by email - and a reasonable person to correspond with. And let us cut the hyperbole down to size and quit tossing threats around as that gets us nowhere. Recent customer service honesty example - when Docc released the updated Richey Technique we ran into *many* technical issues getting it ready to deliver. I wrote and honestly explained what was going and still had people writing me accusing me of using hype to get early sales. It wasn't. So even honesty is not always appreciated. I am not here to get in a ****ing match although it seems that is what some are after. Hope something there is useful to someone. ~ Dan Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Apr 1, 2013 7:44pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 19:25, bdekolta wrote: To be clear I would advise anyone against using Limited Edition in this day and age. And limited is usually not to justify higher prices. You can believe that or not but it is the case. Godzilla said: Quote: Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the customer after purchase!

I am actually offended by this. Anyone who has been "uncared for after purchase" by myself, or Docc please let me know. I think our track record there speaks for itself.

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First part I agree 100%! I am offended ,as this has happened several times in the past! More persons are starting to stand up on this issue,and in the past,if someone would stand up and make a genuine concern stated,they would get bullied on! Tis a shame,that many of those post have vanished!!! :( My post was not pointed at you,Dan! But,there is two sides to every coin! I guess we all have a right to be offended! Peace ~G Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 1, 2013 7:47pm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=568inXx6z0w Don't worry mr kaiju we are still with you :) Plus you must watch this!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Apr 1, 2013 8:13pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 19:47, Dr Spektor wrote:

Plus you must watch this!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

Made me :)! Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 1, 2013 8:26pm)

I am astounded people talk about the value of 'limited editions' when dealing with virtual commodities. When I think limited edition I think: 1) books that are well produced and hand-numbered physical objects, with no additional copies made (though further editions are possible, generally for the mass market). 2) In the visual arts, prints that are hand-numbered, signed, and the original plates struck, making more copies physically impossible. A limited edition is usually an investment with genuine http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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secondary market value, but with ebooks, resale is ethically impossible. I think digital vendors should stay true to the spirit of the term, especially with no secondary market for purchasers to recoup their costs if they choose. Message:

Posted by: Dr. Eamon (Apr 1, 2013 9:28pm)

What a thread. I think the starter of this topic is correct in saying some books are to expensive and some are too cheap. BUT A: I do prefer to have an exclusive book/effect B: I prefer to have strong material that really works for me Unfortunately sometimes this will cost a lot, sometimes it doesn't... John Message:

Posted by: Mike Ince (Apr 1, 2013 9:31pm)

I agree it's probably time for another thread. "Limited" is a hard promise to make. If the purpose is to keep the information exclusive, forget it. As Ben Franklin wrote, "three may keep a secret if two of them are dead." In this digital age, a physical manuscript may be sold as a limited edition but it will almost certainly be scanned and shared. When you're a creator/publisher and you release a limited work you'll likely look on with your hands tied as the work is shared with hundreds of people who did not pay for it. Creators who don't make any promises of "limited editions" will save themselves trouble and avoid the temptation to break their promise. Buyers who don't believe any such promises will save themselves frustration. Message:

Posted by: Dr. Eamon (Apr 1, 2013 10:13pm)

I would like to ad that I do NOT like it when I have paid a high price for a book, to see that it is something that came from old (cheap) books and are only rewritten to the modern time. People are also guilty themselves because most of them will always want to have the latest books. If you read the old books, you will find just as much, but you have to use your own brain, to bring these ideas to the modern time and create your own effect’s. These are the demonstrations that are exclusive, strong and cheap. In the past I have read many old books (like Ericksonian, NLP, mentalism) and I did read a lot of the used techniques in the more and less expensive books later. It’s a little frustrating, but on the other hand many that didn’t read these old books, just don’t know, they will think it’s new and they will praise the author of the new book… BTW If you promise a book to be a “Limited” release, you have to keep that promise! It may be difficult or even cost you money at the end. But people will pay more for a limited release. The moment the author or publisher decides to print more, all people that bought the book and trusted and invested in this book, should be given the chance to return the book or otherwise they are ripped off! PS I’m not pointing a finger to anyone particular, but it has happened and it will happen again. John

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Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 2, 2013 4:41am)

At first, due to all these $399 and $199 prices and the amateurish looking of this web page, I thought it was a fake, a funny april joke made by my good friend Aymeric. Then I clicked on a PayPal button, thinking it would point to another funny page. When I realized that I was arrived on the real PayPal website... I started to laugh. You can't imagine how much I laughed, but I'm sure it was more than a $999 laugh ! ----Self-edited message. Forum is not a good place to debate. Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 2, 2013 12:38pm)

I am speaking in the abstract: I don't have any over-priced ebooks (I can think of a million other things I would buy for that amount of money). But if I had, and was promised exclusivity (and that promise was broken), I would have no ethical compunctions about re-selling mine. Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 2, 2013 2:54pm)

Of course I agree with all the above posts... Feeling ripped of is a soft euphemism... it sounds for me even more crazy since the material rocks ! lure of gain is an modern addiction. It affects even the "so called" most knowledgeable individuals

Trailer from SOS : =========== "I’m offering a complete SATISFACTION GUARANTEE for ‘SOS’; if for any reason you become unhappy with this product or material your investment will be held the same as cash for ANY of my current or future releases (excluding sold out items)." => I've becomed unhappy, and have explained the valid reasons. ALL buyers will have the same feeling and will become unhappy. Can I add the amount of all the ebooks since SOS that are now unlimited, even if they were sold as exclusive ? Perhaps will I buy a wandering soul... :) Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 2, 2013 3:22pm)

Other tangible facts : ========== M. Finley is one of the rare "exclusive" seller who doesn't number his publications. Hilford, Mc Leod etc all put a number in each book or ebook when they sell exclusive material. You know you've bought something and the number is respected. ==> I DON'T say it's not the case here. But.... M. Finley quite always sell his material 30 or 50 copies. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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We can calculate that's else he sold less than the number, else the exact number, else more. (Else we can calculate the total amount if we have the time... without taxes ) In quite every thread, his books were sold out. So he sold certainly the exact number. Nothing on earth except his own soul (and stocked bank account) would be able to prove something else. BUT without numbering items, it IS justifiable to think that the doubt exists. One way to verify it would be to contact every posts on the Café... and sometimes there were 20 pages ! Of course all buyer would not inevitably posts on the Café...

As I'm very generous, I would add another point :) Often his books were SOLD OUT Interested persons that come after the passage of the train posted on the café, saying they were disappointing. And suddenly, there was a Finley's post telling something like "write me a MP" or "I have just one left copy you're lucky". I just take the time to verify it in different old threads... And to even prove it further, it's easy... I've been late for THOUGHT DIAL It was written SOLD OUT weeks ago, I haven't seen it I drop M. Finley a MP, "just in case"(acting like a Dead trout easy to deceive...) And of course, in his own words : [i]There are no plans to reprint my routine in any form or variation, I DO still have one copy of THOUGHT DIAL I can part with if you're interested. {/i] Luckily, for this last copy, it wasn't 300 $ but 350 $, just for me :) As I've explained different times, I was loving his material, so no problem for me. AND I WAS VERY HAPPY OF MY PURCHASE, even if I had the feeling of "more than 30..." but no matter.

Except for mentalism, I remember one time eating in a restaurant where I had problems. Leaving the restaurant, I gave my business card tolding the owner he would have news soon I've taken the time needed to write negative and real reviews in all forums, website etc for this restaurant. 1 week later I receive a phone call for a free dinner Of course I never went. 1 dissatisfied person speaks about it to 10 Good luck for selling more products M. Finley with such an offer You can be sure that all your past customers will remember about all these facts... and write about it in the Café and else, and not all of them will be banned :)

That were just tangible food for your thoughts... :) Message:

Posted by: Dr. Eamon (Apr 2, 2013 4:14pm)

WOW - Limited editions that are NOT numbered (at least very strange indeed)

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- SOLD OUT limited editions that are still sold using the “Your lucky I have one left” - Trick (I really hope this is not thru) - And asking $50.00 extra... (for danger of getting caught at it?) I have nothing to prove any of this is thru, but I will do my research as always. And keep copies of the threads on my computer (like a copy from this thread, that I really hope will not disappear!!!) John Message:

Posted by: Dr. Eamon (Apr 2, 2013 4:18pm)

TIP! Do you want a copy keep of a thread on your PC? Just click on the printer icon at the top right of a thread, and you can copy and paste all pages of a thread in one handling. Or just print it! Fast and easy ;) John Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 2, 2013 5:08pm)

Good point cuz this thread is going to vanish soon,......!!!! Hollis and Melipone are going to detonate the Human Decoy Explosive any second....!!! Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Apr 2, 2013 5:16pm)

Especially if I say......... Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Apr 2, 2013 5:17pm)

Shall I.... Shall I? Message:

Posted by: Christopher Gould (Apr 2, 2013 5:18pm)

Nah.....I'm outta here...... Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 2, 2013 6:23pm)

I'm affraid that it is Jerome himself who open the Pandora box at the beginning of this thread, badly reacting to my "cute" joke : monkey=1 / tiger=0. Be fair-play, I know you read us JF ;) Be careful, we should avoid the bashing strategy, it produces martyrs and discredit legitimate initial denonciations. Act 2 : the redemption ?.. "L'enfant prodige fait son mea-culpa devant ses pairs en colère, répare ses erreurs et s'engage dans la voie rédemptrice du don de son savoir au bénéfice de l'art". Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Apr 2, 2013 7:16pm)

What is there to be afraid of? In the words of Jim Rose, "You guys are weaker than a packet of Kool-Aid in the ocean!" http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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;) I actually love this thread tons and hope it stays around for as long as possible (my sales are going through the roof because of it). Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense here? What's that? None? :) :) :) From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23 extra sales because of you...not quite sure but Dan will send me another full report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight. Special thanks to Aymeric for linking DeeperSecrets.com multiple times, we appreciate your gracious compliments and free advertising lots. Of course you can find my page here for those who missed it last time: http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finleyall-available/ And since Dr. Spektor seems to enjoy funny YouTube videos so much, here's my personal anthem for the day and you can all take it to heart. http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=KbW9JqM7vho&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKbW9JqM7vho&has_verified=1 EVIL BOY 4 LIFE!!! :) Good fun, JF. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 2, 2013 9:13pm)

http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/features/how-anger-hurts-your-heart Money can't buy back health once lost Anyway, where was I....oh yes! My next installment; GEORGE B. ANDERSON This fellow developed numerous routine and concepts that have been taken up by others and expanded, improved... Or just ripped off (you can tell the good creators by the number of times they get ripped off).... My favourite of his is DYNAMITE MENTALISM..... A true gem that really set s new way of doing q&a in print.... But he has so many wonderful things going back to magic digest and so much. This thread could not be about him I hope. His stuff was very inexpensive.... But to do dynamite mentalism requires the goods to do it right... I don't think it would work for everyone as it require chutzpah and jazz. But it works for me. It also was written to the point, clear instructions, concepts and some cool add ons and variations. More to come if this thread doesn't go poof! Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Apr 2, 2013 9:24pm)

Well then it looks like YOU'RE out of a job, "Dr." :) Besides, who's angry? http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Not me, I support this thread 100% Message:

Posted by: tboehnlein (Apr 2, 2013 9:43pm)

That video shows about as little class as you are demonstrating right now, for a shaman you seem to be expressing a lot of anger Message:

Posted by: Jerome Finley (Apr 2, 2013 9:48pm)

Glad you liked it (they're very creative and one of my favorite talents out of South Africa). :) NEXT!

P.S. I thought for being a "mizzarist" or whatever he calls himself, the kind Dr. Bruce Ballon would be fast to appreciate it. Message:

Posted by: tboehnlein (Apr 2, 2013 9:53pm)

MISSED IT WHO ARE THEY? So we can determine your judgement of talent by you appreciating ths talent Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 2, 2013 10:18pm)

Gee jerome, for someone not angry you certainly post very angrily. Not sure why I'd be out of a job. Things around here indicate unfortunately the contrary. Anyway, I don't claim anything. I never claimed to be. In fact, I stopped calling myself a mizzarist and a bunch of other things long ago. I'm just a shmoe who cares about the art. In fact, you know I not only don't claim things, I disclaim most things especially any powers etc. Well peace to you. Now, can we get back go the thread or do you need to continue whatever it is you think you need to do? Heck, whatever - you take over from here. Have fun!!!! Message:

Posted by: Godzilla (Apr 2, 2013 10:19pm)

[quote] On 2013-04-02 19:16, Jerome Finley wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=KbW9JqM7vho&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKbW9JqM7vho&has_verified=1

Jerome,I like videos,and it made me laugh! But Dude,how about the next video having a little less Guy Junk,and a little more Girly Bits ! :) ~G

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Message:

Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 2, 2013 10:21pm)

Who is the weird looking bloke? I've never heard of him. Does he sell expensive e-books, or what? I've heard of Derren Brown and Bob Cassidy, Max Maven too, and David Berglas. Who is this person? What is all this talk about shamans? Who on earth would start to make those sort of claims? Outraged, from Tunbridge Wells. Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 2, 2013 10:34pm)

Maybe this thread should back to recognizing the good guys, rather than confrontation New Installment of Great Contributors: Dr. Spektor: This lover of our art has, at his expense, created websites and hosted open contests where both physical objects and $1000 secrets have been GIVEN away to people interested in collaboration and sharing. I applaud the ethos of his Carcosa contests. Next up for great people and thinkers we have met here... (add here) Message:

Posted by: Dr. Van Van Mojo (Apr 3, 2013 1:51am)

Quote:

On 2013-04-01 19:25, bdekolta wrote: Dr. Van Van Mojo Quote: I would think the original purchasers don't just want to feel "a bit" better about all this. It better be a FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be much more appreciated.

I believe honesty is what I was bringing and offering. If you are expecting "FANTASTIC" you are likely to be disappointed. I intend to do what we can do. If you want to hear what Jerome has to say get on the list and be on the call. Beyond that I open to suggestions - privately and preferably by email and a reasonable person to correspond with. And let us cut the hyperbole down to size and quit tossing threats around as that gets us nowhere. Recent customer service honesty example - when Docc released the updated Richey Technique we ran into *many* technical issues getting it ready to deliver. I wrote and honestly explained what was going and still had people writing me accusing me of using hype to get early sales. It wasn't. So even honesty is not always appreciated. I am not here to get in a ****ing match although it seems that is what http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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some are after. Hope something there is useful to someone. ~ Dan

I fail to see any hyperbole or threats in my post you took the excerpt from. BTW it wasn't necessarily directed at you, just trying to make a point. Maybe someone involved with the falsely advertised items will reply. I'm not the only one interested in what they have to say about the items that were not sold as they were advertised. Message:

Posted by: seadog93 (Apr 3, 2013 2:58am)

I might have something thoughtful and interesting to add to this conversation, ...but I have no idea what it might be because I'm still thinking about that really !@#$%^& weird music video Jerome posted. I'm not sure if I think they are completely ridiculous, or if they're my new favorite band! :) EDIT: LOL! Any fellow Bujinkan members, or ninja enthusiasts, will definitely want to check this out: South African ninja rap! Awwesoome. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cegdR0GiJl4&NR=1&feature=endscreen Message:

Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 3, 2013 3:35am)

Quote: Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense here? What's that? None? :) :) :) From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23 extra sales because of you...not quite sure but Dan will send me another full report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight.

Jerome... you confirm my analysis about your relation with money, thanks to your subconscious ;) You are true, I made no money with my posts here. Hopefully. That's why I said Monkey=1 / Tiger=0 , because I evaluate my success on an intellectual level, not a financial level. As I already said in my first messages : I take risks opening my mouth. Even the risk to be wrong and disapproved by the entire group (hopefully I receive kind PM, an impossible thing to prove ethically unfortunately). I take the risk to be human, to resolve my cognitive dissonance by exposing what upset me. And it is often incompatible with business. No problem, I made my choice years ago when fighting against the Grim Reaper under a sterile tent. That's why I feel no anger against you but I feel free to express my opinions, trying to be fair and a little bit amusing because that's only human comedy. Remember, I wrote earlier : "Talk about me badly or nicely but talk about me". We talk about you Jerome Finley. Then you earn more money, that's your malediction. But you will loose too, not by the same. It's a good thing. Read again Icarus and Midas myths.

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I do not hate money but here is what I insert in my own publications about piracy and sharing knowledge(owners will confirm it they want) : "Should I say something to you about piracy ? I mean, if you already decided to freely share this e-book on the web because it’s your philosophy… nothing I could say would help me to convince you not to do that, even if I tell you that I really need money to survive in this hard world, don’t you think so ? And if you are not concerned by piracy, nothing I could say to you would help me to convince those who are concerned…etc…etc. SO… Do what you think is the best thing to do. Whatever it is. I just make a wish if you allow me to : “If you really want to share this e-book, offer it for free to a true lover of our art or a penniless person. Knowledge should never be a question of money. That’s my philosophy”. Sometimes, I even received money on my PayPal account from performers who use my personal ideas professionally with success. I never ask for that but they do it and I’m sure they feel good and proud for having doing that, never asking for my gratitude. Human mind can really be wonderful." ---------I do not pretend it's a better relation to money but it's the one I've chosen. Peace, Fred Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 3, 2013 3:36am)

Quote:

Besides, who's angry?

You should check this thread, there are comments like a teenager who blow a gasket in front of structured criticisms... Quote:

Bring them to me and I'll !@#$%^& show you and your little "dragon cards" what's up...GUARANTEED. If you want to get "huffy", by all means, let's go. Me + YOU + "lay audience" = FORGET YOUR CAREER AND YOUR HOBBY. Pansy !@#$%. Go back to bed. Put up, or S.T.F.U!

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And yeah...the Café ****ing sucks these days, but we all already knew that. I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you are, where you're from or what you do. If you can't, then keep your stupid ****ing comments to yourself. BTW, I don't give a **** what you like or dislike

And I won't explain about the nice video...

Quote:

Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense here? What's that? None? From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23 extra sales because of you...not quite sure but Dan will send me another full report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight.

As I explained,"lure of gain is an modern addiction. It affects even the "so called" most knowledgeable individuals " Quote:

I have 50,000.00 USD I can lose, and I would relish in the opportunity. I have more. Much more.

and a nice precision, having seen the sensible character of the message : Quote: I can show and prove funds immediately.

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Yes, you are the TIGER, you are the MASTER, you are the WEALTHIEST, you have the BIGGEST You say you have the best material out there ever published in the world (extract from your books). For sure legends like Hanussen, Kuda Bux, Anna Eva Fay or John Edward should ask themself questions ? (or perhaps do modesty escapes you with your 30 + years old ?) BUT You don't care a little about your customer, just about what they can bring back to you Quote:

I'm sick and tired of people talking **** on these boards and forums. I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you are, where you're from or what you do.

The ONLY reason you take the time to read our stupid posts is that you know you've made your business that way... And you want to go selling your exclusive ebooks and DVD to come to fishes as we were Nevertheless, I'm happy you take your precious time to read our stupid posts :)

Quote:

From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23 extra sales because of you...not quite sure but Dan will send me another full report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight.

Do you think we rise to the bait ? Not a single reader would trust you on this one... You know perhaps more than a lot how it is difficult to sell You explained in YOUR books how it's hard to live doing what you love You asked for money with your SOS ebook because you say yourself you've lost a lot. I'm sorry but I can't be with you on all these comments To conclude, I just note that you haven't answered ANY of the tangible criticisms made about your abnormalities re-selling exclusive items, non numbering limited editions and controlling

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it, etc. Message:

Posted by: JohnWells (Apr 3, 2013 5:38am)

Quote:

On 2013-04-02 21:24, Jerome Finley wrote: Well then it looks like YOU'RE out of a job, "Dr."

I shouldn't think so, the whole highly successful psychologist with a PhD (no "Dr.", just Dr.)thing does pretty well for him. I'm sure this will earn me one of your little "let's grab the ruler and settle this" tantrums, and that's fine. You enjoy that. When you can grow your own beard, I'll make an effort to feign interest in whatever disparities you and your tape measure deem important. Bottom line, the message you're sending is that your word cannot be trusted becaus you can be bought. I'm sure your stuff really is "the best out there" (I can't say since I don't have any of it), but at the end of the day you're an entertainer (so I'm told), perhaps a good one (I've certainly never seen you workyour performance videos have a knack of disappearing), but of no lasting significance in the real world, and what is, at best, a breach of good faith does no service to your reputation in any sphere that actually matters. I have no more to say, though I'm sure you'll have some delightful chest thumping for me later if suckling fan boys at the bosom of your creativity leaves you any time for nobodies such as me. Message:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 3, 2013 6:43am)

Jerome got your pm. You serious? Message:

Posted by: Stephen Young (Apr 3, 2013 7:06am)

Trying to PM you Dr. Your letter box is full to bursting. Message:

Posted by: MatCult (Apr 3, 2013 7:34am)

Quote:

On 2013-04-03 07:06, Stephen Young wrote: Your letter box is full to bursting.

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Fnar fnar! Yurk yurk! Message:

Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Apr 3, 2013 11:04am)

Hmmm. Who knew? Apparently the advantage of an emporer with no clothes is that you get to see the ******* part of him real good. Can I say that? I sincerely cannot think of any other author, in the history of the Café, responding with such a attitude towards their peers and their customers as Finley has done in this thread. A mutual dislike from his customers has been earned. What an insult. I want to see a video to see if this guy actually CAN perform. From his responses, I can only doubt it. I've only read the prerelease of his 'restatement' of Sydney Omarr's Thought Dial...and that did not offer hints of any performing expertise. Question...has ANY Café member seen him in action performing? Anyone, anywhere, anytime? In person, video, kinescope, Iphone, anything? Message:

Posted by: duanebarry (Apr 3, 2013 11:44am)

I believe he's been booked to appear at the 2013 Mindvention. Get the first aid kits ready... Maybe the organizers will move the event to a boxing arena. Message:

Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Apr 3, 2013 12:17pm)

Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few complaints about his published works (if any), but that personal attitude is incredibly grating. Only one other ego close to it..and his responses have been more revelatory than informative. Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 3, 2013 1:14pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-03 12:17, Tom Jorgenson wrote: Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few complaints about his published works (if any)....

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If I bought something digital & ephemeral for hundreds of dollars, and didn't like it it, I would be embarrassed to publicly say so. That being said, I have never spent that much on any ebook, so I cannot attest to the contents... Message:

Posted by: brehaut (Apr 3, 2013 1:34pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-03 13:14, Lucien Astor wrote: Quote:

On 2013-04-03 12:17, Tom Jorgenson wrote: Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few complaints about his published works (if any)....

If I bought something digital & ephemeral for hundreds of dollars, and didn't like it it, I would be embarrassed to publicly say so. That being said, I have never spent that much on any ebook, so I cannot attest to the contents...

I think that is a bit unfair. Not sure you can make the leap that since there are no negative comments about Jerome's work its because the buyers' are embarrased to say so given the price of his work. Message:

Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 3, 2013 1:42pm)

Quote:

I think that is a bit unfair. Not sure you can make the leap that since there are no negative comments about Jerome's work its because the buyers' are embarrased to say so given the price of his work.

Conceded. Message:

Posted by: bdekolta (Apr 3, 2013 1:49pm)

I approached Jerome based solely on the material in the books I have purchased. Ironically the very book that the original poster was disappointed in continues to deliver useful information to me several years after my purchase. I should say that it was not an ebook at the time and was printed on red paper to deter photocopying. The ebook is actually easier to read! But I haven't been disappointed in anything I've purchased from Jerome. It is interesting to contrast this discussion with the one downstairs. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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Dr. Spektor - George Anderson - a gift that keeps on giving. I dedicated a period of time obtaining and studying everything in the bibliography of "It Must Be Mindreading". Well worth the time and effort. Everything he ever wrote is useful. Message:

Posted by: THB (Apr 3, 2013 3:48pm)

Doesn't the practice of shamanism require some empathy? I thaught it did. I guess I was mistaken. Message:

Posted by: seadog93 (Apr 3, 2013 4:01pm)

Quote:

On 2013-04-03 15:48, THB wrote: Doesn't the practice of shamanism require some empathy? I thaught it did. I guess I was mistaken.

Shamans and spiritual practitioners can get just as grumpy or upset as anyone else. In fact, esoteric spirituality is about healing the artificial barriers that society sets up for us between ourselves and our emotions (causing chronic tension or "character armor" from a Reichian perspective as we repress ourselves), so when a shaman gets upset it could, arguably be more visible than when a 'normal person' (whatever that is!) gets upset. ...I only made a point of responding to that because I've been re-reading my Riechian and neo-Riechian books lately and was specifically thinking of that point last night. Not that I think it's unreasonable to have a level of control over how we express our emotions, but I think the sweetness-and-light ideal of spirituality is just a projection and extension of the armoring that we all have (or that I have at least). Message:

Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 3, 2013 4:09pm)

Hi guys, As I mentioned it previously, I have strictly nothing to blame about the material sold. It absolutely rocks the house, and very very hard. BUT such a contrast with that attitude against customers, absolutely nothing to care about them : it's strictly impossible to feel that it's the same person writing here and in his books.

When he complains about beeing pirated, we can't say better that Lucien Astor : Quote: If an exclusive and sold-out release is pirated, the person who loses financially is the purchaser. Not the seller, because they have made all the money they were going to make once the limited run was sold-out. I can understand the creator being angry about piracy, but re-releasing the material seems to be about capitalizing on an existing market demand, imho. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15

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I have never seen him perform. With such material, I'm sure he is a very nice reader and performer. I can't imagine anything else. But with such laudative material, it will be for sure very difficult for him to produce a lot of video performances of the 200 effects in his books, each beeing polished up while hundreds of performances... Why ? Because with the way he writes, we can use our right brain and idealize what we feel right about mentalism and what we can dream about. => Even the best performer (!) couldn't compete with such books.

BUT such books are the best food for thoughts, perfect thinking, incredible ideas seen nowhere else, delicacy of study and wonderfull advices for any professional reader of psychic mentalist. And when you try the pieces (and I've tried a few...), they work ! If he performs all the pieces he describes or none of them isn't interest for me. I see what that brings to me, my character, my performance and how to always improve it. Even when I will be 50+ . The quality of his books isn't (for me) a point to be discuted.

I'm profoundly disappointed with the character himself. And I'm sure that he knows and regrets it now... But with a very pronounced Mont of Jupiter and a Heart line sticked to the Life Line, it will be very difficult to bend his verbal sparring match... That's all.

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