Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification.pdf

September 22, 2017 | Author: Civil War | Category: Firearms, Magazine (Firearms), Cartridge (Firearms), Revolver, Projectile Weapons
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November 26th, 2001, 08:47 PM

I have recently made one by takin a small piece of pipe & drilled holes in it like a shroud. Then put it in a 20oz. pop bottle, Through holes in both ends. I then put a little tape around my barrel to get a tighter fit inside the pipe. It nearly cut the sound in half I was surprised. Have any of you ever made one if so please share how well it worked, & how you made it. -----------------Monkeyman

EventHorizon

November 27th, 2001, 07:22 AM

Baffle type are simple to make. If you are fortunate to have some metal working equipment you can eaisly fabricate one. If I can ever get my spare PSU back I can scan the silencer book I have. -----------------"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur "Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me PGP ID 0x147CEF54

CyclonitePyro

November 27th, 2001, 09:23 AM

(In various dreams) I experimented with the bottle types, I heated the end of them to make them soft and then shot a hole through it to make a perfectly placed hole, they work well but are not practical and are large. I make the silencers for my Ruger 10/22, I also have a Bultler Creek folding stock in it and a scope, and some smaller accessories like an extended mag, release, auto bolt release and bolt buffer. Use subsonic rounds for it, their velocity is just below the speed of sound so the make no sonic boom while flying, that is where most of your sound comes from, I buy 500rd bricks of them and they don't last long with a 50rd clip. The silencer I use now is a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, it slides right on the barrel and has and L shaped notch in it so it can slide on past the sight on the end of the barrel and then you twist in so it locks in place and won't slide off. In the middle of it is a metal washer held in place by small sloped nails and PVC glue, The inner hole of the washer is just right for a .22 bullet. On the end are two rubber grommets held in place by nails and PVC glue. It is painted flat black and looks just like a maufactured silencer and works great. I built it so that neighbors wouldn't complain, and it works well for its purpose. If not for them then I really wouldn't have cared about the noise. It works nice for shooting animals, Cananda Geese for example, one drops, and the one next to it has no freakin idea what happened, where if not for the silencer, the whole flock would have flew away. -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg

November 27th, 2001, 05:05 PM

"If you are fortunate to have some metal working equipment you can eaisly fabricate one." I have every thing I would need, Cutting/welding torch, plasma cutter, Wire & arc welders, & a metal lathe. Do you have any good ideas? Im thinking of making it with the same idea, just with a pipe so its smaller than a pop bottle, that way aiming is more accurate. -----------------Monkeyman

CyclonitePyro

November 27th, 2001, 08:24 PM

What imaginary gun is this silencer for? -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg

November 28th, 2001, 05:31 PM

If your talking to me, This/these "Imaginary" guns are a Savage .22, & an AR-7 .22. I also have a 30-06, but am not going slide a metal silincer onto it, as I do not want to scratch it. It is one of my most prized possesions. Oh yeah, I also have an old bolt action mossberg 20 gauge w/ a 2 round clip. It is also one of my favorites. -----------------Monkeyman

twinkle

November 30th, 2001, 04:41 AM

information on a high powered rifle silencer goto here : http://guns.connect.fi/rs/btxgraaf.html http://guns.connect.fi/rs/mxgraaf.html http://guns.connect.fi/rs/Reflex.html as for improvising (for a .22LR)you can use beerbottle caps which you reshape till they fit nicely in a tube or you could use aluminium screenwire winded up to a roll and then taped onto a barrel

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Kdogg

November 30th, 2001, 03:21 PM

Hey CyclonitePyro so how does your silencer work on your "IMAGINARY" Ruger 10/22. Oh yeah why dont you use your imagination & think up a shotgun to make a silencer for, so your dont have to use a .22 hunting geese? -----------------Monkeyman

kingspaz

November 30th, 2001, 03:31 PM

you can't silence a shotgun can you? someone correct me if i'm wrong since i don't know much about guns. the shot doesn't make an airtight fit with the barrel so the gas behind the round can't be absorbed by the silencer as the bullet goes past. well thats how i allways thought a silencer worked.

Cricket

November 30th, 2001, 03:37 PM

Someone once said that a loaf of bread over the muzzle will silence a .22 nicely. -----------------"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania

zaibatsu

November 30th, 2001, 04:02 PM

I don't know a lot about shotguns, but doesn't the wad (?) make an airtight seal? Anyway, I have seen silenced barrels for shotguns, advertised in Gun Mart for anyone from the UK -----------------Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

Predator

November 30th, 2001, 04:07 PM

What a good memory you have.. that was my stating a loaf of bread worked nicely in my dream. Anyone tried that method out yet? Someone was joking saying we should write out bread-loaf silencer specifications; kaiser rolls for this, buns for that lol [This message has been edited by Predator (edited 11-30-2001).]

Cricket

November 30th, 2001, 04:17 PM

I thought it was you, but wasn't sure. I live in the city now and can't test it or I would. Maybe on vacation for Chriatmas I will be able to. -----------------"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania

Kdogg

November 30th, 2001, 11:43 PM

"Someone once said that a loaf of bread over the muzzle will silence a .22 nicely." What a waste of bread! I have not tried silencing a shotgun before, one mm to the wrong direction & the shot blow it clean off. -----------------Monkeyman

BoB-

December 1st, 2001, 01:00 AM

In that same thread it was mentioned that a potato over the muzzle of a .22 would silence it. I've dreamed of silencing a 30-06 with a watermelon stuck on the barell, worked great. -----------------Teamwork is essential. It lets you blame someone else. [This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 12-01-2001).]

HMTD Factory

December 1st, 2001, 05:23 AM

Muffling the muzzle changes point of impact a lot ,so they are not likely practical. An old fashioned silencer is simply a multi-chambered attachment on the muzzle so the powder gas have time to expand and depressurize before it's released outside(the lower the pressure is, the smaller the sound)

Anthony I've seen silencers for shotguns for sale too. "one mm to the wrong direction & the ... blow it clean off."

December 1st, 2001, 10:19 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Surely that's going to be true of almost any projectile? I can see a melon working as the internal cavity would act as an expansion chamber. But a potato is dense and water soaked so I doubt it would really absorb any sound. Bread would work well because of the porus nature of it, loads of connected air pockets that the gas can expand into.

CyclonitePyro

December 1st, 2001, 10:20 AM

The silencer I was talking about works great, you 80% of the sound you do hear comes from the bolt clanking back and forth. That's why I bought the bolt buffer, instead of the bolt hitting a metal pin in the back of the reciever it hits a soft polyurethane pin, much more quiet. -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Fingerless

December 1st, 2001, 03:47 PM

Cyclonite, how long is your PVC silencer? I purchased some 1/2" PVC to make a silencer for my 10/22 but it was about the same size as the barrel, are you sure thats the size you have? I'll have to get some 3/4 and try it. Are the rubber grommets on the end of the silencer that slides over the gun muzzle or at the opposite end of the silencer? What purpose does the washer in the middle of the tube serve? I'm not sure what its for, to create multiple chambers? Thanks, it sounds like a good system if it works as good as you say, I'd like a quiet system for shooting squirrels in town. I purchased a couple hundred American Eagle subsonic rounds a month or so a go in plan to do that, but I still need a silencer. Where do I get this replacement pin at? Eventhorizon, that would be great if you could put some designs/ideas from your book on.

CyclonitePyro

December 4th, 2001, 07:53 PM

Hey, Fingerless, sorry I took so long, I had to sleep and dream to measure it, and remember what the PVC I used is called. I know what you mean I tried regular 1/2" and it was too small, then I used 3/4" and I had to make a complicated adapter, and it was less practical. The PVC I found is called Rigid PVC, get the 1/2" It's grey instead of white, I think it's used for electrical stuff, like putting wires through. It makes an almost perfect fit. My dream silencer is 10" long and slides over the barrel so 8" protrudes off the barrel. And yes you're right I used the washer in the center to make two separate chambers. And the grommets go at the end of your silencer, you don't have to use grommets, you could use washers but I found perfectly fitting grommets. And then just make sure you find a way to make them stay in place. -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Fingerless

December 5th, 2001, 05:32 AM

Good ideas Cyclonite, but where did you get your bolt buffer at for your 10/22? I haven't seen them before, and would like one. I've studied up on silencers a bit and am currently developing one for .22's and one for .45's and the .22 is coming along nicely. I've found a good adapter for the barrel is a large, dense high grade cork. One end of the cork is epoxied into your silencer tube and the other end is drilled slightly smaller than your barrel and the barrel is slid in. Then a 1/4 inch whole is drilled all the way through the cork for the bullet. FOr my silencer I'm utilizing a thin aluminum tube with copper cross tubes inside bedded in probablly epoxy, I don't know yet I'm not that far. Then fiberglass insulation will be put in the spaces and a washer will be brazed to the end. I'll let you know the complete plans and everything if it works out well.

CyclonitePyro

December 5th, 2001, 03:28 PM

O yeah I forgot about that. Go to ebay and type ruger 10/22, you will find a bunch of bolt buffers and other cool accessories, like a ventilated handguard. Or you could go to www.gunaccessories.com (http://www.gunaccessories.com) they have em -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Kdogg

December 5th, 2001, 04:02 PM

Does anyone have any info on a .22 LR full auto converstion?? -----------------Monkeyman

EventHorizon

December 5th, 2001, 05:36 PM

I've got info on converting the 10/22 to select fire. As soon as I get my scanner up and going I'll scan it. PS: NBK (or anyone else, I know NBK has mentioned it), do you have a good OCR program. I can't seem to find either of the top 2 in a full install package, only serials. -----------------"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur "Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me PGP ID 0x147CEF54

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Kdogg

December 5th, 2001, 07:30 PM

"I've got info on converting the 10/22 to select fire. As soon as I get my scanner up and going I'll scan it." That sounds great, I am very interested! Thanks -----------------Monkeyman

twinkle

December 6th, 2001, 09:08 AM

I do have drawings of converting a Winchester model 64& model 490 cal .22 for semi and full auto if you like

Kdogg

December 6th, 2001, 05:04 PM

Yes, twinkle. Please send them. It would be great for imformational purposes only. -----------------Monkeyman

EventHorizon

December 6th, 2001, 09:21 PM

I have the Silencer PDF done, hope its acceptable quality for ya'll. As soon as I verify that Adobe didn't stick some hidden info in the file somewhere, I'll post to my Yahoo breifcase and post a link here. Soon to follow, converting the 10/22 to FA. EDIT: Here is where to find the file. http://briefcase.yahoo.com/eventhorizon308 -----------------"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur "Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me PGP ID 0x147CEF54 [This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited 12-07-2001).]

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 12:06 AM

I will send them as you can tell me where to ? I did not see an email address

SawedOff8gaugeman

December 7th, 2001, 11:47 AM

Twinkle, a suggestion: upload them somewhere and then post a link.

Kdogg

December 7th, 2001, 05:21 PM

I thought you were going to post them here, Anyways [email protected] -----------------Monkeyman

twinkle

December 8th, 2001, 10:33 AM

I mailed the drawings to Kdogg while I have no idea how to post something on the www but if you want them to SawedOff8gaugeman I can send them to .

Kdogg

December 8th, 2001, 10:37 AM

Thanks Twinkle -----------------Monkeyman

Fingerless

December 8th, 2001, 05:36 PM

I got some new ammunition for my .22 today that I have to tell you guys about. One type is called Aguila SSS (Sniper sub sonic)the other type are called Aguila super colibri's. The SSS's are built on a short case but have a 60(!) grain bullet. Overall they are the same size and profile as a .22 long rifle and cycle the same as a .22 LR. Due to the bullet being 50% heavier than a standard solid long rifle bullet, they have much more kinetic energy and "knock down power". They also retain there speed much better than a standard .22 LR-also, they are subsonic and very quiet, but still have the oomph of a long rifle 40 grainer. They are very consistent and accurate and might make decent target rounds. They drop tree rats and rabbits like a ton of bricks. I shot a rabbit in the body from 50 yards with my 10/22 today and it was dead by the time I got to it. THe super colibri is a standard long rifle case, but theres no powder in it! It has a small 20 grain lead bullet that is propelled by merely the priming compound-don't laugh, its more powerful than it seems. I dented a plate of mild sheet steel from 30 yards or so. I also killed a rabbit today with one cleanly with a head shot from about 25 yards. They are subsonic, and very quiet, and don't travel too far. But they are extremely consistent and accurate. They are no louder than a air rifle, maybe quieter, even without a suppressor. I'm not sure of the velocity, its somewhere around 500 FPS I think I read. THe SSS are 950 or so, but I'll check on those numbers. You guys should check these rounds out. Anyone else have experience with these rounds? What have you concluded? Like/no? Cyclonite, what subsonic rounds are you shooting-I also got some remington subsonics but they occassionaly go supersonic.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter CyclonitePyro

December 9th, 2001, 03:32 PM

I use Remingtons subsonics, I've never had them go supersonic, regular .22 ammo's velocity is between 1055 fps and 1100 fps, the speed of sound is 1055 fps, Remingtons subsonics are 1049 fps, right under the sound barrier, so its like shooting reg, ammo without the noise. I'll have to try some other brands, but I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference since I like to just walk aroung and randomly unload on shit. I only shoot animals when there is is one unlucky enough to be near me, I don't sit and wait for animal with my .22 That's where my rifle comes in, when I go hunting I use a Savage .300, I shot a doe in the head this season, always wanted to do that. It dropped right away, when I walked to it, its legs were still moving and I didn't know at the time if I had a head shot, and I didn't want it getting up and biting me J/K, so I shot it point blank in the head, again. Messy! -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide"

Anthony

December 9th, 2001, 05:42 PM

20gr at 500fps is just over 11ft/lb! No wonder they're about as loud as an air rifle:) Ok for rabits, but people no way.

Kdogg

December 9th, 2001, 07:20 PM

All you can basically hear is the click. No boom, nothing, it doesnt even move the action. -----------------Monkeyman

Fingerless

December 11th, 2001, 05:18 PM

Yes, surely not enough for people. But excellent for the "backyard" hunter! If you wanted to hunt a person, theoretically of course, the Aguila SSS pushing a 60 grain bullet at around 900 fps would be very well subsuited-in a closed action and with a silencer its very quiet I've concluded.

Jhonbus

December 13th, 2001, 12:04 AM

Just a note about the use of a potato as a silencer. While doing some research (actually on a semi/full auto air gun "potato gun") I found this document: Interior Ballistic Deformation, by Mike Haag (Albuquerque New Mexico P.D.) Abstract: None. During the investigation of a murder in Albuquerque, eight bullet fragments were recovered from the victim and potato fragments were recovered from the scene. The victim was shot three times. It appears that the potato was used as a silencer placed over the barrel of the firearm used in the murder. The potato found at the scene was tested and positive reactions for lead residues was noted. Additional tests were conducted to see if a potato actually worked as a silencer. Mr. Haag's results found that the potato did not effectively silence a revolver. A potato used on a semi-auto firearm did reduce the volume of the gunshot. The potato reduced bullet velocities from around 950 feet per second to near 600 feet per second. The bullets recovered from having been fired with the potato on the barrel were very elongated and "wasp-waisted". Mr. Haag found that when the potato was placed on the barrel a plug of potato is pushed into the barrel. With the rest of the potato removed, bullets fired down the barrel had this deformation. He concluded the bullet deformation was occurring in the barrel and not externally. -----------------You must create. PGP Key ID on MIT server: 0x0ADBA985

atropine

January 5th, 2002, 02:12 PM

ive seen a silenced shotgun in my local gunshop, the thing is so huge and bulky i doubt it is practical enough to bother with. I asked how much it silences the crack. He said about 10% on a good day. Oh and in a dream i made a silenced zip gun running from primer driven pellets. The silencer appeared to be a piece of aluminium tubing with a series of spacers and baffles. If i could have heard anything in this dream i would have said that it silenced the bang very very nicely, to about that of a co2 pistol.

zaibatsu

January 5th, 2002, 03:57 PM

Thats why you use subsonic ammo with the silenced shotguns, although there is a point to using a silencer with a supersonic load (be it bullet or shot) thats not really what people are talking about in this thread.

shane

May 29th, 2002, 04:08 AM

i have in a folder of some improvised explosives and within that is a list of where you can get product and one of the is a silence "kit" as a kit it is not legal to purchase (as far as i know i live in australia so my knowledge of american law is a bit

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sketchy)but you can attach this silencer on a ruger mark 1 (i think i have the address and info stored away)but if anyone wants the address give me a buzz at [email protected] any other stuff you want to know about let me know

xoo1246

May 29th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Mmm, I wish I had an imaginary Ruger Mk II. Gun laws around here forces you to join a shooting club and be in it for two month before buying one. I'll probably have to do that.

McGuyver

May 29th, 2002, 11:42 PM

If someone had a metal lathe and all the goodies for making metal into nice things, they could fabricate a pipe that was the perfect diameter for their bullet. They could even rifle it. Many holes would then be put in this piece of pipe. The holes allow the gases to go into your air chamber(below) instead of out the muzzle. Then two washers could be welded onto the two ends of the pipe maybe a 1/2 an inch away from the end. The holes would only be between the two washers. Then, on the outside of the washers(or outer edge) there would be a piece of pipe to create a nice air chamber for the rapidly expanding gases. The pipe would of course be welded to the washers. The barrel could be threaded inside or out, and then your silencer could also be threaded to make a removable silencer in case some pigs catch you using it, and you have to chuck it somewhere. You will have to work on threading yourself because every gun is different. You can also vary length and volume of air chamber to your specs. Make sure everything is perfect, you wouldn't want it blowing up in your face. It may be a good idea to make the inner pipe a bit larger were the bullet first enters. Test it by puting a tight fitting dowel or something that fits tight inside the silencer, through the silencer, and into the barrel, if there is any (I mean any!) resistance between the the silencer and barrel do something about it. Also, make sure the bullet fits without any resistance. You should also test it from a distance a few times just to be on the safe side-like standing behind a tree or something that will stop metal shards. This should make the gun just as accurate as it was before the silencer but much quieter. I built a silencer like Cyclonite's but without 2 chambers and quite a bit longer. It is great for silencing but the accuracy is not to good. I would love to make a silencer like this but I do not have all the metal fabrication goodies needed, mind you this all came from a dream.

Probe

June 2nd, 2002, 10:29 AM

OOOOK, here it gos, I recently have aquired a .22 for myself, and want to make a silencer for it (that bitch is loud, bolt action, and the clip didnt work { falling apart }, so now its basicly breech loaded, anyways back to the quiestion), I have no metal working tools, and I would prefur to use PVC because I already have some laying around. My barrle is unthreaded( :( ) and such so it will be a bit harder. Does anyone have any plans they got layin around for this purpose? I dont have exact mesurements but I'll get 'em if you need them. I need it to be pretty small, and I'll probobly have a tripple chamber, 1 pipe inside another and the one that the bullet pass's through will have holes and 2 chambers to expand better. Any input would be apriciated(sp?) ty :) , forgot to mention the annoying neghbores(sp) who dis-aprove of guns. :rolleyes:

CyclonitePyro

June 2nd, 2002, 01:26 PM

A .22 loud?, Do you mean in comparison to othere .22's?, .22's are quiet compared to other guns. Is shooting legal where you live? If so find a place to shoot so that it isn't dangerous to anyone and annoy those scum sucking neighbors of yours, unless your parents are on good terms with them. Your goal of finding a silencer is no different from the other people here, I wish I had a threaded barrel. Try to see if you have "rigid PVC" that fits on the end of most .22's, it is grey 1/2" pipe that is meant for containing electrical lines. Also, read above what was written in the past.

Fl4PP4W0k

June 2nd, 2002, 01:49 PM

Hey guys, has anyone ever made an, ahem, "Zip" Gun using standard .22 primers and Air Rifle pellets? I had an interesting idea that kinda expanded on my old .22primer\6mm graphite BB trick.... Basically, its using a .22 primer and a .22 air rifle pellet but with an air rifle barrel. Would anyone thats maybe tried this method compare power with a standard 850+fps air rifle? As i do not have an air rifle, i can not compare power :\ (the only air guns i have are 12ga+ :D ) By using this with a silencer and standard break action, it would be pretty good fer taking down the odd backyard kritters that may roam into your domain :mad: About the silencer.... I was thinking about a vented 6mm tubing that fits the air rifle pellet pretty well, and releases to a 15mm PVC pipe length - the gap filled with that non-static foam??? Any suggestions or info, thx rob

Probe

June 3rd, 2002, 01:41 AM

No, my .22 is VERY loud, you can hear it for about a mile, thanks for the help with the pipe, I'll grab one in the morning. And I'm underaged for a firearm, I'm not going to go out killing people, just shoot targets in my backyard (filled with flashpowder of course.) I piss off the neighbors already, I told them that it was an air rifle when they came over wondering what the noise was. They responded "Thats one loud air rifle" I ended up saying "Yeah it uses a whole CO2 cartridge at once"

xoo1246

June 3rd, 2002, 04:07 PM

Fl4PP4W0k: I once tried to load some friction/heat/shock sensitive mixture I extracted from some caps (you use when you fish on the ice, like larger toy caps) behind a .177 air rifle bullet. This was some time ago, anyway, the speed was icreased and it was noticable better in pentrating targets. I helpt eroding the barrel too. I doubt you can hear a .22 from a mile in urban/woody areas.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter [ June 03, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Anthony

June 4th, 2002, 08:10 PM

Fl4PP4W0k, I'd forget the primer and just use a .22LR blank if you can't get complete .22 rounds. An air rifle pellet is a bit light but it will give you more muzzle energy than most air rifles.

Fl4PP4W0k

June 5th, 2002, 07:13 AM

Yer, thx Anthony - but you need a license for blank ammunition in backwards Australia methinks. I know that .22 primers are purchaseable in tins of 100 at the local army surplus store.. so that is me reason for the preoject :D But ofcourse, if one can get .22 Blanks, then by all means they would be better. Im just proposing something that is totally license free, but more powerful than a good air rifle ( as you need a license for even THEM!!!) l8r, rob

ShotgunsAreFun

June 5th, 2002, 08:35 AM

.22 primers from a surplus store in Australia?! We cant buy air rifle pellets! Where do you get primers from?

Fl4PP4W0k

June 5th, 2002, 09:42 AM

*evil grin* muhuhahahaha >:] What state are you in? Bcoz in WA, they arent considered munitions. :D $12.50 for a tin of 100 Not too bad...

ShotgunsAreFun

June 5th, 2002, 09:07 PM

I hate NSW. Can primers be sent through the mail? I mean, in a box or something. Or do they x-ray them? I know that primers can be used as the propellant for practice bullets, they send a plastic round out at 300-400 fps... a couple of those behind a blowdart should be interesting :D [ June 05, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: ShotgunsAreFun ]

electric emu

June 5th, 2002, 10:48 PM

Im pretty sure you can order through the mail with out hazardous shipping through a place like natchezs or lock stock barrel. I dont know about austrailia. and how do you get .22 primers thats a rimfire caliber and its built in unless you take it apart on your own. [ June 05, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]

Magas

June 6th, 2002, 04:51 AM

Primers can't be sent through the mail in oz as they are classed as explosives. You do need a license to buy blanks for a 22 however you don't need a license to by Ramset charges which are 22 blanks just be over 18 stupid laws :)

Fl4PP4W0k

June 6th, 2002, 05:50 AM

They arent technically "primers", theyre actually crimped .22 brass that only contains a primer, about half the length of a .22 short casing. l8r

Whitey

June 7th, 2002, 09:57 PM

probe if you just want to quiet the gun down for target practice you could use quieter ammo. Try "cb caps" made by CCI. They are low powered rounds and are about 3/4 of the length of a regular .22lr. I have tried them myself and they are about as loud as a pellet gun. I would reccomend these because if you get caught with the gun you don't want to get busted for a silencer as well. Also if someone sees your rifle with a piece of pipe hanging off the muzzle they will know what it is. The downside is that they usually don't have enough power to cycle a semi auto. But that doesn't matter since your rifle is a single shot bolt action anyway.

PYRO500

June 8th, 2002, 03:07 AM

I have herd of those cb pellets, I herd they were just a primer driving a very light projectile. I think they are just for short range/indoor paper punch and I would suspect they would do a little less damage than a cheapo rusted out 20 buck pellet gun. a while back someone (NBK2000?) posted a link to silent cartredge ammo that would need no silencer and had something with the cartrage to absorb most of the gas so there wasn't that loud a blast. The downside was reduced lethality

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although, when do you need to use a silenced pistol long range?

Sparky

June 8th, 2002, 11:52 AM

Maybe this is a stupid idea, but for people who can't get blank rounds maybe they could try the charges from nail guns. They are kind of like a blank round but I'm not sure if they would fit into a .22 bore. For people who can't get ammunition and want to make a zip gun this could be an idea.

Whitey

June 8th, 2002, 06:00 PM

pyro, your basically correct they are actually designed so that you can practice shooting inside your basement or something and not damage your hearing or alert your neighbors. I know they are useful for eliminating pests but I wouldn't trust them for self defense. But since I think he is mainly interested in target practise the cb caps might fit his situation. If he was looking something that was quiet but still fairly destructive, subsonic rounds (aguilla) might be worth a try.

xoo1246

June 8th, 2002, 06:20 PM

I have read that the aguilla aren't as good as they claim to be, try different brands and compare them. No personal experience.

Harry

June 21st, 2002, 01:29 PM

A body could try using the "end caps" from 35mm film rolls--walk in to you local photofinisher and ask for the contents of their film recycle bag. "Unroll" the empty 35mm rolls (you may get a sore finger or 2) and save the ends. You now have several corrugated steel circles with holes in the center, ALL the same size! Use some imagination for the body of your muffler.

auzquad

July 21st, 2002, 11:19 AM

learn to spell [ July 22, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]

Anthony

July 21st, 2002, 08:51 PM

Yes, if you're making a silencer then you want to make the size of the chambers between the baffles different sizes (and not multiples of each other), to better absorb the different wavelengths of sound.

McGuyver

July 22nd, 2002, 01:04 AM

The key is to find a straight piece of pipe (preferably steel) that has the exact same inner diameter as your barrel. If you find that then your set. If anyone has a good source for pipe that has an inner diameter of .22, let me know please. I have the same silencer as cyconite's but with the silencer it is inaccurate. With a pipe inside the silencer to guide the bullet it should be just as accurate without it.

Anthony

July 22nd, 2002, 04:38 PM

A silencer the diameter of your calibre isn't going to really make any difference to muzzle noise. Or do you mean drilling the calibre matched tube so that the propellant gas escapes and expands into the silencer casing outside of the pipe? That could be effective, but I'm not sure that it would work as the transition of the bullet from the muzzle into the pipe coul shave the bullet or make it bounce along the pipe slightly. It'd be hard to get the pipe as tight as the barrel otherwise the bullet would probably rip the silencer off :)

Anthony Privratsky

July 22nd, 2002, 04:50 PM

A few years ago i remember watching a show that had an improvised silencer in it. This kid murdered this other kids family for him. :( And he had made a silencer using a carbon tube that had 3 tennis balls pushed into the tube. The tennis balls distributed the sound very well. I might do an experiment using that same idea later this week.

McGuyver

July 22nd, 2002, 09:16 PM

Yes, I did mean drilling holes in the pipe and having that enclosed in a larger pipe. Just having a pipe there would do nothing to silence it. I would definitely test any homemade silencer remotely a few times before used normally. I've seen a few fly apart already. You definitely would have to stick some kind of rod or dowel down your barrel to make sure they are aligned properly- even then it should be tested a few times.

Tyler_Durden

July 23rd, 2002, 02:03 AM

i was just thinking about a way to silence rifles... what's wrong with drilling the barrel or the rifle, instead of adding to it? then, add another pipe around it w/ holes in it, and maybe even another if you wanted to. this method would mean that you dont have to worry about alignment, the loss of aim would be minimal, and overall it would be a lot easier to make.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter what do you all think of this? edit: of course you would want to do this with an inexpensive rifle (sks perhaps), and it would be permanent, so the rifle definitely couldnt be found by the authorities! [ July 23, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]

john_smith

July 23rd, 2002, 04:53 AM

This drilling the barrel is already done in MP5SD, Sterling Patchett etc. It lowers the muzzle velocity quite a bit, allowing to shoot normal supersonic ammo. As for permanent, te MP5 has a sleeve on the barrel inside the silencer which can be slid over the holes if needed, giving the bullet nearly normal velocity and also protecting the silencer. I'd like to try this, yet I'm in Europe and thus there really isn't such a thing as a disposable rifle for me. P.S. IMHO making a SKS subsonic doesn't make much sense. A pistol caliber carbine would be the best choice for this. [ July 23, 2002, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]

McGuyver

July 23rd, 2002, 12:25 PM

Yeah, that would definitely work, I suppose the biggest problem is it is so permanent. The sleeve to put over the holes is a good idea though. I think the hardest thing would be getting the barrel and holes free of the little metal pieces left over from drilling. If even one metal piece stays in there and the bullet can't pass properly... :( .

john_smith

July 23rd, 2002, 01:38 PM

It probably won't be THAT much of a problem. http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm, look for barrel lapping. A link for MP5SD:http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm [ July 23, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: john_smith ]

Sparky

July 23rd, 2002, 06:33 PM

I remember a book I read that had directions for a fiberglass silencer http://www.overthrow.com/books/view.asp?showCat=Hitman&showText=text20010310174753.txt The book is called Hitman and has been forced out of print. Someone killed some people after reading the book and Paladin was forced to destroy the already printed copies and stop printing the book.

Eliteforum

July 23rd, 2002, 06:37 PM

That Hitman book is a farce! It has nowhere near enough information for it to be valuable, and just to point out, it was written by a female bored house wife. One of the admin's said something about this book a while back, don't remember who it was though.

Anthony

July 23rd, 2002, 07:08 PM

It was probably NBK. IIRC, the book was originally written as a fiction work, but paladin said they would only print it if it was in the form of a "handbook". Change a few words around and there you go, fiction becomes how-to.

McGuyver

July 23rd, 2002, 08:02 PM

John_Smith - Lapping doesn't sound like something that too many people would want to have done. Seeing how homemade silencers are illegal and that sort of thing. Besides that, lapping isn't possible after there are holes in the barrel :rolleyes: . Maybe a really stiff wire brush or something along that line would do it. I would still test it remotely a few times.

john_smith

July 23rd, 2002, 08:48 PM

I admit having never lapped a rifled barrel, but it doesn't seem so complicated - after all, the point is just to push something that fits very tight through the barrel a couple of times to get the crap out, not building a $x.000 sniper rifle. The brush would probably work, too, and if the barrel survives the first (remotely fired) shot, it'll be additionally and completely cleaned by the bullet. Really not something to fret about.

Anthony

July 23rd, 2002, 08:54 PM

I'd imagine that Fire Lapping would do the job.

McGuyver

July 24th, 2002, 01:16 AM

Hey man, nobody's frettin'! I just don't want someone trying this (barrel silencer) and messing up there AK or something. Some people care about their guns- no matter if it's a .22 or a .50 cal sniper. Yeah I know what you mean by lapping, but I was talking about your article which defines lapping as using lead. Sure, you can

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stick something that fits nice and tight and lap the barrel. Which is what you need to do, to lap it, after holes are drilled. Another good thing about the removable silencer is, of course, it being removable. If your walking around with a silencer fixed on your barrel and a annoying neighbor calls the pigs on you- your screwed. With a removable one you just gotta hide it somewhere or chuck it on the run.

Charlie Workman

July 24th, 2002, 02:58 AM

There are a couple of ways to avoid, or at least reduce the burrs in your ported barrels. One is to use a new drill bit or the sharpest you can get. Another is to fill the barrel with lead, drill the holes, then melt out the lead. I can't vouch for that last one, but heard it from a fairly reliable source. If the ports aren't too small you can use a deburring tool to carefully scrape the inside of the hole. If you are going to port your barrel it should be on a gun that can't be traced to you. That way if you have to toss it, it's only a monetary loss. No gun is worth 10 years at Club Fed (US). That's why I tell people if they want to get me something I'll really like for Christmas or my birthday, they should get me a "cold piece". I've got a couple. Otherwise, a detachable/disposable is best. I made one from a liter oil bottle that fitted perfectly on my Ruger MKII bull barrel. I cut off the bottom and filled it with fiberglass pipe wrapping tape, folded into a stack. The bottom was resealed with duct tape. So quiet it was scary. --------------------------------------------------------------------"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas" -Gidget

PYRO500

July 24th, 2002, 06:08 AM

And how exactly do you plan on getting that lead out? you would have to use a torch witch would really heat up the barrel and cause the temper (the process that makes metals harder or brittler by slowing/speeding their cooling) to be totally wasted. [ July 24, 2002, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

Anthony

July 24th, 2002, 11:19 AM

I can't imagine it'd do much for the blueing either. I think even if the bullet does get shaved slightly by a burr, it might not have *that* effect on accuracy, I guess at wordt it would make the bullet keyhole. Charlie Workman, what effect did the bullet passing through the fibreglass stuff have on accuracy?

zaibatsu

July 24th, 2002, 03:29 PM

I thought lapping was using a lead plug covered in a cutting fluid? Anyway, I think most professional silencers mainly use a baffle system, and I think that would be the best option, as well as making it detatchable.

Arkangel

July 24th, 2002, 04:31 PM

My old man used to have a BSA Sportsman 5 .22 rifle. It was a neat little bolt action jobbie, with a thread on the end of the barrel for it's silencer. I took the silencer apart quite a few times, and it was made very simply. It was an external metal tube 1" in diameter, with an internal thread at the barrel end, and external thread at the front end. (Naturally the barrel end had been reduced quite a bit) The front end cap unscrewed, and out fell a number of cup washers that fitted inside. These were made from 1.5mm steel, and had a .25" hole in the centres (forgive my mixed imperial/metric units - I'm at that awkward age) Altogether there were about ten of them, and a cross section looked like this: (hope it works) I___ ___I HEY, my first attempt at drawing something and I understood it. Let's hope you do.

Charlie Workman

July 24th, 2002, 05:04 PM

You don't have to screw up the temper when removing the lead. It melts at about 700 F (if memory serves). Just don't be too heavy handed with the torch. I object to it myself one other grounds, such as safety. Sharp drill bits or the scraper are safer and easier. Just thought I'd pass it along. I couldn't really test the accuracy effects on the oil bottle silencer. To fit it on the barrel I had to unscrew and remove the front sight. It' cheap and easy enough to test and come to your own conclusions. If you give the can a gentle squeeze after firing, it will blow tiny smoke rings out of the end. Unfortunately, it also blows pulverized fiberglass back into the action, something I didn't discover until I was cleaning it. ACK! --------------------------------------------------------------------"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas" -Gidget

PYRO500

July 24th, 2002, 08:06 PM

lead may melt at 700 degrees but try getting it that temp without heating the barrel to atleast twice that.

Energy84

July 25th, 2002, 01:03 AM

If you take your time and heat it slowly enough, the lead will get hot enough. You could also rig up an oil bath or something (the fluid must be stable to at least 700 degrees) and heat it to the required temperature then dip the end of the barrel into it. On second thought, you'd probably be better off to just use lead as your fluid. This would give you the means to fill the end of the barrel in the first place (just heat up a large mass of lead in a steel pot and stick in the end of the barrel as you reduce the heat). To take it out of the barrel again, the pot of lead would just be heated up again and the barrel reinserted.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter PYRO500

July 25th, 2002, 01:41 AM

Give it up with the lead barrel idea! if you did submerge the barrel in liquid lead that was just about 700 degrees you'l get all this lead slag stuff in the barrel and not to meniton how hard it is to melt that buch lead let alone support it so it dosen't crush it's supports

Energy84

July 25th, 2002, 01:50 AM

It's not very hard to melt lead. I've done it with a small propane torch. And it's not like I melted just a little bit, I had a whole pot full of it. I forgot to mention in my last post however that I do agree with you, the whole lead thing in the barrel probably wouldn't be a good idea. There are better ways...

Harry

July 25th, 2002, 10:07 AM

Somebody needs to take Remedial Electronics! A whole lot of sombodies! Electrical solder (and sheetmetal solder, for that matter) is an alloy of tin (Sn) and lead (Pb). It is alloyed to lower the (drum roll please) melting temp. Use the solid-core stuff. But, if you still get noivous about heating your barrel, there's bullets available that have an abrasive coating for cleaning rust pits in the bore, you could use ice to fill the bore before drilling (start with water, then freeze inside bore. Careful with the gasoperated's!), anything that you can melt in and melt out should work. Lapping the bore is still the best method, though. Harry

A-BOMB

July 25th, 2002, 12:06 PM

Anybody think of just some sandpaper on a cleaning jag?

McGuyver

July 25th, 2002, 12:51 PM

I don't think sandpaper would be such a good idea. Even though it would probably get the metal shavings out, it would mess up the barrel like maybe take some of the rifling off or something like that. I think a really stiff brush is the best option. [ July 25, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]

pyromaniac_guy

July 26th, 2002, 09:04 PM

instead of useing normal solder or even lead to fill a barrel to drill it, look for 'potting metal' i know msc sells it here in the states... it comes in two versions, a 'high' metling point material that flows at about 150c and sells for like 20 or 30 bux a pound, and then there is the 'good stuff' an indium gallium alloy IIRC... it metls at something like 60 centrigrade, so then all you need is a big pot of boiling water...

Energy84

July 27th, 2002, 05:14 AM

Bad idea. The temperatures generated from simply drilling the holes will be far in excess of 60 or even 150 degrees C. Especially on hard steel like a gun barrel, I wouldn't doubt if the temps could reach 250 or higher. You'd just need to use a sharp bit, lots of cutting fluid and patience...

Ron McDonald

August 8th, 2002, 05:11 AM

First I just want to make sure that nobody ever tries to silence a shot gun. It is really fun once, then you pick the metal out of your skin. The desings these guys post will work fine, just make it as long as you feel comfortible with. Subsonic ammo is the key. The silencer will only take care of the expanding gas, not the micro sonic boom from the bullet. Sub sonic ammo has less stopping power, but the squirrels in my back yard have not complained about the difference yet. I like subsonic ammo better than silencers, because it is legal.

rjche

August 15th, 2002, 10:01 PM

To silence a 22, cut the barrel off 2 inches from the bolt face. then put on the barrel stub a 12 inch piece of 1.5 inch brass sink drain pipe. Use metal washers to mount the pipe on the barrel stub as close to the breech as possible, with one washer at the end of the barrel. That washer has holes drilled in it so gas can pass back to the most rearward washer. 3 inches in front of the barrel end, another washer is soldered inside, hole in that washer is 3/8 inch. Every 3 inches do the same but for the end of the pipe use a rubber washer made by crazy gluing innertube rubber to the end. NO hole yet. when glued, trim excess off the outside of the pipe. This is a flexible orfice to avoid the pop of a projectile passing through a rigid orfice. To get the hole fire a shot through it, cut a 22 lead so all the round front is gone and its a flat cylinder faced lead slug. put the end against a wood plank and shoot a hole in the rubber.

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use a red hot nail to open that hole up to about 3/8 inches. This can silence the blast to about the same peak sound level that the bolt of a ruger 10/22 makes as it actions. 22 LR ammo leaves the muzzle at about 950 FPS. so the sound is little. Sound goes up exponentially as you get above about 800 FPS, and at 1050 it goes up explosively to a very loud noise indeed. At about 950 its still not very loud, but you are getting more bullet energy, and a little less bullet drop with distance. Good deadly to 50 yards on hard headed targets. At 100 yards it makes a several inch deep flesh wound, but not instantly serious. All 22 LR ammo burns about the same in a 2 inch bbl. It does not reach mach 1 till about 2.5 to 3 inches. By using 2 inches allmost all commercial 22 ammo will not crack as it exits the silencer. both std vel and Hi speed shoot about the same. The short barrel cuts pressure on the powder before it has burned up, and it just stops burning, and piles up in the silencer. Do shake it out now and then. Don't want to convert your soldered silencer into a meltdown. Remember putting ANYTHING on the end of a rifle barrel makes it shoot more or less way off what it used to. Silencers on snipe rifles are usually never removed for its hard to get them back exactly the same, and accuracy suffers at distance. For emergency use, tying a pillow over the end of the barrel is ok for close up use, like 20 yards. Bolt action rifle with std velocity ammo can be very quiet this way. The bullet shoots through the pillow for a distance of about 3 or 4 inches. Test it before trusting it. shooting so the barrel end is inside the car, at least a foot from the exit window, with the windown down only enough to let the bullet out without danger of hitting the glass, greatly quietens boom, but not crack. Use std velocity ammo. Same goes for shooting out holes in buildings, etc. The trouble with soda pop bottle silencers is the flexible sides do not attenuate the sound much. Much better to use a rigid bottle, or put a sleeve of innertube rubber snug over the bottle to stop the sound exiting its sides. bicycle innertube rubber slipped over the brass silencer tube also quietens it some.

rjche

August 22nd, 2002, 09:49 PM

For long barreled rifles like marlin 39a, drill with half inch drill into barrel end for distance of 6 inches. make a plug to fit the drilled hole for a new barrel end. Drill it with quarter inch drill. The plug must be a tight fit so no play exists. solder it in, or use epoxy. If must be at least half inch long plug. This will radically silence 22LR std vel. rounds, and the long bbl slows them down a tad so they very seldom crack even on cold days. Also it takes a skilled eye to spot the end plug if you do it well, crown it and blue it. If range persons question what ammo you are using have some sub sonic low power stuff to show em, or say you are burning up some very old ammo that has lost lots of its power. Better yet, don't take it to a range. The end plug must be about half to 3/4 inch long so looking into the barrel from the front it looks normal. Use 22LR std vel. Other subsonic stuff is very quiet with this end chamber. This silencer works best on long barrel guns. Not recommended for 16 18 or 20 inch bbls. short bbls exit pressure is too high, and velocity exceeds mach 1 even for std vel. BBl friction past the 16 inch distance exceeds push on the bullet, so bullets slow down in bbls past about 16 inches for 22. Also exit pressure drops a lot in long bbls due to heat transfer and plain old volume expansion. That's why such a low volume end chamber does so well on long bbls. BTW in Finland mufflers are required by law on both autos and firearms. They have lots of data on silencers on a website there. Search silencers on Google, and search each google page of urls for one going to finland. I think they have \fi\ in their url. lots of charts on pressure, velocity, volume, noise, etc. They also show commercial designs.

Zyklon_B

August 23rd, 2002, 05:11 PM

Are there no free sources of firearm silencers? I would think so.

xoo1246

August 23rd, 2002, 05:56 PM

Specify "free source". Is that like a natural resource? Anyhow, anyone from Finland?, is it correct that anyone can purchase silencers since they are not part of a weapon? Can foreigner purchase them too without suspision.

zaibatsu

August 23rd, 2002, 06:28 PM

Forgot to add, suppressors can also be bought freely in the UK by anyone, whether it be fullbore or air weapons.

McGuyver

August 24th, 2002, 12:12 AM

rjche, did you use a drill press to do that, or just wing it? It seems like it be pretty hard to keep the drill bit straight. I guess once you get it started you'd be okay but, if you don't- your fucked.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Not a bad idea though, very slick. :cool:

Kdogg

August 24th, 2002, 02:50 AM

"Are there no free sources of firearm silencers?" Free? No, ive never seen a place that gives away anything that could be used as a silencer. Unless you mean like a pillow or somthing, But I have always wondered about lawn mower mufflers, they look like they would work. (not the round ones, but the hollow tubular ones.) I think I will expiriment with this.

Harry

August 26th, 2002, 02:07 PM

Even simply drilling out the end chamber will give some benefit, without the plug. Sort of a half-baked flash suppressor effect. Not like a .22LR has any muzzle flash, but some benefit may be reaped in terms of report heard by user. Anybody have a .223 bull barrel they'd like to try this on?

McGuyver

August 26th, 2002, 09:36 PM

Kdogg, I'm quite sure those kind of mufflers have some kind of metal baffles in them. Like pieces of sheet metal to reflect the sound. So if you want to use one of those you'll have to drill holes through the baffles for the bullet to pass through. It will probably silence quite well though- good idea.

Energy84

August 26th, 2002, 11:10 PM

Uhhh, those straight lawn mower mufflers are straight through. They're like miniature dirtbike silencers. Anybody ever inspected a dirtbike silencer? They're about a foot long, 3 inches in diameter and have a one inch hole through the middle. Intended for *gasp* silencing! :D It'd be nice though if you could find one that has about a half inch hole instead. It'd probably be easier to silence a rifle then. Nice and convienient too because you can get custom silencers made of pretty much anything including steel, aluminum and titanium.

Kdogg

August 27th, 2002, 12:10 AM

its not completly hollow, its got like metal disks in them that the exhaust pass around. (Mine does anyways)You would simply have to put a small hole in those for the bullet to pass through.

McGuyver

August 27th, 2002, 12:29 AM

Yeah I thought most of them had baffles. Of course there are a lot of different kinds, so I guess some could be hollow. I'm sure the baffles will help though, since they reflect sound and pressure and also slow the escaping gas down. Keep us posted on your progress. Also, how are you planning to attach it to your gun?

Deja_W

August 27th, 2002, 02:07 AM

At this time most suppressers used in law enforcement are very similar to a barrel extension, with holes drilled in it then around this baffles are placed, then the outer casing. The reason is that suppressers made in this fashion are more reliable, while still retaining optimum sound reduction. Most long guns can be fitted with an internal suppressor, of this nature; this will lower velocity of the projectile, but in most cases it will not affect accuracy too much. Most rifle barrels are made of a type of aluminum, it has a name, but I can’t think of it, but it isn’t to hard to drill a hole in one, if you have a sharp drill bit, and high speed drill. This is a proven fact. I paid the $200 tax to have a silencer professionally attached to an AR-15 upper receiver converted to fire .22lr ammo.Yes suppressers are legal in America, but you have to pay. I was with the guy when he did it, all he did was remove the barrel, cut it down to 10”, slap it in a vise and used a dermal like tool to drill 12 holes in it. After that he welded six disks on, and filled the spaces with layers of screen mesh, and cotton fiber. The end cap was attached to the outer sleeve, and then could be screwed on, of off, to allow for changing or cleaning of the filler material. The sleeve also screwed onto the rear most disk to prevent any big gas leaks. In all it cost me $700, including the tax,and a back ground check, but it was worth it. After seeing it done I know that I could do it my self. In the end my weapon is very silent, even with standard ammo, because of the short barrel, the bullet seldom flies over 900fps. It has accuracy problems, 12” groups at thirty yards. And I’ve had two feed ramp jams, though that’s not the suppressers fault. Shotgun suppressors are big and clumsy, but they do work quite well. There is a company that makes an 18” extension barrel that screws in like a standard choke tube, it has holes all along it’s sides. It has no outer casing to cover these holes, but they claim when using sub sonic loads it reduces the noise level significantly. What significantly means is anyone’s guess. Besides, who wants to add another 18” to an all ready long gun? :rolleyes:

Anthony

August 27th, 2002, 04:05 PM

$700 for 12" groups @ 30yds??? OMFG! A barrel may be aluminium on the outside, but it's at least going to have a steel liner. Does anyone have any experience at drilling this, which must be pretty hard steel? I'm wondering if normal HSS bits will do, or if you need something more pricey like carbide bits. I'm guessing you could drill out the end of a barrel, like in rjche's idea with a handheld drill if you didn't have a drill press. The bore would act like a pilot hole to keep the bit straight. It'd probably help to take the bore out a bit at a time, so a drill bit set that goes up in 0.5mm or 1mm incretments would be handy.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter zaibatsu

August 27th, 2002, 04:31 PM

Like Anthony says, the barrel's going to be steel underneath, every(commercial) firearm I know of has at least a steel liner. The steel used in gun barrels is pretty tough, but I've drilled into an old fucked up one with HSS drill bits, it was tough though, but that was with a hand-held power drill, a drill press is recommended. And, like Anthony says, 12" groups at 30yards are shite, how could it possibly be that bad? If it isn't a typo, you got fucked over.

jelly

August 30th, 2002, 05:07 PM

@Zyklon_B quote:Are there no free sources of firearm silencers? I would think so.of course... take a look at the very effective "spud silencer", used by IRA terrorists for oneshot terror tactics :D Spud Silencer [ August 30, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: jelly ]

Deja_W

August 30th, 2002, 10:04 PM

I’m sorry that was a miss print, most barrels are made of stainless steel, not aluminum. Sorry about that. After the initial shake down, I’ve gotten rid of the jamming problem, and I can now get 1.5 group at 50 yards, not 30. I’m told that this will still improve, it has to clear the grooves out before it’ll shoot any better. But I started with a blow back conversion unit, the wrong twist rate (1 in 9 instead of 1 in 12) and the wrong groove diameter. So what can you expect? On top of all that the ammo I was using I’m now told I shouldn’t use (aquilla superhornet) the bullet is two light (20-grain or something like that), and to fast, to be stabilized in the short barrel. So I switched to aquilla .22lr thumper rounds, the 60-grain bullet is effectively stabilized in the barrel, and it’s much quieter. The real advantage to this gun is the fact that in less then sixty seconds I can change the bolt and upper receiver and have my old full power rifle back. Or I can just change the bolt, and I can fire sub sonic .223 out of the silenced barrel. The guy who did the job knew what he was doing, he used hardened steel drill bits that were just sharpened, and after half the holes were done he re sharpened the bit. Again sorry for the confusion, this will teach me to not try to explain anything after working 19 hours straight.

Deja_W

August 30th, 2002, 11:34 PM

The 1.5 is in inches, I just needed to clarify that... -----------------------next time use the edit post function - kingspaz [ August 31, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

zeocrash

October 4th, 2002, 06:18 AM

From what i have researched, you can fit a permenant silencer by drilling holes in the endo of your barrel, sticking a can full of flame retatdent wadding over it. the silencer must be able to be removed as the wadding will burn out eventually for a non permenant one which doesnt scratch your rifle, take your pipe desigh nad put some plasic spacers on, this will mean that it does not scratch your gun -------------------Does the fact that you're dyslexic mean that you can't use a spell check? And you can't realise that you're typing KeWl ShIt? Zaibatsu [ October 04, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]

subsonic

June 2nd, 2003, 09:51 PM

Hi, this is my first post in this forum. Yes, this thread is old - but it was very useful, thanks a lot! In fact it was the reason why I visitied this Forum the first time. Please excuse my poor english. I want to mention that I think the 22LR is underestimated. I just shot through a 2 inch thick Phonebook as if it was butter. If this was a humans head I think it would be pretty lethal. The Walther "P22 target" is a very good choice for improvised supressors (for a .22). The barrel weight can be removed which gives some nice Space to mount a Supressor on it. Ok, some Parts of that Walther are not built for eternity (some screws) and it is also pretty expensive. But it is good when it comes to hit the target precisely. While my SIG P220 just acts like a shotgun the walther has a very good accuracy. I have made a supressor for it and tested it. It works very well. First I used some very slow Z-Lang Ammo, it was very silent, but it gave me some reloading Problems due to the little gas amount (224 m/s). The ballistic Crack Table I found following a link you provided here was VERY useful, thanks again. Then I used some Fiocci MAXAC (315m/s). The crack sound was louder, but the suppressor was still very effective. For the future I think I will buy some Ammo that has around 290 meters per second . BTW: the sonic crack already starts at about 290 and rises up to about 400 meters! so using 329m/s will still produce about a 120 dezibel crack although it flies theoreticly at subsonic speed. you really need this table: http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.html I used an Alu-Tube (200*30mm) containing a big compression Chamber and 4 little chambers. The Chambers were seperated with some "Screw-underlayers" (30*1.7mm, hole 8mm). These Metal-slices are laying on some Keybunch-rings (31mm) which fit very thightly (have to use some brute force to reduce the spirals diameter) into the Tube. On the other side they are fixed with some steel-repair-epoxy that I pressed into the corners/gaps. So one Seperator is a Sandwich of: Keybunch-Ring/ScrewUnderlayer/Epoxy. The sizes of the little Chambers are unregular, between 15 and 20mm. The construction is very stiff and stabile and weights about 180 Grams.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I also used some epoxy to fix a Metalring on the muzzleside that fits exactly on the barrel and has a Screw to fix it. While this epoxy-part was still soft, I used a Rod in the barrel, as someone suggested, to make sure the holes are on the right place(!). As you see, the hole is 8mm, but the .22LR is only about 5mm diameter. So there is 1.5mm Spare Space around the bullet (or the rod). Don't worry, this spare Space does not reduce the silencers efficiency significantly. When I tested it with the 224 m/s Ammo I shot against the ground, a piece of earth, about 10 Meters far away (sorry, I am not familar with "feet"). The loudest Sound I heared was the impact of the bullet when it hit the ground. All parts were bought in a supermarket but the Alu-Tube which was taken from an old vacuum cleaner / hoover. Since Supressors are illegal where I live, i just buried it waterproof in the forest. That's ok, there won't be a kid using it to shoot himself or someting, it's only a strange tube. I know, building a supressor is almost trivial - anyway, I hope this was useful.

Bigfoot

June 2nd, 2003, 11:40 PM

Just in case anyone need a transliteration: screw underlayer = washer

Subsonic, for a "foot" think approximately 1/3 meter. Or, the length of your shoe. But don't worry, write your posts in metric units, we'll all know what you're talking about.

aussie_boy

August 10th, 2003, 11:50 PM

i read of a story in soldiers of fortune a couple of years ago that they legally sold silencers in kit form that was perfectly legal(from what i can remember)and you didn't need a licience i might be wrong but i will try and find out

stickfigure

August 11th, 2003, 01:05 AM

Most everything you buy in a kit can be considered legal. It becomes illegal once you assemble, manufacture, use, etc. To clarify the legal silencer issue silencers are legal in 35 States, D.C. is considered a state in the prohibited list which is composed of the more highly populated and liberal States. www.advanced-armament.com has a list of states and a map that puts it into perspective pretty well. Deja_W did you have it permenantly mounted to your barrel? I would think that a factory made detachable would have been a better choice, cost about the same, been a lot more reliable, and accurate. The AAC M4-2000 would have cost you $625 plus the $200 stamp-tax, also you would have got a factory warranty with it. Anyway, thats probably the one I would invest in. On the .22lr issue, this is the prefered round in use by CIA and other Black-Ops units since WWII. Well placed shots can kill or injure depending on what your purpose is. The .22lr is easy to suppress and commonly available. AWC makes a really nice model based on the Ruger MKII pistol called the Amphibian II and it's made for getting wet and salty, requiring little maintanence afterward. Some of the ideas expressed in earlier replys are rather scary, silencers should be machined and made to exact tolerences. Imagine what would happen if somone tried to silence a .338 Laupa Mag. with a piece of pipe, washers spot welded to the inside and it secured with a couple of bolts drilled into the barrel? Something akin to a 360 degree washer shotgun! Try something small at first BB gun, .22lr and invest in a really nice milling machine w/horizontal and vertical feeds and lathe. In the long run it will be cheaper than medical bills. I know a few people who have tried stupid gun tricks. One of them involved alcohol, a .375 H&H Magnum, a foot, and a few years of physical theropy. Oh, ya and the removal of some floating ribs for bone replacement.:eek: We go big in Montana, Rrreeeaalll Big!!! I don't what to preach but, go if you don't know much about guns, go small. It's a lot less painful

Charlie Workman

August 12th, 2003, 03:14 AM

Stick Figure- What you say about kits is generally true, but not for silencers. At least in the US. The ATF has come down hot and heavy on people caught with silencer kits. Any part that can be used in a silencer counts as illegal possession. Doesn't seem right, but it has stood up in court. Back in the late 70's- early 80's, Shotgun News had dozens of ads for the kits. You could find the tubes a couple of pages away, sold seperately. Hundred bucks or so sent to the two vendors and you had a complete silencer. Designs and effectiveness varied, but I always felt most were overpriced for what you got. Some of the ported barrel .22 kits were pretty sweet, though "To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!" -Gidget

matey

August 12th, 2003, 07:46 AM

any links to some plans for 22 apreciated :cool:

zaibatsu

August 12th, 2003, 09:11 AM

You need to learn the very basic and simple principles of silencers first, and then you can design a reasonably effective silencer for most calibres. I'd check out some pages like this (http://guns.connect.fi/rs/Reflex.html) to give you some ideas.

ozbourne

October 17th, 2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by CyclonitePyro (In various dreams) I experimented with the bottle types, I heated the end of them to make them soft and then shot a hole through it to make a

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perfectly placed hole, they work well but are not practical and are large. I make the silencers for my Ruger 10/22, I also have a Bultler Creek folding stock in it and a scope, and some smaller accessories like an extended mag, release, auto bolt release and bolt buffer. Use subsonic rounds for it, their velocity is just below the speed of sound so the make no sonic boom while flying, that is where most of your sound comes from, I buy 500rd bricks of them and they don't last long with a 50rd clip. The silencer I use now is a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, it slides right on the barrel and has and L shaped notch in it so it can slide on past the sight on the end of the barrel and then you twist in so it locks in place and won't slide off. In the middle of it is a metal washer held in place by small sloped nails and PVC glue, The inner hole of the washer is just right for a .22 bullet. On the end are two rubber grommets held in place by nails and PVC glue. It is painted flat black and looks just like a maufactured silencer and works great. I built it so that neighbors wouldn't complain, and it works well for its purpose. If not for them then I really wouldn't have cared about the noise. It works nice for shooting animals, Cananda Geese for example, one drops, and the one next to it has no freakin idea what happened, where if not for the silencer, the whole flock would have flew away. -----------------"Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide" Can someone post some pics of this type of homemade silencer or send to my email? All the links for pics from the last two years are dead. Anyone form the UK want to try to send me a silencer to Canada from http://www.soundmoderators.co.uk/sak22lr.htm Anyhow worth a try.

DBSP

October 17th, 2003, 04:59 PM

Now what was the point of quoting the hole post? There are basicly no info on the contruction of the silencer itself in that post and it is therefore worthless. There are sufficient info in this thread to get the idea of how a silencer is improvised, I suggest you read it again. And ther is really now idea to post a pic of a silencer, it's just a pieace of pipe. no more no less. The inside of the pipe is whats interesting. I could have posted some pics of my silencer but since my brother got pissed and smashed one of the ends in to tight I can't loosen it without damaging the silencer and revealing the inside of it. So no pics, sorry.

ozbourne

October 17th, 2003, 05:17 PM

Sorry about post ing his whole post but I am new at posting and didnt know any other way. yes the inside is what I needed to see , the 2 nails holding the washer etc....Is there any steel wool or any insulator of any kind needed or is it just air that is trapped with this type of home jobby? I would like to make one so my neighbors wont complain about me shooting rodents on my acreage.

ozbourne

October 21st, 2003, 12:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CyclonitePyro The PVC I found is called Rigid PVC, get the 1/2" It's grey instead of white, I think it's used for electrical stuff, like putting wires through. It makes an almost perfect fit. My dream silencer is 10" long and slides over the barrel so 8" protrudes off the barrel. And yes you're right I used the washer in the center to make two separate chambers. And the grommets go at the end of your silencer, you don't have to use grommets, you could use washers but I found perfectly fitting grommets. And then just make sure you find a way to make them stay in place. -----------------I bought the 1/2 rigid pvc and it seems to fit very tight but does fit with a bit of pressure. What I need to know is what size of washer fits in there? What hole size is a good fit for the bullet? What are grommets? Im going to get one of these to work and this one seems the easiest.

xmarinevet

October 21st, 2003, 01:45 AM

Clog busters sold at hard ware stores for about $8 make ecxellent silencers and work for about 50 shots with 22 shorts. It knocks the muzzle blast off and the sonic crack.

ozbourne

October 22nd, 2003, 10:25 PM

I got one of the PVC silencers to work. The loudest sound now comes from the clank fron the bolt buffer pin. I guess the next thing to do is change that. I got the washers to stay in place by using 2 pvc joiners with a short piece of pvc between them. It actually works great. I also used rubber washers and a plastic bottle cap on the end.

Garbage

November 29th, 2003, 07:22 PM

I have studied silencers for a long time, after hard work I made a good one (picture below). The most difficult thing is to get the correct alignment of the gu ns b arrel a nd the sile ncer, this is VERY important (incorre ct alignment could blow up the silencer). After some experiments I have projected an effective silencer with PVC pipes and steel wool: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/pictures/20.jpg

The military silencers are often many sequential chambers that permit the expansion of the sound blast as the picture shows: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/Su1.1.jpg These silencers have an excellent efficiency. The problem about make it at home, is that you will never achieve the perfect a l i g n m e n t of the suppre ssor s b arrel with the gun without any lo ose, the hole of this silencers have the ex actly d iameter of the projectile stamping the sound and the gas at the chambers. I have tired to make silencers with iron and cupper pipes and I have achieved the same efficiency with PVC pipes, but the iron

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suppressor was too heavy. So I begun to use just light materials like PVC and wood. The truth about the suppressors is that almost anything can silence the noise of a shot. You could use, for example, a plastic bottle tied in the muzzle of the gun with tape. This silencer will work just in the first shot after that it will have a very low efficiency and if you use this sealed silencer in a gun with strong caliber like M4 it will blow up in the first shot. You could also put a pillow in the end of the g un s b arrel this will provide a go od efficiency, but as the first it s d ispo sable. R e v o lvers can t be silenced because the most of the no ise escape b etween the cylinder a nd barre l. Im no t sure if a shotgun can be silenced becau se when the projectiles leave the barrel they open an angle of tra jectory (that s why it s so destructive in small distance). Projectiles that travel faste r than th e sound can t be silenced too. The travel of projectile creates a loud sonic blast. The silencer here is very simple and has a good efficiency: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sup.htm

NickSG

November 29th, 2003, 07:46 PM

Suppressor, not silencer. Shotguns can have suppressors, but becuase of the powerful muzzle blast, coming up with materials that can withstand the pressure but not weigh the gun down is pretty hard. The same goes with high powered rifles. Most shotgun pellets are contained in a small plastic cup. After the cup accelerates 18-24 inches from the muzzle, the cup breaks apart and the pellets are let loose. This makes it possible for a suppressor to be attached to the weapon.

ossassin

November 30th, 2003, 12:37 AM

Well, if the individual projectiles are contained in this cup during the entire flight through the barrel, why does the choke make such a huge difference? The projectiles must try to spread out inside of the barrel. This would mean that they would spread out as soon as they left the barrel, which would make trying to build a supressor for a shotgun very difficult (unless you were using slugs.) This is probably the reason reason why the military NEVER uses silencers on shotguns. NOTE: The term "supressor" means something that lessens the overall report of the firearm. This includes flash and/or audio supressors. The term "silencer," although inaccurate, does prevent confusion. ________________________________________________ My idea is to make one that uses the more modern design with individual chambers. http://www.geocities.com/ossassin2000/ supressor1.gif(Copy and paste.) The tubes would be either metal or PVC pipe. The outter pipe would be fairly wide, and the inside pipe would be just wide enough to accomidate the barrel. The inside pipe would have wide grooves in it, running from the end of the barrel to the front of the supressor. It would have the appearance of 3 or 4 thin bars. This is to allow air to flow out of the pipe and into the chambers. The walls forming the chambers would be curved, and they would be glued on for PVC pipe or welded for metal. The front wall of the supressor would simply be a wall like the others. The internal pipe would NOT continue to the end; it would stop at the second to last wall. The front wall would only touch the external pipe. This is different than the drawing. A threaded end cap would be mounted to the barrel. The external pipe on the silencer would simply screw into it, with the end of the barrel fitting inside of the inner pipe. This design would provide rigidity and keep the supressor from flying off when firing. Garbage, I suggest that you grind a little slot for your iron sights, so that once the supressor is pushed onto the rifle, it can be twisted and locked into place. My samply drawing is NOT to scale. I apologize for the poor quality; I didn't have any CAD programs readily available, so I used paint. :)

NickSG

November 30th, 2003, 01:23 AM

No, the pellets cannot spread until they are out of the cup. The cup prevents them from spreading until about 2 feet in flight, in which the cup opens up freeing the pellets. Shoot at some targets at close range. Inside of one foot you will not see any individual pellet holes becuase the cup has not opened yet. After 2 feet is when you start to see the pellet holes. Otherwise you get one solid hole as if you fired a slug from the gun.

ossassin

November 30th, 2003, 01:39 AM

This is because the "bullets" haven't had time to spread out yet! :rolleyes: They spread out about 1 inch every 10 feet in an 18-inch barrel with an open choke. That's the standard formula for 00 buckshot; it's not exact. You never answered my question. If they stay in the cup for so long without spreading out at all, why does the choke make such a HUGE difference??? I'm sorry, but I think your theory is flawed. (It's an interesting idea, though. You should try making a shotgun round like that.) I added alot to my previoius post. Go back and take a look.

NickSG

November 30th, 2003, 02:09 AM

I do not have an answer about the choke, but ive seen frame by frame what a 12 guage does after its shot (with a high speed camera). If I can find it I will post it. "This is because the "bullets" haven't had time to spread out yet!" Even if there wasnt a cup, you would still find little half circles around the edge of the hole. It wouldnt be a perfectly clean hole.

Garbage

November 30th, 2003, 08:47 AM

That was an excellent idea ossassin, the slot works like a lock for the suppressor, it so good that the band clamp is now

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http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sub1.jpg Some times is a good idea make the barrel go into the external pipe, you can make a long silencer without increase the guns length.

ossassin

November 30th, 2003, 12:54 PM

How could you make a long silencer without increasing the gun's length? It seems like you'd have to port the barrel. I've always wondered how those integral supressors work. I haven't been able to find any sketches. Maybe they have a huge expansion chamber that begins right after the barrel ends and extends to the breach. After that, they would have several smaller, more standard chambers. It's just an idea. Nick: Maybe the reason why chokes make such a huge difference is that they control when the BB's leave the cup. A full choke would help the cup hold its shape as it leaves the barrel, whereas an open choke would allow the cup to widen inside the barrel. Once again, that's just a theory. What did you guys think of my supressor design? Could it work? Should I try it?

PHAID

November 30th, 2003, 01:56 PM

Ossassin a integral supressor normaly uses barrel porting of some kind and is extreamly hard to do unless you have the proper tools to remove all burrs in the barrel. With a little metal working you can make a small slim supressor for a .22 thats quite effective. The overall length was 10 inches with a 1 inch tube and can keep the sound down to the point that you only hear the bolt and bullet impact. As for the shotgun supressors, all the designs ive viewed show them as barrel supressors so the choke and the type of ammo used isnt a major issue.

ossassin

December 3rd, 2003, 01:51 AM

I'm working on a full-sized PVC prototype, and I'm not sure what I should use for the baffles and spacers. I don't have access to machining tools, and I'm afraid that PVC material will burn and melt if I try to shape it with a power-sander. Any suggestions on what material I should use?

NickSG

December 4th, 2003, 05:14 PM

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-c/shotgun-shot-seq-1g.jpg Theres some high speed photographs of a shell going off. Unfortunatly I dont know what size the shot is.

Garbage

December 4th, 2003, 06:01 PM

I think that is possible make a suppressor for a shotgun, but the last end cap must have a bigger hole, because even with the cup occur some spreading, that could destroy the suppressor. It will reduce the efficiency but could work.

ossassin

December 4th, 2003, 08:04 PM

Also, keep in mind that different size shots and different length shells make a huge difference in how quickly the shot spreads. Since the standard tactical load is usually 2 3/4" 00 shot, that's what you should design it for. Of all the possible loads, this is probably the slowest to spread (except for slugs, of course.)

PHAID

December 4th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Why the concern of the shot spread? Just end your supressor even with the barrel, with good porting and a decent wrap to difuse the heat you will get an effective supressor.

Garbage

December 5th, 2003, 11:49 AM

Spreading of the bu llets is nt the only problem the cup could be locked in the ch ambers or in the holes of the in ternal pipe o f the suppressor.

MP5Guy

December 5th, 2003, 04:09 PM

Possession of a Threaded Tube, Baffle or distorted washer is by BATFE ruling and "Note The New E Addition" Explosives, constitutes the possession of a Suppressor. Not MY words folks the New BATFE's and can be a pain in the buttocks. Suppression of a firearm is nothing more than Slowing And Cooling the escaping gasses, remember this... A Can or Muzzle Can will NEVER stop the Balistic Crack of any projectile traveling much over 1100 FPS. You first have to initially Slow the Gasses and now cool them repeatedly to have the makings of an effective Firearms Suppressor, No Questions Asked. How do I know this 40 plus years of trying to find the right conbination. Hey I don't know an Atom from a Bond but I do know Suppressors and there is alot of BS contained above... PVC is an accident waiting to happen. Baffle Strikes are the BIGGEST Factor in the manufacture of a Suppressor. They will HURT you if they happen in a Hi Velocity situation, Trust Me. Slow,Cool this is the principle and that will never change. Keep safe my new friends, Please stay away from PVC. I know that it is strong but pressure is stronger.

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Jacks Complete

December 5th, 2003, 05:25 PM

That photo sequence is very cool. However, it does show quite clearly that the wad starts to expand quite rapidly. It is only about four wad lengths from the muzzle, yet it is clearly already rippling back, and has definately expanded. At that stage, it isn't going to be happy hitting a hole the same size as the barrel! Just make the emd into a nice ramp shape, to squeeze the shot again, or make the hole at the end a bit bigger. Yes, you lose more gas and make it louder, but hell, even commercial silenced shotguns are still audible at 300 meters, despite the vast reduction in noise.

NickSG

December 5th, 2003, 06:22 PM

MP5Guy-Supressors a made even for HV bullets, even for the AR15. Supressors are made to make shooting the gun fun, so you can shoot without ear protection and not blow your ear drums out. Some modern day snipers use supressors on the .308s and .223s. It doesnt get rid of the sonic crack, but it does get rid of most of the muzzle noise. The bullet will make noise its entire journey, so it will be near impossible to tell where the shot came from. This is especially good if your not in your own territory. Now, for the ones that want to commit crimes with their suppressors, make sure to use PVC pipe (no thicker than 1/8 inch) and only use it in high powered rifles. It will completely silence it and noone will know you did it. :D

MP5Guy

December 5th, 2003, 08:18 PM

The sentence that contains the word NEVER in my post..... Either you have failed to read such or you are unaware of how a suppressor functions in detail. One must Firstly have a decent Expansion Chamber and the best have Transfer Ports leading to a Secondary Expansion Chamber. The gas blast in an efficent suppressor has to be upset on contact with the first baffle. This upsetting is effected via the eliptic bevel cut into each secceeding baffle at an angle aprox. 27 degrees off the prior baffle. This effect should run concurrent through the a series of at least 8 baffles. A final Expansion Chamber after the last baffle further cools the remaining blast gas to it's effective temp determined by it's overall length. Here are a couple primers on the subject have you the time to evaulate them. Thank You... PVC is again JUNK with regard to it's use in firearms suppressors as is anything else intended to carry water or waste from your home. Let alone it's propensity to weaken accordingly with each over pressurization. http://www.hunt101.com/img/076968.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/img/076971.jpg

ossassin

December 5th, 2003, 08:31 PM

MP5 Guy, wouldn't PVC work for pistol calibers? I was going to supress a .22, and it seems like PVC would be OK. Not everyone has access to machining tools, you know. I wonder if it's possible to shape PVC material...

Garbage

December 5th, 2003, 08:38 PM

MP5Guy is right, PVC is potentially dangerous when you use it in a gun with a strong caliber. After some time the pipes are fatigued with to many explosions, (the PVC is not made to use in a gun), this also happens with many homemade guns. I thinking about a suppre ssor made o f copper or aluminum p ipes

NickSG

December 5th, 2003, 08:39 PM

Sorry to sound dumb, but what was the point of that post? I read your post, and I clearly stated that "It doesnt get rid of the sonic crack, but it does get rid of most of the muzzle noise". I am aware of how suppressors work and ive built a few of them for an old H&R .22 I had a few years ago. To answer the above question, yes, you can use PVC for a .22, but you should never use any high pressure cartridges with it (in other words, use subsonics). With iron or steel you can use any bullet you wish.

MP5Guy

December 6th, 2003, 04:36 AM

Nick's Quote: "Now, for the ones that want to commit crimes with their suppressors, make sure to use PVC pipe (no thicker than 1/8 inch) and only use it in high powered rifles. It will completely silence it and noone will know you did it".

Nick my post was not to berate you sir just to save some of your extremities from my former misconceptions throughout the years.... Please continue with your PVC suppressors, it will save me the time in posts like this down the road. And Nick NO Suppressor is completely silent, regardless of what you see in movies:rolleyes:

Even though I love the realm of explosives I do not play in their backyard for I would surely hurt myself... Now I'm going to look up the major manufactures of PVC Pipe and buy some stocks... MP:p

xyz Didn't you get the feeling that he might have been being sarcastic? I don't think he really reccomends the use of thin PVC silencers with high powered rifles :) .

December 6th, 2003, 09:01 AM

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December 6th, 2003, 12:36 PM

I too picked up a strong whiff of sarcasm in Nick's post. I suspect that, without mod powers, it is the only way he can thin down the newbies who post stupid shit like "Use a water pipe and a potato on your .50, its well l33t" I have come up with a novel suppressor design for very low pressure loads, using a new type of plastic that melts at below 100 degrees. The idea is, if it is set onto a gun and used, it can then be "destroyed" before leaving, so that no-one can ask questions. Obviously, using it with a rifle or even decent pistol cartridge would screw it right up.

NickSG

December 6th, 2003, 02:44 PM

Thank you guys, I was in fact being sarcastic with the PVC pipe thing. :) However, I was being serious when I said some modern day snipers use suppressors on their rifles. Although you will still hear the shot being fired, the bullet will be traveling great distances while staying supersonic, so without hearing the muzzle blast it would be very hard locating where the shot came from.

xyz

December 6th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Suppressors are also used because they greatly reduce muzzle flash and blast. They make it just about impossible to see the muzzle flash at night as well as reducing the muzzle blast, meaning that the rifle won't kick up as much dust/leaves/whatever when fired from the prone position.

ossassin

December 6th, 2003, 09:28 PM

I'm glad that everyone is finally starting to get it. :) A silencer was not meant to allow a shooter to pick off enemies one by one, leaving the rest entirely unaware of what is going on. They are meant for all-out combat, and they were designed to make it hard to pinpoint the shooter's location. This is why it eliminates the muzzle blast, the muzzle flash, the dust signature, etc. The sonic crack actually gives the shooter an advantage in most cases. Think about it: if a bullet flies right past a target's head, and his line of sight is perpendicular to the bullet's path, he hears the sound on both sides of him. Obviously, he will not be able to tell where the shot came from. On a side note, a supressor is a very effective muzzle break.

7.62mikemike

December 7th, 2003, 04:37 AM

There is a formula for measuring the speed of sound.The speed of sound varies greatly due to change in temperature.Break out the 99 cent calculator. Temperature in F plus 459 = ? The Sq.root of ? X 49.06= the speed of sound For example:Lets say it is 70 degrees F 70F + 459 = 529. The Sq. root of 529 =23 X 49.06 = 1128.38 FPS{Feet Per Second}--The Speed of Sound. The speed gets lower as the temperature drops and higher as it rises.This formula works with any temperature.Give it a try.

xyz

December 7th, 2003, 05:26 AM

There's an even easier way, if it's below 1050fps in normal conditions then it's going to be subsonic in most conditions. The temperature of the chamber and the barrel length have much bigger effects on bullet velocity than the temperature of the day. Altitude also changes the speed of sound.

MP5Guy

December 8th, 2003, 02:33 PM

A small degree. Change anything in these 3 factors and the SOS changes. Most calculations are based on "A Standard Day". That being 59 Degrees F, At Sea Level,Barometric Pressure of 29.92" of Mercury. Temp is although the biggist variable with regard to The SOS. MP

ossassin

December 9th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Why so much concern about the speed of sound? If you're going to make a supressor, It's going to be for one of two reasons: 1. You want to be hard to locate after a shot. For this, you don't need subsonic ammo. The bullet breaking the sound barrier will make things very confusing for everyone around you. Refer to some earlier posts if you're not sure why. 2. You want it to be as quiet as possible. For this, you'll want something like a .22 with subsonic ammunition. This type of setup would be used in situations where you probably won't be engaged in all-out combat. If anyone returns fire, your cover is blown. The military uses silencers for the reason #1. The combination of no muzzle blast, muzzle flash, dust signature, etc. and the sonic crack from the bullet make it VERY hard to pinpoint the shooter or even approximate the direction that the shot came from. Besides, it's nearly impossible to supress most military calibers, anyway.

xyz I only posted the subsonic thing to show that it was not as simple as 7.62mike thought.

December 9th, 2003, 04:48 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter There are some "suppressors" (not really but I can't think of another word) that are being made that don't reduce the sound at all, they just diffuse and redirect it so that the noise appears to have come from all directions instead of just one. This would only be good for making the shooter hard to locate though, not for stealth.

ossassin

December 9th, 2003, 10:02 AM

That's basically what I was talking about before with reason #1. I'm sorry if this isn't what you mean. I'm not trying to waste your time. :) http://www.geocities.com/mr_tack_driver/example.gif Instead of hearing the sound coming from the muzzle blast, where the blue line is, he would hear it coming from the bullet path, where the green lines point. This is why supressors are still very effective on super-sonic calibers. NOTE: You may have to right click the picture and hit "Show Picture" to get it to display.

xyz

December 11th, 2003, 04:21 AM

Yeah, it wasn't what I meant, they don't silence or suppress any part of the noise and the weapon is still every bit as loud as it was before. The difference is that the noise from the weapon is directed off in all directions instead of mostly to the front of the shooter. This causes a kind of "rapid artificial echo" for want of a better word and makes it just about impossible to determine where the shot came from.

Thunden

December 18th, 2003, 10:44 AM

Garbage, I built (in my drems) the silencer you posted,which is great BTW, but I used ceramic wool instead of steel wool and it worked fine...just thought you'd like to know. Thunden

Garbage

December 22nd, 2003, 02:33 PM

I think that any material fluffy and porous could work. I have tired to make suppressors with soaker, tissue paper, wool, and fiberglass mat. Some materials have a better efficiency than others, for me steel wool was efficient enough and was cheap.

PHAID

December 22nd, 2003, 07:01 PM

Steel wool is ok for the short term but it will begin to rust and break down after you fire a couple of shots. Fiberglass insulation works well as does aluminum or brass screen. If your looking for a quick disposable supressor then all you need is some 1" ID PVC along with a 1" OD piece and get some cardboard washers. Cut the 1" OD pvc into 1/2" lengths and make enough cardboard washers to get 3 stacked between each spacer. To get a little better performance you can make the spacers 3/4" and have rolled hardware cloth in each or use aluminum window screen.

ossassin

December 31st, 2003, 06:12 PM

Any ideas on how to attach it to the barrel? My barrel is tapered, so I'm having trouble finding some PVC pipe that will slide onto the barrel snugly. By the way, I'm having some computer problems, so I won't be posting as often as usual until I get it fixed.

PHAID

December 31st, 2003, 07:57 PM

For the mounting you can glue in smaller diameter PVC sections on the mounting end of the supressor to get it close to size then use electrical tape to build up the barrel to the needed diameter to hold the supressor in place. It is a crude method and along with the baffles touching the bullet as it goes through them, Your acuracy will suffer but for close in work its fine.

stickfigure

January 1st, 2004, 04:02 PM

It sound like with all that crap stuff in your PVC pipe and it crammed on the end of you barrel you would be better off using a potato:) Why not take the time to learn how to use a Tap and Ream set and get some quality pipe short and make a good metal suppressor? Geez, people have making them for years in their garages out of metal scraps and they work great. Instead of wasting your time with cardboard and plastic, pick up a good book and read.

PHAID

January 1st, 2004, 04:48 PM

The supressor that was mentioned was an effective gas trapping design that can be quite effective. What is the point of giving descriptions for designs that you need the metal working skills/equipment that most dont have? If you like i can give you the plans for a simple design that takes only a few parts that have to be done on a lathe.

Garbage

January 1st, 2004, 05:22 PM

ossassin If you don t have any pipe with the correct diameter of you r barrel you can put s ome s ilver tape on it. T he tape will increase the b arrel s d iameter sufficient for the pipe. Don t use too m uch tape o r the s uppressor will stay loos e in th e barrel.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter jonesy

January 2nd, 2004, 11:21 AM

Here, in australia one of the most common methods is the oilfilter supressor mention earlier. befor books such as workbench silencers etc, this was the most commom method and depending on which parts of town u were in u might stumble across a filter or to with a hole in the end. Anyways most people just help the filter over the muzzle of the firearm and thus many limbs were lost over the years. Anyways enough on the histroy, a fried of mine a few years back used a large deisel truch oil filter as a basis for his silencer, and through trial and error tried various differant sounddending material in it (after pullingout the origional). He believed that a combination of foam and insulatin with verysmall dash or gun oil was brilliant on his 303 lever action. I think this sounds kinda suss, iv never herd of a liquid working in a supressor??? has any?? Try to make an effort with the spelling/grammar/punctuation, please

PHAID

January 2nd, 2004, 07:52 PM

There are alot of "wet cans" made by most manufactures in the last several years. A short list off the top of my head for the liquids used are. lithium greese urin water penut butter bearing greese Lithium greese is the most popular

ossassin

January 2nd, 2004, 08:13 PM

What is tapping and reaming? Are you saying that I can make a metal supressor without heavy equipment?

PHAID

January 2nd, 2004, 08:53 PM

You could probably farm out most of what you need to a machine shop. The only 2 parts that could be a problem would be the endcaps. The thread on rockets gave me an idea for the baffles that would give you a good story for having them made at a shop. The baffles basicly look like a short rocket nozzel so you can use the excuse that you are a rocket hobbiest who makes their own engines and want some nozzels for your new designs. Its hard to come up with a good story for threaded endcaps though so you will have to find another way to get those made. My material of choice is Al because it machines well and has great thermal properties alon with the light weight. Just remember its 10 years and 100,000 fine for having one even if it doesnt work. When i was a dealer the cost was $3,000 for 3 years on the lisence but that was several years ago.

stickfigure

January 3rd, 2004, 05:52 AM

It's more correct to say a Tap and Die set, sorry. You can easily make a suppressor without heavy equipment. I have a book called Zips, Pipes and Pens it has a picture of a submachine gun that a man made in prison that had a suppressor built into it. One if the most effective suppressors ever made only has a Barrel tube that connects to an end cap and that of course is part of the outer jacket. The barrel tube is drilled and has discs made of a non-flammable material that fills the space between the barrel and jacket. The pistol is the OSS Highstandard which is still used today by US CIA and Black Ops. Suppressors don't have to be fancy. Even if you were to buy a threaded fake supressor 80% of the work is already done just cut it open and drill the barrel, burr it out and fill it with brass mesh filter screen. Ream the end caps and reseal it. It may take you a couple years to learn some basic metal working skills but it will pay off in the long run.

lamar pye

January 3rd, 2004, 07:44 PM

The pictures posted by MP5 guy are the only effective, longlasting and up to date design discussed here so far. What he showed was a version of K baffels originally designed by mickey finn and they are still in use on american MP5's today. The idea is to have a bevel on the baffel surface to redirect the gases into the space created by the cone.....this robs the gasses of energy and reduces the sound of the shot. As far as deburring holes in a ported barrel goes.....use a 1/8 metal ball tip grinder on a dremel tool to take down the sharp edges......And unless you want a throwaway can don't use plastic pipe, leave the plumbing to the plumbers

ShadowAlchemist

January 7th, 2004, 01:49 AM

My question is for CyclonitePyro..One thing with your method that doesnt seem right, is your silencer has no form of packing in it. I do realize that .22 rifles dont have an abundance of muzzle energy, but i would have thought that more would be required to muffle the 'crack'. Most designs i have seen for silencers have some form of insulated packing to keep noise to a minimum, but on the other hand I also have no reason to doubt what you say is true. Therefore: How does the suppressor cope while firing successive shots? Can you estimate the number of shots fired through a single unit before it bit the dust; They are temporary right? Have you had any problems with the washer shifting after continuous useage? Therefore obstructing bullet path :( Have you observed a noticable decrease in accuracy and/or range. Have you tried testing different types of ammo? HV, subsonic etc. If so have you noted obvious Db level variations, accuracy comparisons and/or stopping power? I hope you dont mind the questions, but thou who has tried and tested a device, will surely know if the device can last the test of time :) I also believe that mass production follows research and development. Not vice versa ;) The PVC pipe you are referring to is called conduit and is typically used for sheilding electrical cable. Unfortunately I only have ORANGE conduit in my possession....DOH!

xyz

January 7th, 2004, 04:52 AM

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Errr... the crack that you are referring to is the noise of the bullet breaking the sound barrier and no matter how good your silencer is you won't get rid of this. The only way to get rid of it is to slow the bullet below the speed of sound or (the easier way) use subsonic ammunition. This is also the reason why it is unwise to use HV ammo with a silencer if you are silencing a calibre that is almost subsonic (ie you won't lose much energy by making it subsonic). The purpose of a silencer is simply to slow down the speed at which the gases escape from the firearm, sure, packing helps to do this, but packing isn't a neccessity in a silencer (think coke bottle silencer). A lot of people here don't like it when a newbie turns up asking questions left right and centre without searching for the answers themselves. The other thing that people don't like is being asked to perform tests on things. If you wan't those questions answered, why not make one and do the tests yourself? Obviously, the durability etc. of the silencer is going to depend on the materials and how well it was made.

NickSG

January 7th, 2004, 12:24 PM

If any of you were to actually make a suppressor, the best load IMHO is Aguilas 60 grain LRN. It uses the same amount of powder (but with a shortened case) as regular HV loads, but because of the heavy 60 grain bullet, the velocity out of a rifle is about 950 FPS. Despite low velocities, this bullet has nearly 40 FPE more muzzle energy than standard subsonic loads and at 100 yards keeps 30 percent more energy than standard subsonic loads. Its high sectional density gives this load more penitration than most of the other rounds out there. The drawback to this load is a 1:9 barrel must be used to get the bullet to fully stablize. Its still decently accurate in my M60 however (1.5 inch five shot groups at 25 yards). Edit: Tests show it will penitrate 23-25 inches in ballistic gel at 200 meters, close to what a .45 FMJ will get at three feet

ShadowAlchemist

January 7th, 2004, 11:20 PM

This reply didnt get off to a good start. For one i somehow didnt realize that this thread had 4 pages(only read 1) and 2, I didnt mean to offend anyone. Xyz, Believe me i would love nothing more than to test out a suppressor on my own firearm and to record the results...the only problem is that i dont own a firearm! To be perfectly honest, guns are not my forte. But as you have probably noted by now, I am extremely interested in the concept, hence the numerous questions :)

DimmuJesus

January 8th, 2004, 04:44 AM

It is very true that without using subsonic ammo you cannot completely silence a firearm. But it has also been pointed out that depending on what you are using a suppressor for, it may not be completely necessary. One use that hasn't really been mentioned yet is that suppressors can save your hearing! They are often referred to as "a gentlemen's accessory." They can be used to spare the ears of everyone around the fired shots. For this purpose it is not necessary to completely silence a shot. For a shot as quiet as possible with the use of a suppressor, go subsonic. Many types of .22 subsonic ammunition have been made mention in this thread. I myself have ordered some 22LR 60gr Aguila SSS rounds. The .22 is the most popular because it is the easiest to silence. However there has not been as much mention about the .45 cal bullet. For more power, although more difficult to construct a suppressor for, the .45 is the way to go. Most .45 ammunition is already subsonic to begin with. I would like to someday own a silencer for a 1911 pistol. There are many places to get threaded barrels for them. Most of you already know all of this I'm sure, but this is directed to those who have mentioned they are fairly new to firearms reading this thread. I hope this will help out those of you new to firearms as some basic working guidelines.

NickSG

January 8th, 2004, 05:23 PM

DimmuJesus- Unless you have a long pistol barrel (5+ inches) 95 percent of .22LR loads wont get over subsonic speeds. The .45 is actually pretty hard to supress, despite its slow velocities (about 830 FPS with standard pressure FMJ loads). Theres many more times as much powder in the .45, so unless you make your supressor pretty large, it wont be near as quiet as a .22.

xyz

January 8th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Shadowalchemist, How come you now say you don't own a firearm yet in the armoured car thread you posted this? I myself have setup a business which 'says' i professionally exterminate wild pigs and pests etc, Which means i have now obtained my class D&H firearm licence....mwuhahaha It also means i now own several semi-auto centrefire rfles, selfloading shotguns and many many semi pistols.Every democracy has its loopholes One of those two statements is obviously bullshit so you are either trying to be cool by saying you have lots of guns, or you are being lazy and saying you don't have any so that someone else will test the silencer.

DimmuJesus

January 9th, 2004, 08:26 AM

Nick-I had never actually heard that about .22 amuntion and 5+ inch barrels. I had always thought that standard .22 amunition was always supersonic. But hey, you learn something new everyday. However, quite a few .22 pistols do have 5 inch or greater barrels. Especially since so many are made as target pistols. In my experience I've seen more long than short (probably why I didn't notice the subsonic rule you pointed out). The .22 pistol I own (Walther P22) is only 3.5 inches, but even it can be bought as or converted to a 5 inch barrel. Granted the .45 is harder to suppress than the .22, but it still can be done pretty effectively. I believe it is a granted that the suppressor will be pretty large, for it is a larger caliber gun with a larger frame. I'm going to post a link to a video clip of a Walther P22 with a suppressor and an HK USP Tactical .45 with a suppressor. Both are being fired, and the .45 isn't a whole lot louder than the .22. Also the suppressor on the .45 isn't really all that big, at least in my opinion. http://www.subguns.com/ATAS/movies/ATAS45small.mpg

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter ShadowAlchemist

January 9th, 2004, 09:00 AM

Hehehe it seems someone has caught on to my deceitful behaviour. Xyz, what leads you to believe that only one of those statements is bullshit? I realize they contradict eachother, but if you were looking at it from my point of view, would that be a good thing...or a bad thing? To answer that question you will need to understand what i have to gain from running my mouth about the guns, or what i stand to lose? Tis an interesting scenario which was created from un-orthadox behaviour & therefore the subject had to be put to sleep upon re-entry. ;) Dont be mislead, I am merely thinking of the bigger picture :)

DimmuJesus

January 9th, 2004, 10:06 AM

What exactly is that supposed to mean? What could you possibly have to gain by not being truthful to a group of people you've never met, nor will you possibly ever meet? I think more importantly, what does this forum have to gain from all of this? Or is this just your humorous way of saying "I'm busted, you got me, I'm blushing with embarassment?"

NickSG

January 9th, 2004, 05:27 PM

From a 3 inch barrel, my .22LR loads gets about 950 FPS, 100 FPS less with a 2 inch barrel. From a 4 inch barrel, it gets just over 1000 FPS, and from a 6 1/2 inch barrel it gets just over 1100. BTW the ammo used was Federals Lighting RNL ammunition.

Chemical_burn

January 31st, 2004, 01:52 AM

Anthony- I have given it a lot of thought and I am thinking of moding my .22cal air rifle to fire .22cal blanks which I will use to push 15gr airrifle pellets or possibly even fireing .22 shorts or even .22LR's but not sure if the chamber will take the pressure repeadily. Does anyone have any information on the amount of pressure a .22cal breach is rated at or the adverage pressure created buy a .22cal short,LR,and Mag. Also does anyone have any information on converting a .22cal air rifle to a .22cal rifle. Mines a breach load single shot non repeating rifle that is spring powered. Im going to add a fireing pin slightly off center of the breach so it comes in contact with the rim of a .22cal round. So if anyone has any information it would greatly be appriciated.

charger

January 31st, 2004, 02:23 PM

I wouldn't try firing 22 rimfire ammo out of an airgun barrel. The barrel's diameter is 0.217- to 0.218-inch whereas a rimfire barrel is 0.222- to 0.223-inch, not much difference, but i wouldnt want to try. I got the numbers from http://www.airgun1.com/ articles/the_22_cal.html just in case you wanted to read more on this

Ansgar

January 31st, 2004, 04:01 PM

Chemical_burn What you can do is carefully take off a projectile from a .22 round without deforming it too much. Then you insert the projectile into the air-rifle barrel and push it trough with a cleanning rod. I did just that with a Diana (German) air-rifle barrel. It was tight in the beginning but when the lead had forged into the rifling the rest of the passage was very smooth. I examined the projectile closelty afterwards and found that the rifling had made very well defined sharp markings and that the maximum diameter outside the projectile was slightly smaller than an unfired projectile. Thus the entire projectile has been deformed a bit. After that I made a chamber with a 1:50 honing tool just deep enough that it would accept the entire cartridge and testfired it a few times. - Again examining both the barrel and the projectiles. It worked just fine and since then I have fired litterally hundreds of shots of subsonics as well as high velocities. No problems at all. By the way - I think the max pressure in .22 weapons is rated to about 1800 bars but I'm not sure. Take care

MP5Guy

February 1st, 2004, 01:42 AM

Remember these 2 words SLOW And COOL... That is it and ALL you are trying to do. Each time you redirect the expanding gases through one more cycle of this the more efficient your suppressor will be. PVC,Duct Tape,Glue,Cardboard,Fluffy Insulation,Toilet Paper?? Maybe for Barbie's Playhouse... Lamar And Stick obviously know what a Suppressor has to be constructed of to be both efficient and durable. A pillow is more effective than any of the Junk Drawer Devices I've heard discussed here to date. Read, get a book on suppressor design,learn how to use basic hand tools before you shoot off your mouth in a Public Forum and inform even the most casual observer that you know nothing about the construction of an effective suppressor or even the mere principals involved... And by the way the 60 Gr Aguila SSS .22 RF Round will NOT stabilize using Std .22LR barrel twist rate thus making it even more prone to baffel strikes. Don't Put Your Eye out.

NickSG

February 1st, 2004, 01:52 AM

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The 60 grainers dont stabilize well, but they do not tumble. At 25 yards, the groups are less than 1 inch larger. They work well on the local yotes, and probably as well on humans. They give deep penitration as well as tumbling (in flesh). The only drawback to this ammo is its price and availabilty.

ossassin

February 1st, 2004, 02:03 AM

Mp5 Guy, many of us have very limited resources. I don't exactly have a machine shop, you know. Is there a feasible way to make a durable supressor without one? I haven't heard one mentioned...

Chemical_burn

February 1st, 2004, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the link charger. What would you recomend on trying the blanks to achieve high FPS. Its not that I cant get a secent .22cal rifle its just that I have some wierd fasination with converting this .22cal airrifle to one :) Ohh well if all else fails I will just rebuild the seals in it and possibly replace the main spring with a stronger.

charger

February 1st, 2004, 02:08 PM

The only pellet gun I have ever owned had a very strong barrel that would probably withstand pressure from a 22 blank from a starter pistol, but I wouldn't recomend trying to use ramset blanks. But this would depend heavily on the quality of the gun in general. if the gun feals cheap overall (in handling, loose pieces, etc) I would not even try a blank. But then again I am a strong believer on the better safe than sorry rule.

MP5Guy

February 1st, 2004, 02:36 PM

Surely a Quality Hacksaw is in the relm of every man as are Files and Squares. Flea Market if your really on a tight budget. And while there one might want to look for a very modest Hand Tap Set.... Time and a will to learn are free and cost less than a roll of Wet Toilet Paper. The Industry Standard for .22 RF Rifling is 1:16 for a 35-40 Gr. Projectile. To stabilize a 60 Gr. Projectile you are going to need a Twist Rate of 1:8 to 1:9.5. With the Std 1:16 Twist Rate accuracy is going to run past 2-4" Grouping at 50 Yds IF the rifling was cut with a Sharp Broach or Button. If it was done with a Dull Broach or Button expect this grouping to open up another 11.5". In a 1:16 Twist Rate the projectile has almost completed 1 revolution before leaving the barrel. Notice I said Almost because the chamber has stolen almost 1" in chamber length of the overall 16" in length. Now cut the same 1:16 Twist Rate Barrel down to 2" which means that it is lucky to see 1/16 revolution with rifling cut with a sharp tool. It does not take a Phd to see that Stabilization will unlikely be imparted to the fired projectile and it Definately will KEYHOLE at 25Yds. With this said what do you think the chances are of a Baffle Strike in an Intergal Suppressed Ruger MKll with 2" of effective barrel and the series of pressure differentials it goes through before leaving the end of the suppressor??? You Be The Judge I Be The One That Has Seen It. http://www.hunt101.com/img/092822.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/092821.jpg

NickSG

February 1st, 2004, 05:14 PM

Ok, but I never fired them out of a 2 inch barrel. They were from the 19 inch barrel of my Marlin 60. Sorry if I didnt point that out. Anyway, out of a 2 inch barrel, you can use any load you want, since they will all be subsonic. Ill stick with the 19 inch barrel in any situation however.

ossassin

February 1st, 2004, 06:55 PM

I'm not sure if MP5 Guy's mention of a hacksaw was in reply to what I said or not. Is it possible to make a durable silencer without heavy equipment? (i.e. a machine shop) We've talked about lots of ideas using PVC, cardboard, etc. etc. It sounds like all of the metal ones require speciality tools, though.

PHAID

February 1st, 2004, 07:14 PM

Yes it is possible to make a durable silencer without a machine shop. What you have to consider is the caliber you want to silence. The weapon you plan to mount it to. Also the amount you need it to silence the weapon. And lastly how long do you need it to last. The larger the caliber the harder it is to make and it also gets much bigger. For your standard .22 weapons they are easy and cheap to make with simple hand tools.

MP5Guy

February 2nd, 2004, 01:14 AM

Here is a given example of some NO Machine Inards that my Cat could cobble out along with some sites you might want to research. None of which sell Duct Tape,Toilet Paper and the likes... http://www.onlinemetals.com/

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http://www.engineersedge.com/ http://www.hillmans.nu/

:eek: Easy Project For Any Cat With Access To A C Cell MagLite... http://www.hunt101.com/img/072069.jpg

Beethoven_1983

February 2nd, 2004, 04:09 AM

Excuse my ignorance...But could the noise from a 50.cal precharged pneumatic airrifle be silenced? I mean, afterall, 12 bar become a lot of air (In volume) outside the barrel,creating a loud "WHIZZ" kind of sound. One of the rifles at pyramydair.com got a hybrid-barrel\crossed silencer and barrel...What are this doing to the velocity at the muzzle? I could imagine that the velocity are being greatly reduced? And would the velocity in any airrifle exceed the speed of sound? (If you're not charging your chamber with helium,or hydrogen,hehe...or another gas with lower density than air)

Omogen

February 2nd, 2004, 07:15 PM

It seems like there are a big interest in silencers here so i was thinking about uploading the "homemade and improvised silencers" video from aquilifer publications which was recommended by some forummeber here a while ago in a post. It´s aproximately 45 minutes and covers 3 different silencers and shows the results in various tests with dB levels etc. So if there are some interests in this one i could up it. Gotta check since it´s around 250 megs and was mildely expressed: "a pain in the ass" to download from the Overnet p2p software. I also leeched some other aquilifer publications like the homemade firearms video for example which is almost as big as the silencer video but is lesser of interests, atleast for me since they use pretty exotic equipment in that manual which i think most of us haven´t got stacked up at home. Anyways, Show your interests and I´ll start uploading.

ossassin

February 2nd, 2004, 09:40 PM

Beethoven, yes, you should be able to supress it, and, no, I've never heard of an air rifle breaking the sound barrier. That video sounds great, Omogen! Too bad some of us were refused FTP access...

DimmuJesus

February 3rd, 2004, 03:57 AM

You can get ahold of both of these files and others here: http://www.varkoume.com/shared/index.php?usr=Aquilifer88 You will need eMule, eDonkey, or Overnet to download these through P2P. As Omogen said, it can sometimes be a pain to download. I downloaded the silencer video, however, in less than a day.

zaibatsu

February 3rd, 2004, 05:26 AM

Air rifles (mostly PCPs) can break the sound barrier, although they can be innaccurate at long range, I think this is due to the supersonic wave hitting the pellets as the decelerate.

Ansgar

February 3rd, 2004, 05:41 AM

zaibatsu Did you actually measure muzzlevelocities from an airrifle to exceed the speed of sound ? Because I can't understand how a gas (in this case atmospheric air) should be able to move anything, including a pellet, faster than it can move it's own shockwave. I can understand it when you have a continous supply of energy and thus heat like in a jet engine or in a normal firearm. But when a gas is just expanding and moving itself, either by precompression or by a spring piston - I can't imagine that it, nor anything it touches, can move faster than the speed of the shockwave (sound). I myself have never measured any airrifle to exceed the speed of sound. But then again, I have not had access to any of the modern larger airrifles.

Beethoven_1983

February 3rd, 2004, 06:02 AM

But would the 50.cal projectile be bounced off-course of the supersonic wave? I heard that the microscopic mass of the 4,5 mm pellet would be accurate until the velocity lowers to sub-sonic. (A few meters) And thats because its no use with the standard BB-caliber\4.5 mm in supersonic muzzle-velocities...But...would the same aerodynamics interfere with the 50.cal accuracy?? (The 50.cal pellets comes upto 275 grains in weight-4.5.mm comes in 0.9-12.0-13.0 grain, I'm not sure what this is in grams)

ossassin

February 3rd, 2004, 10:08 AM

Thanks, Dimmu! There is some great stuff on that site! It looks familiar. Has it always been P2P?

DimmuJesus

February 3rd, 2004, 01:49 PM

Yes, most of it has always been P2P. This is the same person who authored the White Resistance Manual. Alot of his stuff keeps popping up on P2P and FTP servers. It's been awhile since I've seen anything new from him, and slowly one by one sites hosting his content keep disappearing. Wonder what's going on...

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter zaibatsu

February 3rd, 2004, 02:28 PM

I read it in a report in an airgun magazine. I don't see how they could have got a high ft/lb with avergage weight pellets other than a high muzzle velocity, breaking the sound barrier.

NickSG

February 3rd, 2004, 05:20 PM

Its true that some air rifles can break the sound barrier, although im not familar with any in PCP. The PCP ones ive seen are usually big bore, and are meant to push heavy bullets a lot slower than the lightweights. The spring piston ones are usually the ones that break the sound barrier. I used to own a Gamo that got 1250 FPS with 7 grain and under pellets. I cant remember what model it was, but I clearly remember hearing the "crack" as I shot it off. The thing isnt fun to cock though. Despite what some people say, the thing was actually pretty damn accurate. At 25 yards I could easily get groups less than 1 inch in diameter (5 shot), but out to around 50 yards the pellets were keyholing. It could still hold 3 inch groups at 50 yards however. As far as I know, none of the .50 caliber airguns can get supersonic, but I could be wrong. When they do, they are less effected but changing to subsonic becuase of their heavy weight. .177 pellets, which usually weigh 7-12 grains (about 1/2 gram) arent as heavy and arent as stable when hit by the wave. This usually cuases them to tumble and keyhole.

Jacks Complete

February 5th, 2004, 06:00 PM

All bullets are affected by the change in shockwave when transitioning through the sound barrier. Either start subsonic, or keep it supersonic. There is no other way to be accurate! As for how can an air rifle break the speed of sound? Simple. The speed of sound is related to the temperature and presure of the air. The temperature and pressure of the air pushing the pellet is higher than that surrounding the gun (gas temps rise as pressure goes up) so you can do it!

charger

March 21st, 2004, 08:35 PM

I was looking around and came across adapters for shotguns at http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp? chrProductSKU=881160&chrSuperSKU=&MC= and i was wondering if the centre fire adapters could be used to make a silenced firearms, using the shotgun barrel as a silencer tube and a specially made choke tube (reduced in size to a mm or so wider than the bullet) as the endcap. With these in place, you now have a silencer tube about 20" long. You can then add internals if they are needed, but the mere size of the tube should significantly reduce the sound.

zaibatsu

March 21st, 2004, 08:54 PM

Interesting idea, but I have to question whether such a short "barrel" could stabilize the bullet sufficiently. Problems would occur if it couldn't as it would hit the endplug, ripping it out.

charger

March 21st, 2004, 09:23 PM

One could possibly make their own adapter like this, it shouldnt be too hard to do on a metal lathe, but make it a bit longer maybe a 5 inch barrel and rifle it by inserting a barrel liner. I think that might stabilize it enough so theres no problems with hitting the endcap

zaibatsu

March 21st, 2004, 11:18 PM

Oh, of course, you could take a commercial prechambered barrel, cut say 6" off from the chamber side and turn to fit the dimensions of a 12g cartridge. But I figured that might change the idea of a simple silencer. However, it would make criminal investigations a little harder, as you could use the shotgun with "silencer" and pistol calibre insert, and throw them both away after any activity, and there would be no permenant mods to the shotgun.

Bigfoot

March 23rd, 2004, 04:04 PM

Charger, Zaibatsu: Do it right, that trick will work better than you might think. In fact, I've seen such a setup using a flare pistol as the platform. All components were off-the-shelf: flare pistol, flare adapter, 12 ga. to .22LR or 9mm adapter. Film can on the muzzle completes the setup. Duct tape. Copper wool for the 9mm. Those 12 ga adapters can be had in steel. The Numrich ones are aluminum. One adapter was modified with a hacksaw. SWIM made it according to PMJB vol 2., added to design.

Ropik

April 23rd, 2004, 07:16 AM

I am just uploading Hayduke silencer book now. I have only parts 2 and 3, but all planes are in these parts and I can figure out that none of us should be too sad without the chapter "Some neat thing that you can do with silencer" which was basically wrote to explain you that you can turn off the pesky street lights with silenced .22 and without chapter "You last chance to be legal" which explains how you can legalize your silencer. Go on and happy (quiet) shooting! I hope that you enjoy this book. ;)

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter coolbig2

April 26th, 2004, 08:18 AM

Before anyone yells, I don't want to completely anilate it, it's not possible, I just want to reduce it.If anybody can help me with this, email me at [email protected] THANKS!!

Spotter

May 8th, 2004, 10:12 AM

I have build a Zip Gun that works with cal. 6 mm long blank and 4,4 mm Airgun Pellets. I also build a Silencer. I was very suprised when i fired the First Time. a Lot of Power and very low Noise. But i used good Tools and a Lathe. If anyone will see some Pictures of this thing, will will make some and show them here. Ahm, sorry for my Bad Englisch. i came from Germany. MFG Spotter: Signing your posts is not permitted! NBK

john_smith

May 10th, 2004, 07:59 AM

A theoretical question. Would a non-concentric (in fact, more like box-shaped) suppressor work? I'm thinking a small 22 auto, with silencer body being flush with the top of the slide (so that sights can be used) but extending back and down all the way to trigger guard, and maybe 2-3 inches forward of the guns muzzle. Basically the goal would be a concealable silenced pistol no more bulky than a normal 9mm service auto. One problem I can think of would be the different rate of gas bleedoff and pressure above/below the bullets path so it may become destabilized or knocked off course, however, a longer ported barrel reaching almost to the end cap should solve it...I think. Are there any other reasons why it wouldn't work?

Narkar

May 10th, 2004, 06:02 PM

no need for it to be box-shaped. The mother of all silenced firearms - De Lisle carbine had an off-centre silencer. It looked like ordinary but the barrel ran near the top end so the iron sights could have used. It might be a problem when you just make baffles, but De Lisle had ported barrel instead, baffles outside, so the ported barrel still held the bullet on its path. Baffles were outside of it.

Bigfoot

May 11th, 2004, 01:41 AM

At least one of the old commercial Maxam designs was non-concentric. Probably for the same reason.

teshilo

May 14th, 2004, 08:25 AM

Book Silencers: patterns and principles vol 2(Iupload it to forum ftp) contain nice info how silence you own full auto smg; UZI,MAC etc... As disposable silencers and for reduce noise they used baffled bags, may be this simple canvas or plastic bags inserted one in one.This bag may used as shell trap.

john_smith

May 17th, 2004, 09:39 AM

One reason for it to be box-shaped was concealability. A round can, even if it sits lower, is still kinda bulky. I thought about making it not (much) wider than the gun itself, with most of the silencers volume and bulk being under the barrel. Or more exactly, a short, small diameter baffle assembly forward of the muzzle like it normally would be, and an initial expansion chamber situated below the barrel. OTOH, the Chinese Type 67 (www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Chinese67.PDF) pistol uses a cylindrical can and is pretty small enough, so probably it could be done the normal way as well...

zaibatsu

May 17th, 2004, 12:08 PM

Mounting a supressor on a pistol in the same way that the Chinese have done in this pistol (if I'm thinking of the same one) is going to be tricky. I guess it depends on the type of .22 you were considering, but if I was making a pistol designed to be concealable I would start with something like a .22 version of a PPK with the recoil spring being wrapped around the barrel or underneath, this being in contrast to something like the Ruger .22 pistol which uses a bolt I think. The reason for this is that I think although during the firing cycle a slide will extend outwards, increasing the length, but however when concealed will have a smaller OAL. But, with a suppressor, you would encounter sealing problems IMO trying this method, also increased heat transferred to the barrel, as I assume the supressor would be along the majority of the length of the barrel. Therefore I think to keep the pistol small enough to be concealed, you would have to try to work on some sort of dual-recoil spring method, like an AK. Otherwise you'd basically have a large .22 machine pistol.

mark151

May 19th, 2004, 09:33 PM

Hey guys. Haven't posted in a while since I missplaced my last account(regular mark.) Anyway, I've been looking online for a while and found this hillarious little .22 deringer kit. Now, I have held off on buying the thing because a) the thing is single shot b) it has no saftey c) I had no logical use for it(I own a 10/22) But now, I've got to sceaming about slapping a silencer onto the little devil, and I was wondering what yall think. Is the pistol just to ridiculous? Would it be possible to sillence such a dimunitive firearm? Would it even be effective? Is the thing just an accident waiting to happen? And finally, could the barrel be lengthened? http://www.gunsnstuff.net/FAC/002.asp Thanks, Mark

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May 20th, 2004, 12:59 AM

I have fired .22 subsonic shorts (CB's??). All I have to say is that although you can easily hear the delay between the gun being fired and the lead hitting the target (really slow), the upside is that the actual firing makes almost no noise. (You actually hear the pin hitting the cartrige). Makes less noise than my air rifle does. Would be perfect for city use.... Also I had a dream once where I went to Home depot and bought a few of the standard water pipe fittings. Then connected the puetogether (since threads on them all connect nicely). Tools used were pretty simple: a grinder, steel wool, and a thread making set) luckily the .22 in the dream alrady had its barrel threaded on the end... so it was just a matter of finding the right threading tool to connect the silencer on. (used many things in it to reduce the noise, like cardboard baffles, steel wool, "great stuff" foam, smaller tube with holes in it etc.) Now it did reduce the noise some what, and 1 shot was almost soundless. But there were also complete failures (big loss in accuracy, absolutely no sound reduction). So all in all it was only slightly effective. And since I don't need to be quiet when shooting, I sort of gave up on the project. I'd post pics of the dream but should suffice to say that it looked like a pipe bomb but with a tube running down the middle, a hole on either end, and one end threaded to fit threads on rifle. (overall size about 6 inches. diameter slightly larger than the diameter of a 12 gauge shell). Findings: .22 not worth trying to silence especially since you have all the different types of ammo for them.

#93

August 20th, 2004, 01:33 PM

I own 3 silencers two .22 integral, these bleed off gas to keep regular ammo subsonic, and one 9mm screw on can. Some general rules of thumb on silencers are · The more volume the more noise reduction. · For 2 cans with the same amount of volume a longer can with more baffles will be quieter. · Use of an ablative quiets most. Putting some oil. Shaving cream, KY jelly near the barrel end of the can absorbs some sound. The silencer works by taking the heat, volume, & speed away from the gasses leaving the muzzle. When an ablative is used the gasses evaporate it using a lot of energy depleting the amount of noise. (not on centerfire rifle caliber silencers) · Baffles that are cone shaped are more effective than flat ones. The point of the cone should point at the muzzle. My .22 cans are about an inch in diameter and 8 inches long with baffles about an inch to 1.5 inches apart but these are professionally made, efficient silencers larger for a home build would be recommended. As already stated use subsonic bullets. The sonic crack is nearly as loud as a .22 rifle being fired. This is my first post, I hope it is helpful. #93

guerrero

August 23rd, 2004, 01:22 AM

I think a very good gun to combinine with a selfmade silencer is the old russian (or belgian) 7 rd 7.62 Nagant revolver. During WW II the german secret service used such models with very good results. It is a quiet cheap gun now. The cartridge is a low pressure one and the bullet energy is comparable to the 32 auto. The advantage in comparison to a pistol is, that there does not exist any noise of repeating and the cases aren´t ejected.

john_smith

August 26th, 2004, 05:59 AM

The Nagants bullet energy is actually more comparable to 32 H&R Magnum (slightly below 300J). There's also a more modern revolver using the same principle, TOZ - something (TOZ 34 I think, but not quite sure), in both 7.62 Nagant and 32 S&W, but its probably not much better than the original Nagant.

raptor1956

August 28th, 2004, 07:36 PM

I heard a rumour once of a shotgun using a silencer made out of a "Franz" truck oil filter. They use 2 rolls of oil soaked toilet paper as an element, so it would have been quite big & bulky, but it apparently cut the noise level by more than half. Anyway, it's an idea worth experimenting with.

achmeinaugen

November 11th, 2004, 07:08 PM

I just found this site from a recommendation from a friend. I have been very involved with firearms for more than ten years, and can probably lend some insight to some of you. First I must thank MP5guy for setting the twist rates for 22s correctly. If you want a 22 can, that is going to be quiet, there are few things that you will need. 1. You will need your barrel threaded if you ever plan on taking it apart. Most of the attachemtn systems I have seem for improvised cans are ineffective or else loosen up and blow off the gun. Superglueing and tube connectors (the adjustable metal rings) leave large gaps for gas to escape. 2. You will need to make the endcaps and the sleeve of the suppressor. As stated endcaps are hard to make yourself, nad you need to be very sly to get them made from a machine shop. In most home builds these are the weakness, take your time in making them, and make sure that fit exactly into your sleeve. The sleeve is not a problem, as most peope can order a tube of some inner and outer diameter to their preferance. For a 22, I would suggest a tube of at least 6", and if you want to use aluminum, get 40xx with T6 heat treatment or better. 3. Your entire assembly needs to be able to withstand at the very least 5000psi over the exiting gas pressure of the cartridge you intend to use 4. Baffles. A sleeve of the same diameter of your host barrel is going to degrade accuracy and only give you marginal suppression. A person can make good baffles from the washers that are intended to be put in hole in engine block (freeze washers?) They are available in 1/2" 3/4" etc. They arleady cone with a hole that is exactly centered, you only need to ream to the correct size. In all suppressors, the baffles are marginally bigger than the projectile, but since this is a home build, I would

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recommend a hole at least .30" clearance between your suppressor and the center of the bore of the barrel. For centering this, one can buy a metal rod that is just undersize for you barrel and stick it in your barrels while aligning, and if so desired, get another shorter rod about 12" and the outer diameter of the interior of you baffles, and use those as a guide. All that needs to be done is to dremel or, if you have it, use a lathe to make them conical (about a 30 degrees or better pitch). depending on the worksmanship, you will want between 7 and 10 of these in your suppressor. 22s do not require very elaborate baffles to suppress effectively, like 9mm, 45, or rifle suppressors. 5. Attachemtn of the baffles to the suppressor tube. You will need at the bare minimum of a very good soldering iron, I recommend a welder of some sort (just make sure your welder will work with the material of both metals you are welding ei. do not use a MIG with aluminum). Yuo will want an expansion chamber of about 1" on a 22, you can decrease that if you want, I really don't know what works best here. Then place the baffles in increasing intervals (the first one close the the secons, the third a bit farther from the second, etc.) There you go, you now have a very decent suppressor that has been tested. I am in IN, and paid the tax stamp to make one, and it is good for about 25-29dB reduction. Different brands of ammo act differently with different suppressors, try different loads to get the best of whatever you are looking for. When i have the tiem again, I will type another post about rifle suppressors, and try to find a host for some pictures to make what I have said more clear.

Jacks Complete

January 10th, 2005, 07:28 PM

Raptor1956, cutting the sound level by half is only a 3dB reduction, and you can do better than that with a condom over the muzzle! achmeinaugen, you can weld aluminium, just clamp a thin bit of steel to either side, and take it easy, doing small spot-type welds.

Man Down Under

January 6th, 2008, 08:43 PM

Old thread, but the most relevant one to what I found. (I UTFSE. :)) The things I found most interesting was the use of lithium grease and .380 in a 9MM. Formatting is original source: http://guns.connect.fi/rs/mxgraaf.html vvvvvvvvvvvvv Minireflex Sound Moderator is primarily a muffler of excessive noise; also known as "semi-silencer". Silencing effect is, however, available in full extent just by use of subsonic cartridges. "Ballistic crack" or "whiplash noise" of bypassing bullet is unavoidable evil, if flight velocity of bullet is as high as velocity of sound in air at ambient temperature (Actually must bullet velocity be less than Mach 0.85, because development of flight noise will start along with transsonic velocity). See an image about bullet flight noise for more information. For extra silencing effect, Minireflex Moderators are strong enough to be used also as a "wet" suppressor, by applying about a spoonfull of grease inside the moderator from its back and spreading it with a stick among the baffles and away from the bullet path. Grease or liguid inside a sound moderator absorbs muzzle blast energy by its immediate vaporization. The effect stays for 3 ... 20 shots after each refilling, depending on the properties of the absorbing substance. Ordinary lithium based lubricating grease is one of the most easily available absorbers. See Alan C. Paulson's book Silencer History and Performance for more details about wet suppressing techniques and noise absorbers. Caution! Do not over-fill the moderator, as it will raise the inside pressure beyond a risk of suppressor damage! Functioning of recoil action pistols is inherently sluggish or deficient, because of extra weight attached to recoiling barrel. A great many pistols will eject and/or feed reliably no other loads, but those with extra heavy bullets (weight 9 g or more). A makeshift trick is to obtain an extra recoil spring, and cut it short enough to reduce spring tension 20 to 25 per cent. This method may, however, result in feed jams - especially when the magazine of the pistol is crammed till it's nominal capacity. Shooting with reduced tension recoil spring and without Sound Moderator may curtail life of pistol, if powder charge of cartridges (behind standard weight bullet) is not reduced along with spring tension (20 to 25 %). Use of heavy bullet and reduced charge is the most advisable way to get reliable autoloading of the pistol, along with reduction of shooting noise. Some brands of 9 x 19 mm Subsonic cartridges with heavy bullets are available factory loaded (f. ex. Lapua with 9.7 g CEPP bullet), but any experienced handloader is able to develop and reload "subsonics". Cast bullets of lead alloy are excellent for these loads. Recommended bullet weight is circa 9.5 g /146 grains. Bullets with round point are best, if reliable functioning of pistol is of vital importance. If automatic function is unnecessary, it is possible to get very good silencing effect by rather heretical use of 9 mm Browning Short (.380 Auto; 9 x 17 mm) cartridges with 90 to 95 grains bullet, velocity ca. 265 m/s. Theoretically it is impossible to shoot cartridges having 17 mm case length in 19 mm chamber, but in practice most 9 x 19 mm pistols are able to fire 9 mm shorts. However, when cycling the slide manually the extractor hook of pistol will keep the cartridge in reach of firing pin. Feed from magazine is also usually reliable, in spite of less length and diameter of cartridge. For target practising without disturbing the neighbourhood, using 9 mm shorts is usually an economic way. Because the pistol does not "sow" spent cases all over, also unnecessary littering of the surrounding is avoided. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Military Science

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> single shot gun plans Log in

View Full Version : single shot gun plans twinkle

December 6th, 2001, 09:20 AM

Does someone have plans (drawings) for making a "simple" single shot pistol (without a magazine) ?

BoB-

December 6th, 2001, 10:44 AM

If your going to make it a singleshot, why use a bullet at all?

Madog555

December 6th, 2001, 12:41 PM

this has been discussed before -----------------"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 12:12 AM

it can be discussed before like you say( not as an insult) but can you then tell me where to find them ? I have never seen plans of them .I do have some of my own but I always are interested in seeing new things if someone is interested in the one I have let me know

nbk2000

December 7th, 2001, 02:00 AM

SEARCH OR DIE! http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon26.gif -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 02:33 AM

You seems to be very agressive NBK , but I only found addresses for automatic guns in which I am not realy interested , maybe I had to be more precise I was looking for break open barrel systems with or without a hammer and falling (rolling) block systems like the Remington , Winchester and Stevens Sharps and so

HMTD Factory

December 7th, 2001, 04:09 AM

Chill, people~ Yes there are excellent detailed drawings in the market but you will have to pay for them. There are couple books in Brownells Catalog (Brownells Catalog is a huge catalog for gun parts and related stuff). You can order them books straight from Brownells website WWW.Brownells.com (http://WWW.Brownells.com) In my 2001 catalog, on page 189 there are 6 single-shot rifle related books, one dedicated to gun plans.

HMTD Factory

December 7th, 2001, 04:21 AM

Well the Brownells site isn't as convenient as I thought so I am giving you this map. Ok, here's the walkthrough : go to www.brownells.com (http://www.brownells.com) click "product" chose manufacturer "DEHASS BARRELS" leave the "stock no." blank click "search" click "de HASS SINGLE SHOT BOOKS & MANUALS" you will see four books, the second one says:

Mr. Single Shot's BOOK OF RIFLE PLANS - Frank and Mark de Haas. 83 pages. 8½" x 11". Softbound. Extremely detailed book filled with crisp, clear, cross-sectional drawings and step-by-step procedures for making

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four de Haas-designed single shot actions. Featured are two Chicopee actions, designed for small cartridges and as first-rifle projects for the amateur gunsmith, plus Vault Lock Actions #1 and #2 which employ round breech blocks and many nontraditional features.

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 04:40 AM

The book you describe is that of" Frank de Haas" (or Hass)? , I do have a book of this de Haas is is also soft covered but it is from 1969 is that the same ?

FragmentedSanity

December 7th, 2001, 06:02 AM

Lo all :) Hey Twinkle I for one would be interested in the plan you have... I can probably dig up a few files as well - nothing spectacular but enough to give you some ideas. By the sound of things your after someting a little more technical than a zip gun (I dont blame you) what sort of idea do you have in mind? derringer style, caliber? My preference is as always .22, Do you actually want to machine it to look genuine - or do you want to use pipes and a better trigger system? later all. FS

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 07:01 AM

I like the .22 LR or WRM derringer style and I like to keep it simple and I am not a realy favourite of the zipgun while the bullets are not "locked up " in those barrels although that can easely be solved when you have a zipgun like a pengun

HMTD Factory

December 7th, 2001, 09:43 AM

I dunno if the book's the same as yours. But if the number of pages(83p) coincides then it could be the same. (It's Frank de Haas, Brownells website spelt it wrong.) If you have the book, is it good/useful? Derringers eh? Break action is probably the shortest action possible, barrel lock-up mechanism has to be precise tho, or it will give off-target accuracy and leak gas.

Anthony

December 7th, 2001, 12:23 PM

Probably far simpler than you're thinking of, but here's something I knocked up in an afternoon from a 5/8" nut and bolt and a few scraps of 15mm copper pipe: http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/22.html Everything sanded and epoxied together, the thing holding the firing pin is a piece of threaded section of the bolt. The firing pin is a nail ground to a blade tip and is held in by a collar, which is a small drilled out nut. The hammer is a short length of brass rod drilled and threaded onto the eye-bolt. The thing is pretty rusted/green/manky now having spent a while outdoors. Edit: typos [This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 12-12-2001).]

twinkle

December 7th, 2001, 03:23 PM

indeed very nice , simpel ,effective and fast to make with common materials

jin

December 7th, 2001, 05:03 PM

has anybody read the appeal for p.a lutty author of expedient firearms. www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm (http://www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm)

Bitter

December 8th, 2001, 03:10 AM

Is Jack Straw* still the home secretary ? I thought he'd been replaced with David Blunket**. *His son is a coke dealer and his brother is a convicted peadophile. **He's blind, but then again, aren't they all ? -----------------"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

J

December 8th, 2001, 04:00 AM

"Unfortunately, the photographer did not sympathize with Philip's cause, and informed the police of the whole operation." I always wondered how he got caught.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Full story on Straws brother: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_916000/916179.stm J -----------------Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm) PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

Bitter

December 11th, 2001, 08:54 AM

Moral of the story : Do it yourself. -----------------"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

HMTD Factory

December 12th, 2001, 02:18 PM

Or : Don't **** around in England.

Agent Blak

December 12th, 2001, 03:03 PM

If I were inclinded to make a gun it would be as follows; barrel length: 4" or 10cm -Diameter: 1/2" or 1.25cm -Material: drill rod -bore: Smoth; drilled with 15/64" bit Caliber: .22 for a power hammer Projectile: made from plumbing solder trig.mech: similiar to what is used in a cap gun. single shot is not hard to build. Use you grey matter...

nbk2000

December 12th, 2001, 10:55 PM

RTPB #1, Trust No One! Especially photographers you don't know to take pictures of you making guns in a country so fanatically anti-gun. That's the british equivalent of an American hiring some photographer out of the phone book to take pictures of you making meth in a lab. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif The guy was obviously a DIY kind of person, why couldn't he take his own fucking pictures?! That's why I bought a digital camera, no need for developing and the attendant risk of exposure. Manky? Is that similiar to Skanky (dirty, unclean)? -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle

December 13th, 2001, 01:35 AM

Agent Blak when you are meaning blanks for using a power hammer like a Hilti hammer then when you would use the black ones (for using with metal ) then a 1/2 " thick barrel would be tricky these are very powerfull cartridges , yelow would be okay and I do have some drawings of .22 cal but there are always simpler ways to make things like Anthony showed which could be of interest when making one .

Anthony

December 13th, 2001, 03:56 AM

"manky" Adj. Scruffy, dirty, distasteful, disgusting. As shown in http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/ - large dictionary of UK slang and colloquialismshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ ubb/smilies/smile.gif It was really dumb of Lutty to hire a photographer. Maybe he wanted a way to make the trail lead back to him and he thought he'd win if the case went to court (lot's of publicity) and he'd have made his point. Hell of a gamble if he did.

Arkangel

December 17th, 2001, 11:16 AM

Hard to believe he would trust a stranger for something like this, maybe it was the same photographer that did his wedding pictures and he got like a discounted rate for both jobs. Anyway Anthony, interesting to see your little single shot. Easy to break down and conceal. I'm assuming you tested it it, and wonder what sort of accuaracy you achieved. Also, with this type of device I'd be worried about barrel life, any thoughts on how many rounds you'd be happy to put through it? .22 is a lot easier to get hold of in the UK than any centrefire stuff, and a machinegun based around that would be interesting. I saw somewhere a working scale model of a vickers gun that used beltfed .22LR in a cloth belt.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Of course with a single shot .22 you run the risk of simply irritating the target, so maybe something a little bigger would be better. The US Army "improvised warfare devices and techniques" handbook has some interesting stuff in it, especially vietcong weapons. In a dream, now let me see, erm yes, nineteen years ago, I built what was intended as a reloadable thunderflash/grenade simulator for FIBUA training. It fired the 12 guage blackpowder blanks that are used by gamekeeper tripwires. It was lathe built from two pieces of steel, had a locking breech and central firing pin with a safety pin slot and trigger made from a bit of old hacksaw. It worked a treat, but it hadn't really occurred to me that with a shotgun shell it was a heavy duty zip gun and some very angry and not at all understanding people removed it from me a couple of years later http:// theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif However, if I had anything like this in mind for real, I'd sure as hell prefer a 12 guage or maybe even .410 to a short barrell .22 :D -----------------It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

SawedOff8gaugeman

December 17th, 2001, 12:46 PM

Similar devices usually stay in usable condition for at least a few hundred rounds(=enough), VERY shoddy guns a few dozen rounds(=enough).

nbk2000

December 17th, 2001, 02:53 PM

A gatling gun isn't a complicated mechanism. Much easier to build than a vickers or maxim. Add an electric motor, neglegible recoil, several thousand rounds per minute, and you've got a .22 man reaping scyth! -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

twinkle

December 17th, 2001, 03:27 PM

cal .410 is not a good choice as making a "zip" gun of it ,the pressure build up by this shells is very high so you need very good quality steel as a barrel and precise working then you better keep it by the 12 gauge shell ,there was said that a .22 is not realy a thread but looking into the barrel of a gun is never a nice idea (believe me )even of a .22lr

Anthony

December 17th, 2001, 03:54 PM

I did indeed test (play) with it. Accuracy: N/Ahttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I drilled the barrel with a cordless hand drill so it wasn't very straight (about 2mm off centre at the muzzle). Considering that the walls of the barrel are as thick as the bore, I'd put no limit on number of rounds to fire. Although parts of the firing mechanism may fall apart after heavy use. Catastrophic failure would be very unlikely. I really didn't make it for any purpose, just to see how easy it would be. I'm interested in what happened over you being caught with the 12bore zip, that's if the police were involved? A .22 gattling would be great! Imagine the amount of ammo you could carry... A .22 isn't a nasty round but 10 in a small area should do the job!

Arkangel

December 17th, 2001, 05:37 PM

.22 gatling gun! :D What a concept, even a cubscout could play at being arnie, and you sure could carry a packet of ammo. As I mentioned, I'd dreamt of building my 12 guage device (never intended as a zip, just a reloadable grenade for training purposes - 12 guage bp blanks $0.10 each - Thunderflashes $5.0 each) whilst in a cadet unit. Ended up taking it with me to the hooaah's and made the mistake of leaving it somewhere stupid. Was doing the responsible thing I thought by letting my boss know, but the shit hit the fan and I met a bunch of very unfriendly military piggies. I'm convinced the fuckers are still playing with it somewhere - hope one of 'em lost an appendage. I take the point about higher pressure of something like a .410, (did you also mean that a .410 would be higher pressure than a 12 guage?) but since we're talking about a barrel of less than 5 inches, will it ever reach the peak pressure that the load can produce. I don't see that a .410 zip would be substantially harder to build or conceal than a .22, I'd have thought that a bigger problem would be dealing with the recoil from an essentially ergonomically fucked device. When all said and done, something like this would be far more effective with a buckshot round than a single .22 projectile. Read "Blackhawk Down" about the US debacle in Somalia if you want and advert for higher calibre or expanding ammunition. Whatever the barrel, I never want to look down it Twinkle, you're right!!!!! -----------------It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

Arkangel

December 17th, 2001, 05:42 PM

Just to clarify Anthony, it never made it to the civ police, or even formal military. No, I simply became the single most popular guy on the unit overnight by picking up every shitty duty going for the next decade. -----------------It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

stiler

December 17th, 2001, 06:06 PM

.22 gatling blueprints are avail from a web site i looked at a while back. after some correspondence with the owner of the site

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and some samples of his work he seemed to know his stuff and have good products. it is going way past "zip gun" stage but is great reading material. the pics already posted look simple and affective to me for a quicky purpose, but if anyone wants the url for gatling (and many others) let me know and i can dig it up again http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/ smile.gif as for easy barrels i found a scrap bin at a machinist which had offcuts of 4140 in varied dia/length which had great cone shape centres cut in a few mm depth from the lathe, they made drilling 5.5 holes easy and dead straight. i havent looked very far but i wouldnt mind finding a set of drawings for a single shot pistol which was used during ww2 by the resistance in Europe called "the welrod" chambered in 7.65 it broke down into 2 sections and would be concealed in ones sock with a 12"silencer integral to barrel and was apparently much better than the model before which holds the record of being the only gun in history that took longer to load than to manufacture! the idea was to make a piece of shit that you would only pick up if you didnt have a "real gun" but could kill an enemy with it and then take his. go figure

FragmentedSanity

December 18th, 2001, 07:59 AM

Lo all :) it sounds like your talking about the "liberator" pistol - a personal favorite. the entire conept appeals to me. And they were of such a simple design that they can be easily improvised. Miind you Id like some detailed pics of the welrod too - they always just looked mean. As for the debate over caliber preferances - I personally wouldnt bother with the .410 when a 12 guage would be more effective in an improvised piece. A .45 (ala the liberator) would of course be nice as it will make more noise (shock and fear can be your friend) and put bigger holes in peop... I mean tin cans. But I still hold with the theory that if you cant kill something with a .22 you shouldnt be shooting at it. .22 bullets are cheap and easy to get, and if you want more stopping power from it flatten the tip and expand the hollow point - most impro pieces have shitty accuracy anyway. But better than that is that if you can make a piece with one barrel its not much harder at all to make one with a cluster of them that all fire at once or with the option of a second burst. in reality an impro pistol is only any good to about 10-20 feet anyway and 5 or 10 .22 at that range is going to ruin anyones day. personally I think the best config is two groups of three clustered barrels arranged so that each group has a seperate hammer. giving you a followup shot if need be, and the likleyhood of getting a dud bullet in each barrel is minimal. enough of that tho - Im drooliong at the idea of .22 gatling shematics - so any info would be greatly appreciated. later all FS

stiler

December 18th, 2001, 10:05 AM

ok FragmentedSanity the url and for anyone else it took a quick search to find it again "new hard drive no bookmarks again blah blah" but ask and ye shall receive. http://www.jkcruise.com/index.html like i said in my prev post we shared a few emails and i formed a personal opinion that the bloke was quite talented and a very helpfull individual http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif he answered my questions and sent samples of pro cad re-draws IIRC drafted when available from original military blueprints. why am i so happy to promote his site? (feel free to send me commish MR cruise http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif lol when i've never spent a penny buying his seemingly excellent work? long story but in a nut shell i was impressed enough to order and post off for several models, and felt pretty scammed when the mail came back address unknown ATT!!(NO MONEY WAS CHARGED)!! the cheque came back as was sent. bummer no prints ill ask later what the prob was, weeks end up going by yada yada. well it was totally my screw up i own a small business and run envelopes through the printer with our logos/details etc and guess which wally copy pasted a completely irrelevant piece of info for the address? you guessed it "mwa" i can assume it just went with normal outgoing garb un noticed. that was almost this time last year im hoping to get back around to it one day soon http:// theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif he prob wouldnt remember me or the missing order by now but who knows? ok now to find the welrod cheers

stiler

December 18th, 2001, 10:50 AM

the welrod i personally would not say falls into the bracket of being an "improvised weapon" for obvious reasons. also i was happy to find more info about it and some better pics than i have in a couple of books. well have a squiz for yourself http:// www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Single-Shot-Pistols/Welrod.htm well thats the good news, the bad news is it is still a clasified weapon so it may be hard to find much in the way of "usable specs" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif but hey if i was looking for a single shot home made weapon which is somewhat tried and tested this is the one that would really get my brain itching!http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/ smile.gif ok class for todays task lets reinvent the wheel and see who can come up with the best set of drawings after reverse enginering the welrod from current info. best set of plans gets a cookie

zaibatsu

December 18th, 2001, 02:44 PM

I found this link http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/the22.html by using the name the pistol (welrod) is given in one of my books "Rifles and pistols" and it is called the Wellrod, in here is says it was produced in .32, 7.65mm as well as 9mm, and it was a bolt action single shot. However, from the above link I found this: The only offensive use of the .22 rimfire, in a military roll, is in the silenced pistol. These pistols, beginning with the splendid Wellrod, of the Second World War, can be remarkably quiet. The Wellrod was a single shot pistol, with a silencer integrated into the barrel. The Wellrods were primarily for special operations, and tended to be used for assassination, or for sentry removal. I guess (from the pictures) that you pull back the knob at the back of the gun to cock it, and this also ejects a spent cartridge, like if you cycled a semi auto by hand (I think, I've never done this before). Someone (sorry, can't remember who) designed a single shot shotgun that operated on pulling a knob at the back, maybe you could look at this, and go on from there. Oh, and it was supposedly manufactured by Welwyn Garden. Oh, just doing a little search while I did this Again, all officers were introduced to and given practical training in such as the Welrod (a silent pistol firing 7.65mm ammunition, but of such puny velocity that its only value lay in killing at extremely close range) Taken from this page http://freespace.virgin.net/arthur.brown2/short%20history.htm

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I hope this helps you to find out some details (note: on this webpage it calls it the welrod pistol, not the wellrod, confusing eh? ) Some more pages you may find slightly useful http://www.geocities.com/~cthulhu_666/wodequip1.html (A welrod pistol in .45?) http://www.rennet.org/cyber/polar/liste.htm http://www.wingevapen.no/vapkjop.htm Basically follow this link to find loads of links to sites, not sure how much is just info rechurned. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=welrod -----------------Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

Charlie Workman

December 20th, 2001, 03:48 AM

The welord was only produced in 2 calibers- .32acp and 9mm para. The .45 gun never existed (as far as anyone has been able to find out). Each was a different gun, though they operated in the same manner. Both were simple bolt action repeaters. I was never fond of the 9mm, too long and ungainly, but the .32 was sweet. I've often thought a good modern(?)day replacement would be a silenced nagant revolver. Heavier bullet, higher velocity, and faster rate of fire. Only the captive piston guns would have it beat, at least in the concealablity department.

Arkangel

December 20th, 2001, 09:10 AM

Just had a look at a Nagant on the web and the seal sounds useful. I used to have an 8 round .22 snub nose revolver (sorry about deviating from the thread a little here) that used to just piss the gas out the sides, and I'm curious how the nagant seals effectively. (I was most annoyed because it wouldn't ignite the .22 tracer I'd bought) It would be interesting to know how much forensic residue would be left on your hand (glove) by a nagant. -----------------It's easier to get forgiveness than permission

HMTD Factory

December 20th, 2001, 01:25 PM

The Nagant revolver seals gas with special setup in the cylinder and cartridge. http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/nagrev.htm

nbk2000

December 21st, 2001, 01:33 AM

I was in the grocery store earlier today and saw this "gun" that had plastic cartridges that shoot out confetti or ribbons. I copied the patent number (5423265) and checked it out at the USPTO site. It's a plastic shell with a nipple in the center, over which is placed a red plastic percussion cap of the kind used in cap guns. Well, this naturally brought to mind what I've read about the original gatling gun which used an exactly similar arrangement. Anyways, these things are perfect ready made shells for loading with a powder charge and bullet. It's a .30 caliber size (didn't get to measure it) and looks like a 1/4" steel slingshot ammo bearing would fit perfectly. The shell, if loaded with a plastic or glass bullet, would pass through a metal detector easily. The "gun" it's made for is useless for adaptation. The cost was 10 shells for $1.50. Look for them! They probably won't be around long because some kid (maybe someone here?) will turn these into weapons and get them recalled. Anyways, I also thought that (listen to this anthony) that by adding a little extra propellant, you could replace the confetti with tear gas powder to shoot someone in the face with it. -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Anthony

December 21st, 2001, 10:54 AM

Duly noted, I'll keep an eye out for them.

J

December 21st, 2001, 11:33 AM

I used to have one of these. More fun than party poppers! J -----------------Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm) PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

MacCleod They sell those at Phantom fireworks stores also.

December 22nd, 2001, 09:54 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter vehemt

December 23rd, 2001, 02:46 AM

Used to shoot glass marbles out of those. A single toy cap was able to lob a marble rather far.

twinkle

December 23rd, 2001, 05:25 AM

NBK you said you looked up the patent number, I know that there are very nice patents of single shot falling actions like this number http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US06233860__first it was free and I have downloaded several nice things but nowadays it is not free anymore and you have to pay so can you tell me how you look these things up ? falling block actions are nice they are very strong and are easier to make then a bolt action gun . (Go to http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html NBK2000) [This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited December 23, 2001).] thank nbk2000 I see the pages now but how do I save them ? it don't work when I click the right mouse button [This message has been edited by twinkle (edited December 23, 2001).]

zaibatsu

December 23rd, 2001, 06:45 AM

Anthony, here a link to a site that sells the confetti gun, it may be interesting to buy one... Here's the confetti gun (http:// www.confetti.co.uk/shopping/newshop/productview.asp?cat=94&id=W70017&Start=4) its £4, and reloads are £1 for ten, the gun already comes with 15. -----------------Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum) [This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited December 23, 2001).]

vehemt

December 23rd, 2001, 03:11 PM

Thats the same confetti gun I used to play with, they cost 1$CDN with 2 or 3 shells and an additional pack of 10 shells cost 1$CDN.

Madog555

December 23rd, 2001, 04:06 PM

here is the patent for the single shot falling action -----------------"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

Anthony

December 23rd, 2001, 04:19 PM

Thanks for the link Zaibatsu:)

twinkle

December 23rd, 2001, 04:32 PM

here are some other gun patents but you must look to them with the address NBK2000 gave http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05095643__ http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn10=US04268987 http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=US04644930__ http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05105569__ http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=US05782025__ http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05659992__ http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn10=US04424638 http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04709617__

nbk2000

December 25th, 2001, 04:24 AM

Be careful where you point the gun at or you could end up like this guy. http://www.lambobuilder.com/noguns.html -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Bitter

December 25th, 2001, 03:01 PM

Picking up a loaded shotgun by the trigger is never a particularly good idea, let alone leaving it loaded in the first place. What an idiot. -----------------"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Riot

December 25th, 2001, 03:28 PM

All this talk about building guns, no offence if u are building them as a hobby or its fun but i would just buy one. I got a friend in zim who could get me a shotgun for about 1/3 pound 1/2 dollor. And as for getting it accross the border, i smuggled a bbgun shotgun accross last time i went.

Anthony

December 25th, 2001, 06:54 PM

£0.50 for a shotgun? Are dealers doing that as a special offer when you buy half a pound of crack now? "i smuggled a bbgun shotgun" - woah! You could have run the risk of that getting confiscated!

nbk2000

December 25th, 2001, 07:48 PM

"BB shotgun"? Is that the air-soft version? I don't think border guards are looking for 13 year olds smuggling BB guns. Now if it was a kilo of heroin or a crate of AK-47s you'd have something to brag about. Though, if by "zim" you meant zimbabwe, then the assertion of a gun for a few bucks is believable. War-torn 3rd world countries are often awash with more guns than money to buy food. In liberia you can buy an AK-47 for $10. BTW, what's it like to live in a country full of niggers? That must really suck bigtime mangy cat scrotum. -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

zaibatsu

December 25th, 2001, 09:38 PM

I was reading in some paper that in a country in SA (maybe cambodia?) the military will let you use some of their weapons for a price (grenades were $20, I can't remember the rest) and, if you want, you can fire at a large live target like a cow, for $300. Imagine this conversation: Friend One: What did you do on holiday? I went round a few ancient markets. Friend Two: I blew up a cow.

Riot

December 26th, 2001, 04:16 PM

Im not saying smuggling a bbgun shotgun is big but it could of been an ak-47 or a kilo of heroin, they wouldn't of found either. U just drive straight through, no checking car or anything. And also ur right the gaurds arn't looking for a 15 year old with an Ak-47 so it works to my advantage. Cambodia is actually in Asia, my dad went there and u are allowed to shoot the armies guns. Cows i don't know (Just for the record my country is F***ing SHIT!!!!!!! the kaffas (ka-fas) as we call them here are everyware u look and they all f****ing stink. They drive shit cars blasting their shit music and genrally make South Africa "suck bigtime mangy cat scrotum") [This message has been edited by Riot (edited December 26, 2001).]

Bitter

December 27th, 2001, 07:21 AM

Is Mugabe still in power in Rhodesia ? Has he given up killing white farmers yet ? I notice the UN had done fuck all about it so far (had it been whites killing black farmers, the UN would have gone bezerk). -----------------"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

Riot

January 7th, 2002, 04:36 AM

(sorry for taking long i've bin away) Yep Mugabe is still in zim, he's still milking the country for all its worth. He has given up kiling the farmers, but now that most of the farms have been taken over there are food shortages there and the counrty is now starving. My friend who lives there says u can't even buy sugar anymore. As for killing, it works the same here(SA). A black kills a white, no big deal it happens all the time. A white kills a black, it's all in the newspapers, racist crime, hate crime, apartheid, all that shit.

Bitter

January 8th, 2002, 05:30 PM

Yeah and no doubt when the famines start to get serious, the stupid UN will come running to the rescue (and Blair will probably be with them) to prop up yet another communist dictatorship. I don't know; with all this UN silence over the Taliban's attack on the US and over the events in Rhodesia, anyone would have thought that the UN was part of some communist plot to take over the world... But where would anyone get a silly idea like that ? :D

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Noct

January 8th, 2002, 07:38 PM

Holy shit. $10 for an AK-47 $0.50 for a shotgun I never would have guessed the prices were that low! Even in countries like that!

Riot

January 10th, 2002, 07:01 AM

Well me friend told me a story(a true one) This guy goes to rob these old people, he has a gun(pistil). He is holding the people up. The old guy says can i buy the gun. The robber says ok but nothing less than 40 dollars/+- R3.50/ $.35 US. So when the old guy has the gun he holds the robber up and says piss off and calls the cops. But the prices are probally even lower. Also the people who sell flowers on the side of the road also sell drugs.(cheap as well) U can get everything u need there :) [ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Riot ]

Xtramad

March 15th, 2002, 01:13 PM

Thank God the forum is back! Some questions went unanswered in this discussion which I feel I can shed a little light on. First of all, the welrod is a bolt action pistol functioning in the same way as any single shot bolt action rifle, the knob at the rear is twisted 90 degrees to unlock the two locking lugs, then pulled backwards to extract and eject the spent cartridge, the small notch in the cocking knob is an index mark to show when the bolt is in closed position. When the bolt is pushed forward the firing pin is cocked. Welrod pistol Second, THe Nagant revolver uses special cartridges where the bullet is seated flush with the mouth of the cartridge,Nagant Cartridge when the hammer is cocked the cylinder moves forward to encase the rear end of the barrel and the cartridge case forms the gas tight seal. Nagant revolver

And one question: What excatly is a zip gun? The definition given in dictionaries seems quite lose and would cover just about any homemade pistol in any caliber, size and form.

FragmentedSanity

March 16th, 2002, 10:30 AM

mmm Welrods... but yeah - you got the right definition - a zip gun is basically any kind of homemade pistol - of varying calibers and shapes and sizes, only slightly less sufficticated than a "saturday night special" Zip Guns do seem to all follow the same basic design tho and characteristically use a blunted nail as a firing pin and a bent piece of tin with some rubber bands attached as a hammer the file from Phrack or temple of the screaming retards will give you a fair idea of what a zip gun is (and looking at where the file comes from should tell you all you need to kow about the quality) bUt I spse its still tru the in gun fight any gun is better than none (providing you gun doest blow up in your face) so if you really cant come up with anything better then make a zip gun (genetic chlorine) >:)

Xtramad

March 17th, 2002, 06:34 AM

I found the Phrack file and it told me more about the quality of the writer than the quality of the gun. Making a zip gun to shoot rifle rounds just by epoxying together steel and copper pipes of the nearest possible size seems like a suicide attempt. That text file is obviously written by someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of guns. However, I just wanted to know if the 9mm I'm "Theoretically" making fits the definition.

tiac03

May 31st, 2004, 11:49 PM

Pre US invasion you used to be able to buy an AK for 30-50$ and grenades for 50 cents a piece. (from time magazine, before the last afghan war. As for the welrod, all i can say is I wish there were detailed diagrams to how it works out there. (this forum was my last hope of finding info on it.)

Anders

June 1st, 2004, 03:59 AM

Try looking at this site. Some nice diagrams of the welrod. http://www.timelapse.dk/Welrod/uk/

guerrero

August 23rd, 2004, 02:26 AM

The recommendation to buy a weapon instead of fabricate a less efective one is good. I agree. If it is possible, well it´s fine. But is it so easy in all parts of the world? And the other question is: If it is possible now, will it be possible Tomorow as well?

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It´s better to know a strategy for situations without this possibility, isn´t it?

Skean Dhu

August 23rd, 2004, 06:23 PM

Well from what I've read its would seem that buyng an AK is easier than buying the plumbing parts to make some inaccurate single shot zip gun. I think most of the people here are just making zip guns to prove to themselves that they can, or they got tired of plinking at tin cans with their red ryder BB gun and wanted to step it up a notch

Hobbit Porn

August 23rd, 2004, 10:24 PM

It might be easier to get an AK then assemble something else in someplaces.. however, places like Australia and England especially, where there are very strict, tight-ass gun laws, the latter is probably more true. but I agree with you when you say most people who make them just do so to prove to themselves they can. I know thats why I do more then half the pointless shit I do :) -H.Porn

raptor1956

August 24th, 2004, 06:25 PM

Luty does plans for a handy little .22 on his website. Also for a single shot 12g pistol

Third_Rail

November 6th, 2004, 03:55 PM

Thanks Raptor, I didn't know that it had been updated in a long while. Looks like I have even more things to do in machine shop. I love the fact that I can legally build semi-auto, single shot, etc. rifles here in USA.

Third_Rail

November 9th, 2004, 12:34 AM

My new single-shot pistol is coming along nicely, I should have pictures by Wednesday. I decided to do away with an external hammer and instead go for an open bolt slamfire, since it's only .22lr. So far I have a trigger, sear, the barrel, the receiver tube, the bolt, and the springs together. It's a matter of cutting a slot for the trigger, for the bolt, and fitting things together. I'll be posting pictures when I'm finished, whether that be on Wednesday or later.

goodwinone

March 9th, 2008, 04:00 PM

Nice idea. http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleshotpistol22lric0.jpg

iHME

March 11th, 2008, 12:46 PM

I originally thought that I could use a similar action in my pistol (still under construction, I need to get a second vice and some inserts for it) but now I have opted to make it bolt action with a self-cocking hammer. Mayebe in the future I'll add a magazine to it.

kaiserbill

July 10th, 2008, 10:21 AM

Hi Guys I know that this is a relative blast from the past, but since the forum was reorganised into the new various sub-themes, I've decided to include the project described below. I basically wrote the information below originally to fellow forumite Killy as a PM, but I hope it adequately describes my first attempt at gunsmithing. The end product was a perfectly servicable shotgun. Although I do not have plans for it, it was a single shotgun design that was very easy to construct. The shotgun was a single shot. It was quite basic. I shaped a wooden stock onto which I attached a pipe with a slot cut down the middle which then turned 90degrees near the end (receiver). Into this I slid a standard water pipe (barrel) suitable for a 12 gauge shell. The fit was perfect.On either end of the barrel, as I cut it to the correct length, I left a small piece that I then bent at a 90 degree angle to the barrel. This doubled as a basic front sight on one end, and a basic locking nib on the other end. you loaded the shell into whatever end you chose, then pushed the barrel with the sight/lock all the way down the slot to the end, then turned it 90 degrees to lock. the turning to lock moved the front sight from9 o'clock to the correct 12 o'clock position. I constructed a basic trigger mechanism from the various sources on the net. Once loaded, the hammer was pulled back until cocked, then the trigger was pulled. To reload, the reverse procedure was done, that is, the barrel turned 90 degrees, slid forward. You could even leave the previous expended shotgun shell in the barrel and use the other side loaded with a fresh cartridge. So in effect, both ends of the barrel were also chambers with their seperate sights/locking nib. The firing of the following cartridge would easily expel the fired cartridge in the other side. Rates of fire with this methodology I achieved were about 10 rounds a minute. The above project is obviously primitive, but was designed to teach myself a few things. I put about 50 rounds through her before destroying her. I should have a photo of her somewhere to send if I can find it. I chose a shotgun as I believe it is the firearm most easily constructed due to low pressures, and ease of materiels use. I was intending then to manufature a breakopen double barrelled shotgun as a more advanced project, but recently have been looking at the Luty machine pistol designs rather.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter shady mutha

July 21st, 2008, 04:04 AM

If you have the round you should have no trouble making a basic gun. I have made many a dodgy 12g. All you need is a pipe that fits the round and a hammer anything more is up to your imagination. What ever works is order of the day. Often I have plenty read plans for this and that, unable to aquire the exact parts I just make my own version. Improvise the best you can. Homemade guns are really rewarding to make and you never forget how, its like riding a bike.

amsci99

July 31st, 2008, 06:02 PM

Here's a link for the de hass book which was mentioned earlier in the thread. http://www.zshare.net/download/1632135915987649/

amsci99

August 2nd, 2008, 06:06 PM

Received PM that link does not work. I have uploaded it to Rapidshare. http://rapidshare.com/files/134395836/Fred_de_Hass.pdf.html

kaiserbill

August 4th, 2008, 11:25 AM

Many thanks amsci99. That is certainly appreciated. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Got the .5 0 plans

D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 02:48 AM

I ordered the Plans for the .50 Caliber From the Johnny .50 guy, It m ight just work http://theforum .virtuala v e . n e t / u b b / s m ilies/ smile.gifI have all the Parts, all I am waiting on is the Barrel I ordered http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif , I a m gonna start on it's constru ction soon as my barrel arrives http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif. Nice project, lots'o fun. Look for updates on my pro g r e s s , I m o p e n t o a n y s u g g e s t i o n s o r I d e a s a l l m a y h a v e . -----------------" T h e D e a t h O f O ne Is a tragedy, the Death of a million is just a statistic" Stalin

nbk2000

D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 07:50 PM

S c a n i n t h e p l a n s a n d p o s t t h e m for us here. -----------------"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me." Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

RTC

D e c e m ber 26th, 2001, 11:16 PM

I also would be intrested in these plans.

Ctrl_C

D e c e m ber 27th, 2001, 09:02 PM

if yo u d o s c a n t h e m , u p l o a d t h e m to the Forum FTP -----------------Long Ass Sig

shane

May 29th, 2002, 04:17 AM

hey the fileis em pty can you please e-m ail m e the file on the big 50 at [email protected]

Mick

May 29th, 2002, 11:38 AM

er...what file?

Spudkilla

May 29th, 2002, 12:13 PM

S h a n e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e F T P . O bviously he doesn't know that you now need an account to access anythin g. Mr.50m a n 2 k 2 , are the plans already a PDF? If not, you should m a k e t h e m .

Bitter

May 29th, 2002, 01:48 PM

Didn't we given Mr.50m an2k2 HED ?

Spudkilla

May 29th, 2002, 04:41 PM

Crap. I didn't relize this post was m a d e i n D e c e m b e r . S o m e people (SHANE!) shouldn't reply to top ics m a d e 5 m o n t h s a g o !

Azazel

May 30th, 2002, 06:22 AM

LOO OOOL :mad:

zaibatsu

May 30th, 2002, 02:53 PM

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View Full Version : barrel rifling dharcast1

July 9th, 2001, 05:58 AM

I would greatly appreciate any ideas on how to rifle gun barrels as easily as possible at home.

deezs

July 9th, 2001, 01:40 PM

If you have a barell, into which you could make rifling at home, it would surely explode! If there would be any easy method for this, you could find it on the net. If you need rifled barell for your zip-gun, buy a disarmed gun, and use it's barell. -----------------"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it." [This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 09, 2001).]

Bitter

July 9th, 2001, 02:30 PM

If getting hold of deactivated guns was that simple, I doubt he would be trying to make his own.

atropine

July 9th, 2001, 03:17 PM

ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your ow n then i can russle up my blue prints. You w ill need a lathe though. Or for a small fee i could rifle a tube for you out of 1" (diameter) highspeed steel. As long as you arent going to use it and agree to a disclaimer (i dont w ant my ass on the line) -----------------all wize men have unwize fantasies < ^ >

JWD85

July 9th, 2001, 03:59 PM

atropineI would appreciate it if you would post the blue prints for the rifling tool you made.

Predator

July 9th, 2001, 04:29 PM

In a dream I had, a drill bit worked just fine on a 1.5 inch aluminium rod with a 9mm bore. A 9.5mm drillbit w as hammered into it, allowed to tw ist on it's way in, then pulled back out, allowing it to turn in the opposite direction. It w orked well and didn't explode. Not that it would have mattered, it was just a dream

zaibatsu

July 9th, 2001, 04:40 PM

Gun barrels should rotate themselves, and have a stationary drill bit inserted, with a hole down the middle, with water/oil being pumped in. However, we could forget the hole down the middle, and just bore it slowly.

viper01

July 13th, 2001, 08:04 PM

If you get a flat rectangular steel plate and cut a slot about 3mm wide across the plate diagonal. You can then roll the plate steel around a metal bar to form a pipe w ith a slot twisting round the pipe. You then get a piece of bar that w ill fit inside the home made pipe and drill a hole through the centre and make a 3mm-taped hole through the side for a guide screw. You then fit a long steel rod through the hole in the centre of the bar, at one end of the rod you fit a handle preferably one that can spin on the shaft. Now comes the hard part at the other end of the rod you have to make some sort of rifling file that is up to you. You could make a spring-loaded filing device that can make 2 cuts 180 deg apart at the same time. Old files can be cut up with an angle grinder for the rifling files. If you are going to make large calibre barrel .45 or larger this system could be used w ithout too much precision of construction. This is actually one of the ways rifling used to be done it isnt to hard to work out the angle of the twist you want and cut the slot accordingly. If you want I can post a picture of this on this thread.

-----------------Happiness is a big bang! [This message has been edited by viper01 (edited July 13, 2001).]

zaibatsu

July 13th, 2001, 08:15 PM

A picture would be great viper, thankyou if you can!

SMAG 12B/E5

July 13th, 2001, 11:41 PM

Deezs, don't give up so easily. All the information necessary to build rifling equipment and barrels is available in the number 5 "Foxfire" series, Bill Holmes "Workshop" series and "The Modern Riflebarrel" and other books by Harold Hoffman. There is plenty of material available axel shafts, special tubing and my favorite, one inch "suker rod" (used in oil wells and cheap) that is made of 4140 alloy. The Hoffman series is especially good and contains information of the fabrication of reamers and related equipment.

deezs

July 30th, 2001, 04:55 PM

You throw yourself to the mercy of the rules of phsics, if you use homemade guns for shooting. If you use it for self defence... You are an idiot. You never know, when it explodes. It can happen w ith shotguns, if some sand or dirt gets into the barrel, that they explode, or earlier AK clones, in .22 caliber, that they crack, w hen contact with w ater. You had better, to buy a gun. A rearmed model from the WWII is far better, than a homemade zip gun. Here, in Hungary, you can buy an AK-74 under 100$. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif) There's just one person (if you are smart no one), who knows, that you have a gun. Just the one, who sold it for you. The mag holds 30 rounds. One bullet is enough for him. -----------------"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it." "To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

Anthony

July 30th, 2001, 06:44 PM

Half the fun of homemade firearms is the challenge of building them scratch, you can also be creative with the design. Sure there's a risk using them (depends how good a gun smith you are) but there's also a risk buying illegal firearms. Some dirt/sand in the barrel of a zip shotgun isn't going to burst the barrel...

nbk2000 R.T.P.B. Rule #1: Trust no one. (Especially a criminal with a loaded gun. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif)

July 31st, 2001, 05:17 AM

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Any half intelligent gun dealer is going to give you the gun without the firing pin. They come in a seperate bag for you to install later, after the deal has been completed. One general store I heard of had a fully loaded Mini-14 hanging behind the counter in full sight of any potential robbers. They'd even hand it to you to look at, but you'd be fucked if you then tried to jack the place w ith it. Why? Because the firing pin had been removed but there's a fully loaded sawed off double barrel under the counter. OOPPS. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif -----------------"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them" Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF. Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Fingerless

September 3rd, 2001, 08:23 PM

The best rifle makers rifle their barrels by hand, w ith a type of ream and take very thin passes (Thousandths of an inch at a time). To make a good barrel you don't need a ton of money, but a ton of time, and skill, and patience!

twinkle

September 4th, 2001, 04:18 PM

here is a link for some nice info on rifling http://ww w.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

zaibatsu

September 4th, 2001, 05:07 PM

Or even this page... http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com/Rifle_Barrel.htm

shooter3

September 5th, 2001, 09:23 PM

"Barrels And Actions" copyright1991 by Harold Hoffman H&P Publishing 7174 Hoffman Rd. San Angelo, Tx. USA 76905. 320 pages. From barstock to completed barrel. This tech. manual tells you everything including how to make the tools. I forget what I paid for it, but it was very reasonable.

atropine

September 7th, 2001, 06:42 PM

i done a few using the single pass cut idea. But im going to use a twisted bar as opposed to filling the ready rifled. As the tw isted square bar is pulled through the square hole it causes it to tw ist.

HMTD Factory

October 1st, 2001, 03:53 PM

Electrical Discharge Machining...they produce the smoothest barrel, but only if you got electricity and timehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Scientist

September 5th, 2004, 11:26 AM

ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your ow n then i can russle up my blue prints. Still willing to post them?

raptor1956

September 5th, 2004, 07:07 PM

while I have researched DIY rifling with interest against the day (and it w ill come!) when we cant buy a barrel, most gunshops, even here in the people's republic of Australia, sell second-hand barrels at a reasonable price. At this stage licences aren't required, and .22's are cheap enough to experiment to your heart's content.

MMIV

September 5th, 2004, 08:46 PM

u could use the a drive sharft of a car, lathe and drill to the desired shape, but you need 2 place the steel under intense heat to soften the steel, so it easier to work w ith. also, i had an idea of making rifling head to contain a slight angle,so that the head can twist on it's own and w ould not the factory barrel as a guide. but one w ord of advice, only make barrel it u really need to. :)

Anthony

September 6th, 2004, 02:22 PM

"Scientist", that post w as made over 3 years ago, and atropine has ceased to be a member here since then. So don't hold your breath.

Scientist

September 6th, 2004, 02:46 PM

Anthony, thanks for the hint. :)

MrResearch

September 4th, 2008, 10:36 AM

Electrolytic rifling is the most easy method to produce a high quality profile without any expensive tools. See here: http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/extrude-hone/electrolytic-machining-and-rifl-ing-ecr/19736-35480-_2.html

Bugger

September 5th, 2008, 06:02 AM

It should be possible to fashion an improvised rifle or pistol barrel out of high-pressure steel or stainless steel piping, with an extra-thick wall, as used for high-pressure fluid transport in chemical process plants. Such piping is produced by extrusion at temperatures near the melting-point, through an orifice with a central mandrel make of a hard refractory material, rather than by drilling out solid circular bars or similar. Perrys Chemical Engineers Handbook has a section dealing with standard diameters and guages (wall thicknesses) of piping, with pressure ratings.

iHME

September 5th, 2008, 09:10 AM

If the pipes pressure rating matches the cartridges (eg. is bigger) I don't see why it w ould not w ork. Of course it would be a smoothbore w eapon if it is not rifled, but thats obvious.

festergrump

September 5th, 2008, 11:04 AM

Smoothbore should be fine for a subgun, but as of now rifled barrel liners can still be had for the hobbiest which can be pressed into such seamless tubing with a hydraulic shop press if the IS/OS diameters are consistant and compatable. A reliable source for them can be found here. (http://www .trackofthewolf.com/(S(ldcctm451ooxyuzgh4w fty45))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID= 483).

486

September 5th, 2008, 05:19 PM

The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually. When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling. then you use electrolysis [like the 5TH grade science fair electroplating thing] to "cut" the exposed metal away, If you run electrolyte through the barrel it should "cut" it evenly [in my mind, I can't figure why it wouldn't].

MrResearch

September 6th, 2008, 09:26 AM

The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually. No. When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling. It's exactly this method, hence electrolytical rifling as an fluid electrolyte is used. I wondered which coating would work best, e.g. would be easy to apply, insulate good and be at the same time - easy to scratch off the barrels surface wherever the grooving is desired.

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September 6th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right? Otherw ise wouldn't it just take metal away from the w hole inside diameter of the blank?

MrResearch

September 6th, 2008, 07:03 PM

Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right? No..the amount of metal can be calculated with the current over time and how much electrons are removed for the metal (iron) to become a soluable ion. For example, you have want to remove 10g of Iron. That's about 0.178 moles. Then you need to remove 3 electrons per atom. That's 0.178*3= 0.53 The 0.53 has to be multiplied with the number of atoms per mole to get the complete amount of electrons we want to remove from the iron: 0.53 x 6.02214 x 10^23 = 3.226x10^23 = x 1 Ampere is about 6.241 x 10^18 electrons / second = y. x/y= 51690 seconds or (51690/3600=)14.3 hours to remove 10g Iron with 1A or to be more precise, 14.3 hours to ionize 0.53m Fe to Fe(3+) ions. Otherw ise wouldn't it just take metal away from the w hole inside diameter of the blank? That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with somthing non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole. When this is done, the place where you w ant the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must not have a single spot where the plastic spray isn't properly removed. But even w ith these difficulties it's by far more easy for amateurs compared to the other rifling methods.

Lenkers

September 10th, 2008, 01:53 PM

So, our plan is : 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

Buy a SMT or SHT, because we can´t drill a deep hole Coat it w ith something none conductive, like epoxy glue :confused: Scratch grooves in the coating Put it in a tank with a conductive fluid Apply current Wait a few hours, tadaahhh, we have a nice barrel :D

The problems are making the scratches inside the barrel and the electric part. Any ideas on solutions?

iHME

September 11th, 2008, 02:24 PM

Isn't the electrode hollow to spray electrolyte to push out the filings and stuff that gets "eaten" away? At least the last time I read about EDM/ECM it said something like that. But I also remember reading about it on a thread on The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi) And it was about rifling about a barrel! So it fits our interests perfectly! :D Someone there had also built a crude machine sometime ago but had no real prints for it and had rigged it up from scrap IIRC. I DO have exelent pdf on EDM/ECM somewhere on my computer, but its ~00:20 here and I need to catch my sleep, so I'll upload the pdf and try to find a link to the thread tomorrow. I also have it printed out so if I have accidently deleted it I can scan it if nothing other helps. The pdf has some simple diagrams on the circuitry and similar stuff. Tough my memories are a bit vague, it is something like more than 6 months after I read it and I read it at the shitter, so I had more pressing maners to pursue :o Edit: Okay, found the topic @ The Home Gunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=2;t=21070;st= 0) Read the thread completely, it is basically the same stuff we are after. A site about ECM theory (http://w ww.eod.gvsu.edu/eod/manufact/manufact-281.html) A good read.

Attached the pdf I was talking on the above post below.

Lenkers

September 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM

Huh? Some smart people already wrote books about home made EDM´s :eek: EDM How To Book by Ben Fleming Build an EDM by Robert Langloi

http://ww w.build-stuff.com/EDMCompareBooks.htm Some links I came across: A Mini-EDM System (http://pico-systems.com/edm.html) Homemade EDM -scroll down (http://home.earthlink.net/~a_wake/)

MrResearch

September 13th, 2008, 07:58 AM

I wonder w hy we are talking about EDM :rolleyes: It is extremely complicated to produce usable barrels with EDM, let alone the neccessary machinery. There is a huge difference between EDM, ECM and the method I referred to, which is seemingly the only non-mechanic method an amateur could use. The method does have nothing to do with EDM and only a bit with ECM.

486

September 18th, 2008, 11:13 PM

That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with something non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole [polystyrene?]. When this is done, the place where you want the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must not have a single spot w here the plastic spray isn't properly removed.

With the picture of the process it looked as if they were using the resistance of the electrolyte to cut just the grooves, with the little electrode pads on the mandrel thing, maybe with no coating. Also you might do that to help with only "cutting" metal from where you scratched the grooves in the coating in case there was a few dots where the coating didn't cover. The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://w ww.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi) I was just about to post fuzzbean's rifling machine right before I read your post! :D Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the plans in it...

iHME

September 19th, 2008, 11:55 AM

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Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the plans in it... So true. But even with free access they are excellent forums. Also one can find real gems by lurking at the "New File and Information Uploads" subforum. This week someone posted there prints for the P08 Luger, damn complicated weapon to machine tough.

jlwilliams

October 7th, 2008, 10:22 PM

Many years ago I saw a simple rifling machine at a historical crafters exhibit, I think it was called the "Ozark Folk Center" in Arkansas. I wish I had pictures but I will try to describe it. It w as built onto a long table, twice as long as a barrel to be rifled plus some working room. The barrel was clamped down in blocks on the table, lengthwise to the table. The cutting tool was on the end of a long rod (wooden I think) with the helix cut int the length of the rod. That rod was fed into the bore through a block on the table that had a guide hole and a peg that rode in the helical slot making the rod turn as it was fed into the bore. Each pass cut a groove in the barrelm Multiple lands and grooves were indexed by turning the barrel in it's blocks. A six sided barrel yielded a six land and groove rifling job. The gunsmith on sight told me that was w hy old guns of the era w ere generalu hexagonal on the outside, to facilitate this type of early American rifling machine. I was 15 years old at the time, and even then an avid gun nut. I hag asked the question "How did they do rifling" at the end of his scheduled presentation and was rew arded with the long lesson that no one else stuck around to learn. Their loss. Living here in America, I can get used or new barrels or blanks no problem. For now. Those of you living in places w here you can't buy them may well want to build a rifling table. On the other hand, shotguns are inherently easier to make barrels for, and relatively easy to make amunition for. It may be easier to make a 410 or a 12g rifled slug mould and just shoot a slug that stabilizes itself. Food for thought. Make an amunition to suit your barrel options.

iHME

October 8th, 2008, 11:22 AM

I have plans for that kind of rifling machine! http://rapidshare.com/files/152047050/How_to_Build_the_Antique_Rifling_Machine.pdf It uses mainly lumber for everything and if I understood correctly, rather easy to make. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Blueprints for .50BMG - Archive File Anthony

March 17th, 2003, 08:41 PM

DocPhelps A new voice Posts: 3 From: Backwoods, Kentucky Registered: JAN 2001 posted January 15, 2001 11:02 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Does anyone have any blueprints for the .50BMG. I've seen then on the web for around $120.00 to $175.00 but after material cost that's a little to high for me. -----------------DocPhelps

Mmanwitgun Frequent Poster Posts: 170 From: Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 16, 2001 12:37 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you make a .50 gun, I can give you one peice of advice. Buy the barrel. When you are using something as powerful as that you don't want to fuck around w ith a homemade barrel. ~Dave

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 16, 2001 01:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Boo Hoo...*Sobing* Know how am I supposed to kill Myself and make it look like an accident. >;-|> -----------------A wise man once said: "... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And, The First Shall Become last" --RATM Agent Blak-------OUT!!

DaRkDwArF Frequent Poster Posts: 258 From: Australia Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 16, 2001 07:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------lol, and w here the hell do you expect to get half decent non WWII ammo for this thing?

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 16, 2001 08:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Where do you expect to get a .50cal barrel from? -----------------A wise man once said: "... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And, The First Shall Become last" --RATM Agent Blak-------OUT!!

radar Frequent Poster Posts: 64 From: Redding California Registered: DEC 2000 posted January 16, 2001 08:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you want ammo for it, go to a gun shop, they sell ammo for them, they cost about 40 bucks for 10 rounds though.

DocPhelps A new voice Posts: 3 From: Backwoods, Kentucky Registered: JAN 2001 posted January 16, 2001 10:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I bought my barrel from The Gun Parts Corp. out of NY. I paid $132.00 for a .50 cal M2HB. The ammo, I buy from Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, KY. for $1.25 a round. I can get it in Ball, AP, & APIT. The ammo is also dated between 1974 thru 1994. I'm working on my own design for the receiver, but the steel material is what I'm having a problem with. One shop said that I need to use 4140 or 4340 tool steel and that Stainless wasn't strong enough. But then again LAR Grizley makes them completly out of Stainless. [This message has been edited by DocPhelps (edited January 16, 2001).]

Maddoc Moderator Posts: 536 From: Dizneland Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 17, 2001 03:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------DOC: I want to go the Knob Creek gun/flamethrower/bang show this year. Have you ever been, what is it like. You can but .50BMG online for $2.50 per round. I belive NBK has an M2... or am I hallucinaing from those fumes again? -----------------Whoa, where my fingers?

Agent Blak

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Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 17, 2001 04:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------What are "APIT" rounds? -----------------A wise man once said: "... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And, The First Shall Become last" --RATM Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Smartguy A new voice Posts: 11 From: Registered: JAN 2001 posted January 17, 2001 05:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer (at least, I think so..) Checked Jane's Infantry Weapons: APIT M20 boat tailed, pointed, steel core, 39.66 g bullet, Vo 888 m/s is indeed armor piercing incendiary tracer. [This message has been edited by Smartguy (edited January 17, 2001).]

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted January 17, 2001 06:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanx We don't have A lot of .50cal rifles up here. -----------------A wise man once said: "... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And, The First Shall Become last" --RATM Agent Blak-------OUT!!

DocPhelps A new voice Posts: 3 From: Backwoods, Kentucky Registered: JAN 2001 posted January 17, 2001 08:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Machine Gun shoot at Knob Creek is really something to see. Every kind of Semi or Full Auto you can think of is there. Everything from .22cal to 40mm. Flamethrowers, nighttime tracer shoots, blowing up cars w ith dyamite. You can rent a weapon from the owner, and buy the rounds, and you can fire anything you w ant to. It's really something to see. The next shoot is from april 5th thru the 8th. If you can make it it will be something you won't forget. I will be there Saturday & sunday, hope to meet ya'll. You w ere right. The APIT is an Armor Pierceing Incenerary Tracer round. It has a tip made of Thermite. When it hits the target the Thermite lights, and w ith that and the force of impact it drives the solid Tungsten Carbide insert through. It will penetrate 3" of armor plate at 100yds. Send an e-mail address and I will send you a RealPlayer Clip of the Marine Corps testing different .50cal rounds

smokey A new voice Posts: 7 From: newcastle nsw australia Registered: JAN 2001 posted February 07, 2001 02:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------you may find that the stainless steel used is 440 grade or pehaps better.....have a fat time

BoBFrequent Poster Posts: 651 From: Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 08, 2001 05:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anyone seen this? http://ww w.birdman.org/products/jaded.htm hahaha.

Anthony Moderator Posts: 2312 From: England Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 08, 2001 05:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Cool, this site again! I'd lost the URL to it. Check out some of the other stuff they've got! The 300 round Uzi mag is great!

HMTD Factory Frequent Poster Posts: 217 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted February 08, 2001 06:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------HAHA, I think jumping off a bridge will kill oneself without spending 28 bucks. It is guaranteed to fire "one shot" now what is that supposed to mean? I don't even think the pipe barrel will stand the pressure. Not to mention that the gun is "breechless". Imagine some kids place their heads right next to the exposed case head trying to align the "1X scope", what will happen if the cartridge ruptures and sends out white hot jet? If it happened in a firearm it will ruin the action, bear that in mind. Where is the 300round uzi mag? I need to see some magazine designs.

Anthony

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Moderator Posts: 2312 From: England Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 08, 2001 08:10 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www .birdman.org/productlist.htm

vehemt Frequent Poster Posts: 580 From: Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 09, 2001 01:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------The site is a joke, good site though. The 1x scope is a beautiful piece.

Bitter Frequent Poster Posts: 291 From: 11 Dow ning Street, London, England Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 09, 2001 02:37 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Does anyone here remember when that Birdman guy posted here offering us all a discount on that KeWl gun of his ?

vehemt Frequent Poster Posts: 580 From: Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 09, 2001 03:34 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hahaha, w e shouldnt have flamed him away, damnit. My airsoft glock 17 needs some homeboy night sites.

Birdman A new voice Posts: 9 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted February 14, 2001 01:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------You didn't "Flame me away". I still loom here every once and a w hile. I can follow the websites where my pics are physically "linked" via the stats function on my birdman.org website. That's how I found this w ebsite (and your thread). I think someone must have thought I was a genuine "serious business" and jumped all over me for trying to sell all of my BWS products to fellow posters. I reciprocated with some kind of reply like: ""Fine then! ... because you have failed to recognize my pow er and authority in the weapons community I w ill no longer allow any posters on this forum to purchase my products!" ... just to stir it up even more. Sorry! This was also meant only in humor. I hope nobody w ould actually consider taking me seriously. I have too much fun with this BWS stuff to get all pissy and such. If anyone really DOES get mad at me, then I'll have BWS's East German Engineering Specialists "Hans" come and kick their ass! I'll check in from time to time. New products (and video clips) coming soon. -----------------Sincerely, Birdman Birdman Weapons Systems, Inc "Unfriendly Products for an Unfriendly World" http://www .birdman.org Email: [email protected]

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 02:08 AM

I have plans for a .50 BMG rifle Id have built it by now if not for the barrel problems Does any one think that a barrel could e made i was thinking of something like this Ok you have you home made 50 cal barrel coved with fibreglass matting and encased in maybe a few layers of pvc pipe I have a PDF from Crapden Press (Palden press) that states that you can make a Recoilless Rocket launcher out of pvc pipe and fibre glass you simply cover you first pvc pine in fibre glass till it get to the next size up of pipe and cover it w ith that or cut the pipe and put it over the fibre glass I think this is highly dubious as it uses "cookies" to reduce the recoil I may start a new thread on Recoilless launchers il go search the Archives

Anthony

April 29th, 2003, 03:46 PM

Don't you think that there'd be a small difference in chamber pressure between an improvised recoiless rocket launcher, and a .50BMG?!

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Anthony Don't you think that there'd be a small difference in chamber pressure between an improvised recoiless rocket launcher, and a .50BMG?! No I think you misunderstood me you have your home made barrel Then your fibre glass govering over that you have a pvc pipe or a aluiminum pipe this is for safty so if the pressure is to much for the orignal barrell you dont get ahhh damaged

Mmanwitgun88

April 30th, 2003, 01:23 AM

If you can't buy an old surplus barrel, not sure how I could help. Once you get past that problem you might find this link interesting Homemade 50 (http:// action_enterprise.tripod.com/FiftyPro.htm) ~Dave

HypersonicGamer

April 30th, 2003, 01:25 AM

Please don't hurt yourself and buy some proper plans...

I_am_the_Black_one

April 30th, 2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by HypersonicGamer Please don't hurt yourself and buy some proper plans... I do have proper plans and Id buy a barrel but What THEY dont know can Hurt THEM :D Although thanks for the concern

Anthony

April 30th, 2003, 03:45 PM

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If your piece of thick walled, seamless steel tubing fails, a few w raps of GRP and a PVC pipe won't save you. Better you have tw or more tubes that fit inside on another. A piece of seamless hydraulic tubing w ould be best, even the larger diameter sizes are rated for several tens of thousands of PSI.

HypersonicGamer

April 30th, 2003, 07:39 PM

You could use a car axle. Also, the seamless hydraulic tubing would have to be fairly thick in order to work.

xyz

April 30th, 2003, 10:13 PM

Not really, if it's rated for the pressures stated by Anthony then it should be fine, smokeless powder reaches pressures of about 8000psi IIRC. Plus, the powder used in .50BMG cartridges would probably be a reasonably slow one because of the size of the cartridge.

zaibatsu

April 30th, 2003, 10:15 PM

For someone w ho can't buy 9mm brass, how do you expect to get the components for .50 BMG rounds? And what kind of protection do you think GRP w ill give you from a .50? Make the barrel correctly, sleeving smaller diameter tubes to increase the strength may be fine for much smaller calibres, but not for something like a .50BMG. I think the steel usually used for barrels is 4140 (correct me if I'm wrong here), get yourself a piece about 35" long by 1.5" diameter, and bore the correct hole in that. Then you've got to get a chamber reamer etc...

I_am_the_Black_one

May 1st, 2003, 03:24 AM

Ok i thought we had alredy cleared this up 9mm SMG You can buy .50 cal rounds in aus so its no problem I was just thinking that the fibre glass pvc covering would show down frags if a rupture ocurred. Il go see if i can buy some hydrolic tubing If not my grand father has a very large tractor........:D

HypersonicGamer

May 1st, 2003, 11:25 AM

Are you saying 9mm brass for SMGs are different? Or are you saying that you can now put together a fifty after failing to construct an SMG? :confused:

zaibatsu

May 1st, 2003, 12:32 PM

9mm submachine guns fire the 9mm parabellum round. So does the browning high-power (pistol), so does the SIG-Sauer P220 (pistol), so does the Beretta 92F (pistol) so does the CZ75 (pistol) so does the Steyr GB (pistol) so does the..... The ammunition used in smgs is not in any w ay different to that used in pistols to my knowledge. Whether it has higher loadings or not I can't say - but that isn't to do with a different cartridge case.

Anthony

May 1st, 2003, 02:39 PM

SMGs run on bog standard pistol ammo, AFAIK. Actually, Zaibatsu's idea is much better than the hydraulic tubing, you do have a lathe and are a machinest afterall, so it should be no problem.

xyz

May 1st, 2003, 08:39 PM

Something that I have alw ays wondered, where does one find a drill bit that is 35" long so that one can drill out the barrel?

I_am_the_Black_one

May 1st, 2003, 11:23 PM

Hyper sonic STFU!!! I have sevral smgs the run of the mill ammo jams them on me. Thats w hy i buy military brass and do it that w ay..... ID machine the barrel but what I was thinking about w as added safty.You cant muck around with a 50 cal cause I know who would win the Fight:D Im on the bolt for it I have for it The rest is done sept the barrel I think il use hydrollic Piping for it. Next problem is making a decent stock altough I could go to the gun store and telling I was making a toy gun for my Lil brother (I dont have one!!) And con a stock that way:D It would be sinthetic tho and need alotta mods to it :rolleyes: OH the joys of making your own firearms covertly

kingspaz

May 2nd, 2003, 07:16 PM

I've had enough of this! This is why w e used to weed out the shit immidiately. It spares people from having to decypher shit like what is typed above! Now, for the LAST time w ill you spell w ords correctly and put full stops at the end of EVERY sentence. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Having trouble understanding the plans? - Archive File Log in

View Full Version : Having trouble understanding the plans? - Archive File Anthony

March 17th, 2003, 08:51 PM

Azazel Frequent Poster Posts: 91 From: ... Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 02, 2001 11:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------ok so most of us here would have seen or had access to plans on building firearms from scratch! Often at times i pull out these plans, look them over once but put them away because i have trouble understanding how the trigger assembly works or how this or that works... so why not make up a little discussion on all of this... if you have any links or sites that you know of which have good definitions of the parts which make up a firearm [bolt, firing pin, trigger assmebly, sear, hammer] or has nice cut away diagrams, please paste the link on here. If you know how to rifle barrels and all the equipment needed to do this please feel free to give your opinion or explanation.... Even if you have seen somebody make one or have had any experiences please feel free to share your knowledge. ANY INFORMATION OF SUCH NATURE TO DO WITH FABRICTION OR WORKINGS OF A FIREARM please paste it here... im currently looking over .22 machine pistol plans... interesting but even after reading it like 4 times, i cant work out how the trigger assembly works darn it !

The Real Frequent Poster Posts: 136 From: Columbus, OH Registered: DEC 2000 posted February 02, 2001 11:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't think I've seen good plans for a making a complete firearm. I have seen good plans though for auto sears and conversion templates. http://www.araby-dalbo.com/users/1196/161/ruger.html that site if remember correctly has some drawings for full auto parts for the ruger 10/22. Conversion are much easier than building guns from scratch. I onced helped out a guy that is a Class 2 gunsmith, I observed make a few legal conversions of Ruger 10/22's, 3 AK's and 1 SKS. The SKS was the easiest, the disconnector is located on the underside of the hammer and just sheared off. A piece of metal is welded on the trigger frame to prevent the sear from falling. In that manner the sear is engaged as long as the trigger is pulled and it the weapon keeps firing. Don't try anything with a Marlin 60, pretty hard to figure out.

Azazel Frequent Poster Posts: 91 From: ... Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 18, 2001 12:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------thanx for the help bro any other sites people ?

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 18, 2001 12:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------One way you could try to rifle a barrel is to place something in side the barrel with the pattern of rifling that you want. Then you heat up the steel and hit hit the outside of the barrel. This will force it to fill the grooves and leave you with a rifling. This just an Idea. -----------------A wise man once said: "...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But, Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins" Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Anthony Moderator Posts: 2312 From: England Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 18, 2001 07:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Imagine the pressure required to do that! Isn't that how they cold form barrels nowdays? Simply squeeze trhe barrel around a "mould"?

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 765 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 18, 2001 09:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think the person that told me about it said it was a Europian method(originally). -----------------A wise man once said: "...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But, Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins" Agent Blak-------OUT!!

HMTD Factory Frequent Poster Posts: 217 From: Registered: FEB 2001

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posted February 18, 2001 10:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------It's called "hammer forge" A Ruger 10/22 Target model has a hammer forged barrel.(So does a CZ 75) Hammer forge actually hammer a block of steel into a barrel. There are multiple hammers striking at the same time. Because the barrel is pre-stressed, so there's no stress problem in the barrel. It's also a cheaper process but it doesn't beat botton rifling.

BaDSeeD Frequent Poster Posts: 80 From: buffalo, ny Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 19, 2001 04:07 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thats button rifling HMTD -----------------BaDSeeD Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.

HMTD Factory Frequent Poster Posts: 217 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted February 19, 2001 01:13 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am glad I didn't say "bottom" rifling.

Bitter Frequent Poster Posts: 291 From: 11 Downing Street, London, England Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 19, 2001 01:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I suppose you had best leave 'bottom rifling' to that Tyrone chap.

angelo Frequent Poster Posts: 281 From: Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 19, 2001 11:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Azazel... a tip, don't start with an automatic firearm straight away... i started to make the 9mm submachine gun that p.a luty devised. although the method is supposed to be simple it is quite hard. i suggest you start your self from the bottom and work your way up. i started by making my own knives, then my own swords, then worked up to a bow and arrow, then a crossbow. and now i am making a single shot shot gun. i don't know how far i will go. i suggest you go and find a machine shop somewhere, and ask if you could learn the basics, like welding, soldering, cutting and bending metal. i went to a furniture manufacturer and i started to help the technicians repairing the machines, once i gained some trust they taught me all this stuff i did not know about. its brilliant. oh yeah and by the way, look out for plans on my single shot shotgun

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 03:05 AM

You can rifle your own barrels with a lathe with a few improvised bits if any one is interested I Can wip up a few diagrams it also depends on the twist you have to make a few parts to slow down the speed of the lathe this is also theroretically possable to be done with a drill press vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Weapon Plans shootersharp

July 26th, 2001, 03:04 AM

Where can i get plans for homemade weapons, submachine guns etc.??? (or where can i buy weapons without a license in Europe?) because i live in Germany, and its very hard here to get guns! NEEDS HELP!!!

Azazel

July 26th, 2001, 05:57 AM

look around for Sten MkII plans type that in on a search engine shouldnt be too hard to find

shootersharp

July 26th, 2001, 08:04 AM

Thanks! But the search engines found not something what was real good for making a submachine gun! And normaly i would prefere to buy a complete Gun! Is there no way????

Heavy Recoil

July 26th, 2001, 11:06 AM

Have any good files of of explosives drugs or weapons, I have a few that I didnt trade to Victim, but I wont give them to anyone for free. sten machinist plans and a homemade subgun file I am making. -----------------"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein

shootersharp

July 26th, 2001, 11:25 AM

Please send me the files! Thanks!

Victim

July 26th, 2001, 08:07 PM

Sorry for the lack of books, Im on 56k like I said, and hosting a FTP with a crappy dial up just wont work, so I will wait till I have cable modem, or will try and find somewhere that has a lot of storage space, I might use a web host and a program to split the files into say 500kb files, so I will be able to put a few of the books on there, (as topcities only allow 150mb) hopfully I will have some time spare soon (work..)

shootersharp

July 27th, 2001, 01:43 AM

Waiting there for you...

J

July 27th, 2001, 07:13 AM

Have you thought about using usenet? Just find one of the many empty binary groups, and both parties post their stuff there. It would be simple enough to password protect the zip files in case anyone was lurking in the group. The advantage is that you can post gigs of files in one chunk (not a good idea though, anyone who has an automatic time cut-off won't be able to download the file). If you don't subscribe to a news server (or your ISP's server is crap) find one at http:// www.newzbot.com/ that allows posting. I think there's a free posting service (that will be listed) run by one of the major providers, it ought to allow binaries. If anyone is interested in doing this, I'll upload some of my stuff. J -----------------Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/ &.src=bc&.view=l) PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

The_Coyote

July 27th, 2001, 11:12 PM

these aren't really plans but are a good basis for designs. They are exploded views of various makes of firarms. www.urbanarmory.com/blueprints.htm (http://www.urban-armory.com/blueprints.htm) -----------------Gun control is being able to hit your target. [This message has been edited by The_Coyote (edited July 27, 2001).]

Ragnar Go to www.wetworx.com (http://www.wetworx.com) They have the complete sten mk2 machinist plans under the "conversions" link I believe.

July 29th, 2001, 03:35 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter twinkle

August 17th, 2001, 12:09 PM

go to : http://pinfire4.homestead.com/Patents5.html http://www.derringer.de/index2.htm the first one is of a patent for a 2mm pinfire gun which only contains of three moving parts and two coil springs and the second one is a German site of all kind of information about derringers it has drawings as well

nbk2000

August 19th, 2001, 12:46 PM

Here's a forum dedicated to storage on the net. It's oriented to porn videos, but storage space is storage space. Read and learn. http://bbs.bianca.com/mforums/s/seymorebuttz/ -----------------"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them" Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF. Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos. [This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 19, 2001).]

herrbauer

August 19th, 2001, 01:10 PM

Sorry, but find guns in Germany (such as Sten MkII) would be almost impossible. One alternative is to search in Tcheck replubic or Italian border, but bring it to Germany is a hard task. The Bundesgrenzeschutz (border police) wouldn't let you breath while in German border. Anyway, try to buy old WWII guns in personal collections and modify it so it can fire. Aufwiedersehen.

twinkle

September 3rd, 2001, 03:09 PM

Here you can find the drawings of the ppsh41 and the thomson submachine gun http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/2978/

viper01

October 1st, 2001, 08:43 AM

Is this any use to you? I know there arent any dimensions that is for you to work out. http://liverdyne.50megs.com/images/smg01.jpg -----------------Happiness is a big bang!

[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited October 01, 2001).]

Scientist

November 4th, 2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by herrbauer Sorry, but find guns in Germany (such as Sten MkII) would be almost impossible. No it's not impossible. I know someone who knows a (illegal) gun dealer. So it's not impossible. If you don't know anyone you still can get in contact with people at train stations. Maybe you'll just find some guys who are selling drugs, but for a small fee they will certainly remember someone who sells guns. If build a gun yourself you still have the problem of getting ammunition. For this you still have to get in contact with criminal elements.

Iknownothing

November 13th, 2003, 08:47 PM

A lot of battles took place all over Germany. So research where they where. Try to find one that took place outside a small town. Then get a metal detector, you can find guns this way I know of people who do. Once you know what gun you got rebuild it. If you are lucky you will find one not to rusted. This is also a good way to get ammo. (if the ammo was in a box it may still be good)

----------------Well sh!t

AsylumSeaker

November 14th, 2003, 05:31 AM

The previous post about checking out the old battlesites with a metal detector is not as stupid as it may sound. Anything buried in the dirt will be totaly fucked, but if you manage to find an old bunker or a weapons storage place it may have some useful things in it. If not working weapons, then perhaps you can find spare peices to make your own weapons. This can be done all around the world. In the vietcong tunnels in vietnam there are hundreds of unfound weapons. Even here in australia you can find relics along the coast leftover from ww2.

steyr shootersharp - You can mail me, I have very short and easy drawings of: "Slap" 12-Gauge Zipgun

November 23rd, 2003, 03:58 PM

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Simple Improvised 9mm (or .38 caliber) Pipe Pistol 22 LR or .22 short Improvised Pipe Pistol Carbine (7.62 mm NATO) Simple Improvised 12 gauge Shotgun Improved Pipe Gun Design (bolt action) Match Gun Improvised Grenade Launcher M79 Design Mortars It's very short so I can zip them and send to you.

FragmentedSanity

November 24th, 2003, 05:49 AM

steyr - Why not upload your plans to a web page so everyone can benifit. There are lots of free file storage sites around then you only have to put it up once and then post us a link. Given the number of times we get asked for weapon plans its fairly safe to assume that lots of people would like to look at them.

Garbage

November 24th, 2003, 10:44 AM

Here are some books that can help you: Zips Pipes And Pens - J. David Truby - 20 Mb E x p e d i e n t Homema de Firearms 9mm Submachinegun 30 MB Home Workshop Guns - 9mm Machine Pistol 34 MB Home Workshop Prototype Firea rms 45MB Home Workshop Firearms - Two P istol Designs 4 MB Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol 5 MB The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm The others were too big to put in the ftp. These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg

steyr

November 24th, 2003, 11:36 AM

I can put them to ftp, but they are in two .html files, so I can upload them to my www account. I'll do it in my free time. Maybe someone can make thread "Offering - Looking for" in the LINKS AND LITERATURE forum when we collect more offers? Garbage, you scared me! That photo shows what happens when you didn't do a "test fire" before using zip gun. It's necessary to shot few bullets far away from you.

kvitekrist

November 24th, 2003, 12:12 PM

My shotgun was made with the simplest of tools. An angle grinder and a powerdrill did most of the work. http://geocities.com/osteknopp/shotgun.html here is some pictures.. blueprints wil come.

anyways.. It's 12gauge hammerfired break action :)

steyr

November 24th, 2003, 01:13 PM

Yeah, preety one. What do you think about this drawings? It will work? LINK FOR THE DRAWINGS OF SHOTGUN (http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/shotgundraw.gif)

McGyver

November 24th, 2003, 03:54 PM

Anyone have a pdf on how to do a full-auto conversion on an AK? Edit: Link (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=686&highlight=conversion+AK47)

steyr

November 24th, 2003, 05:38 PM

What inner diameter of pipe is used for .22 rimshot? I forgot it :D I'll be grateful for centimeters.

NickSG

November 24th, 2003, 06:50 PM

6mm pipe is perfect for .22LR and under. I just got through making a tiny .22 zipgun. Its less than 3 1/2 inches long and less than 1 1/2 inches high. IOWs, it can fit just about anywhere, and it still packs a punch. It went through a sheet of 14 gauge steel, so its far from a toy. :)

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Garbage

November 24th, 2003, 08:14 PM

The truth abo ut the accidents is that even the tested gu ns can fail; this is caused by many motives no t jus t wrong test Incorrect materials like thin pipes after a long time of use can create many fissures in the parts of the guns that receive the tension, after some time al the system is in weariness and soon it will explode or just fail. One of most common problem in guns is the dirty and the rust of propellant s b urn. All these problems can be solve with a good project, appropriates test and conservation of it. Remember that every time that you pull the trigger an explo sion h a p p e n s near of your face, if the projectile bar the barrel will certain explo de

dana_m_h

November 24th, 2003, 10:08 PM

i am making a screw action 12ga shotgun similar th thae one up there but closer to the one ine the sten gun forum i will post results

Rhadon

November 25th, 2003, 03:43 AM

dana_m_h: i am making a screw action 12ga shotgun similar th thae one up there but closer to the one ine the sten gun forum i will post results I hope that you read my email.

steyr

November 25th, 2003, 11:50 AM

NICKSG: I have BB gun, it has alluminium barrel (6mm) and .22 bullet has too much free space. I thought that I can use 5,5 mm steel barrel with 3mm wall. What do you think? Are .22's powerful enough to kick? That's small bullet, so kick must be small, isn't it?

NickSG

November 25th, 2003, 06:18 PM

My .22LR combo (which weighs nearly 2 pounds, or about a kilogram) doesnt kick near as bad a standard pressure 9mm cartridges, although you do get a recoil. The recoil is soft, but it manages to lift the muzzle about 1 inch with a firm handle. The pipe I made my .22 zipgun with is 6mm ID. The .22LR is 5.56mm in diameter, so the fit isnt that loose. The walls must be at least 3mm though. The .22 is a much higher pressure cartridge than most people think it is, so unless you have a strong pipe the barrel will rupture. Always test fire it no less than 30 feet away from you before firing it in your hands. Look for any stress marks, and if there arent any, then the pipe is strong enough.

Radiant

November 25th, 2003, 07:00 PM

at http://www.varkoume.com/shared/index.php?usr=Aquilifer88 there are lot of ebooks on homemade weapons and such, free to download. you need emule though... and i know some of the files (actually a lot of the files) there have some "questionable" contents, but lots of the stuff is good tough.

Jacks Complete

November 25th, 2003, 07:06 PM

As a way to try to keep some of you guys a little safe, how about you look at how the pros test if a gun is safe? Look up "Proof testing" and see the accepted way that almost every gun in the UK for the past 300 years has been tested, and try that. Obviously, if you let your gun rust to bits, it will still fail!

xyz

November 27th, 2003, 04:22 AM

To clear a few things up... The .22LR bullet is not 5.56mm in diameter, because it is actually .223 and not .22, and therefore it is 5.66mm. The diameter of the casing (note to newbies, casing, not rim) is even larger, being 5.71mm, so your pipe has to be at least 5.71mm to accomodate a .22LR. This means that .22LR definitely won't fit in a 5.5mm barrel (so don't bother trying steyr). If you want info on cartridges then go to ammoguide, it is an excellent resource for zipgun makers. Ammoguide (http:// www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/)

NickSG

November 27th, 2003, 03:11 PM

5.56 and .223 are the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to shoot a .223 winchester from a .5.56mm.

Ammonal

November 27th, 2003, 07:09 PM

XYZ and NickSG you are both close to the truth, but not quite. The calibre of a barrel is given as the diameter of the rifling grooves and the islands in between. Thus a 5.56mm projectile = 5.56/25= 0.2224", and a .223= .223*25=5.575mm. This is the OD of the projectile that is the part of the projectile that is gripped by the rifling grooves. The difference in diameter is only negligable and allows .223 to be fired in a 5.56 and vice versa. If you need a barrel for a .22, use piece of 20mm mild steel rod and a 15/64 drill bit to drill the chamber, and a 5.5mm drill for the barrel. Now before you say "that is insane it is way too small" take a round chainsaw file that fits into your barrel and put a power drill onto the end of the file and spin it with a small amount of oil on the file moving the file in and out of the barrel. this enlarges the bore by a few thousands. once this is done. Get some steel wool, put a ball of it onto the end of a piece of steel rod and run the wool up and down the barrel with a twisting motion. Doing so leaves lots of small scratches in a

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slightly spiral direction. Whether this helps, is unknown to me but a 3" inch barrel made in this way shoots a cluster of 8" at 20 metres. If you do not wish to take the time and effort just get the longest 15/64 drill available and drill the hole barrel with it. It is oversize but it works and is very quick to produce. If the barrel is made in this manner to unload you would have to poke the empty shell out of the chamber using a piece of rod or similar.

ossassin

November 27th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Yes, a .223 is 5.56mm. To my knowledge, all of the bullets that you've mentioned have the same diameter, such as a .22 short, .22, .22LR and .223. If you want your gun to be accurate enough to even be classified as a firearm, your barrel must have a diameter that is equal to or smaller than that of the bullet. The rim at the rear of the casing is NOT designed to actually enter the barrel. :rolleyes: In fact, it doesn't even enter the chamber. Although it will make the project more complicated, I would definately suggest making a chamber that is seperate from the barrel. Also, how are you planning on rifling the barrel? I hope you're not going to use a smoothbore! :eek: One last suggestion: since the .22 is such a small caliber that generates so little pressure, how about supressing it? The supressor itself would be much easier to make than the gun, and in modern warfare, you would probably not last long with a homemade .22 that's not supressed (audio supressor, not flash.) That's an entirely different topic, though. Edit: I'm sorry for repeating all of that. You must have posted while I was typing mine, Ammonal. A tube with some steel-wool scratches is NOT a barrel: not one that will last long, anyway. You need to grind grooves in a uniform spiral down the barrel. I have no idea how to do this. The grooves should be fairly thin and shallow. Since the projectile is so short, the rifling would not have to be very tight in order to stablize it. 1:12 (1 rotation for every 12 inches) or less ought to be fine. The cartridge should fit in the chamber snugly, but should slide in easily. For reliability purposes, you might want to consider throating the chamber.

PHAID

November 27th, 2003, 09:36 PM

For the purpose of a zip gun the rifling is a nice option but not needed. 90% of shootings are at around 7 feet so for its purpose a smooth barrel will do fine. I have made several zip guns in .22cal for testing and with a standard 1/8in pipe they work quite well up to around 30ft befor accuracy is aa big issue. As for silencers for them its quite easy to make simple ones that work reasonably well but if you want good sound reduction it takes some work. (not that id try it due to the legal issues);)

ossassin

November 27th, 2003, 10:02 PM

I wonder how hard it would be to integrate a silencer into the barrel design. Many models of guns do this, but I don't know how the mechanics would work. Does anybody know anything about that?

NickSG

November 27th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Rifling a zipgun barrel is pointless, although it does increase the bullets velocity (and accuracy, of course). I wouldnt bother with it through. A 4 inch smooth barrel will easily get the bullet over 900 FPS, plenty of velocity to do some serious damage, and from just 10 feet away you can hit a pop can 4 out of 5 times. A couple of months ago I posted a link on how to make a simple suppressor. I dont have time to look for it right now, but it shouldnt be too hard to find.

ossassin

November 28th, 2003, 01:36 AM

Well, I guess it really depends on the intended use. Are you making this because you want a gun and can't legally purchase one, or are you making it for a one-time-use thing where you'll have to sneak up behind someone and plug 'em? (I'm not saying that one should do this, but I'm simply addressing the possible applications of such a "zip" gun.) If you want a good gun that you can keep to use whenever you may need one, such as with a burgler or in a "when the shit hits the fan" situation, you'd probably want a rifled barrel. They are more accurate and more durable. Commercial smoothbore firearms are unheard of. If you just need a gun to...erm...take care of someone, by all means, go with the smoothbore. It's fast, simple, cheap, and gets the job done at close range. Ultimately, it's up to you and what the gun will have to be capable of. Edit: When i stated that commercial smoothbore firearms were unheard of, I meant breach-loaded firearms (not muzzleloaders.) I'm sorry for the confusion.

xyz

November 28th, 2003, 07:49 AM

NickSG, I didn't say that 5.56mm was different from .223, I just said that .22LR was .223 in diameter (not .22) and that this is actually bigger than 5.56mm (which you said was the diameter of a .22LR). Incidentally, the 5.56mm bullet is actually .224 in diameter and so is quite a bit bigger than 5.56mm. Use ammoguide for gods sake.

dana_m_h

November 28th, 2003, 12:59 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I am not going to point fingers but many companies build and sell smooth bore... but they are blackpowder... You cant make a rifle a smoothbore because therefore it is nolonger a rifle it is a shotgun as a figure of speech. If you really want to try to get a rifled barel it still can be bigger than you need but it wont be accurate, to make it more accurate you can do what many blackpowder rifles do, that is use a patch. Also your bullet's patch must be greased or the bullet could rip through the patch and leave it in your barel, leavin you with a mess and a problem... do what you want, but there is always a downside even if it is professionaly manufactured: pro manufactured will make you need a permit or will leave a paper trail... so youve always got a downside EDIT: grammer

Arkangel

November 28th, 2003, 01:19 PM

5.56 and .223 are the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be able to shoot a .223 winchester from a .5.56mm. So how does that work with interchanging .38 and .357 ammo? I always understood you could swap them - maybe it was using the .357 in the larger barrel. Maybe it was that lead bullets are more malleable. Maybe I just don't have a clue what I'm talking about?:p Speaking of which dana, wtf are YOU going on about? Your downside appears when you start writing. Might I venture to suggest that you think a little more before you post? What size are people reaming their zip barrels? I always thought they were 5.5mm, as that's a more common ream size.

ossassin

November 28th, 2003, 03:28 PM

Dana, I was not talking about muzzleloaders! Seeing as how muzzleloaders are obsolete in modern warfare, I was correct in saying that smoothbores are obsolete. :rolleyes: A rifled barrel will be more accurate than a smoothbore, and for reasonable accuracy, the barrel can not be larger than the bullet. A makeshift smoothbore could be larger, but since it won't have riflings, it's going to be a piece of crap, anyway. It would work at close range, but it's definately not something I'd bet my life on.

NickSG

November 28th, 2003, 04:05 PM

The .38 special is actually .357 caliber., but do not confuse the .38 special with other .38 calibers. The .38 S&W is .36, and the .38 super is .355, I think. The .380 is also .355. The .38 special can be shot from a .357 wheelgun, but a .357 magnum can not be shot through a .38 special. The .357 magnum is loaded to much higher pressures than the .38 special, not to mention the magnum is about 1/4 inch longer.

xyz

November 28th, 2003, 08:47 PM

Arkangel, I have never tried but from the info I have, there is no way you could even get the .22LR bullet (according to ammoguide - 5.66mm) into a 5.5mm hole, let alone the casing (which ammoguide says is 5.71mm).

And before anyone says that the casing isn't meant to fit into the barrel, this may be true with most firearms but it makes zipguns much more simple if the casing does fit (note: I am talking about the casing, not the rim). The other advantage to having a barrel a bit large is that your zipgun will be able to fire all .22 Rimfire calibres interchangeably (yes, even .22Mag, because there is enough extra space for it's slighlty larger diameter case). 6mm sounds like the best diameter for .22 Zips, and if you really wanted a bullet that was a good fit, you could use a .243 bullet with a .22 blank behind it (make sure your gun is strong because a heavier bullet means much higher chamber pressures).

ossassin

November 29th, 2003, 07:02 PM

xyz, it was designed for a 5.56mm barrel, despite what "ammoguide" may say. It's common knowledge. Assuming that the barrel is rifled, the bullet will deform inside of the barrel. This is what allows you to use a barrel with a smaller diameter than that of the bullet. I don't really know what a smoothbore would do to the bullet. It might work.

xyz

November 29th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Ah, OK then. Wouldn't the barrel start off as 5.66mm though and then taper down? I ask because if the barrel was 5.56mm as soon as it started, then wouldn't you be unable to chamber the round? And don't speak dubiously of ammoguide, it is an excellent program with the cartridge and bullet dimensions for pretty much any commercial or wildcat round you can think of. The error was entirely on my part. I still wouldn't want to try that with a smoothbore because of there being no "empty space" between the rifling grooves for the bullet to squash into. I suppose that in a rifled barrel, having it 0.1mm too small would help the bullet to grip the rifling, but there is no advantage to that with a smoothbore.

ossassin

November 30th, 2003, 01:54 AM

XYZ, I just took out my trusty .30-06 to answer your question. A bullet would not fit in the muzzle end of the barrel. Also, the bore seemed to ohave a consistent windth. From what I could tell without completely dismantling it was that a bullet would not fit in the breach end of the barrel. The part of the chamber that holds the bullet was significantly smaller than the bore. The force created when the rifle is fired must be strong enough to cause the bullet to instantly deform. Once some of the metal has been pressed into the rifling grooves, so that the bullet has essentially shrunken to the width of the bore, the bullet is spun and stablized as it travels through the barrel. I hope that helps.

Ammonal

November 30th, 2003, 03:54 AM

The copy of "Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol" that I have is missing some (about 7 - 10) pages. I am quite

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disgruntled about this because it has halted my "theoretical" construction of the firearm detailed within the book. Has anyone got a complete copy of this book(Check all the page numbers)? I would greatly appreciate this and I would love to post pictures of the finished "theoretical" item.

ossassin

November 30th, 2003, 01:03 PM

Ammonal, you should find everything you need at this site (http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/book/book.htm) . This was originally posted by another member, though I don't remember who.

Ammonal

December 1st, 2003, 02:28 AM

Ossasin: Unfortunately this is where I originally sourced the book from. I just picked up the seamless pipe and some bright rod (harder than normal steel, 4130 I think) for the upper receiver and bolt respectively. I have all but finished polishing the lower receiver and have just got to polish the trigger group and then if I can get the pages on the bolt and barrel then I should be able to finish the project. Once I again if anyone has a complete copy of "Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol", could you please direct me to a source for it please.:confused:

Ammonal

December 13th, 2003, 11:03 PM

Has anyone who has a copy of this book willing to upload it and any other books? I have just gotten 150mb of hosted space and I personally want this book, and it seems that there is members that would appreciate some http storage for files of a similar nature.

xyz

December 14th, 2003, 07:16 AM

Ammonal, all 6 of the Home Workshop Firearms books are on the FTP, along with the Home Workshop Firearms video. Another 9 posts and you can apply for access.

Ammonal

December 14th, 2003, 08:03 AM

Thanks XYZ, I had not seen it written anywhere that there was a minimum number of 50 posts to get access to the FTP instead only it would be considered on the contributions made on the E&W forums.

xyz

December 15th, 2003, 06:01 AM

I have seen it somewhere but I can't remember where, IIRC it also said that members with less than 50 will be accepted under special circumstances.

FragmentedSanity

December 15th, 2003, 04:59 PM

From memory the 50 post minimum was a guideline set out by Ctrl_C way back when he first set up the FTP, aimed mostly at keeping people who had just signed up from pestering him. From memory the idea was that once a newbie had survived 50 posts they probably had a fair idea of how things work here, had contributed something to the community and could appreciate the fact that FTP access is a MAJOR privelage. As with all else here tho - sheer volume of post was never the determining factor - just a helpful guideline. Quality contributions is the way to go about getting access. If you feel youve contributed it cant hurt to go through the application procedure. Its ultimatley up to Chemwarrior to decide if your found worthy. Remember you can upload to the FTP even without an account, which is of course a nice way of contributing.

TreverSlyFox

December 16th, 2003, 10:09 AM

First lets dispell a myth. Smooth bore weapons can be accurate, are accurate, have been accurate for over 500 years. Granted a rifled barrel will be more accurate than a smooth bore if all else is equal. The Brown Bess of 1776 was a .75 caliber smooth bore musket that was accurate to between 75 - 100 yards. This was the weapon that armed the British Forces which at the time was the worlds Super Power and had not been defeated. All that is really required for an accurate smooth bore is that the bullet must be a tight fit in the barrel. Thats why in a muzzel loader you use either a "patched" round ball or an expanding base bullet. Most smooth bore shot guns will fire a slug accurately out to 75 yards and in fact most will group in 6" at 75 yards. That's because shot gun slugs are designed with an expanding base. If you want an accurate smooth bore .22LR Zip Gun then just use a barrel that is 1-2 thousandths SMALLER than the bullet itself (the bullet not the cartrage). I have made several .22LR zip guns in my misspent youth that would group 6" at 25 yards that were smooth bores. Granted that's not the 2-3" accuracy of a modern rifled hand gun but it's well within Center-of-Mass on a man size target at 25 yards. If you can find a rifled barrel for your zip gun fine, if not just find a smooth bore barrel that's a tight fit for the bullet and your still good to go. Easiest way to tell if it will work is to see if you can force the bullet down the barrel with just your thumb. If it goes in with strong thumb pressure alone and shaves a small ring of lead off the bullet it should be fine. Just an FYI: Most Police street shootings are at less the 7 yards (21 feet) with 3 rounds fired in 6 seconds.

smokepole

December 16th, 2003, 03:53 PM

I am a newbie and just want to know if anyone has built the 9mm from the Expedient homemade firearms book. It just arrived last night (hooray!) and was wondering if there was anything I should be aware of?

Jacks Complete smokepole,

December 16th, 2003, 08:12 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I have that book, bought as a vote for Luty, and against oppression. The design is superb. I have looked carefully, and see no flaws in it. An interesting project would be to turn it into a CAD model... Something to do if I ever get off these boards, perhaps!

thepyrolooz

December 18th, 2003, 04:24 PM

Steyr would you please make the books you got to a zip file, and upload it. You could always just host it on www.tripod.com Myself and i'm sure others also are interested in these books!

smokepole

December 22nd, 2003, 12:55 AM

I hope I am not speaking out of turn here, but does anyone know where to buy a 1:50 tapered reamer that isnt a fortune? or are there other alternatives? Thanks for listening to a newbie's rants.

steyr

December 22nd, 2003, 07:35 AM

Yeah, I can, but they are... hmmm... howto's? They are very short, so they aren't books. I'm going to post it in the minutes. EDIT: Thing that I want to post is WHITE RESISTANCE MANUAL, and there's more survival how to's (weapons caching, poisons)

steyr

December 22nd, 2003, 08:55 AM

There it is: steyrphotos.tripod.com/index.html

Blackhawk

December 22nd, 2003, 07:20 PM

Your link dosn't work for me, even when I copy/paste the shortcut in :S

steyr

December 22nd, 2003, 08:13 PM

Uhhh Please Note: You are no longer an authorized member of Tripod. You have been removed because your web site violated our Terms of Service or you chose to self-delete. Strange...

Ammonal

December 23rd, 2003, 01:36 AM

I have a copy and can upload it in a couple of hours if anyone shows interest

jonesy

January 9th, 2004, 04:50 AM

On the subject of plans of any nature i have a copy of most of the home workshop books and so forth but i am unable to print them, due to the light scaning of the text and images, reading of the computer is a pain in the neck. iv tried to make the pdf files more darker but have not sucedded. has anyone sucesfuly printed any of these plans??? i posted this before over a week ago but it didnt apear in the thread, so I've retried. thanks

xyz

January 9th, 2004, 10:06 PM

Ammonal, upload that please. Any E&W related files, warez, etc. are all welcome on the FTP, pretty much anything except for porn and music.

Voyager

January 10th, 2004, 12:15 AM

Steyr: I hate be negative, but... the WRM is just crap stolen from other places, edited poorly, and cobbled together. It's crap. And, because Aquilifer uploads it under dozens of different names, I've download that accursed document several dozen times. It's a scourge of the P2P networks.

Ammonal

January 10th, 2004, 01:49 AM

The file that steyr had on his website is just a copy of the White resistance manual V2.4 which I noticed is on the FTP, cant remember whether it was in E&W or uploads, but either way it will end up in E&W so... I wont bother adding another copy of something which IMO is a pretty ordinary manual and vague in most departments.

Miller

January 10th, 2004, 09:07 PM

I drew up these simple plans for a wrist mounted cross bow. I hope the fact that I did them in paint won't be a stumbling block to most people (I couldn't get acsess to a CAD program). Well I don't know how the picture shows up but if one cant figure them out, i will try to post further details. --------------------Image removed. Please make it smaller and attach it again.

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Ammonal

January 11th, 2004, 07:35 AM

Can the image in the previous post be edited so that it does not stretch the window please! It is very pleasing to see peoples new and wonderful concepts and creations but it just isnt any good when it stretches the text off the screen and the page has to be scrolled across to be read.

Miller

January 11th, 2004, 07:48 PM

I am sorry about the size of the last image, I hope this is image works better. Like I said I will try to get my hands on a CAD program, this more advanced drawing will include three views and all the dimensions, as well as some ideas that were imposible to express with paint.

smokepole

January 13th, 2004, 11:58 AM

I have a small .22 cal derringer that I have drawn in Visio (sorry no cad program yet) but I don't know how to post the images? Would someone please help a newbie.

Rhadon

January 13th, 2004, 12:18 PM

Click the "New Reply" button and attach the image.

akinrog

January 13th, 2004, 02:06 PM

Hi, I am a newbie and I have 2 of the homemade firearms books. But I am dire need of the other 4 books you specified. I have made some small contributions but I don't know whether or not they are worthy of being granted access to FTP. Can someone put it on Overnet P2P network or give me a clue to how to get them. I am living in a very oppressive and restricted country where even having knowledge of "dangerous" information may make you a terrorist to be prosecuted. So I cannot purchase them directly. Any help is greatly appreciated. Regards

smokepole

January 13th, 2004, 04:19 PM

Here is a set of plans I am working on for a .22 cal derringer derrived from a German pinfire gun Its in visio, because I do not have a cad program right now, and its a lot better than paint. --------------------------Sorry, but 250 kB for two visio files (which 100 people will download an 2 will be able to open) is inacceptable. You can either upload it to your own webspace and link it or upload a (preferrably smaller) file in a more common format (like PDF, WMF, GIF, JPEG...). Rhadon

smokepole

January 13th, 2004, 06:49 PM

Sorry about the size of the visio files here they are in wmf format until I get my site up and running.:o

Miller

January 19th, 2004, 01:02 AM

Is the MAC10 a gun that would be plausible to make at home? I have only ever heard vague references to them, and they never seem to be directly addressed. If plans of this weapon are available on the internet, I would be thankful for the URL. Thank you.

smokepole

January 19th, 2004, 07:11 PM

Miller try www.biggerhammer.net they have a vast number of blueprints that you can download in PDF format.

smokepole

January 22nd, 2004, 02:49 PM

I was wondering if any of you have seen blueprints for a Kolibri 2.7 mm miniature pistol from the 1930's?

ossassin

January 23rd, 2004, 10:03 AM

The MAC-10 probably won't be too easy to make. I'd recommend something like a Sten Mk II. It should be easier to make on your own than most guns, or you can buy a parts kit and an 80%-finished receiver.

Dave the Rave

January 23rd, 2004, 10:20 AM

A Mac10 is perfectly made by home. In fact, it is the main weapon on street gang´s arsenal at my Country. One time the black & white seized about 200 guns at an clandestine factory. Here they made it with comercial avaliable steel plates, cut and welded with an regular arc welder. Even the magazine is made this way.

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You can find an reliable pdf blueprint at http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/survival-lib/firearms-pyro.html look at m11 blueprints.

Miller

January 23rd, 2004, 08:55 PM

Umm... I didn't see anythiny pertaining to the Mac10 or m11 blueprints. Maybe you could elaborate on where to find these plans? And I would also be interested in hearing more about the guns that you all manufacture.

ossassin

January 24th, 2004, 07:29 PM

Miller, it's called "Building the M11-9 Handbook - Pictures." I'd be very interested in building one, but I don't have that machinery. How hard would it be to make, and would I need anything big like a lathe or a milling machine?

xyz

January 24th, 2004, 07:47 PM

I would say that you would need a lathe (or access to one) to turn down the barrel and chamber it. A milling machine would probably be needed (or accessed) for making the forming dies for bending the various sheet metal parts into shape. If you want a simple SMG design then have a look at "Expedient Homemade Firearms - The 9mm Submachinegun" by PA Luty. It needs only a drill, angle grinder, and simple hand tools. The downside is that it is smoothbore so accuracy isn't the best, but from what I've heard about the Mac-10 and Mac-11, this shouldn't be a problem :p .

ossassin

January 24th, 2004, 08:22 PM

Is that on the FTP? I've applied for access, and I'm still waiting for a response.

Jacks Complete

January 25th, 2004, 05:13 PM

Groan, guys, please. The two rounds, 5.56mm NATO, and .223 Remington (not Winchester!), are, effectively interchangable. However, the military spec. 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure than the SAMMI spec for .223. This, combined with other slight differences in the specs, means that 5.56mm NATO spec rounds will sometimes cause problems in tightly specified match .223 Win rifles. Go search around on one of the target rifle forums, and you will find reams about this. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) warns against using military 5.56mm NATO ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for the .223 Remington unless the manufacturer of the arm has been consulted. Apparently there has been significant variations in chamber dimensions used by some makers, and it is possible that excessively high chamber pressures could result. It should also be noted that the military 55-gr. M193 Ball cartridge may not stabilize with faster than a 1-in-9" rifling twist. As a second, and cautionary, tale, NEVER assume that any round will be the diameter of the name! Even some modern rounds are not the metric value of the name, and almost all imperial named cartridges are not what it said on the tin! .38 Special and .357 Magnum are actually the same physical size of lead bullet (.357"), as is .44 (Rem) Magnum and .44 (S&W) Special. The nominal diameter of them are not the same as the name, as they are both .43"! Sometimes the distance is taken across the lands of the rifling, sometimes from land to valley, or valley to valley, sometimes across the case outer edge, and sometimes it is purely historical reasons! The 6mm Flobert-Rundkugeln (Flobert cap) is so named because it is 5.58mm in diameter, is nominally .22" in diameter, but, is 6mm long, but, in fact, it is 6.18mm long!! Many examples can be found by looking on Ammoguide (http://www.ammoguide.com). The quote above shows that even manufacturers get it wrong!! Take care, too, as Ammoguide may not be perfect either... Once you decide, go and look at various reloading sites, as they often discuss the different types and sizes of bullets. The good news is, as long as the bullet isn't hard (i.e. lead!) and the pressure doesn't blow your gun to bits, you can stuff whatever size (within reason) you like down it. A common "gangsta" twat gun here is a Brocock conversion (an air pistol, now as illegal as a machine gun!) which cuts nearly half the bullet off as it goes from the cylinder to the barrel! Hence people catching the bullets with two hands...

flamingfrog

January 25th, 2004, 06:20 PM

there are detailed sten mkII plans at this site http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf

xyz

January 25th, 2004, 07:56 PM

Ossassin, yes, it's on the FTP under several different names. The two that I can remember are "Expedient Homemade Firearms - The 9mm Submachinegun" and "Ehf9mmsmg". Jack's Complete, Interesting about a .22 bullet being fired in a .177 air pistol barrel. Probably some of the pressure gets releived as gas escapes from the gap between the cylinder and barrel.

Dave the Rave

January 26th, 2004, 10:46 AM

The mac 10/11 isn´t hard to build. Sure you will need an lathe and an milling machine, but you can hire an machinist to do it

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The barrels are not a problem, you can purchase it at any parts dealer, then cut it down the size you want, crown it with an dreamell and make the adjustments needed with common tools. If you wishes to make your own barrel, then you must find the proper shaft, cut it, take it to your machinist and ask him to drill it the proper diameter. tempering, crowning and adjustments are accomplished at home. I don´t bore with rifling an smg barrel, it won´t be much precise anyway ! About the forming dies, you have two options, make all the plain parts with steel plates, cut and welded together or ask your machinist to make the dies, wich you will use to make smgs to all your family and friends. It won´t be a problem either, cause teh dies don´t rise any supicion, even on the king of the clever machinists.

ossassin

January 26th, 2004, 09:21 PM

This is pretty unrelated, but if you don't get any response after applying for FTP access twice, can you assume that you've been rejected? Should I try again? Would someone mind posting that book someplace where I can access it? Thanks.

Blackhawk

January 26th, 2004, 09:49 PM

On that note I aplied over a week ago, has my form, been lost or is chemwarrior just away/swamped atm. (sorry for being so OT but I thought it would be better adding to this OT rather than starting yet another wartercooler thread, or modifying one of the FTP threads)

Voyager

January 26th, 2004, 11:04 PM

Anyone have reasonably good plans for a slam-fire shotgun? I want to build one with the following limitations: It must be built only from parts available at Home Depot and utilizing no power tools. (Note: I have power tools and quite a few firearms, this is for a "project".)

smokepole

January 29th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Here is a pdf that i pulled from the White Resistance Manual (don't agree with their ideals, but I like looking at the pretty pictures):D

smokepole

January 30th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Here is another detailed drawing of a simple .22 caliber twist barrel derringer. Sorry that I don't have any pics but I am still gathering materials.

Beethoven_1983

February 1st, 2004, 10:29 AM

I've seen some nifty airrifles at pyramydair.com, its a precharged pneumatic airrifle...DAMN! I want one of those...If you check it out, you'll find sniperrifles in almost every caliber known to man. I found this .50 cal. rifle there,,,*bliss* http:// pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=486

Beethoven_1983

February 1st, 2004, 10:37 AM

Does anyone feel a sudden urge to make this kind of airrifle themselves in some kind of twisted dream? I've started to make some calculations, and the airrifle at pyramydair.com has a chamber that can keep a pressure up to 12 bar, and fire a .50 caliber slug (They got all kind of ammo too; Hollow-point, dumdum, round-nose and tip-pointed, sharp projectiles) and the velocity of firing are close up to 12-1300 f\s. I can imagine some of you got some ideas to share,,,hehe

Jacks Complete

February 1st, 2004, 05:31 PM

xyz, the Brococks are mostly .22, but the round goes in at an angle due to the firing pin being central, and the .22 rinfire being, well, a rimfire. It's a revolver, so they don't always line up perfectly to begin with, either. You get shite coming out sideways, basically!

ossassin

February 4th, 2004, 08:15 AM

I just got Expedient Homemade Firearms: 9mm Submachinegun (Vol I), Home Workshop Firearms: 9mm Machine Pistol (Vol II), More Workbench Silencers, The Silencer Cookbook: .22 Rimfire Silencers, and, of course, Mein Kampf. Are these on the FTP? If not, I'll upload them. EDIT: By the way, The 9mm SMG (Vol I) does not requre machining tools. It looks pretty simple.

jelly Are these on the FTP? If not, I'll upload them. Yes, all books you have mentioned are on the FTP. There are 3 main sources of all the PDF's floating around on the internet: 1. The FTP (and the forumites who have scanned in all the nice books)

February 4th, 2004, 12:29 PM

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2. The old Swedish Infomania site 3. The Aquilifer site (with the "Homemade Firearms..." stuff written by Bill Holmes) If you want to contribute books to TheForum, buy or borrow E&W related books and create your own PDF's.

ossassin

February 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM

It looks like I won't be given any chances, anyway. Thanks for the info, though.

jelly

February 4th, 2004, 09:29 PM

What's the problem? Since you are living in the USA, you should find all of the nice "Paladin Press" and "Loompanics Unlimited" stuff at local bookstores. If you don't want to buy or borrow books or if you don't have a scanner, then do this: - grab one of the pocket-sized mini-DV camcorders with a good wide-angle lens - go to a local bookstore and grab an interesting E&W related book - turn on the camcorder and then leaf through the book... in a distance of about 1 feet from the lens. This will just take 1-2 minutes per book (~ 30 books fit on a single miniDV cassette :)). - go home and import the film into a video program like Adobe Premiere or Ulead Media Studio Pro - export all pages of the book as .jpg files (bitmaps) - load the bitmaps into Adobe Photoshop and rotate, scale, crop and save them - load the bitmaps into Adobe Acrobat to create a .PDF file of the book we all are waiting for ;) A book recorded with a camcorder (mini-DV format: NTSC resolution = 720*480, PAL resolution = 720*576) is better than nothing.

ossassin

February 5th, 2004, 06:25 PM

Is it possible to get a free copy of Photoshop? It's pretty expensive.

zaibatsu

February 5th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Its very easy, just go to the warez sites.

ossassin

February 10th, 2004, 01:34 AM

I felt that this was the most appropriate place for this question. Where can I get information on making my own drum magazines? It would help if there was info. on how to adapt them to such weapons as the Expedient Homemade Firearms: 9mm Submachinegun. Thanks. Also, how hard would it be to convert the design to fire a .45 ACP instead of a 9mm? Since the design is a smoothebore, and therefore not very accurate, i'd rather have the punch of the .45 than the accuracy and penetration of the 9mm.

Bigfoot

February 10th, 2004, 03:51 PM

Since the design is a smoothebore, and therefore not very accurate, i'd rather have the punch of the .45 than the accuracy and penetration of the 9mm. Dude, I hope you're not referring to the design in Home Workshop Firearms: 9mm Submachine Gun, because my reading of the book gives me to understand the preference for a rifled barrel. Unrifled being the ultimate makeshift solution. Author even shows a method for rifling the homemade barrel. Even I could dope out a way to adapt the method to use a drill bit for a pattern, and pantograph-type device to amplify movement.

ossassin

February 10th, 2004, 11:00 PM

From Expedient Homemade Firearms: 9mm Submachinegun Making a rifled gun barrel would require, at the very least, a lathe and a rifling machine. Relatively few people own a lathe, and even fewer own a barrel rifling machine-not to mention the ability to use them. On any firearm that is truly homemade, the accuracy of the rifled barrel must be compromised for the ease of construction the smoothe-bore version offers. While the accuracy of the handgun or rifle is important, the machine gun's inherent firepower means accuracy is of secondary importance. Reliably getting as many bullets to the target as possible is the main consideration. You may be thinking one of Bill Holmes' other books, the 9mm Machine Pistol.

xyz

February 13th, 2004, 05:12 AM

To clear things up, Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a smoothbore barrel. The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling machine, unlike Luty's design. I'm sure that you could use a rifled barrel on Luty's SMG design, but you would require access to lathe to turn the barrel down and chamber it (And this is assuming a rifled blank is available, which is sometimes isn't). Luty originally wrote the book for people in the UK, where barrels are a restricted item, people in the US or Australia should be able to get hold of a rifled barrel for their SMG.

zaibatsu

February 13th, 2004, 01:54 PM

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This may be slightly more complicated for people without access to the FTP, but there is the PDF of the minuteman SMG floating about somewhere, which strikes me as a simple .45ACP SMG.

Bigfoot

February 13th, 2004, 04:26 PM

To clear things up, Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a smoothbore barrel. The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling machine, unlike Luty's design.

Thanks for the correction; my error. Haven't seen the book by Luty; have read the ones from Holmes, including the Streetsweeper book he wrote. Thanks again for setting me straight. An off-topic question for Britons: how much is a "stone" in weight? Pounds or Kg, I don't care.

zaibatsu

February 13th, 2004, 06:34 PM

Is the streetsweeper book actually by Holmes? I got it today, and it looks pretty good, I thought it may be by him when I recognised the photos from the Home Workshop Prototype Firearms. I'm going to upload it to the FTP, as soon as I get this damn laptop set up. Btw, 1 stone = 14 pounds.

ossassin

February 13th, 2004, 07:40 PM

xyz, my copy says "Bill Holmes." It says that he made the gun in it, because he couldn't use his machining tools. I have the minuteman book, but it is in pictures (.jpg's). Is there a .pdf out there?

zaibatsu

February 13th, 2004, 10:11 PM

The PDF is from some magazine that I think must have published the blueprints in full, and the PDF contains improvements to the original design. If my memory serves me correctly it was from some American mag called Firepower, or something similar. I can't remember where I picked it up, probably from a yahoo group or similar, but I think it's on the FTP now.

PHAID

February 13th, 2004, 10:16 PM

I think i have that issue, Ill look for it and scan it if you like.

zaibatsu

February 14th, 2004, 08:29 AM

There's not much point to scanning that article, as it's already scanned. You could compare it to the copy you have, as yours will be obviously more accurate, I'll check it and see if any of the diagrams are crappy and need rescanning. However, there may be other interesting articles in that magazine, so anything around this subject would be very useful.

ossassin

February 15th, 2004, 02:57 AM

Would you mind posting it? I still don't have FTP access. Thanks.

zaibatsu

February 15th, 2004, 07:10 AM

I'll find some way in a couple of days.

buzzd

February 17th, 2004, 03:10 AM

No it's not impossible. I know someone who knows a (illegal) gun dealer. So it's not impossible. If you don't know anyone you still can get in contact with people at train stations. Maybe you'll just find some guys who are selling drugs, but for a small fee they will certainly remember someone who sells guns. If build a gun yourself you still have the problem of getting ammunition. For this you still have to get in contact with criminal elements. Ammo is not a problem in the United States. Nobody should have a problem with this, and if they do... If this person you know really knows this "illegal gun dealer" [more like airsoft dealer], then you won't a have a problem getting and shipping me a receiver? Packed w/ some metal junk/tools. Label as tool kit on customs, ship to USA. Top dollar paid. Assuming you're not full of shi7.

Bigfoot

February 20th, 2004, 02:08 PM

Btw, 1 stone = 14 pounds. Danke. As for authorship, word usage and sentence structure are consistent with Holmes. As are his preferred methods, editorial comments. Either Holmes or a poser.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter zaibatsu

February 20th, 2004, 10:23 PM

Yes, it's completely Bill Holmes, just had to look a little harder. Interesting he didn't think of using brass cased shotgun shells for his shotgun, I assume they'd make extraction easier. I know .410 shotgun cartridges can be made from .303 brass, with the neck anealed and blown out to full diameter.

xperk

March 3rd, 2004, 01:08 PM

Hi, Due to may country of residence having insane gun-laws - I have been looking at the different methods for rifling a homemade barrel, and discovered some of the problems involved. Judging from the Brocock conversions firing a .22 shell from a .22 airgun is at least possible (Mind you that the Brocock conversion used hardened steel inserts to strengthen the chamber). I have been unable to find any discussion of the airgun topic on the forum so here goes: is it possible to take a .22 airgun barrel and use a seamless hardened steel tube on the outside of the barrel as a sleeve? Not only would the availability of suitable tubes with sufficient wall thickness be easier than finding a 5.5 mm. tube of the right proportions. The airgun barrel OD would be easy to downsize to fit a tube - than drilling a hole through a steel rod... both requiring a lathe though... I guess the wear on the airgun barrel would be higher than normal, but the availability and low pricing of airguns should partly make up for that. This could result in a sort of 'inverted Brocock' design, that had the benefit of a safe and precise rifled barrel.

leoncristobal

March 3rd, 2004, 07:15 PM

could not locate the site at angelfire. it said check the url. :confused: Here are some books that can help you: Zips Pipes And Pens - J. David Truby - 20 Mb E x p e d i e n t Homema de Firearms 9mm Submachinegun 30 MB Home Workshop Guns - 9mm Machine Pistol 34 MB Home Workshop Prototype Firea rms 45MB Home Workshop Firearms - Two P istol Designs 4 MB Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol 5 MB The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm The others were too big to put in the ftp. These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun: http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg

Jacks Complete

March 4th, 2004, 05:24 AM

leoncristobal, to ensure a long and happy stay here, try not to post one line with a 20 line quote! Aside from that, welcome to the forums.

xperk

March 5th, 2004, 01:21 PM

Searching a Police site (yes) I came across some interesting pictures of what appears to be a confiscated improvised keychainlike gun. As you can see in the pictures (ruler indication in cm. by the way) it is of quite simple construction. Picture 1 depicts the gadget dissambled - the barrel doubles at the guns breech by sliding in place over a pair of rails. The center button on picture 2 most likely is the locking mechanism by inserting a pin in the center hole. As you can see in picture two each barrel has a trigger, the gun is probably cocked by the big ring connected to the pin. Obviously the design isn't aimed at any target range i have ever encountered. It looks like .22 short to me - but I could be wrong.. I have never seen this design before, so if anyone could enlighten me on the innovative use of laminated steel for the barrel... btw. smokers should probably not carry this gun and a zippo at the same time - in each instance a mistake could prove embarrassing :-)

nbk2000

March 6th, 2004, 02:42 AM

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Unless the site specifically says it was made of laminated steel plate, I'd think the "plates" are actually just machining marks that haven't been polished out. Also, it's customary here, when referring to a something found on a site somewhere else, to provide a link to it so others can see it as well. Leon....sloppy, sloppy, sloppy! :mad: You simply provide the URL, not the whole post it was in, as we don't need all the rest of it to figure out that the site is 404'd, meaning no longer around, eh? In fact, why didn't you just say "The URL Garbage provided is 404'd". That provides all the information we needed from your post, only in one short sentence, instead of an entire quoted post. In double fact, that's a rule violation too, though it earns you a few days ban, rather than permanent, like I usually do, because I'm in a good mood tonight. :)

xperk

March 6th, 2004, 04:19 AM

nbk2000, sorry for the lack of url, I have had the pics for some time, and they have now vanished from the cop site. I am not too sure about the machining marks though - they seem to be patterned to the width of the supposed laminated stel plate. Also the pattern seems the continue on the inside of the barrel at the same rate as the outside. On the other hand - as previously mentioned - I don't see how they could have assembled the plates to sustain a discharge.

jelly

March 6th, 2004, 10:30 AM

xperk: The keychain gun was produced in the 90s in Bulgaria, sold for just 20 dollars and occasionally confiscated at European airports.

xperk

March 6th, 2004, 12:20 PM

jelly, thanks, looks like you're right! only according to this site, they didn't actually sell them at airports :-) http://powayusd.sdcoe.k12.ca.us/online/usonline/worddoc/weapons.htm and .32 caliber .. hmmm

jelly

March 6th, 2004, 12:41 PM

xperk: Yeah, confiscated at European airports... not sold. My english isn't the best :)

quabillion

March 12th, 2004, 10:12 AM

xyz I ask because if the barrel was 5.56mm as soon as it started, then wouldn't you be unable to chamber the round?. This is true, you would have great diffculty chambering the round. That is why commercial rifiles have what is called a "throat". This throat is just after the chamber but before the rifileing begins. This allows the round to be easly chambered, also it is safer because the ammount of force that would be needed to push the lead bullet into the rifileing could easly deform the rim, causing the not quite chambered round to explode. In a zip gun application you usually would not have this as a problem,(no rifileing) however if you are making a rifiled barrell, then you should have no problem at all putting a throat in also.

tdog49

May 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM

another option instaed of making the whole thing at home is to obtain receiver plans (biggerhammer.net or elsewhere) and craft the reciever at home. this could be done w/ many different weapons however I like the mac 10 as it is a simple cut and weld and heat treat job. Well it is if you know how to weld anyway... then you can buy parts kits from "Shotgun News" or on the web at places like this...www.rpbusa.com since the reciever is what is tracked by the BATF, you can make a smg or semiauto w/o any paperwork by doing it this way.

shadow2501

May 30th, 2004, 06:12 PM

another of those mac-10 parts selling should be http://www.ftfindustries.com ,selling all parts but the receiver,since smg are hard to obtain in europe did anyone here could have ordered something from this site or have heard about someone that had big troubles because of that?

guerrero

August 23rd, 2004, 02:48 AM

As for weapons plans: Since a lot of time I´v benn looking vor the plans of Sardaukar Press like buckler, boltgun, cane gun etc. I refer to scanned detailled plans with dimensions. Can I find such plans on the FTP or anywho has theese plans?

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter steelhead

August 23rd, 2004, 05:35 AM

Take a look on ftp://204.210.178.18/ there are some nice construction plans of a stengun there, the drawings are in autocad format. (DON'T INCLUDE YOUR ENTIRE PUBLIC KEY AT THE END OF EACH POST, PROVIDE A LINK INSTEAD! - KINGSPAZ)

raptor1956

August 25th, 2004, 07:54 PM

I wonder how hard it would be to integrate a silencer into the barrel design. Many models of guns do this, but I don't know how the mechanics would work. Does anybody know anything about that? Not all that hard, drill a series of holes down the last 1/4 or so of the barrel, re-polish the bore, & wrap it in steel wool. slide a tube over the outside, fit some baffles, & screw on an endcap. That's it in a nutshell. Check out weapons like Delisle's commando carbine for details.

alf

August 26th, 2004, 06:30 PM

I have benn looking for Sardaukar Press' plans too. Anybody knows about it? Their designs look very professional and well made vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Military Science

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> m16 dimensions? - Archive File Log in

View Full Version : m16 dimensions? - Archive File Anthony

March 17th, 2003, 09:03 PM

godjack A new voice Posts: 2 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted February 14, 2001 11:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------does anybody have the blueprints for an m16 or the plans to convert an ar15 to m16 specs? how much to mill? where to cut, etc..?

The Real Frequent Poster Posts: 136 From: Columbus, OH Registered: DEC 2000 posted February 15, 2001 12:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------you don't have to cut anything if you have a pre-ban, post ban I'm not sure. You can purchase drop in full auto parts for AR-15's. www.tapco.com or www.cheaperthandirt.com both used to carry some parts you could probably find the rest at a gunshow. Nothing is NFA until you possess all the parts to make the weapon full auto or have already converted it.

godjack A new voice Posts: 2 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted February 22, 2001 12:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------the sear looks way too wide to possibly fit in an ar15 lower. is it just me?

Metal Frequent Poster Posts: 137 From: I'm everywhere. Registered: NOV 2000 posted February 22, 2001 09:35 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I just uploaded the conversion plans. Go here: http://metalsstuff.homestead.com I would give credit to whoever scanned it in, but I dont remember where I got it. -----------------Knowledge Is Our Greatest Defense Against Their Ignorance

stickfigure

March 19th, 2003, 09:21 AM

Three ways to convert an AR-15 are: 1.) Install all M-16 Parts which requires drilling an extra hole above the trigger group for the auto Sear. Drilling jigs are availible and easy to use. 2.) Install all M-16 Parts except auto sear and use a drop-in auto sear. Plans are on the net. 3.) Install a drop-in lightning link that requires no mods. or drilling and can be made out of scrap metal. Although it will were out overtime. Also it is considered an NFA item if a person only has one part and an AR-15. One year, $10,000 fine, hard to remove but highly reliable. The Lightning link is easy to remove but can become problematic and wear out. But it is easy to get rid of! Plans are on the net for the lightning link at: http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/ar15upgrade.htm Some good info about it, has some really good pics!: http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html I think of all the options the link is the cheapest.

zaibatsu

March 19th, 2003, 08:37 PM

I found a very well written document on the "Lightning Link" which I'll upload to the FTP when its back online.

I_am_the_Black_one

April 7th, 2003, 02:34 AM

The other Night I had ahh Perplexing Dream I dreamed that I lived in Australia and that any gun that dos'nt hav a cork stuffed in the end was illegal I dreamed that i wanted 2 buy a Mill and make a decent Semi/Full Auto gun capable of combat In my dream I thought to make a m11/9 or a Sten But my dream self conceved the problem that they are only close quarters weapons And that i would need Something with more range say a Battle rife I dreamed that i knew some one in the US that was willing to send me used cartidges Im not sure this is the place to post my *Dream* but any help would be appreciated

Anthony

April 8th, 2003, 04:20 PM

No one will send you used cartridges or anything else, anyone here could be a cop and you being a newbie makes people a lot more weary. Plus you can get cartridges in your own country, if you think about where you need to look... I wouldn't say this was the correct place for your post. Frankly I don't think such a poorly concieved and constructed post should have been made at all. You really need to put more thought into your ideas.

zaibatsu

April 8th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Semi/full auto MBR? Doubt you'd be able to do it - the gas systems are pretty complex really, you'd need a rifle to copy each component from, unlike simple blowback SMGs that you can do with trial and error. Now, a falling-block rifle action, that's perfectly possible with a mill - you'd be able to make everything but the barrel. I have some plans

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(from a book I actually bought! ) but they are very technical, and the action would require heat-treating (commercial) for safety I think. But, having said that, all MBR actions would due to the high pressure carts. My scanner is fucked or else I'd scan it, however and UK mods who want to volunteer...

blacktalon

April 9th, 2003, 11:11 PM

:-) Why not just build yourself up a rifle? Step #1, go to a gun show and buy yourself a m16 complete parts kit. This will give you every piece you need except for a stripped lower receiver. (The controlled piece) Then go to http://www.tanneryshop.com/ and order yourself an 80% AR lower for $80. All the hard work is done for you. All you need at this point is a drilling jig and a hand drill. Then order yourself one of their jigs. http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/drilljig1.jpg You can get the jig, all the bits, and the large tap you need for threading the back of the receiver for the buffer tube for around $300. http://www.tanneryshop.com/files/MVC_010S.JPG You can even get a jig with with extra "devil hole" for drilling the hole for the auto sear which is the main difference between a semi and full auto AR. If you assemble a semi-auto ar with an m16 fire controll group, it will remain semi auto. It needs the auto sear which requires another hole. [ April 09, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: blacktalon ]

zaibatsu

April 10th, 2003, 10:44 AM

If you are referring to the person from AU then they cannot buy an 80% reciever, parts kit, upper etc. If only we could over here, I'd have made lots of them by now! Is there not something against using any M16 fire-control parts in an AR15? Doesn't make sense but that seems to be what the BATFE are all about.

zaibatsu

April 12th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Apologies for the wait, I've converted the document to .pdf, its about 200kb and uploaded to the SensoryStatic FTP. Enjoy :)

I_am_the_Black_one

April 14th, 2003, 01:56 PM

You guys dont know much about aus do you.. You cant get smg cases over here or anything that will fire in a auto Also I mate of mine in the US Is sending my cases and has made a m11/9 he made the barrel from from i think HE DOM (drawn over madrel) it works fine I have lots of time on my hands and am a profichent Machinest (Tho my spelling leaves a bit to be desired ) so I think I could perfect a gas system. The reason I was dreaming of this is that in aus you cannot hav basicly anything but a lil gun with a cork in the end

Edit: About the barrel He did this with a small lathe and a few home made mods I any one is interested I can wip up a DIY guide to making a M11/9 in 9mm

zaibatsu

April 14th, 2003, 02:23 PM

so you can't get 9mm cases? I thought you could get 9mm handguns over there. You can't get .308? or .303? or .223? They're all calibres that have been used in automatic weapons. If you had a CNC mill you could manufacture an AR15 upper and lower from scratch - check www.roderuscustom.tzo.com (from memory) and go onto the forums, check the AR15 section. The problem after that would be manufacturing everything else!

I_am_the_Black_one

April 15th, 2003, 03:42 AM

Your wecome to come over ti australia and ask for 9mm smg cases........

How fast can you say ASIAO

Anthony

April 15th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Even in silly England we can buy the seperate components of munitions... Paying a visit to firing ranges can get you spent cartridges. 9mm/8mm blanks can be used as-is with a projectile. Souviner ammo provides 5.56/7.62mm cases and jacketed bullets. Or you could even turn some up from brass stock on a lathe...

I_am_the_Black_one

April 16th, 2003, 07:26 AM

You can buy Spent Brass over here or Unused but I think you would be in a jail cell if you went seeking SMG brass....

Anthony

April 16th, 2003, 02:55 PM

SMGs usually use pistol ammo! 9mm, .45" etc.

I_am_the_Black_one

April 22nd, 2003, 08:32 PM

Umm yes officer i was buying 45,000 rounds for........

oh and most run of the mill ammo jams in 9mm smgs unless you have a very nice one you also have to have a firearms licancce over here and i can not get one for 10 years cause i have two accounts of assult police (I was minding my own bisness and they come up and try to charge me with break and enter no matter that i had just comeback from holidays and could not hav possably have done it they bashed me up and charge me with Assult police!!) excuse the spelling im in a hurry

irish

April 22nd, 2003, 09:58 PM

With a licence you can buy any small arms ammo in Australia execept tracer rounds. Without a licence you will find some gun shops will not ask to see one or you can find a shooter and get them to buy your ammo for you. Also if you go and tell them you want SMG brass or ammo they most likely will ring ASIAO, tell them you want a 200 round case of ex-army 9mm and there will be no problem.

I_am_the_Black_one Ok more on topic I have finnaly located good Blue prints for the AR15/M16 any one interested email me at [email protected]

April 24th, 2003, 10:11 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter zaibatsu

April 25th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Those AR15/M16 blueprints are only for the lower reciever right? If you have some for the upper I'd be very interested. However, the lower prints are everywhere, including the FTP.

I_am_the_Black_one

April 25th, 2003, 08:19 AM

:D Guess what I have Upper and lower Blue prints Il upload soon as I get acess to the FTP

blacktalon

April 28th, 2003, 08:25 PM

Hey black one, Ever shot a sub gun? I have personal experience with one or two, (Mac-10 and 11, Tec-9, Thompson, Sten Mk 2 and 3, CAR-15 9mm, MP5SD and PDW, UZI, Beretta 12S, and Glock 18's come to me off hand.) and I have never seen much of a problem firing Wolf ammo through them. (Wolf is the cheapest ammo you can buy. $100 for 1000rds of 9mm, 223 or 7.62x39. Absolutely not mil spec.) If you don't believe that, hop a plane to the US in October and visit Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky. You can rent machine guns there and they dump cheap ammo down range all day with few jams.

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 12:27 AM

I have shot a few but The ammo here is crappy thats why im trying to get smg ammo I have heard of a quick fix for ammo feeding you file a small bit of the top of the chamber

blacktalon

April 29th, 2003, 01:20 AM

Close... you file a small rounded trough off the bottom face of the chamber. This is called a feed ramp. :-) In most Mac-11 clones there is a piece of thin metal bent up to act as one, but they don't always work very well in that they are flat and don't guide the ammo to where it needs to be and you get a lot of stove pipes. (especially in home made versions) You might try rounding it a bit or welding a better ramp over the flat one. Even better... get yourself an old Colt 1911 barrel and cut the feed ramp off of it and weld it to the bottom of your barrel. I know a couple of guys that have had success with this method but they had to do a little relief work on the bolt to make it work....

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 01:36 AM

I have always had problems with ammo feeding That may fix it do you think you could supply a diagram? vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Military Science

> Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n

> Sten MK III kits Log in

View Full Version : Sten MK III kits - Archive File Anthony

March 17th, 2003, 09:09 PM

Aggy Freq uent Poster Posts: 44 From : Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 25, 2001 07:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------C o u l d a n y o n e t e l l m e if it would be possible to buy a sten mk 3 kit from the US a nd send it to the UK as i understand theres no license required but does anyone know if this applies to the UK too? Or am i k idding m yself for just asking.

Igenx Freq uent Poster Posts: 80 From : No Fucking Way Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 26, 2001 12:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't know if it's possible to get kits sent to the UK, but they can be bo ught at www.auctiona rm s.com I also suggest that you find a Mk. 2 instead of Mk. 3 kit. They a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e m uch easier to put toge ther. I have a Mk. 3 and I can see why- the shroud is a pain in the ass to weld to the barrel.

Aggy Freq uent Poster Posts: 44 From : Registered: SEP 2000 posted February 26, 2001 11:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks for the link.

blacktalon

April 9th, 2003, 11:31 PM

It certainly could be done. It could not however, but done legally. To send firearm s parts out of the US you must ha v e a n exporter’s license. Th e UK is not currently impo rting the kits, so it isn't going to happen. If you had a really good friend, however, you m ay be able to get him to throw the parts kit in with a bunch of scrap m etal and get it through custom s like that. It isn't worth it thought. MK IIIs aren't worth the $65 they cost. If you HAVE to get a Sten (which are all shit) get a MK-II. Side note, it is kind o f ironic that you want to buy one in the US and ship it to the UK. They were originally m ade in the U K, and then importe d by the US.

I_am_the_Black_one

April 25th, 2003, 12:59 AM

M a c h i n e d p a r t s a m o n gst scrap m etal i highly douht that it would get through custom s I got M11/9 parts into aus by having a friend send them one by one with a sticker on the frount Stating that they where from "D.I.Y R obotics" witha fake ad dress So custom s cant identify the single p ieces W ell it work ed for m e:D ---------------------------------------use punctuation. - kingspaz

blacktalon

April 28th, 2003, 08:05 PM

Now let m e g et this strait. You are telling me that you sm u g g l e d a C o b r a y M a c - 1 1 9 m m in to Australia piece by piece, and y o u w e r e a b l e t o d o s o b e c a u s e C u s t o m s c o u l d n t identify the individual pieces . N o o f f e n s e , b u t t h i s s o u n d s l i k e s e c o n d p o s t bull shit to m e . I d o n t care how stupid you r custom s worker is, a ba r r e l l o o k s l i k e a b a r r e l . T h e u p p e r r e c e i v e r o f a M a c 1 1 look s l i k e t h e u p p e r h a l f o f a s u b g u n . T h e l o w e r h a l f l o o k s l i k e the lower half o f a s u b g u n . I t s o n ly two m ajor parts! Give m e a break! Robotics parts dont need ejection ports. http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com /0d447580.jpg C ount them for yourself. http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com /0ffbb860.jpg http://www.nighthawkfirearm s.com / 1 3 4 5 3 b 2 0 . j p g

Now, as for m achined pa rts p a s s ing am o n g s t s c r a p m e t a l . H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a S t e n M K I I I ? They look lik e scrap m etal anyway. The art to the whole ordeal is getting custom s not to rum mage around in your scrap. The original poster only wanted a kit so there is no tell tail receiver to worry about. Just throw the other goodies in som e n i c e s h a r p o d d s a n d e n d s a n d n o one would ever be the wiser. Another good idea is to m ake sure there is a lot of grease and other industria l s l u d g e m i x e d i n . T h o s e l o s e r s d o n t want to get their ha n d s dirty. If all else fails, you could sm uggle it in, i n a 3 5 g a l l o n s t e e l d r u m f u l l o f u s e d oil that is nice and black. Mak e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s a n i c e Toxic m aterial sticker on the outsid e a n d t h e r e i s n o way they will want to wade around in that shit. http://ebay0.ipixm edia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_f47875cb021d0b73122b81fd e5ac3864/i-1.JPG

I_am_the_Black_one

April 29th, 2003, 03:14 AM

No its not second post bullshit I had all my posts stripped:( I m ade the barrel and recivers m y self and i did forget to m ention that they where packed in grease. Lol I know that stens a re scrap metal I was refering to m y m 11/9 the only thing that I couldent get thru is the grip cause it looks like what it is I m a d e t h e m a g h o u s i n g , r e c i v e r s a n d e v e n m y own m agizines (It was a battle with the springs :D )

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Anthony

April 29th, 2003, 03:43 PM

So why couldn't you h ave m ade all the parts from scrap?

blacktalon

April 30th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Y o u m a d e t h e receiver, mag housing, barrel, springs and m a g s ? W hat did you have to "sm uggle" through then? That is 99% of a Mac 11. All that is left is the bolt and trigger group. If you could m ake a rece iver and barrel, you m ust have everything n e e d e d t o m ake a trigger group. (I on c e m a d e a crude SMG trigger group out of m ild steel with a grinder and a drill press...) So, basically you m ust have only imported the bolt. Woo hoo. :rolleyes:

I_am_the_Black_one

May 1st, 200 3, 03:30 AM

I got the guts of it through the mail. Minus of corse the fire limiter:D So how did you do the trigger did you have one to copy off?

zaibatsu

May 1st, 200 3, 12:17 PM

H e c o u l d h a v e d e s i g n ed the trigger m e c h a n i s m himself, they aren't difficult. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter The Explosives and Weapons Forum select fire conversion

> Military Science

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> ak-47 full auto w/out Log in

View Full Version : ak-47 full auto w/out select fire conversion phyrelord

September 17th, 2002, 06:18 PM

I want to make an ak-47 full auto. I searched the forum and only came up with a discussion on a select fire ak but i'm looking for ways to make an ak full auto completely w/out select fire. just full auto. Any help is greatly appreciated

Whitey

September 17th, 2002, 06:29 PM

This isn't exactly what you are looking for but it is fun and legal. Ever hear of "the bump"? Basically it is a way to simulate full auto rates with out being full auto since the trigger is depressed for each time the weapon is fired. Here is a page that gives instructions and a video on "the bump". http://hometown.aol.com/bishop042/ bump.html

Zyklon_B

September 18th, 2002, 01:14 AM

Go here: http:// secession.tripod.com/southerntradingsblueprintsandreceivers/id2.html And buy this: quote: 47. 60% finished AK-47 Lightning Link. All the mill work and welding is done. You simply cut out one small part with hand tools or dremmel and fit to your receiver and drop in. Comes with bonded on template and instructions. Will fit all AK Variants. ALL NFA rules apply! Shipping is $6.00. Price $50.00. After you finish the work with a dremel following all the easy plans they give you, all you have to do is drop it in your AK and you get full-auto and safety only. When your done you just take it out of your gun. It leaves no marks and does nothing permanent. Also can be switched from AK to AK.

Nico

September 26th, 2002, 08:48 PM

Disclaimer: If you have a friend who has an AK, make sure he never modifies his weapon in this manner. This information is to help you identify what NOT to do, in order to keep all your friends and acquaintances on the right side of the law. How the semi-auto version of the AK works (follow along with the picture): - When cocked, the hammer is held back by the hooks on the trigger. - Pulling the trigger swings the hooks out of the way, causing the hammer to rotate forward and hit the firing pin which stikes the primer and you're in business (the shin bone's connected to the knee bone, and so forth) :) - After firing, the bolt slides back, bringing the hammer with it. - Keeping the trigger pressed keeps the hooks out of the way, but our lovely friend the disconnector remains on duty to hold that hammer back when the bolt slides forward again. - Letting go of the trigger releases the disconnector but raises the hooks, so the hammer is still held back, until the trigger is pulled anew. - If it wasn't for the disconnector, the hammer would just rotate forward by being carried along with the bolt, slamming into the firing pin again. - This process would continue until either a) you release the trigger, or b) you run out of ammo. - So what to do about the pesky disconnector? Simply tie it off to the cross pin (the safety lever pivots on it) ... this keeps it out of the way. Problems with this: - I have no idea if this even works, not having an AK nor any interest in going to jail. - This information was garnered from a text file of dubious origin. - There is no way to fire single shots, unless you are extremely quick at letting go of the trigger. This could be very dangerous. - You could waste a lot of ammo with this method. - A twist-tie is pretty half-assed. - The hammer may not have as much force being carried forward by the bolt as it would being release by the hammer spring. Thus, light strikes may occur and rounds may not even fire at all. Perhaps it depends on the ammo, but likely the problem is because the weapon is not made to operate in this manner. - Stamped receivers may have trouble handling the barrage of full auto. Blackjack buffers or similar are recommended. - ***** It's quite illegal, so don't do it. ***** [ September 26, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Nico ]

hodehum

September 26th, 2002, 09:34 PM

I also found a way of converting an AK-47 to full auto using a twist tie, also in a text file. you can find it here.

Zyklon_B

September 26th, 2002, 11:45 PM

If they couldn't get the caliber and the cartridge right in that above text, what are the chances of it really working?

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter hodehum

September 27th, 2002, 01:41 AM

Somewhere between zero and shit all Does anyone have any plans to converting any common/well known rifle to full-auto? esp with firing mechanism similar to that of a AK-47?

Nico

September 27th, 2002, 09:00 PM

Yes, that HackCanada file is the 'file of dubious origin' that I was referring to. I drew the pic as I understood the text file to mean. But, yes, it seem pretty sketchy. Here is a pic of the AK-47 version of the Lightning Link: and the associated text: quote:This is the link for the AK-47, and AKS series of rifles. The curved ends catch notches at the end of the AK hammer, and hold it back until the link is tripped by the forward movement of the bolt. It is shown approximately twice actual size, and may be easily inserted, and removed from the weapon. The picture was taken from an add on an Internet web sight where it was being sold; don't ask me for the address. As there is no serial number on the piece, and the seller in question is not a class 3 dealer, I can only assume that the device in question is illegal, and being sold illegally. As may be seen, this is simply a flat piece of spring steel which has been cut and bent to size. It can be produced easily with minimal equipment for a couple of dollars, and yet I see these bits of prison bait selling for hundreds of dollars.And here is the site it came from: http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/ semifull.html

EventHorizon

September 29th, 2002, 10:23 PM

As I understand it anyone can get full auto AK parts at almost any good gun show as they are not illegal. All that is required is drilling one hole in the AK receiver (thats what will get you 10 years) and installing the auto bolt and sear and then making an additional notch between the "safe" position and the fire position. Very easy! The SKS is even simpler. You remove the trigger assembly and bend a small piece of metal much like in an above post and that fits under the sear preventing it from catching. With additional modification to make the pins come out easy you have an easy conversion that can be done in literally less than 2 minutes. Get an SKS that accepts AK mags, whack in a 75 rnd drum and you have one nice little toy to plink with. :p [ September 29, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]

phyrelord

September 30th, 2002, 10:24 PM

Does anyone have plans for the lightning link for the AK-47? or can anyone explain better where it goes, or shed any light on the subject. Does anyone have the milling plans. I would like to take a look at them, for educational purposes of course.

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur

October 2nd, 2002, 11:31 AM

damn, why is it that everyone thinks that full-auto gives them an edge? Semi-auto is perfectly good enough, the US marines have semi and burst-fire (thats what i like) But why do you need full auto on an AK of all the things? :confused: I mean the recoil of the 7.62x 39 round _is_ lower then the 7.62 NATO (7.62x51) but its still too high to give ANY indication that the shooter is anything more then an African monkey (they have a fondness for automatic fire) my advise (and i'm sure that i'll get flamed for it) is that you enjoy the years that you would lose if caught with such a device. learn to rapid fire with that AK, you can count every round with semi, so you have full control of when (if!) you run dry. Remember that you can own semi-auto firearms, us poor British weren't given the choice. We either handed in the hand-guns or were branded as perverts/children killers. We could have revolted but the general public was wedged so far up blairs ass that they don't see the future, and they only believe what the papers report on :mad: :mad: arrggg, my blood pressure

zaibatsu

October 2nd, 2002, 01:35 PM

Full Auto may be a useless option for an assault rifle, BUT I see two reasons for having it. One, it'd be pretty fun. Two, add a longer, heavier barrel, and a bipod, and you could have a makeshift LMG.

EventHorizon

October 2nd, 2002, 02:45 PM

Full auto is fun!!!! Thats why its worth the time if caught. BUT, as far as hitting anything, unless you've extensivly trained firing full auto, most normal people can't hit jack sh*t. I've shot my share of fully auto weapons from subguns to a BAR. If its a 7.62NATO or larger...forget controlling it, but a 5.56 or 7.62X39 isn't to bad. If you want to actually hit something, semi is all you need and if you're looking to inflict major damage, snipe. Read Gunny Hathcocks book and you'll see what I mean. Its amazing how many targets are still standing after you cut loose with FA spray and pray.

ossassin

November 27th, 2003, 08:33 PM

I would not recommend converting an AK to full-auto. Rather, I would suggest converting it to select-fire. You do not want to give up the semi-auto mode in most assault rifles. However, seeing as how the AK was designed for full-auto fire, it might not be such a bad idea. There are better alternatives, though. A select-fire conversion would either need a receiver modification or some part replacements; either would work.

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damn, why is it that everyone thinks that full-auto gives them an edge? Semi-auto is perfectly good enough, the US marines have semi and burst-fire (thats what i like) Full-auto gives one a huge advantage at close ranges. The "burst" feature was used in the M16A2, because after Vietnam, there was a widespread concern about ammo conservation. However, the military, including the Marines, is slowly going back to full-auto. The new M4A1's are full auto, and it is considered the standard-issue rifle. The AK was designed for full-auto fire. It's not a very accurate rifle, but it was made to be reliable and powerful at close range. If you want an accurate rifle that works well on semi-auto, get an AR-15. NOTE: The exception to the full-auto rule is someone who has had years of training. Many spec-ops groups double-tap with semi-auto instead, but most troops can not keep the necessary state of mind and do not have the reflexes.

grandyOse

November 27th, 2003, 10:43 PM

I have a mechanical drawing around here somewhere for the MILLED sks autosear. Easily made with shop tools, and probably easier than trying to bend that sheet steel just right. It I had a way to upload it I would. I know a guy with one of these modified trigger groups. I've seen him fire off 3 to 5 round groups with pretty good accuracy at 50 yards. Also saw him open up and walk the bullet stream onto target where he could hold it for the duration of the magazine. This guy is no marksman, either. I can see the advantage.

Barcy

November 28th, 2003, 02:04 AM

grandyOse. I am sure there would be a number of parties most interested in the milled sks autosear, if you could find a way to upload it in the future. Not that us poor Aussies are allowed to own such semi auto firearms anymore. Your discription of its efficiency beats the demonstration I witnessed many years ago, when a boasting friend insisted he could make his ak/sks full auto. Without testing them action manually, in went a full magazine and he pulled the trigger. Unfortunitely when he released the trigger the thing kept firing. Not only did he risk his life and his spectators when he almost dropped it in panic, he did not hit the body sized target at 25metres once. So although always interested in learning new things (knowledge is power), if anyone was thinking on how they could modify a semi to an auto. I am sure they would also be thinking on doing a manual check of the action, by using a firearm with no magazine or bullets in the chamber pulling back the cocking lever and letting it slide forward on to an empty chamber and than pull the trigger to see if the firing action clicks forward. Now moving the cocking lever back and forwards hold the trigger in and listen and/or feel for the click of the firing action. I would personally try these two steps a few times. Once you feel confident with this I would only load a few rounds into a magazine to test it. If the auto fire seems OK load a few more rounds till you are certain the auto action responds to the release of the trigger. Test fire by trying to make short burst with your trigger control. Not being a wimp when it comes to firearms, but a runaway full auto in another persons hands has already scared the hell out of me once.

grandyOse

November 28th, 2003, 03:38 PM

Barcy, it sounds like the guy turned his firing pin around, or found some other way to make it slamfire. slamfiring is unwise. Not only can it result in runaway FA as you described, it is hard on the bolt and who knows what else, because the round is firing before the bolt is fully engaged. You have made a most excellent suggestion about dry firing to make sure the conversion is working properly.

grandyOse I hope this works, I'm not real wonderful at ascii drawing

............................................ NOT TO SCALE ....1/16...I--3/16---I .......... ALL DIMENSIONS INCHES aprox..../=======I .14deg./=======I 1/16 .........../========I======================I ........../===============================I......1/16 ......../======/=========================I. ....../======/.......1/8 ...../======/ ....I-- 1/8 - - I--1/8 -I ---------------- 5/8 --------------I ....I----------------------- 7/8 ---------------------------I

...........I=================================I ..1/8...I=================================I ...........I====================I============I ..1/8...........CUT OUT.............7/16.....I============I ...........I====================I============I ..1/8...I=================================I ...........I=================================I

................CODE: ----------------- horizontal measuremnt I......................................=========== ============ I.....vertical edge...........=========solid steel====== I......................................=========== ============

November 28th, 2003, 04:53 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter ..../ .../ slant edge ../

iI've edited several times. I guess that's as good as I can do. Just line up the vertical sides and it should look alright. everything is right angles except for the steeply angled front (left) side.

grandyOse

November 28th, 2003, 06:03 PM

I hate doing stuff half-assed. Let me try again. Mods; delete post counts if you want, I'm not rying to be a whore.

================================== ============.1/8.=================== ================================== .................................================= ............7/16...cut.......=======.1/8.=======...........3/8...width .................................================= =================================== ============.1/8.==================== =================================== I---------------------.7/8.-------------------------I

I--1/16--I----3/16----I----------5/8----------I.....length....... .............../////////////////I ..............//////////////////I.........1/16 .............///////////////////I ............///////////////////////////////////////////////////////I .........../////////////////////////////1/16//////////////////////I ........../////////////////////////////////////////////////////////I.........1/4..depth.. .........////////////// ........////////////// .......//////////////.............1/8 ......////////////// .....////////////// ....////////////// ...I---1/8---I----1/8----I------------5/8------------I

hope that's better

Voyager

January 9th, 2004, 11:13 PM

Screw the AK-47. The best firarm plans on the net are the AR-15 CAD plans at http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/ http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/project6/project6.html is an excellent description of building an AR-15 receiver.

Mike76251

January 10th, 2004, 02:55 AM

There are a few notes in this thread about using a twist-tie or a nylon zip-tie on a AK's "trigger hook" to render it full auto. I just took the top cover off one and can see no way for this to work. The claw-like hooks these ties would hold back don't even hold the trigger. The disconector does in the one I just looked at. Even if it did work...........the hammer would just follow the bolt and not have near enough energy to activate the primer. On another important note, never modify a semi into a full auto if the weapon was not designed for it in the first place............aka SKS...........you can get away with a AK conversion because the weapon was designed for it in the first place. A SKS can blow it's top cover too easy when rock-n-rolling and it always comes off straight back (with great force) right into your face.

jackhammer

January 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM

A 7.62 round has enough kick WITHOUT the full-auto.Full-auto gives one a huge advantage at close ranges. The "burst" feature was used in the M16A2, because after Vietnam, there was a widespread concern about ammo conservation. However, the military, including the Marines, is slowly going back to full-auto. The new M4A1's are full auto, and it is considered the standard-issue rifle. The Colt Commando (or M4), is chambered for the 5.56 NATO. I've fired fully auto shotguns easier to control than the AK-47, (although I never got the chance to use the Jackhammer, mostly because it was never really released), and they are far more deadly at close range. Why not simply use the ak-74, or, as voyager said, convert something like the AR-15?

ibuprofen

January 10th, 2004, 06:46 PM

The method described in Nico's post is dangerous. It may work due to the inertia if you timed it right, but it would be a very bad idea. What would happen is the bolt would slam the hammer back, and if it worked the bolt would lock closed again before the hammer made it back to hit the firing pin. If it worked wrong, the hammer could hit the firing pin before the bolt was closed, firing the cartridge partially out of its chamber (slam-fire) and possibly blowing up the gun, some or all the carts in

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the loaded magazine, and ruining at least the gun if not your face (a few inches away). Please don't do it. I don't know enough about the AK to suggest a way that works but I have heard the lightning link works.

lamar pye

January 10th, 2004, 10:26 PM

What you guys are talking about is slam firing conversion......its dangerous and it doesnt work. If you pull out the bolt carrier on your AK have a look at the triangular shaped piece at the back of the carrier, this is what keeps the hammer from hitting the firing pin when the bolt is out of battery. This piece of metal is probably the only thing keeping you from blowing your faces off. The proper way to convert any weapon is to build an auto sear that trips the hammer when the bolt is closed and the carrier is about 3/32 from closing. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is!

tubes

February 2nd, 2005, 07:32 PM

I hope this works, I'm not real wonderful at ascii drawing

Hello Forum, grandyOse, is that ASCII art you posted for an AK-47 auto sear?

Neoknite

February 3rd, 2005, 08:38 PM

Alright i am staring at my ak right now and Lamar Pye has a valid point. When the hammer hits the firing pin with the slam fire conversion the bolt is at the max 1/4 in secure (closed). And this might not be exact cuz i didnt measure it just estimating. But if you where to weld an additional piece to end of the bolt carrier you would be able to allow the firing pin to be hit later. This causes 2 problems that i noticed. The hammer might hit the carrier before fully cambering a round losing inertia and might not fire the round when it is chambered. And this part when the weapon is cocked hits the back of the return spring, so recoil would be added but probably not enough to notice and it would cause a lot of stress on the weld and might break off. But this if it does hold should allow a safer slam fire conversion.

ossassin

February 6th, 2005, 02:02 AM

The easiest and most secret way to do a full-auto-only conversion seems to be a lightning link. There seems to be a little confusion regarding the operating principles behind them, so here are a few resources. http://www.friendshuh.com/llink.html http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html Plans for different types of AR-15 LL's are easy to find, the that picture that was posted earlier on this thread was the first I've ever seen of an AK LL. Does anyone have any information on them at all?

lowjack

February 7th, 2005, 08:31 PM

I've never seen anything other than that two pronged AK47 lightning link. I'm almost positive that they were never patented and sold by any companies as legal RLL's. Not to say they dont work or that it's not worth a try. But I know quarterbones website helped to turn my AR15 into an M16 easy as pie. The AR lightning link works by tugging the disconnecter back as the bolt closes by a 1/16 of an inch or so. How does the AK47 incorporate that lightning link? I'm afraid that if that thing worked as well as the AR15's does that it'd be alot more popular and someone somewhere would have put some info on it on the internet or published a how-to manual, right? I think buying a drill jig, the full-auto parts and your AK probably already has a FA bolt carrier, and doing it right is the safest way to rock and roll. But drilling that hole for the autosear is permanent and highly illegal. But hell, it's not like your gonna offer to let any punk ass cop who might be unfortunate enough to encounter you with your FA AK to come and inspect it now are you? Better just unload into his patrol car and beat feet while he's sitting there reciting the lords prayer atop a pile of his now soiled pig pants. Chances are if the cop is caught off gaurd he'll fumble the persuit by trying to get his now freyed nerves under control. Full-auto 7.62x39 fire isnt something anyone gets over quickly when it's aimed in your direction. Heck neither are 223's.

tomu

March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM

Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a receiver template as PDF can be found at: http://www.akparts.com/ This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK. I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

tomu

March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM

Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a receiver template as PDF can be found at: http://www.akparts.com/ This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK. I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

tomu

March 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM

Lot's of free information about building your own AK receiver from scratch by bending sheet metal and riveting as well as a receiver template as PDF can be found at:

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter http://www.akparts.com/ This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK. I have no ties nor I'm in anyway affiliated with this company.

Jacks Complete

March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM

lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences. You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being caught, since both carry a five to ten year term! Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be out in seven! Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder, wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be able to get a jury trial!

Jacks Complete

March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM

lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences. You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being caught, since both carry a five to ten year term! Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be out in seven! Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder, wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be able to get a jury trial!

Jacks Complete

March 13th, 2005, 08:16 PM

lowjack, that is called the law of unintended consequences. You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being caught, since both carry a five to ten year term! Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be out in seven! Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder, wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be able to get a jury trial!

Storm on the Horizon

July 9th, 2006, 03:41 AM

Yes, that HackCanada file is the 'file of dubious origin' that I was referring to....And here is the site it came from: http://home.earthlink.net/~notpurfect/ semifull.html I know this is an old post, but saw this and thought I should make a correction. The "Lightning Link" and photo of it posted for the AK does work - very well for that matter.... only one problem. It will not work in an AK47. It was miss-identitified. The photo is an SKS autosear. I uploaded two versions of this autosear for everyones viewing pleasure. http://rapidshare.de/files/25343680/SKS_Auto_Sear_Plans.pdf.html and http://rapidshare.de/files/25343753/SKS_Drop-In_Full_Auto_Sear.pdf.html Enjoy.

Do NOT quote whole posts!

furdog

July 23rd, 2006, 03:19 PM

Actually instead of the 10 years and all the bull that comes along with special triggers ect... you can take parts of the romainian full auto parts kit and do the exact same thing without the sear in the front this way its a double pull when you let off the trigger it fires when you pull it fires and with a little bit of filing on the trip and selector notch that holds the rear sear catch you can almost fire 80rds a min trust me its a lot better than going to jail, if ya like i can try and take some pics of the inside my guns and post them. I have about 60 AK47s and 74s and from A to Z on the brands. I also do Custom wood stocks and handles for about anything. I also do have a Class 2 FFL with a SOG stamp . but even i do like idea of 3rd bursts to full auto when you burn up around 14,000 rds in a open field for the love of hearing the sound of a automatic.

festergrump Furdog, Yes, please do try to post some pictures of your FCG in this configuration.

July 23rd, 2006, 06:59 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I had given some thought on how to do this very thing (Georgia state law states a weapon is declared full auto only if more than 6 shots are fired with one trigger action) but assumed this would involve removing the disconnector spring and welding the disconnector in just the right position in relation to the front trigger hook(s). When the trigger is pulled, the hammer is released, recoil of the bolt carrier allows the diconnector to engage the hammer and hold it until the trigger is released, thus allowing a second shot... lather, rinse, repeat... :) I wasn't positive this would work and didn't feel like messing up a perfectly good FCG to try it. From the way you describe your method in your post is leads me to assume it involves a FA disconnector and selector relationship? Just interested in the process. (IMHO, a select fire is the way to go if you're willing to risk the 10 years fed time or bump firing if not. M. Kashnikov made it all too easy on us home-brewers, though! Add FA sear and a rate reducer... BINGO! Rock-n-roll :D ). NOTE: It should be worthy of a mention that most Romanian kits (especially that of the Romy G type, most popular right now) are now coming without a disconnector at all and will need to be purchased seperately in either the FA or semi-auto variety. Always ask before you buy a kit just to be sure you have everything you need to complete a working rifle (since disconnectors are under $10) and you won't have to pay twice for shipping and handling charges (usually around another $10 no matter how small the part). Kudos on your massive AKM collection! I'd love to see a pic of them all lined up and ready for duty, too, if thats possible (gun porn spank material! ;) )... P.S. Also, please be more careful with i/I when refering to yourself in the future. It's the leading cause of death among newbies around here. Just a friendly reminder.

BulletSmith

July 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM

I have heard of a trick where you tie a string to the trigger, loop it around the buttstock and then tie it to the charging handle. When you release the bolt, it goes forward and after it locks up it pulls the triger itself. You could maybe make it more functional by adding a bunjee cord to the mix. The other cool thing is that you can do it to any open bolt semi auto. I'm afraid to do it to my M-1 Garand. :p ++++++++++++ The other thing you could do is learn to put together a decent sentence that doesn't require Daddy ;) to correct it for you. :p NBK

furdog

July 24th, 2006, 08:34 PM

Festergrump, I will try and do some pics of the configuration sometime soon and your right about the rate reducer it is needed but thats it no other parts!!! Simple as the Ultimate trigger system but without all the extras. Here is the pics of the AK's. This is just some of them, the 2 in the middle have custom wood stocks I made! http:// Badcompanyfiishing.Com/IMG_2266.JPG Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the reminder but actually I am within my limits, And as far as the snacks, LOL, they're after hours and she works for the agency you specified! ++++++ You too. NBK

Cobalt.45

July 26th, 2006, 10:31 AM

NOTE: It should be worthy of a mention that most Romanian kits (especially that of the Romy G type, most popular right now) are now coming without a disconnector at all and will need to be purchased seperately in either the FA or semi-auto variety. Very good point. This is getting to be one of those "If I had a nickle for every..." type of thing. Keep one on hand for this reason. If you're not sure, ask. Numrich, among others, have component kits for the Romanian variant for < $120.00. Contains all except receiver, stock and mag.

Panzerfaust29a

July 30th, 2006, 02:52 PM

you can take parts of the romainian full auto parts kit and do the exact same thing without the sear in the front this way its a double pull when you let off the trigger it fires when you pull it fires and with a little bit of filing on the trip and selector notch that holds the rear sear catch you can almost fire 80rds a min trust me its a lot better than going to jail That actually sounds pretty interesting (and I have heard of it), I am not sure I understand how such a modification works is there a document or diagram that explains it?

furdog

July 31st, 2006, 09:40 PM

If there is I have never seen one. Your simply using the trigger from the full auto parts kit. When I have the time to make you some pics of the inside of my gun for a example.

Hammer of God

August 2nd, 2006, 12:56 PM

There is a full-auto AK conversion that requires no reciever modification and is safer than tying back the disconnector. It uses a trip bolted to the safety which pushes the disconnector back upon the bolt's closing, releasing the hammer.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I will upload the plans on rapidshare ASAP.

Genocyde

August 3rd, 2006, 04:37 AM

Here you go, ghetto full auto at its best. LOL +++++++++++ Your attachment is unapproved as being both unoriginal and undetailed. Go back to 4chan if that's the best you can do. NBK

Ok, sorry.. The photo was simply meant as an illustration to BulletSmith's comment above. I have heard of a trick where you tie a string to the trigger, loop it around the buttstock and then tie it to the charging handle. When you release the bolt, it goes forward and after it locks up it pulls the triger itself. You could maybe make it more functional by adding a bunjee cord to the mix. Sorry it's not original. The picture isn't mine, and I wasn't claiming that it was. I should have quoted BulletSmith to begin with though. P.S. Until a Google search a few minutes ago, I had no idea what 4chan is.

Hammer of God

August 3rd, 2006, 12:50 PM

Here are the plans for the AK conversion on rapidshare. http://rapidshare.de/files/28048409/AK_DIAS.rar.html +++++++ Always capitalize acronyms (AK, not ak). NBK

c4550

August 5th, 2006, 01:43 AM

Slam fires will not blow up an AK. I build them as a hobby. If it fires out of battery, the bolt is nearly fully locked in the trunnion when that occurs and will not harm you (likely, no promises). Slam firing is no good for a combat weapon. First, it lacks select fire capability. Second, the hammer follows the carrier on it's way into battery. It frequently lacks the striking strength to set off hard milspec primers. In other words, don't trust your life to a gun that may not go bang. The AK series weapons (AK47,AKM,AK74) are readily converted back to their select fire capability by purchasing a perfectly legal, full auto, fire control group. The FCG has an autosear and rate reducer(sometimes called an anti-bounce device). This is where the drilling of the dreaded third hole comes into play. You drill that hole and get caught, 10 years club fed. You also have to notch one of the lower rails so that the autosear sticks up and can be tripped by the bolt/carrier to release the hammer. This way the hammer gets a full strength drop on the firing pin for those hard milspec primers. The parts are easily obtained online for about $25. You would need a template (sorry, don't have one) to correctly drill the third axis pin hole. 5mm on one side, 7mm bit for the other. To have a gun worthy of trusting your life with, it needs to be in it's original configuration. DIAS, shoestrings, bump firing are all fun but have little combat value. One setup as a SAW might be of some value if used properly with support. The SKS would be my choice if I were to make a SAW. If you want to learn how to build your own AK there is a ton of home builders that post in the "Build it yourself" section here http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77 So, how did I do for my first post? Acceptable or garbage?

macgyver6868

September 7th, 2006, 09:53 PM

If you can find the company, Autowerkes sells the plans for a secondary trigger the mounts below the trigger guard.When pulled, it is supposed to deliver full auto fire from any position. I believe there is a link to the website at Mac10.net

festergrump

September 30th, 2006, 02:35 PM

There's some discussion HERE (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15755) about the two shot trigger (AKA Dead Man's Trigger). Check out Kernel Krink's idea of using a double disconnector system which can be controlled via the selector/ safety lever. Very interesting...

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Devnull

December 20th, 2006, 02:47 AM

There are several sites out there which have the FA parts for the AK-47. Theoretically you can get the tax stamp to allow you to build your own reciever that is full auto. If you don't like meeting bubba and you live in a state where personal property laws are completely eroded it may be worth it.$200 fee/tax, fingerprints and a background check and they should approve it. Since a home made AK-47 is technically not an AK you can get it approved as a USA made device. (Or so I have been told from a lawyer friend of mine...) But hey, your not gonna take that bad boy to the shooting range anyway, are you? Who's gonna know? Just search on the internet for full auto ak-47 for dummies. Good instructions are out there!

DrugRunR

December 31st, 2006, 11:28 PM

No you can't As a private individual (non 007 sot) you can not make a machine gun. That stopped in 1986 For a $200 tax stamp (each) you can build silencers, Short Barrel rifles, and Short barrel shotguns. But you can't build machine guns.

ShadowMyGeekSpace

January 29th, 2007, 11:11 AM

You can manufacture an automatic weapon, because the GCA regulates manufacturing and the like through interstate commerce... although I believe you need a manufacturing FFL (class 3?) to do it.

Defendu

January 29th, 2007, 11:37 AM

because the GCA regulates manufacturing and the like through interstate commerce I believe DrugRunR meant the machine gun and ballistic knife ban of '86, which was attached to the Firearm Owner's Protection Act.

festergrump

January 29th, 2007, 11:45 AM

So far as legalities in the USA are concerned, DrugRunR is correct about the needing a class 7 SOT, and even then it must be a sample submitted for LEO's agency demonstration and approval for future acquisition. Red tape and lots of paperwork apply. Anyone who has or can obtain the correct NFA approved papers can have a preban transferred to them legally (with taxes applied also), but no more manufacturing going on for private use. Check the cost of preban autos and it will reflect what I'm saying is true. There are only so many prebans out there and available for purchase, so the cost is astronomical...

ShadowMyGeekSpace

January 29th, 2007, 11:49 AM

Ahhhhh, my bad. I retract my previous post.

festergrump

January 29th, 2007, 01:22 PM

Just for clarification, the class 3 FFL is for manufacturing a weapon with the intent to sell it. This in no way involves anything which allows a weapon to fire more than one projectile per operation of the trigger mechanism (read: semi-auto, bolt, single shot, and other NON- FA actions). The receiver of the manufactured firearm for sale must include the name and address of the manufacturer imprinted or engraved upon it to even a certain size and depth. :rolleyes: You do not require such a license to make a _______-action (insert legally acceptable action here) firearm for your own personal use in the USA nor does it require any such name or address to be inscribed upon it, however, were one to make several "personal weapons" then find his/herself in dire finacial straights and need to sell them all... it might attract the kind of attentions you'd certianly want to avoid, depending on the quantity sold. Just an observation I made as I do pay close attention to such laws and restrictions for safety sake. :) (me so law-abiding! We need a halo emote just for me... :D)

defiant

January 29th, 2007, 10:50 PM

I keep getting conflicting reports as to whether its legal to manufacture a full auto for personal use, and need to take the time to research the matter for myself. Towards this end, here's a link to the Firearm Owners' Protection Act, Title 18, Chapter 44 "Firearms", §§ 921 et seq.: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt Legal issues aside, except for the dangers of slam firing a weapon, a lot of the preceeding information on AK full autos/ conversions is incorrect or misleading. Slamfiring risks a bolt not being fully engaged, which can result in a cartridge rupturing and dispelling gases and fragments back at the shooter. Safe operation of a firearm requires that the headspace, the distance between the rear of a chambered cartridge and the front face of a locked bolt be within set parameters. Insufficient headspace prevents the bolt from locking, while too much headspace allows the cartridge to stretch rearward when its fired - which increases the likelihood that the cartridge will rupture and/or blow back gas and fragments at the shooter. The difference between acceptable and non-acceptable headspace is measured in the thousands of an inch, so slam firing has risks associated with it.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter With regards to Romanian full autos, they did come out with a model with a full auto assembly that mounts forward of the trigger - but that assembly is for three round bursts. A full auto sear and disconnector are required, so its not a self contained full auto mechanism forward of the trigger. A diagram of the Romanian setup follows: http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/361/3shotburstaktriggerdiagbp7.gif Anyway, the full auto trigger group will still result in slam firing. A full auto AK also includes full auto rails, full auto bolt, full auto bolt carrier, and a full auto safety/selector switch. I'm no expert on full autos, but as I understand it the full autobolt and/or full auto carrier disengages the auto sear in a timed manner to ensure that the bolt is closed or has a chance to fully close prior to the hammer being released. In all likelihood the safety/selector switch disengages the disconnector. I have no clue what the notch in the full auto rail does. One of the projects on my list is to build a cutaway full auto receiver. If I ever get around to it I'll post pics or a vid.

festergrump

January 30th, 2007, 10:59 AM

I have no clue what the notch in the full auto rail does. I tried to use as much of the illustration you provided as I could to show the notch or slot in the right lower rail and how it's needed for the the full auto sear to work. Everything else you mentioned is pretty much correct, the FA disconnector differs from the semi-auto one in that it has a "tail" that the selector/safety uses to disengage it, whereas the semi does not (this lack of a tail will in and of itself render an otherwise FA AKM into a semi-auto only one, but is not enough for the BATFE to recognise as a legal semi-auto only rifle).

From this doctored picture I hope you can get a better idea of how simple the design really is. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/FASearRelationship.jpg When the Bolt carrier brings the bolt to lock within the front trunion it passes over the portion of the FA sear sticking up above the slot in the lower rail, throwing the sear forward, thus tripping the hammer and firing the round. You are correct in how the selector/safety holds the disconnector out of operation, so as long as the trigger is held... the bolt carrier will continue to move freely back and forth, first resetting the hammer to horizontal position (caught again by the notch in the front of the hammer by the auto sear on it's rearward motion, then travelling forward under spring pressure to strip the next round from the magazine and carry it to chamber, tripping the auto sear again once bolt is locked into battery to release the hammer... repeats itself until trigger is released and front hook of trigger interupts the cycle by holding the hammer back despite auto sear already being tripped for next shot. I hope this makes sense... The illustration you provided showing the three-round burst mechanism is more than likely of Polish manufacture, as they were the first to incorperate this into an AKM derivative they designed called the TANTAL, chambering the 5.45 X 39. Now, I believe Russia also uses it on there AK-100+ series, IIRC. Disclaimer: Having an AKM with a receiver which has the holes drilled for the Auto Sear pivot pin AND/OR the slot in the Lower Right rail for the Auto Sear is considered by the BATFE as being in possession of a FULLY AUTOMATIC rifle, whether all the other FA parts are present or not... http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiessen/filme/filme.htm[/url] Without an auto sear or disconnector, the hammer would simply ride the bolt carrier back into battery without enough inertia to fire the round. This especially being true due to the bump on the rear of the FA bolt carrier, which is only a safety feature the FA bolt carrier has (and the semi-auto only bolt carrier has not) to eliminate the risk of possible slam-fires.

defiant

January 30th, 2007, 08:24 PM

The drawing/illustration is of a Romanian Tantal. But as you correctly point out, the Polish Tantal and the Russian AK 100 has 3 round burst as well. Your taking the time on the illustrations and explanation is acknowledged and appreciated, but there are still alot of missing pieces to the puzzle. First, the notch I was talking about is not the one in the drawing - but the notch in the ejector port rail (left side of receiver): http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3614/akreceiverrailannotatedtf7.jpg The semi auto doesn't have this notch. The right side receiver rail is pictured below: http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3715/picturejf7.jpg The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet). I'll bear your advice in mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of the hammer. The receiver in the photographs is a DCI "Premium" receiver. The "Premium" designation includes a receiver with full auto rails. If anyone's got illustrations or photographs of full auto trigger group installed in a receiver - a post or link would be greatly appreciated. The "Full Auto Conversion" book on the AK is essentially useless. It doesn't even show an isnstalled trigger group (I'd have been ripped off if I paid money for it).

festergrump

January 31st, 2007, 11:10 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter There does seem to be alot of needless confusion regarding the workings of a select-fire AKM. Gleaning info from an AKM forum is also a difficult task, as most will not cater to people who are not legally capable of owning a class 3 weapon... My only experiences with a select-fire AKM are from handling one a friend had and brought over to show me. A lot of things clicked in my head once I saw how it was all put together and worked the action slowly, by hand, in each firing mode. Aside from the lower right rail there is no need for a notch or cutout on the ejector (left lower rail) unless this has something to do with the tri-burst parts, which I doubt, but am not sure of entirely. The tri-burst mechanisms I have never had in my possession to fiddle with. The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet). This is an easily made mistake. The right lower rail you show does not have the notch for the auto sear, which it DOES need to be an auto, or it is too dark of a picture to be seen. Look more carefully at the rail from the picture then at the rail in the DCI receiver. The rail in the photo does not appear to have a slotted place for the Auto sear to poke up through whereas the one in the drawing does. The curl on the underside of the LR rail (just atop the mag dimple) is for magazine stability and nothing more (in fact, I have had to grind these down some on Tapco rails to get the mag to fit correctly without canting when building my own semi-auto model. Grind not enough off and the mag will cant and sometimes not feed correctly from the left side of the mag... too much and it will feed correctly but have some irritating magazine wobble). Bear also in mind that in order for DCI to be able to sell a receiver with a slot on the LR rail for an auto sear it would be a class 3 item, as the receiver is the weapon according to BATFE. The slot makes it a "machinegun" as opposed to a semi-auto whether the auto sear pivot-pin holes are drilled yet or not. (man, I know it sucks). Just look very carefully at the rail in your DCI and compare it to the one in the drawing. If there's a difference it should be apparent by paying close attention to the integrity of the topmost side of the rail (the part which will be in contact with the bolt). If it has a cutout about 5/8" x 1/8" on the receiver wall side it's full auto, if it is consistant in it's width the entire length of the rail it is not FA. Here's a picture of a semi-auto rail I have on hand. It's from Tapco. Highlighted are the areas which would need to be removed before it will accept the auto sear: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example01.jpg Alternatively, since the rails are already spotwelded in place on the DCI receiver, you could cut out the entire section with a Dremel-tool and use it like that. The space removed is about 5/8" and the section of bolt which rides on this rail is also about 5/8"... SWIM tells me you shouldn't have much problem since the bolt will pass over this entirely too quickly for the bolt to drop into, so long as the frontmost section remains on the same level as the rearmost (ie: not bent up or down)... :) Here is a picture I just took of how the FA fire control group goes together: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example02.jpg A) B) C) D) E) *)

FCG axis pin Trigger FA Disconnector Rate Reducer spring Rate Reducer FA "tail" on disconnector for selector lever to disengage disconnector when in FA mode

Note: Yes, I do have some FA parts left over from a kit or two. No, I do not ever use them in any of my semi-auto builds. I prefer to replace the entire FCG with US made parts to be 922r compliant, leaving out the rate reducer and it's spring. Hope that helps!

nbk2000

January 31st, 2007, 12:52 PM

I've attached a color corrected version of the picture of the right rail that defiant posted.

festergrump

January 31st, 2007, 03:47 PM

Thanks for the color correction, NBK. :) Now I can see that DCI might have played the 'confusion card' to their advantage... :mad: I'll bear your advice in mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of the hammer. Actually, the armature of the auto sear which contacts the bolt carrier rides beside the magazine in the space allowed (about 1/ 8") by the magazine dimple and LR rail curl and rests just in front of the center support. The auto sear pivot axis is just behind the magazine well, does not interfere with the magazine at all, yet it is barely behind (and somewhat) below the center support. It IS in front of the hammer pivot, though. (it is confusing when explaining it, I know, but so simple when you just see it. My template is in .DXF format and I cannot provide a picture since my printer is out of ink and I cannot print it then scan it full size. I'll post it to Rapidshare in .DXF format if anyone needs it, though). I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures. If this is needed or asked of me, it will better illustrate how it all fits, and I'll be happy to give it a shot. I will NOT brave the cold to to bend the flat, however (BRRR!), and will DEFINITELY not make a select fire receiver... sorry! :o

defiant

February 1st, 2007, 12:30 AM

DCI receivers are available at http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm. The receiver seems ok, but I haven't had time to test fit the trunnions or other parts yet. The Nodakspud add says that the premium receiver includes "top rail step-down" - and further

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter

down the page, "only really needed on full-auto guns"... So they don't say anything about the full auto sear cutout, just the step down which is evidently the "notch" in the left rail (w/the red arrow in the picture above). Semi-auto AK's don't have this left rail notch. I don't know what that notch is for, but sooner or later that will be figured out. As for the cutout notch on the right rail, you appear to be absolutely correct. Courtesy of a full auto kit, photos of the right rail follow: http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7837/rail1oy8.jpg http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7939/rail2se7.jpg So if I'm not misinterpreting anything, the auto sear relationship to the right rail would look something like this: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9402/wautosearhg3.jpg And aligning the spring as shown below, with the bent end of the spring fit into the small hole in the auto sear and the coiled hole in the spring lined up with the larger retainer pin hole in the auto sear: http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9089/searwspringmz8.jpg http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/6328/searwspring2hk7.jpg I haven't figured out what the free end of the spring goes, so any help in this regard would be appreciated ... :rolleyes: I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures. You're explaining yourself fine without the model. Yesterday this was impossible: http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4518/triggergrouplm6.jpg Now for the legal disclaimer: I fully intend to build a full auto ak - but only after researching and complying with the legal requirements. Thus far my research leads me to believe that Class III weapons are legal to own in my home state of Florida, but an individual needs to have a chief law enforcement officer "sign off" that the individual is law abiding, and not a risk to society or the established order. Or something like that. The problem is, reportedly, that law enforcement won't sign the required form. The alternative may be to register the Class III weapon to a corporation - as corporations aren't required to have a chief law enforcement officer sign off. This applies to ownership of silencers, but I'm not positive it applies to full autos or full autos manufactured after 1986. Will post a legal treatise after researching the matter thoroughly.

festergrump

February 1st, 2007, 01:06 AM

I haven't figured out what the free end of the spring goes, so any help in this regard would be appreciated ... Simple. It goes under the Hammer pin and over the FCG pin. This negates the need for a "shepherds hook" or E-clips to hold all the pins in... :D (M. Kalashnikov is my fricken HERO!). Looks like you've got it licked! (that is... except for the legal battle. :eek: ).

Marxist

August 11th, 2008, 10:40 AM

I´ve found this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA) on youtube , it´s not exactly drop-in , but might help...

Springfield

August 20th, 2008, 01:43 PM

^ You beat me to it. And, I don't know how safe it would be, but I believe it's possible to go straight full auto by just removing the disconnecter altogether. Plus that's gives you denyability, because you can say you must have forgotten that step upon reassembling your rifle ;)

festergrump

August 21st, 2008, 11:06 AM

No, that won't work. If you remove the disconnector the hammer will ride the bolt carrier back and not fire the weapon. Even if you ground the safety bump off the rear of the FA bolt carrier, the most you could hope for is a slam fire, but that won't be reliable at all nor in any way safe. Slamfires are DANGEROUS! vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Military Science

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> Gun plans Log in

View Full Version : Gun plans SawedOff8gaugeman

August 12th, 2001, 12:41 PM

There's a topic "weapon plans" but I don't consider it the same(if you disagree just look at some posts in ithttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)... So if you have some links to (preferably pdf) gun plans, you are pushed to post them here. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I already have those exploded drawings of Urban-Armory, Gunsworld etc... the same collection btw seems to be in a variety of web sites. And they are not plans, exactly. The Sten mk II plans: Someone mentioned in an other topic that www.wetworx.com (http://www.wetworx.com) has a link on the "conversions" section. Well, they don't have a link, but they have the pdf as www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf (http://www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf) !!(Found that while searching for gun plans. The only set of plans I found http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif) [This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited August 15, 2001).]

ogi

August 17th, 2001, 09:37 AM

secret to your answer is dont look to hard on on a specific site if your keen enough youll find all your answers on a few different sites try for instance glock there are a few reputable armoures who put in in nick nacks that others dont try finding the armoures manual and go from there plus to do it youll nearly need to be an engineer

b00mslang

October 14th, 2004, 01:17 PM

I seem to have located dozens of copies of MK2 and MKV (Sten) templates for download off of various sites but nothing for the MK3.

azzogat

October 15th, 2004, 04:28 PM

I don't think this thread is apropiate here (don't shoot me if I'm wrong).You only need to dig a little deeper into the Literature thread and you'll discover dozens of firearm plans.So basicly this thread is useless because anybody that finds something of interest (ex: gun plans) will post it in the above mentioned thread.Then again I might be wrong.

shootersharp

November 4th, 2004, 11:30 AM

Someone already found a plan for the sten mk3?

ajt

November 9th, 2004, 02:15 PM

Hello, from what I remember the differences between the sten model designations is of little significance, mostly different barrel assemblies and butt stock differences,though the trigger group on the later models was the forerunner to the Sterling(or so I am lead to beleive).Para versions had foregrip over the barrel/fully moderated barrels etc... Appart from a few minor size differences(tighter tollerances etc) they are(receiver,bolt & trigger group) of basicaly the same simple construction. aj

Bigfoot

November 12th, 2004, 01:05 AM

I'm seeking plans for double shotgun, SxS or O/U. SxS pref with external hammers. This is to be scaled up to 26.5 mm bore, to replicate functionality of Bundewehr issued double launcher, vintage WWII. Example held @ museum in UK, when sold stateside, very costly. If anyone should happen upon plans, I will appreciate being informed.

guerrero

December 23rd, 2004, 11:46 AM

I´m seeking detailled plans (blueprints with dimensions) of some "toys" like boltgun, canegun and buckler of Richard Sardaukar (Sardaukar press). Do somebody know where I can get these?

Joeychemist

December 23rd, 2004, 12:01 PM

You can find everything you need on our ftp, just search. ;) vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> m g42 project Log in

View Full Version : mg42 project herrbauer

August 19th, 2001, 12:49 PM

I'm looking for a conversion p roject for a germ a n M G 4 2 m a c h i n e g u n . T h e firing system is dam a g e d . I f s o m e o n e c o u l d h e l p , would be great.

AR-15 Man

August 19th, 2001, 06:51 PM

Is that it? Dang you are in real good luck. Try to buy som e parts from the US. How bad is it dam a g e d . vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Converting SAR 1 AK-47 to Full-Auto or Select-Fire Teck

May 25th, 2001, 04:02 AM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n l i t e r a t u r e o r a n y p a m phlets on how to conver AK-47s to full or select fire? -----------------------------------------I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ? --Joseph Stalin (and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)

AR-15 Man

May 25th, 2001, 03:25 PM

W ell it isn't easy. You will need to buy a new bolt and trigger parts. You will also have to m odify the receiver for the 3rd sear hole . I d o n ' t h a v e a n y b o o k s b u t I a m g o i n g t o a g u n s h o w a n d i f I s e e a cheap o ne I m ig ht pick it up. But full auto in a combat rifle is high erratic. You can't hit shit. Learning to use the rifle in sem i is much better. You will rack up more kills. If you are wanting to just blast away learn the bump method or buy a trigger device. Either way you will benefit.

HMTD Factory

May 25th, 2001, 09:52 PM

I a m waiting for a bunch of conversion/blueprin ts to hit m y door, once I got them I'll try to go to a scanner.

Teck

May 26th, 2001, 05:39 AM

HTMDFactory: Im looking forward for you on po sting that. Also I know where you can buy the whole kit for select-fire with the auto sear the trigger group and the sele ctor lever and som e other parts wich i dont know where the hell they go all for $70 but I need the directions first just to see what all the parts I need. -----------------------------------------I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ? --Joseph Stalin (and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)

HMTD Factory

May 26th, 2001, 05:55 AM

The auto-kit can be found in Shotgun News, notice auto-conv. parts or kit gun without a receiver.

Teck

May 30th, 2001, 03:05 AM

Most of those advertism ents are m a d e b y g o v e r n m ent agents to catch the people that are stupid enough to actually by kits. Its a Fellony and 10 years in jail for an unregistered full-auto we a p o n . http://plauder-sm ilies.de/rough/fal.gif [This message has been edited by Teck (edited May 30, 2001).]

AR-15 Man

May 30th, 2001, 03:03 PM

Teck is very correct. Most of the adds are sting operations. Especially the one that say's le gal AR-1 5 auto sear. If you look a t the address it is PO Box near Arlington, Virginia. I wonder what's there oh yea just FBI, and ATF he adquarters. You can try s o m e of the bigger com p a n i e s l i k e T e n n e s s e e g u n s , P r o g r e s s i v e A r m s, AA-OK, ect. They are very legit. I should know I live in T e n n e s s e e a n d h a v e b o u g h t p a r t s f r o m T e n n e s s e e g u n s. But sorry AK's aren't ea sy to convert. AR's on the other hand can be done using a lighting link, dro p in parts, and other methods. Anyways is you want a lot of legal full auto just the Class II m anufature license when you get old enough.

Teck

May 31st, 20 01, 11:0 0 PM

Ill be orderin g s o m e parts from www.aa-ok.com (http://www.aa-ok.com ) Check out some of this stuff. http://www.sksparts.com /howwilltheyconficateyo urguns.htm l http://www.sksparts.com /whattodowhenthepolicecom e . h t m l http://plauder-sm ilies.de/rough/com e a n d g e t s o m e . g i f http://www.sksparts.com /arm edrevolutionpossibleandnotsodifficult.htm l http://www.ak-47.net/legal/sear1.txt

AR-15 Man

June 1st, 2001, 11:41 AM

Teck, you ha ve m ade a good choice by going with AA-OK for your parts. I agree with a lot of the links above about the government's plan to take guns. It will happen. Those of you with the ab ility to be future guerillas need to train. Train hard. Assaultweb.n et is a good resource for patriots. But please if you go to their forum s d o n ' t t a l k a b o u t m a n u f a c t u r e o f e x p l o s i v e s . They don't like that. They prefer to keep their black activities secret.

boomfreak

June 15th, 2001, 08:51 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Hey guys, go to www.catco.net (http://www.catco.net) they've got a DETAILED video on ak and ar conversion (call them, it's not on their site). They don't sell them anym ore but if you look h a r d e n o u g h y o u c a n f i n d a m e t a l t e m plate that will locate the auto-sear holes for you. Try the m ach ine shop s in the shotgun news. It's also a good place to pick up the parts you'll need

Teck

June 17th, 2001, 03:54 AM

Thanks all for info.

SawedOff8gaugeman

July 14th, 20 01, 11:2 4 AM

Do you know any place on the internet where ak-47 select-fire conversion kits could be ordered in Europe by mail? (of course such perso n which sends or orders such item s h a s t o b e b a s e d o n a c o u n t r y w h e r e p o s s e s s i n g t h ese parts is legal, otherwise he's insane ) http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif J u s t a s k i n g b e c a u s e i n m y country possessing any gun part is le gal, unless it is a barrel, bolt or receiver, or other part with sim ilar function(think about break action and bolt http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif). Installing such parts and making full-auto modifications is another story, but that's som ething I wouldn't do http://theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b / smilies/tongue.gif [This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 14, 2001).]

SawedOff8gaugeman

July 14th, 20 01, 11:3 0 AM

If I get to know a way to get those parts, I will get som e excuse for the piggery a n d b u y a n a v t o m a t k a l a s h n i k o v h t t p : / / theforum.virtualave.n et/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif C h i n e s e o n e s c o s t a b out 350-400 in $ here. Would you consider that a g ood price ? Finnish ones cost about $2000(they are the best ak's in the world but I won't pay that m uch), and tha t's quite a m o n e y f o r a k a l a s h n i k o v . They are also very advanced from the original ak-47 so I'm not sure if they could b e c o n v e r t e d i n e x a c t l y t h e s a m e m e a n s than regular ak's http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif [ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y S a w e d O f f 8 g a u g e m a n ( e d i t e d J u l y 1 4 , 2 0 0 1 ) . O roginal. http://theforum .virtualave.net/ub b/ smilies/biggrin.gif I m ust have been drunk or smt http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/tong ue.gif] [This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 16, 2001).]

AR-15 Man

July 14th, 20 01, 03:0 7 PM

SawedOff8gaugeman, depends on your country and how rare it is. In the US 350 to 400 is a good price on a post 89 sporter MAC -90 which is a bastardized chinense Type 5 6. As for Valm ets which are related to AK's but much supieror it can be anywhere depending on what it has calibre, how m any m ags, spare parts ect. As for converting valmets it depends on what country you are from b e c a u s e e a c h o n e d o e s d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s t o m a k e t h e m semi. If you are in the US I can tell you what you should pay.

SawedOff8gaugeman

July 14th, 20 01, 04:1 1 PM

W ell, I live in Finland, the home of Valmets http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif As you m aybe already know, Valm e t s e m i a u t o a k w a s d i s c o n t i n u e d a n d a n o t h e r m o d el, Sako M92 S was produ ced for some years. It was discontinued too because it was too expensive ---> was not sold e n o u g h . I f s o m e o n e ' s i n t e r e s t e d ( I g u e s s n o t h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/wink.gif) h e r e < / a > i s a n e x a m p le of how som e com mon guns are priced in Finland. I guess the prices a r e t h e s a m e or higher than in U.S, depending of the gun's origin etc., of course. And now I'm talking about legal g uns purchased from an authorized dealer, of course.

AR-15 Man

July 14th, 20 01, 11:3 9 PM

How hard is it to have full auto in Finland? I hear it is pretty easy. And very little wait. If I was you and was gonna use the 7.62x39 round go with the Chinese AK because the better design of the valm et won't help the accuracy of that round. As for .223, .308, then go for a Valm et. Unless you can get AK-74's cham bered in either .223 or 5.45x39 . Or you might be able to in Finland get the Russian AK-100 series. That wo u l d b e a b l e s s i n g . Or what about Galil's they are still made. That is alm o s t o n par with a Va lm et.

SawedOff8gaugeman

July 16th, 20 01, 01:2 9 PM

Nope, it is not easy. It is practically impossible. Only an authorized firearm s collector has the possibility to possess full-auto weapons legally. T h e t i m e y o u h a v e t o wait to get a gun is not u sually a problem a n d i t d e p e n d s o n where you live and how lazy people you h a p p e n t o m eet. For a gun-owner, Finland is alm ost a nightm are.

HMTD Factory

August 22nd, 2001, 11:01 PM

U.S. now has it's own "dom estic" semi AK-47's that uses U.S. m ade receiver and foreign parts...to com ply with assualt weapon import ban.

will36

February 3rd, 2007, 09:36 PM

Hey guys, go to... John Norrell sells them he is a class3 man. and the inventor of the norrell 10/22 trigger pack. (the 9,000 dollar ones)

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Don't quote whole posts. NBK

blackice

February 26th, 2007, 10:43 AM

http://nw0.in fo/ E-books, firearm s full-auto conversions, plus m any others.

macgyver6868

March 11th, 2007, 06:19 PM

W ithout gram m ar: just look on gunbroker.comor ftfindustries.com.both have drill jigs that you use as a temp late for the autosear hole.ftf has a very fast shipping tim e and i have yet to hear the feds at m y do orstep.

W ith gramm ar: Just look on www.gunbroker.com or www.ftfindustries.com. Both have drill jigs that you can use as a tem plate for the autosear hole. FTF has a very fast shipp ing time and I have yet to hear the feds at my doorstep.

O n e p o s t l o o ks like shit, the other doesn't. See the difference good gram m ar ma kes? Use it. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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October 26th , 2001, 03:55 AM

This should go into the archive so it ca n be found in a search. The trickier part of making a survival .22 or a disguised .22 at hom e is the barrel and rifling. The stuff here gives solution and answer for th o s e w h o a s k e d " W here ca n I find a .22 barrel" or "How do I put rifling in my .22 barrel" .22 Barrel LinerA thin tube(25" or 32" in length) of chrome moly steel with internal dimension(.223) and rifling(1-16 twist or 1-20 twist) to fit a .22 rim fire bullet. W hy people use it and how to install it: W hy: .22 Barrel liners are for converting bigger rifles into shooting .22s or re-boring worn out .22 barrels. O r people(you) want to turn s o m ething into a .22 barrel without the works. How: First a barrel blank(aka "a ste el rod that is thick enough") is drilled to fit the liner. As the liner inserts into the drilled hole, soldering compound or Acraglas is add ed to fill the gap between liner and original barrel. The Acraglas will glue them together or hot solder do the job. Last, cut the new barrel precisely and a chamber ream ing job. Now you ha ve a .22 barrel. The liner will stand pressure of a .22LR or anything less than that(no .22 Hornet or .223 R em, sorry!) The liners can be found in Bro wnells Catalog, but m o s t g u n s m i t h e s h a v e s o m e liners as .22 lining is a popular dem a n d . Brownells website W W W .Brownells.com (http://W W W.Bro wnells.com) It's quite a coincidence that this post added m y total post number to 222... [ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited October 26, 2001).] vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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May 24th, 2003, 03:00 PM

king s p a z Freq uent Poster Posts: 347 From : U K Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-19-2001 05:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------i'm hoping this is the right pla ce for this topic. anyways i was wondering whether the deactivated military guns that are sold to military enthusiasts can be reactivated so they work again. has anybody here been successful in doing this? any replies will be appreciated .

skunkdude New Mem ber Posts: 30 From : R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001 posted 04-19-2001 05:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------W hat type of gun?

Aggy Freq uent Poster Posts: 44 From : Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-19-2001 05:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I ' v e b e e n a s k i n g t h e s a m e question for about a year never get m uch of a respon se. You basically have to replace or drill do wn the barrel an d install certain p arts like firing pins extractors etc.

king s p a z Freq uent Poster Posts: 347 From : U K Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-19-2001 05:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------thanks for th e replies guys i'm thinking it would need quite a bit o f work to fix it up again because they weld the barrel aswell as rem oving parts. i think it c o u l d b e d o n e if you had like a diagram or plans for the gun because you could see whats m issing . does anybody know where you could get such plans?

jin Freq uent Poster Posts: 111 From : u k Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-19-2001 06:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------there was som eone called antony micthell who reactivated mac10s and sold them to crim e g a n g s . b u t h e w a s a q u a l i f i e d engineer who reactivated them by fitting a new barrel and breech block.

zaibatsu Freq uent Poster Posts: 407 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-19-2001 07:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Also you have to take into account the fact that you will also have to be able to get am m o for this gun, which you m ost likely won't if you live in the uk.

YTS Freq uent Poster Posts: 61 From : R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001 posted 04-20-2001 05:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------a m m o i s n t a p r o b l e m just buy inert am m o and it would it would be easy to make live the hard bit would be reactivating a de act ive got old spec de-acts and the least you would need is a decent lathe revolvers would be easier as you can sle e v e t h e m to a lower calibre that would be quite simple?

zaibatsu Freq uent Poster Posts: 407

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From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-20-2001 05:10 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------H o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o m a k e i n ert am m o live? Sure you can use m atch he ad powder for the prim ers, but what about the propellant? What are you going to use for that? You can't use BP in sem i-autos, I doubt it would cycle properally. However, you could use it in a revolver. You could however make your own gun cotton, but how reliable do you think it would be? I'm a s k i n g this because of a long-term project I'm dream ing up. -----------------Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto Visit m e at www.surf.to/eliteforum

AR-15 Man Freq uent Poster Posts: 180 From : Registered: OC T 2000 posted 04-20-2001 05:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you were in the US it would be so m uch easier to buy a STEN kit and get the receiver tem plates. It also d e p e n d s o n w h a t y o u are wanting to reactivate.

jin Freq uent Poster Posts: 111 From : u k Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-20-2001 06:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------you can get 9m m para blanks in the uk which contain sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r a n d a r e t h e s a m e c a l i b e r a s s o m e s u b m a c h i n e g u n s and pistols.

Anthony Moderator Posts: 2306 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-20-2001 09:09 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I ' v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t s o m e 9m m b l a n k s a n d I s e e m t o h a v e a c h o i c e o f r e g u l a r s a n d A u t o . Are the auto's tapered for use in automatic loading weapons? I'd also think they're filled with sm okeless powder so that they don't foul the mechanism if they're i n t e n d e d f o r a u t o m atics.

Bitter Freq uent Poster Posts: 290 From : 11 Downing Street, London, England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 04:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------T h e b i g g e s t p r o b l e m I have had is finding prim er cups/anvils. W h e r e d o y o u g e t t h o s e m atches with the white tips from in the UK ? I have never seen any.

Aggy Freq uent Poster Posts: 44 From : Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 09:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------In the UK you can buy primers, cases ,bullets and the m achine to put them together with out a license but you need a license for the blackpowder.

Bitter Freq uent Poster Posts: 290 From : 11 Downing Street, London, England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 09:34 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Are you absoloutely sure about the prim ers etc ? It's an awful shame about needing a lice nce for black/sm okeless powder, but I reckon buying prim ers would be great (just think of the fun you could have after extracting the LS/MF out of them ).

zaibatsu Freq uent Poster Posts: 407 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 12:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bitter, are yo u serious? I guess you just want to know where to find the strike-anywhere m atches, for use in impro p rimers? All the strike-an ywhere matches in the UK have red heads, ie: Swan Vestas, Cooks Matches, they are all strike anywhere m atches. I'm pretty su re the white-tip m atches are just the same as the strike-anywhere m atches we have h ere. Just look for m atches with a strip of glass paper on the side of the box and these will be the right ones. -----------------Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto

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Bitter Freq uent Poster Posts: 290 From : 11 Downing Street, London, England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 01:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------W hat I was talking about were those m atches with a white tip. I thought the com mon pink strike-anywhere m atches were a m ixture of the white 'igniter' p art m ixed with the red 'fuel' part, rather than them b e i n g s e p e r a t e . T h e s e s t r i k e - a n y w h e r e m atches don 't seem to be anywhere near as sensitive as anyone claim s, so I assumed they were different...

zaibatsu Freq uent Poster Posts: 407 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 01:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter.

zaibatsu Freq uent Poster Posts: 407 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-21-2001 01:37 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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May 24th, 2003, 03:01 PM

DaRkDwArF Freq uent Poster Posts: 258 From : Austra lia Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-22-2001 08:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------o k I w a s t a k i n g a l o o k o n f i r e q u e s t . c o m and I noticed a 12ga flare gun, it looks very plastic like but I'm wo ndering if it could hold the pressure of a real shotgun shell, also wonderin g how much of it is plastic... any help will be greatly appreciated

PYRO 500 Moderator Posts: 1465 From : s o m ewhere in florida Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-22-2001 09:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------hell no! those things are flim sy as hell and flares put out wuss p ressure, that wou l d e x p l o d e i n y o u r h a n d I u s e d t o h a v e o n e a n d t h e t h i n g b r o k e o n m e, (after a couple of shots) yo u could theoreticly load a shell by cutting off the narrow tip of the flare gun but all I'd shoot is a blank a weak one at that. plus flares dont get that hot for that long so you'd be e ndangering your gun as it might m elt. plus how are you going to deal with the recoil? if I was gonn a g e t a h a n d h e l d shotgun I'd get a revolver .410 like the one in three kings. I think it is called a thunder 5

Agent Blak Freq uent Poster Posts: 766 From : S k . C a n a d a Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-22-2001 10:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------why not just fire flares. I bet you that shit would hurt plus you ca n get capsism ( O C ) r o u n d s f o r t h e m .

PYRO 500 Moderator Posts: 1465 From : s o m ewhere in florida Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-22-2001 10:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I dont think a flare would hurt someon e that bad unless it hit them in the face, they are just little light card b o a r d b a l l s a n d they dont go that fast they'd probably bounce off of you. I'd con s i d e r b e a r b a n g e r s o r c a p s a c i s u m r o u n d s b u t I ' d g e t a h o m e m ade wad shooting g un with a brass flare gun the wads travel around 400 fps witch is 100 fps faster than p a i n t b a l l g u n s a n d pepper spray can backfire majorly

Mad Dog New Mem ber Posts: 32 From : Registered: APR 2001 posted 04-22-2001 11:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I was hit by a flare once from 50-60m away, the only result was slight pain and a burn patch on m y jacket. -----------------If you kill som e o n e a nd it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?

SofaKing Freq uent Poster Posts: 399 From : YEAH RIGHT !! Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-23-2001 05:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Although I tend to ag ree with the others who have alrea dy poste d, you could saftly test fire the gun by going to a secluded spot strapping the fla regun to a tree with a string attached to the trigger and get bethind a DIFFERENT tree and pull. I doubt that that would accom plish m ore than a wasted flare gun but know you know. -----------------W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom

DaRkDwArF Freq uent Poster Posts: 258 From : Austra lia Registered: SEP 2000 posted 04-24-2001 06:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hm m m perhaps OC rounds are the best best, deal with a group instead of using flares on individuals.

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what about replacing the barrel? would it be able to stand one of NBK's shotgun grenades? [This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited April 24, 2001).]

EP Freq uent Poster Posts: 108 From : U SA Registered: APR 2001 posted 04-27-2001 01:12 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yu can buy "bird bom bs" specially m ade for 12 gauge flare guns that are for scaring birds. They are basically an m 80 that shoots from a flare gun. Im sure a flare gun would blow apart with a real shell.

Bigfoot

May 27th, 2003, 02:34 PM

I checked with firequest a while back--the frame and breech face are steel, the barrel is plastic. www.guns2u.com sells an all-steel 12 ga flare gun as a self-defense pistol. If you can get one of those thru a friend in Europe, m ore power to you.

T h e r e ' s a d u d e i n F L s e l l i n g a . 4 1 0 a d a p t e r f o r 2 5 m m flare guns, price is about USD$120. P M J B v o l 2 h a s a q u i c k i e a b o u t m a k i n g a m ini .22 pistol using a 25m m f l a r e g u n , a n d a c o u p l e o f a d a p t e r s . I h a v e s e e n s u c h a device tested. My own inclination is to use one of the sturdier steel flare guns from Russia, and adapters to fire 9m m P a r a or .45 ACP. Testing is scheduled for July this year. A bloke with access to a m illing m achine could probably duplicate the plastic flare barrel in s t e e l , t h e n u s e h o t l o a d s . Ergo nomics will suck. Better to m ake zip gun with 3/4" pipe, lumber. Edited to correct the link - Zaibatsu vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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June 26th, 2003, 03:34 PM

The_Coyote A new voice Posts: 18 From: Registered: DEC 2000 posted March 25, 2001 08:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Does anyone have plans for a homemade pistol to shoot .22 caliber amunition? Preferably .22 birdshot? I want to clear my feild of some rabbits, but there are some new homes in a development across the street and I find birdshot to be the most silent ammo. -----------------Gun control is being able to hit your target.

PYRO500 Moderator Posts: 1478 From: somewhere in florida Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 25, 2001 08:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------the most silent ammo you can get is subsonic, download angelo's files, I think there is a 4 winds shotgun in there, just make a sleeve for the 22 bullet or a small 4 winds shotgun , beware zip guns arent the safest things in the world to hold in your hands

Crux Frequent Poster Posts: 71 From: australia Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 25, 2001 09:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If the "Birdshots" are the one's i'm thinking of you will have a hard time killing a rabbit with them. we had some and I was trying to shoot some crows with them. I must have been only 10m away and it wouldn't kill them..

BaDSeeD Frequent Poster Posts: 80 From: buffalo, ny Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 26, 2001 12:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------22 bird shot sucks period. They use such small shot, that they have no power beyond about 10 feet! At about 15 feet... they wont even puncture an empty soda can. The only use i have seen for them... is for against snakes. From the range of your hand.. to your feet (keeping in mind not to shoot your feet) they do a lot of damage. Thats about all they are good for. If you are mowing the lawn, or fishing, hiking, etc.. they are good for snakes. Any other uses however.... forget it.

-----------------BaDSeeD Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

burugle A new voice Posts: 2 From: oslo,norway Registered: FEB 2001 posted March 26, 2001 03:36 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Don't use the .22 birdshot... It won't penetrate unless you get really close. If possible use a silenced .22 rifle, if not ordineary .22 ammo don't make mutch noice, so noone will take any notice. Or you could try setting some snares. Works great on rabbits, rodents, neighbours cats ect. -Good Luck!

BoBFrequent Poster Posts: 657 From: Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 26, 2001 11:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, if you dont have any kids, I would recomend some non-explosive traps But hey, shooting them is more fun, theres a few active topics about silencers. just...remember where your traps are

richl261 Frequent Poster Posts: 134 From: uk Registered: MAR 2001 posted March 26, 2001 12:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------why not buy a .22 pistol? unless ure in england where every thing is illegal just buy an air gun to kill the rabbbits..

The_Coyote A new voice Posts: 18 From: Registered: DEC 2000

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posted March 26, 2001 07:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can not buy them. I live in ontario where you can't get anything. Also I am 16 so I can not get one until I am 18. Also where I live no stores will sell them with out a shit load of paper work... I don't know why though. It's a pellet gun for christ's sake!!!! And a .22 I can not get anywhere with all the licensing you have to go through, and you also need to be 18. I might try my recurve or crossbow on them, but I can't aim worth shit. -----------------Gun control is being able to hit your target.

Agent Blak Frequent Poster Posts: 770 From: Sk. Canada Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 26, 2001 10:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you live in Canada the is a store called Canadian Tire they sell so not bad stuff you only have to be 18(get you buddy or brother).

SMAG 12B/E5 Frequent Poster Posts: 61 From: Registered: FEB 2001 posted March 26, 2001 11:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you end up improvising, and don't need a long barrel, check out the automotive shop scrap bins. There are some "push rods" used in some V-8 (Chrysler???) that are 22 cal in ID. Use caution.

c0deblue Frequent Poster Posts: 229 From: Registered: JAN 2001 posted March 27, 2001 12:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------The push rods could be a good solution, provided they'll chamber a .22 cartridge. They're hardened, so the ball ends will have to be ground (not sawed) off. The interiors often are encrusted with engine residues that can be quite tough to remove - try to find the cleanest ones and insure the bores are smooth before firing live rounds. The strength should be more than okay. We used to use sections of auto antenna (brass and about .25 internal), and a .22 LR fit so loosely it had to be held in with scotch tape. When these "weapons" were fired the shell case would expand to the larger diameter so tightly it would have to be hammered out using a ramrod. Accuracy was of course nonexistent, but I never heard of any blowing up when properly constructed. Very simple (disposable) guns can be made by taping the barrel(s) to a piece of wood and using a door "slidebolt" for the firing mechanism. A few heavy duty rubber bands provide the "spring", and the bolt is drawn back and "cocked" in the slide notch. Just push the handle up out of the notch to fire. Multiple barrels are possible using this method, provided they're aligned so the bolt hits a portion of all (firing is simultaneous). Not fancy, but effective and cheap. [This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited March 27, 2001).]

PYRO500 Moderator Posts: 1478 From: somewhere in florida Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 27, 2001 03:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------you could buy a bang stick, I dont think they need a licence, then you solder a metal tube to the back of the part that screws onto the bullet, then to fire you slam hard on the handle going through the tube withck you are holding. you might need to make a support for this though and they are wildly in accuarate

NightStalker Frequent Poster Posts: 116 From: Registered: DEC 2000 posted March 27, 2001 03:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have a quite nice improvised .22 gun. It is made from a 6mm blank cartridge revolver using a 5,5mm steel pipe as barrel and a homemade silencer attached. It's not too accurate but it does the job. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Gun Plans - Archive File megalomania

June 26th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Anthony Moderator Posts: 2321 From : England Registered: SEP 2000 posted March 13, 2001 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's some drawings from Will, one o f our resident lurkers. They m ay be factory diagram s and include the Germ a n P P S H 4 1 s u b m a c h i n e g u n a n d t h e T h o m s o n s u b m achine gun. http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza /2978/ Thanks Will

ossassin

Novem ber 27th, 2003, 09:25 PM

The PPSH41 is actually Russia n . T h e s e a r e g o o d plans, but I wish they were in .pdf form at. How hard do you think it would be to m ake the receiver for this thing? Maybe I should stick with guns that have sim ple receivers, like the Sten. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Homemade AR-7 type rifle A-BOMB

July 16th, 2003, 10:41 AM

Well Its been awhile since I've posted anything about the guns I make, and this gun is going to be a good one so heres some specifics about it. I'm still waiting for some of the parts. Well I'm going to buy the barrel/s from HERE (http://www .e-gunparts.com/featureproduct.asp?chrProductSKU=878300&Super=N&MC=YJ) Numrich has more gun parts than God. And if you ask why about the rusty barrels it because I'm cheap and 5 for $19 you cant beat that. And I'll be buying the metal tubes for the receiver/barrel block/bolt from here ww w.onlinemetals.com. I'll post my diagram in a minute right now I have to get some stuff out of the drier before it rinkes.

knowledgehungry

July 16th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Very nice site, thanks for posting it. What type of action is your gun going to be? bolt action? semi auto? full auto:D ? Sorry but im not familiar with AR7's.

A-BOMB

July 16th, 2003, 01:57 PM

Its going to be a semi-auto in .22lr caliber but its to hard to explain right now I need to scan in my diagrams I'll get around to posting them later, it depents if I can finish this damn VB course work. Here is a picture of the parts I have currently aquired they are ontop of some of my schematics for the gun I'll scan them or take pictures of them soon. HERE (ftp://ewf:[email protected]/Hosted%20Images/A-BOMB/Pcdv00054.JPG)

zaibatsu

July 16th, 2003, 07:00 PM

Is it going to be blowback? Open or closed bolt? Are you making it so that you can dissemble/stow it aw ay in the stock like the AR7? AR7s look like fun rifles, I think you can also buy them over here.

A-BOMB

July 16th, 2003, 10:17 PM

Its going to be a closed bolt, blow back, semi-auto, Its going to be AR-7 like but will not be able to be disassabled its going to have a strong center pin on which the action and barrel will fold on like a door hinge. I pull out the bolt that hold it in place and fold it back into a slot cut in the stock. I'm thinking of useing a mak-90 or AK thumb hole stock because there big and look cool and real cheap like $16. And ya I could buy a AR-7 at a gun show or from there website but they offen have big problems, metal shaving left in the chamber, bent parts, screw holes stripped, massive feed problems. I'm not saying that mine wont have these at first but in mine I'll have know I've built it myself, and it I'll be cheaper too.

Charlie Workman

July 18th, 2003, 03:31 AM

Sounds cool A-bomb. Love to see it when you're done. Personally, I hate the AR-7. Owned both the pistol and rifle versions and neither were reliable for shit. Most people I talked to really like them, so maybe I got the bad ones. Had a manual on full-auto conversion for it, which I always thought was a giggle, since I could never get them to fire more than two rounds on semi before they jammed. "To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!" -Gidget

A-BOMB

August 4th, 2003, 10:02 PM

I just ordered the barrel, stock, receiver tube, bolt metal, springs, and other part that I didn't have. Since the barrels I w as going to order is out of stock I have to order this one HERE (http://www .e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU= 586860). But the rest of the parts w ere in. Here is the metals I am going to use the .75"(ID) tube if for the rifle and the .875"(ID) is for the SMG version which will need a heavier bolt to contain the recoil of the shorter length bolt that is needed in the SMG version. The SMG version is going to be P-90'ish that it is going to be a bullpup unit w ith the mag over the barrel. Its even going to have bullets that are similar, .125" TI rod in a 5.45mm semi- dicarding teflon sabot. I should have the parts by Saturday or Sunday Monday the latest. But first I have to find a .375"(3/8") metal drill and get a new belt for my drill press. https://ww w.onlinemetals.com/check_order_status.cfm?id=49500&step= 2

A-BOMB

August 6th, 2003, 11:49 PM

Well I got the barrel and stock to day, and all I can say about the barrel is I HATE cosloimine grease it is the anti-christ lord of no come-offyness and stickyness it doesn't want to come off! I used a couple of quarts of kerosen taking that shit off. And the stock has some dinks and nicks, and I'm happy with the files I got too, thought I did forget some things one the order, I'll get the sight rail/scope rings later. Here is a pic of the blue print because my scanner just bit the dust (I cracked the glass plate) perminatly so heres a pic.

angelo

August 7th, 2003, 03:44 AM

A-BOMB have you ever used shellite. Its more expensive than kerosene but it does the job alot better.

Arkangel

August 7th, 2003, 08:55 AM

I've not found any lubricant that acetone w on't dissolve in a jiffy

A-BOMB

August 7th, 2003, 08:59 AM

Angelo, do you think this 'Shellite' it avalible in the US? And if it were, where do you think I w ould be able to find it,? Well I got $18 dollars left on my prepayed credit card to use up any ideas, I borrowed the drill bits I'll need and the locking pins and cutoff w heels for my dremel tool. Oh that reminds me I bought every thing w ith one of those new prepayed credit cards I got a CVS I think this thing is great you pay a $9 dollar one time fee and then can put any amount from 20 to 500 on it. To recharge you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then put more money on it. Though you do have to call in and give them information on were to send the card w ith you name/exp date/pin. So anybody have any idea on what I could buy with it item+ shipping for $18 ?

GibboNet

August 8th, 2003, 05:28 AM

Shellite is a spirit like metho, used for old style camping stoves. You'll find it at most camping / hardw are stores. Also, w ould you mind explaining the pre-paid credit card ?

A-BOMB

August 8th, 2003, 11:00 AM

Sure, I was a CVS( a chain drugstore over here in the US) picking up some candy and cold-packs, w hile I was at the counter getting rung up I saw the prepaid credit card. So I bought one it has a $9.95 activation fee then I could put as much money on it as I w anted($20-$500) so I bought it for $90 dollars gave the man at the counter his money and he activated the card and it temporary pin. I got home and opened up the papers that came with it I went to the website and read/accepted the end user aggrement. Entered in my information address,phone,birthday etc etc etc. Then I called the number on the form, gave them the info again and then they gave me the new real pin number, exp date, and security number and then they asked me if I wanted to upgrade etc etc etc and other shit, then said I'd get the real card w ith the data on it in 7 to 10 days and that I could use that temporary card online till the real card comes, that will allow me to use it in a real store(the temp card has a one time use magnetic strip). It w as a bit of a hassle but hell its easies than sending a check, to recharge the card you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then add more money to the account, and there is a $4 monthly service charge but aleast I'm not paying intrest anymore+ the monthly charge so I works for me for how little I use it. check out www .mymccard.com to see more

angelo

August 9th, 2003, 06:02 AM

Well I know shell produces it. I do believe its proper name is x-55 petroleum spirit. But I'd have to check for you. We recently bought a 200 litre drum of it at work.

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I don't think acetone would be very safe. Sure it will dissolve anything, but that includes your hands. Be careful Arkangel.

A-BOMB

August 12th, 2003, 11:30 PM

The metal tube for the reciever was suppost to come today but the the UPS guy got lost and called me for directions, he said that me address must not exist because he could not find it. Then he reads me the address and its the right address and I tell him its right, and he said I was wrong about that. Then I tell him if my address doesn't exist then how am I on the phone w ith you from it now. Then he asks me for directions, so he can deliver it the next day because his shift is over. :mad: I'm thinking of killing him and taking his truck tommarrow , I wonder how much goodies would be inside?

chemwarrior

August 13th, 2003, 04:25 AM

Hehe, A-Bomb.. killing him might be a little extreme... but tying him up and leaving him in the w oods..... Also, I have one of those pre-paid credit cards too.. They work w onders when your under 18:)

A-BOMB

August 13th, 2003, 03:54 PM

The metal Tubes just came! Let the production begin! But there is one thing wrong with my order when I talked to the guy from the store I he told me the tube would be seamless, well its welded seam tube I will just take me some time to grind it out with a file. I should be able to start it this evening right now I got to sleep, I've been up for the last 23 hours clearing the w ater and shit (real shit) out this house I was rentovating the main sew age line broke,up in a wall on the second floor and it ran down throught the walls dow n into the basement.

A-BOMB

August 14th, 2003, 11:03 PM

I just cut the 12 gauge plate steel for the low er receiver and bent in the flanges for w elding, have ground the seams out of the pipe and have started adding metal to the outside of the barrel with my MIG, as the barrel is sightly less than .75" on the outside so I have to add more metal then grind it aw ay to make it fit in perfectly. I should have the bolt started soon and the extractors, firing pin, and sear finished soon too.

A-BOMB

October 17th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I haven't updated my progress in a long while so here it goes I have finish milling out the trigger group and drilled the respective holes in the lower and have finished the bolt and have gotten it hand cycling shell semi-reliably just need final polishing. Soon I w ill have to take all the parts over my budies metal shop to have them heat treated, harden and blued then comes fire testing.

NickSG

October 17th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Cant w ait to hear the results. Make sure to get some good pictures too! :)

A-BOMB

December 4th, 2003, 01:44 PM

Well here is a update I have to make a new trigger group and alot of other stuff now , I got it out to the range and terror strikes, I load a shell up and it fires so far so good, I load up 2 shell and they fire once with each pull of the string then I load up the whole clip of 21 this is w hen the bad happens, It seems that the sear slowly falls down after holding the striker for awhile, I get up and go over to the bench w ere I got the gun bolted to and I look through my spotting scope at the target to see were I hit it and the gun just goes full auto on me. One of the shells mis-chambers and fires in the action blow ing out the rear receiver plug, springs, striker and bolt out the rear of the receiver into me as I'm over the gun looking through the scope. Well the damage is bad I need to cut off the chamber section of the barrel and rechamber it. Grind out the gouges out of the face and sides of the bolt, grind out the cuts out of the receiver then I'll need to see if I need to make a new receiver or if this one can be salvaged. And redesign the trigger group and make a new set and harden them. So after this I find the internals and servey the damage and packup everything to get home as I'm driving home I see this estate sale so I stop by, and god I wish I got there earlier, I mean this guy w ould have be a perfect member, he had so much stuff guns, paintball markers, rockets, RC cars/planes/ boats, a big lab room with every thing we would ever want electronics, chem equipment, metal w orking equipment, and a shit load of military surplus. I wish I could of bought it all. I wish I could of bought the entire house! But there is never enough money w hen you need it :mad: I only was able to get this box with all this paintball stuff and a bunch of electronic and a military gear harness set kind of think and a bunch of D rocket motors. But I may be able to use some of the paintball gun stuff especialy this E-trigger that what is the box. If I can get it to work and fit I will have a semi,3rd burst, and full-auto functions.

Jacks Complete

December 5th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Oh, shit! Lucky for you you hadn't gone forward to change the target! Did you get hit by anything?

A-BOMB

December 5th, 2003, 11:06 PM

I got a finger nail torn off and some metal fragments from the case in my right hand right now so I'm typing lefty, I'll dig out my surgical kit later and dig them out some time right now it just give me an excuse to not be at work. The most damage was to the rifle I'll heal quicker than the rifle will.

xyz

December 5th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Very sorry to hear that A-BOMB, looking forward to seeing the AR-7 w henever you eventually get round to finishing it. Next time a newbie posts a stupid thread about how they want to make a homemade firearm, give them the link to this post so that they can see what .22LR can do to an experienced member. That should make them think twice about wanting to make a .308 or a .50BMG...

A-BOMB

December 8th, 2003, 11:26 AM

Well I thought about it and I'm going to rebuild the rifle into a bullpup design like in this draw ing, I have looked at the e-trigger and it is lacking in sear strength so it is out but one of the other triggers will w ork so i'll use that. the lower draw ing is was the gun looked like before the upper one is what the gun will look like after I'm done rebuilding.

Jacks Complete

December 8th, 2003, 01:11 PM

A-BOMB, are you going to list the notations? It would help! :) Nice idea.

A-BOMB

December 8th, 2003, 01:36 PM

Sorry about that forgot A: Barrel B: Trigger/trigger guard C: Stock D: Clip E: Clip relese F: Stock again G: Buttplate relese H: trigger group I: Buttplate J: Receiver/recoil and firing pin springs K: Firing pin/extractor L: Bolt I got the idea for remaking it a bullpup from the fact that the stock is now gouged out were the receiver was before I would looke neater as a bullpup, So I'm going to put the stock on my bandsaw and cut it in tw o then I will hollow out the sections of each side to acommindate the receiver and mechinisms

Ammonal

December 9th, 2003, 07:43 AM

Just throw ing ideas around A-BOMB, I am working on Bill Holmes .22 Machine pistol at the moment and I have had to improvise a couple of things because I lack a mill. I like

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your idea of converting to bullpup, but I have one concern with bullpup firearms (yes I have experience w ith the Steyr AUG, and the only thing besides that the weapon is made out of plastic) is that the action is right beside your face. Because of this I am making double of each part for the machine pistol in the hope that once I get the standard layout working w ell, I would like to try a bullpup version. The only difference is that I have made all of the upper reciever alot heavier (3mm wall DOM seamless) and the endcap is 12mm thick with a 6mm pin holding it into the end of the upper reciever. Earlier in this thread you spoke about making a P90'ish model, and as I am lacking in high capacity magazines and they are extremely difficult to come by, I was wondering if you had any information or diagrams of the magazine system used in the P90

A-BOMB

December 9th, 2003, 11:33 AM

The P-90 uses a horizontal double stack maginzine with a rotating section on the rear to line the bullets up w ith the barrel. The P-90ish unit is on the shelf for right now (to much stuff to do) but the clip I made w as just a of rectangular tube that the case of the shell (minus case rim) fit into then another tube that the first could fit in, I cut the rear off of the tubes so they could fit inside each other then I spaced them apart so the rim of the .22 fit then I drilled and put in the pin in the end so It folds open for loading after the spring follower is pulled back and locked, (look at the drawing. One thing you see is the curved part on the end of the clip that part turns the shell to be inline with the barrel. But there is one thing that I couldn't draw effectively and that is the spring steel ends on the clip they keep the shells out of the turning section of the clip till it is inserted into the weapon there two metal rod push back the springs and allow the shells into the turning section and the weapn. A: pin B: Spring C: Spring Follower

Ammonal

December 9th, 2003, 05:58 PM

Thanks A-BOMB that looks so much easier than trying to backwards engineer a picture of a P90 magazine! I have a day off so I'll try making one today (i have a pile of RHS tubing which should be handy). One other thing w hat do you use for your magazine springs, do you use the normal music w ire DIY springs or have you got another method for them? I have just had the suggestion made to me by a good friend of mine to use clock spring that is the flat strips of spring steel and fold them into a long ?/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\| 'W' spring. I tried this and it worked extremely well in a 15 round .22 magazine. You just get your clock spring, heat it and let it cool, fold into shape (some smooth mouth pliers w ork well) and the retemper it by heating it to cherry red and dunking in oil, then sand a small section til it is shiny and reheat the spring to the straw colour and dunk it in oil again and it is ready for use. I have covered some old ground there about the tempering, but the information on the spring was just worth sharing.

A-BOMB

December 10th, 2003, 11:46 AM

I went out to my local DIY store and got some long springs ment as replacement for the long springs in the clips on a staple gun. If you got the time and equipment you can make a helical mag by taking to pieces of round tube one smaller than the other and cutting a sloped spiral slot into it (list a screw) and then cutting a piece of sheet metal into a spiral that can fit around the smaller pipe to line up with the slot then mig weld it in place. Then mill out a block that has a curve on the bottom to match the angle of the sheet steel now take a piece of round rod stock that fits inside of the smaller pipe and drill and tap a hole in it to fit a bolt inbetw een the curved block and the round block insided the smaller pipe, now take a long strongish spring and put in inside of the smaller pipe so it pushes the blocks up along the spiral shell ramp. Now put the w hole asembly into the larger pipe and seal off the one end with a end cap or something else that is removeable. Now is a much harder part you got to make the end shell ramp by cutting and welding together sheet steel, this is one alot harder then w hat I have now so I scrapped this idea, but if you want you could try it and see how it goes.

DimmuJesus

January 8th, 2004, 02:08 AM

By the time you have this finished, how much do you think it will have cost you total to build? This sounds like it may turn out to be quite a gun! If this works out, are you considering using a similar design for larger calibers? With the select-fire function, what do you anticipate the rate of fire being? And one final question, will this only take mags made for the AR-7?

Jacks Complete

January 8th, 2004, 02:50 PM

A-BOMB, I think you got B & C reversed on the mag diagram. How does the P-90 magazine feed the last round? It doesn't seem like it would w ork with the follower you have drawn, as there are no more rounds to push it beyond the mouth of the stack. Do you get rounds falling out when you take off a full mag? How do the two pins re-engage?

A-BOMB

January 8th, 2004, 06:21 PM

I didn't notice that simstake before, Well the mag in the draw ing is for my smg that I was making but right now the smg is shelfed, Now on to the clip the pins have sheet steel springs on them to put the pins back in place. I never finished the smg but right now , when you load a mag 3 rounds are inside the receiver(2 in the mag w ell and one in chamber) to keep mag in place the are 2 ball bearing locks they are in the chamber just enough to hold the 3 shell in and gravity draws them into them chamber. So if I put a full mag of 28 rounds in and i remove it w ithout firing I w ill have 25 round left in the clip.

U.S.M.C-Man

March 7th, 2004, 02:31 PM

This might help you with this (see link below). I think a scratch-built AR 7 scaled up to 9mm would be awsome. http://ww w.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s= 404b5fa503f0ffff;act=ST;f= 23;t=92 . - U.S.M.C-Man

A-BOMB

April 1st, 2004, 01:56 PM

As of now my AR-7 prototype is dead, I'll be w orking on a new model soon but my first is just a lost cause, Its going to the shelf of forever putoff projects and the SMG version maybe coming back from the dead. I found out that my prototype could not work reliably for any period of time before a case w ould rupture in the chamber, because of my design. So I am now working on a new type of action which I call a semi-bolt. The new design w ill use a hexagonal receiver, w hich will mate w ith my barrel better allowing for more accurcy(sp). The action utillizes a closed locking bolt, w here a bending bolt handle/dust cover folds forw ard and locks into the ejection port on the receiver after the bolt is released. Locking the bolt inplace till the bolt handle is gripped and pulled back unfolding the dust cover/bolt handle and unlocking the bolt from the receiver. Once the bolt is drawn to the end the empty case is ejected and hammer recocked. The bolt handle is released and the return spring rams the bolt forward putting another shell in the chamber and relocking the bolt unit inplace. I will be posting a diagram once I'm done drawing it to explain the princible.

Nico

April 6th, 2004, 01:54 PM

For those of you who have had trouble with 'genuine' AR-7's working properly, here is an article by someone who was able to w ork out the kinks: http:// w w w.alpharubicon.com/leo/ar7gm32.htm vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 05:21 PM

How to m a k e a c u s t o m m a d e s i l e n c e r f o r a R e m i n g t o n 7 1 0 M o d e l . 3 0 - 0 6 rifle?

A-BOMB

S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 05:28 PM

T h i s h a s b e e n d i s c u s e d s o m any tim e its not funny, you should of searched and you would of prob ably found what you were look ing for. And neve r post a topic on first post bye-bye.

Mr Cool

S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2003, 06:26 PM

http://www.boom s p e e d . c o m /m rcool/O h_god.jpg

nbk2000 Lyrics for the NBK rem ix of "Bullet in your head" by Rage against the Machine"

This tim e the bullet cold rocked ya A Nazi admin saluting the swastika Nothing proper about the ZOG propaganda k3wlz, read the rules when a mod comm a n d s y a The Forum stays blue when your blood is shed That's how you got a bullet blasted through your HED Blasted through your HED Blasted through your HED I give a shit about the now-be-HED Stood and watched as your account de-atomize d "BANNED!" on your screen You was m e s m e r i s e d Am e r i c a O n l i n e s o u n d i n ' a d e a t h t o n e Adm in's turned ya to stone before ya realised He loads the clip in "all colors" Said "they waste our tim e, I waste them in no tim e" H e ' s p a s s i n g g a s , h i s h o m e was like Alcatraz A n d m u t h a f u cker's lost his m ind Another victim of the in-house drive-by I say jum p, you'd best say how high Yeah Just a victim o f a n i n - h o u s e d r i v e - b y I say banned, you go bye-bye Run bitch! (Guitar solo) Just a victim of the in -house drive-by I say jum p, you'd best say how high Just victims of the in-house drive-by I say banned, they go bye-bye Check-a, check-a, check it out NBK loads the clip in "all color" Says "they waste our time, I waste them in no tim e " H e ' s p a s s i n g g a s , h i s h o m e was like Alcatraz A n d m u t h a f u cker's lost his m ind No k3wlz escape from Ned's ass-rape Play it again Mega and then rewind the tape And then play it again and again and again Until the fools m ind is locked in Believin' all the lies TO TSE's tellin' ya Buyin' all the stories that they're sellin' ya T h e y s a y " b o m b z " a n d ya say how |-|[email protected] Ya brain-dea d Ya gotta fuckin' bullet in ya HED Another victim of the in-house drive-by I say jum p, you'd best say how high Yeah Just a victim o f a n i n - h o u s e d r i v e - b y I say banned, they go bye-bye Uggh! Yeah! Yea! 2 weeks in line Passing the tim e

S e p t e m b e r 2 6th, 2003, 02:10 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Ya waited, to o b a d Ya gotta a bullet in ya HED

A bullet in ya HED (8 tim es, building to a shout) A bullet in ya HED (7 tim e s , s h o u t e d / s c r e a m e d ) Ya gotta bullet in ya fuckin' HED! Yeah! PUNK! (Sustained to end of drum roll)

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View Full Version : I need a receiver diagram! xmarinevet

October 25th, 2003, 12:24 AM

I was wondering if anyone could help in finding a receiver diagram for a sten sub. I've found like twenty that look like they were drawn by a twelve year old kid and the ones n the pmjb book series suck. I want something that I can print out and paste on a piece of tube, cut with a torch, drill holes, sand, and put on my parts kit. If any body has any links to any cheap homemade subguns that would be helpful too. I have the one by luty and metrel, I hope to atempt them soon. Thanks

irish

October 25th, 2003, 12:49 AM

Mod's, is it ok to post a link to a gunsmithing forum here ? I remember NBK going through someone for posting links to other forums.

xyz

October 25th, 2003, 02:19 AM

I beleive there are receiver diagrams for all kinds of pistols, rifles, and SMGs on the FTP. Irish, I think NBK was only doing that because they were advertising the other forum and their post was solely for that purpose. You should be OK posting a link for the purpose of spreading information.

Ammonal

October 25th, 2003, 06:36 AM

Hey xmarinevet, I had these plans on my hard drive, they look like it would be feasible to make a sten from them. I might one day but I got no 9mm ammo so... http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf

xyz

October 25th, 2003, 07:27 AM

IIRC even if you do have access to 9mm ammo (unlikely in Australia) there is a very slight difference between the 9mm ammo for pistols and the 9mm ammo for SMGs. Before anyone starts an argument, I know that pistols and subs both fire the 9mm parabellum round but I have heard on this forum that 9mm pistol ammo will cause jams in SMGs and I have also seen a handgun manufacturers website where there were specific safety instructions not to fire 9mm SMG ammo in that manufacturer's handguns. The only way that I can think of for you to get 9mm SMG ammo in Australia is for you to buy once fired SMG brass from the military or someone else, then reload the ammo yourself. I know that to buy 9mm ammo you have to have a license with a 9mm weapon recorded on it but do you need this for buying 9mm reloading components? You would need a license for buying the reloading components of course but I am not sure if you need a license with a 9mm recorded on it. You could always buy a rifle chambered for any small pistol round so that you can buy primers and powder, buy once fired brass, and cast your own bullets.

zaibatsu

October 25th, 2003, 07:36 AM

Check www.roderuscustom.tzo.com I think this is probably the group Irish is referring to, it's very good although I don't have enough time for it at the moment.

blacktalon

October 25th, 2003, 07:15 PM

I have heard people talking about SMG ammo a lot. The difference is the powder used. Long barreled SMG's can make better use of a slower burning powder. Pistols and short barreled SMG's need to have as much powder burned in a very short time however, so they require a faster burning powder. (duh) There is no real difference in jamming however. If you have a Jam-O-Matic like a Mac-10, it will jam with pistol or SMG ammo. Now to the origional topic. Why do you need precision blueprints for a Sten? It is a crude gun. Your precision blueprints would be about the only precision part of the firearm. They were made in bike shops during WWII. Most people make their Stens with a Dremal and they work fine. Why put the extra effort into it?

xyz

October 25th, 2003, 10:36 PM

blacktalon, yes, the SMG in question was a MAC-11:) So you should be alright with using 9mm pistol ammo in a sten then, especially if you were to shorten the barrel.

xmarinevet

October 25th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Yeah I have to agree stens are pretty crude but I have enough parts kits that I can make some serious dough if I can make some impressive guns. SMG's just arent the type of thing that you see around here everyday and I've had some pretty good offers made by some local yokals. If anybody knows any better recievers for cheap parts kits I would really appreciate it. I've heard an AK is about the simplest buy I cant find blueprints.

xyz

October 25th, 2003, 11:55 PM

There are several sets of AK blueprints on the FTP along with a detailed guide on assembling AK and RPK weapons.

xmarinevet

October 26th, 2003, 12:07 AM

I tried to get on the ftp but i put the wrong user number or something and told i was denied for lieing.

JDAM

October 26th, 2003, 01:02 AM

I hope that you are actually ignorant of the federal law against making machine guns without being a licensed manufacturer, even then anything made after 1986 is not legal for pvt ownership...Its not like us legal gun owners need people making it tougher to keep the feds and shit off our backs. It only takes one dumb MFer to open his trap or go flashing it and there it is on the news and in the paper with anti's spewing how we need confiscation and registration. Not to mention anything done illegally with said weapons would also make you involved in additional charges. JDAM

irish

October 26th, 2003, 01:53 AM

zaibatsu, that is the forum I was referring too they have some very good info on there. As for reloading components, in Australia you don't need a licence to buy them but some places may be a bit funny about selling powder and primers, there are no records kept for anything exept for gun's so you will be ok buying components or live ammo with or without a licence (if you can find somewhere that will sell to you without one) you will not go on record as having got a lot of 9mm ammo :) .

xyz

October 26th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Irish, from a what a friend wtih a firearm license tells me, you not only need to have a license for buying ammo, you also need to own a licensed weapon of that calibre (all the weapons you own are recorded on your license).

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter But I think that all you need to buy reloading components is a firearm license of any kind. But all this may only be for my state of course. If what you say is true about ammo without a license, you may be able to order your ammo online from somewhere else in the country.

xmarinevet

October 26th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Send me a money order and a list and I'll mail the ammo to you. Or the powder, primers, and lead. It must really suck living in a place with gun control that strict.

Ammonal

October 26th, 2003, 09:29 AM

In 7 days time there is a local sports store / gunshop that is closing. Because of this they have excellent discounts on ammo and reloading equipment and are not "in the mood" for asking lots of questions. I can see myself not running short on ammo in the short term if I jump at the opportunity ;)...

xyz

October 26th, 2003, 09:35 AM

xmarinevet, no thanks. Trying to post 9mm ammo or components to Australia is just asking for trouble. A form is needed for importing ammo or ANY components of it (be it primers, powder, cases, or projectiles, even airpellets) and you also have to seek approval from the firearms branch of the police. I am willing to bet 10Kg of RDX that the recipient of the ammo would have ASIO, customs, and the local cuntstabulary bashing their door down in a matter of days.

irish

October 26th, 2003, 05:28 PM

xyz, Sorry I didn't make it very clear what I was saying (big night saturday night :D , what your friend told you is correct but to buy ammo you only have to show them your licence to prove you have one they don't make any sort of record as to who bought what etc. They may not sell pistol ammo if you only have a A or B licence though some of them are a bit suss about that. Components you don't need a licence for, if you do reload go to a pistol range and get a bag of once fired 9mm shells (single flash hole only) they will cost next to nothing also get a good reloading manuel don't improvise with powder loads til you know what you are doing as far as pressure goes. You will be able to improvise everything exept for the powder measures (unless you weigh every load one at a time)

xyz

October 26th, 2003, 07:09 PM

irish, I am not the one who was wanting 9mm ammo anyway, I was suggesting ways of obtaining it to Ammonal. There is plenty of good reloading data available online at powder manufacturers websites. Go to www.adi-limited.com for loading data for ADI powders, which should be available almost everywhere is Australia. If you want to buy pistol ammo with an A or B license, just get a lever action cowboy rifle or a TC contender chambered for pistol calibres (you can have a contender with multiple barrels chambered for multiple pistol calibres).

Spartin13

October 26th, 2003, 07:36 PM

Hi please forgive me for asking this question (I'm new to this board and have tried to watch to learn) I was wondering what is FTP that has been refered to in this thread? Thank You

xyz

October 27th, 2003, 05:12 AM

The FTP is a service provided to some forum members that is now hosted by chemwarrior (it used to be hosted by Ctrl_C), where members can upload, share, and download books and information about explosives and weapons. There is a form to apply for an FTP account that can be filled out on the main roge science page, but you have to have been a member for a while and proven your worth before you will be granted access.

xmarinevet

October 28th, 2003, 02:51 AM

Thanks to everyone who contributed. The damn things do jam. I even half loading the magizine but after 5 or 6 shots it usually jammed. I say piss on it. Any body got any idea how to make one semi auto. If I can figure out how I guess I'll just sell the parts or make a bolt action or something. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Needin m79 blueprints! xmarinevet

> Needin m 79 blueprints! Log in

October 27th , 2003, 03:20 AM

Any body got any idea where to find blueprints for a m7 9. I'm considering it for a next project.

sammy

October 27th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 2 : 5 6 P M

you can purchace blueprints / schem atics of the m -79 40m m grenade lancher at http://www.e-gunparts.com /schem atics.asp hope this helps..........

xmarinevet

October 28th , 2003, 02:44 AM

Thanks but why buy what you can find for free. rodderscustom s has a section in their forum where you can freely download p df blue prints or what ever. I found som e 203 blue prints and I'm gonna see what I can do to im provise to m 79. I like the m 7 0 look whole lot better. Anybody interested in the finished prints let m e know. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : eMachineShop bipolar

S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2004, 10:54 PM

I found a pretty cool thing I thought a lot of yall might be interested in for improvised weapons. It's an online m a c h i n e s h o p with a very easy to use CAD program of its own. You just design anything and the y have C NC m achines of all types to do what ever you want. http://www.em a c h i n e s h o p . c o m You design it, it autom atically gives yo u a quote, you put in credit card info and it ships th e exact part you designed right to your door. I think it is kind of expensive though. But yo u could concievably get a whole machine gun built this way. Like one of Bill Bill holm es guns or you could use this for som e harder parts or whatever. You could probably easily get ar-15 m-16 receivers made this way. Just use the blueprints on biggerham m er.net I was putting in the upper receiver of the .22 m achine p istol but i decided that would be pretty easy to do m y s e l f , b e c a u s e I a m getting a m illing m a c h i n e s o o n . I t o o k p a r t o f a m a c h i n e s h o p c l a s s a t t h e l o c a l c o m m unity college. I a m t a k i n g a n Autodesk Inventor 6(which I h ave a copy of) co urse next week. On inventor you can actually set mechanical assem blies in m otion to test them out virtually and design in 3D.

ninja42

S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2004, 06:16 AM

You really think they will m ake any part of a firearm? I usually have a lot of trouble thinking of an inconspicuous use of parts that I let a m a c h i n e s h o p m a k e . A barrel or a framepa rt is easily disguised as an engine part but ham mers,grips and bolts are usually well known to an experienced machinist. I think parts aren't shipped worldwide. ninja.

nbk2000

S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2004, 06:22 PM

You could use it for som e t h i n g . Parts for a biological agent disperser? Nozzles for HV rockets? There's always som ething. :)

Jacks Complete

January 17th , 2005, 11:41 AM

J u s t a s a s m a l l u p d a t e . I d o w n l o a d e d t h e d e m o program , and it is a very neat little program for doing 3D CAD, and working out what type of processes, etc. you will need. However, the prices! $450 was about as low as I could g et for a sim ple steel "barrel" m achined from c h e a p m i l d s t e e l b a r , a n d turned down. It wasn't even funny. It was a large bore, and a short length (10cm ), so would have taken anyone with a lathe five minutes to bore and then another ten to polish. I g ave up at that point. I didn't waste m y tim e trying to see if there was a way to rifle the barrel. U nless it is going to be a m ajor investm ent, it seem s that the costs for a on e-off are too high, and the set-up charges are quite vast.

bipolar

January 18th , 2005, 11:29 AM

Yeah, I also noticed that the prices were outrageous. you'd definently be better off going to a local m achine shop or finding o n e o n l i n e a n d g e t t i n g to know the guy who works there or som e t h i n g . a n d j u s t u s e a n o n y m o u s e m ail,tracphone, or som eth ing to contact him and pay with cash or m oney order and don't tell him your real nam e. usually the m achine shop types at least in m y area are all gun owner, hunting types. I took part of a m achine shop class at the local com munity college and all of them were wearing cam o p a n t s a n d f r o m out in the country.

Jacks Complete

January 18th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 2 : 3 0 P M

Hehehe. Probably because they are the only people who have room for two lathes, a wood lathe, a m illing m a c h i n e , p e d a s t a l grinder and two welders, and then actu ally get in the room ! For the prices eMachine charge, I kid you not, you could buy a sm all lathe and use it for two parts. You would have saved a little m oney, and still have a good little lathe. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : My expedient smg xload

September 18th, 2004, 12:18 PM

I bought "expedient 9mm sumbachine gun" book by P.A Luty and I'm making this smg. My webpage is http://es.geocities.com/subfusil_asalto/ Please send me ideas or comments. thanks

tdog49

September 19th, 2004, 09:21 PM

I was wondering when you'd come back... I am really looking forward to pics and possibly a movie showing it firing when you finish the smg. till then good luck and keep us posted.

aikon

September 20th, 2004, 03:47 AM

Nice to see that you're back xload. I check your page regularly to see if there's any progress. Good Luck.

Trigger Mike

September 20th, 2004, 07:15 AM

Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck.

aikon

September 20th, 2004, 08:23 AM

To Trigger Mike: The book can be found on the FTP in the Weapon's folder. Its about 33MB.

xload

September 20th, 2004, 11:54 AM

I read a lof ot books about homemade weapons, but Luty books are really a homemade weapon, luty weapons are very easy to make. I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30 us) I'm making some parts to the bolt, beacuse it's the most important piece (with the barrel) and i'm making it carefully. I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised weapon.

MMIV

September 22nd, 2004, 05:05 AM

I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm, cuz the ammo in the Oz would b hard 2 get and attract attention cuz they r 4 handgun, which u need a license. On the other hand i thought of making cases from metal/brass rod in lathe.

tdog49

September 22nd, 2004, 11:38 AM

trigger, 1. You can also purchase the book here: http://www.paladin-press.com/ 2. And there is a .32/.380 version here: http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html 3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free. MMIV, 1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above. 2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW. Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)

xload

September 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM

trigger, 1. You can also purchase the book here: http://www.paladin-press.com/ 2. And there is a .32/.380 version here: http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/bookadvert.html 3. bonus! #2 link has plans for single shot silenced .22lr and single shot 12ga pistol for free. MMIV, 1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above. 2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW. Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not) Bill Homes weapons are very very difficult to make (you need a milling machine, a lathe, a lot of patient and time) P.A luty guns are really expedient guns. I live in spain (here it's ilegal buy or sell weapons or ammo) but i bought some army bullets (friends or firends of firneds ;)

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shadow2501

September 23rd, 2004, 05:34 AM

i agree with MMIV a .22 is more useful in many countries it's the only ammo that should be legally bought by thousands without attracting attention but isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels?

MMIV

September 23rd, 2004, 11:20 PM

isn't there instructions at the end of book for making other caliber barrels? yes there is but you would need to do modifications to the mag,spring and the the upper and lower receiver so they feed correctly. Which this is no probelms and this modification will make the smg more useful intead of being a paper weight.

THAT Dude

September 28th, 2004, 02:26 PM

If you want to by a barrel you should go to http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.htm They sell parts kits for many different guns(calibers) with good rifled barrels. I bot a sten gun parts kit to make into a blank fireing submachine gun. Then when it got to me I relised that I just mail ordered a rifled barrel no questions asked. :p It had never doned me be for how easy it is to order a chambered barrel. ;) (sten gun parts kit are no longer listed but you can still order them #64STEN ... $39.97) Hope this is of use to someone.

raptor1956

October 1st, 2004, 06:58 PM

I was thinking of making the smg in .22 instead of 9mm I agree with rounds being hard to get in Oz but they are about if you look. The problem with building Luty's weapon in .22 would be eliminating hang-ups with the .22LR case during feeding. Bill Holmes claims to have eliminated this with his bolt design, but then you are getting right away from Luty's concept for a truly homemade smg and starting to add lathe and milling proceedures to the project.

ozboy

August 3rd, 2006, 09:50 AM

If you have a cat B licence in OZ, you should probably look at making it to fire .38 special ammo. This shouldn't arouse suspision because there are leaver action rifles which fire .357 magnum / .38 special ammo. If you have a cat A, or no licence, consider yourself stuffed, or if you're not a prohibited person, go and get a cat B licence. Then you can buy as much ammo as you want, just tell them your going on a long hunting trip up north and need to stock up.

Jacks Complete

August 3rd, 2006, 10:40 AM

Sadly, the .38/.357 and .44 are/is a rimmed cartridge, same as the .22, so the feeding issues remain. This is why they are in use for U/L rifles, rather than semi.s. 9mm or .45 on the other hand might be available, either from military or police ranges.

ozboy

August 4th, 2006, 08:37 AM

Jacks Complete is right about the feeding problem issue, especially in full auto. You might be able to get away with it in a semi-auto. To add to the problem of trying to make P.A. Luttys desing into .22 rimfire, you would have to use a different (lighter) spring and breech block.

festergrump

August 4th, 2006, 10:02 AM

The only problem I can foresee with the problem of rimmed ammo for a full auto would be finding high capacity magazines, especially in the calibers mentioned above (and possibly extending the feed ramp to make it less obtuse of an angle?). The 7.62 X 54R is rimmed and was employed by the Ruskies in FA applications for quite some time, IIRC. If not FA, then definitely semi-auto, but not much difference when bump firing, something which has been done with rimmed rounds very often. Care still needed to be taken when loading these to ensure the rim of the top round was not behind that of the cartridge beneath it or a jam would be inevitable. Making your own mags could be troublesome to the DIYer, but not out of the question entirely. A much tighter radius would be needed for the mag, I think, giving it more of a 'banana' look in design. I'm seeing that the Ruger 10-22 FA conversion has been working well for many for a long time, and while it employs a funky rotary wheel at the top of the magazine it can easily be found in hicap models. Seems possible, at least. Joining of two or more magazines to increase ammo capacity via MIG or TIG welding is something that has often been accomplished in the past, too. Smooth insides and much longer custom spring are a must, but the original follower can be used. [EDIT: No longer speaking of Ruger 10-22 mags here... They're made of plastic. Many others arent, though. My whole point is that .22LR FA or other rimmed round FA is very do-able, you just need to think outside the box a little bit and not need to rely on following Mr. Luty's designs exactly. Modification and experimentation are devine... neccesity is the mother of invention, ect, ect... You can see examples of invention overcoming caliber obstacles in these three links (though sadly no examples of rimmed rounds): 1 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13385&highlight=9mm), 2 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/ showthread.php?t=13861), 3 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14401)] Just some thoughts...

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter ozboy

August 4th, 2006, 08:06 PM

Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other? The Bren .303 Mark IV Light Machine Gun uses .303. British rimed ammo, but I dont know how the ammo sits in the mag. (I'm assuming its stacked). Has anyone seen inside one of these mags?

They also use 100 round drum. This could be another option.

Dank$taVegas

August 5th, 2006, 09:48 PM

I will put at my webpage and roguesci ftp the test firing video beacuse i can't found any videos or pictures of this improvised weapon. Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any information on the build or your so called gun. :confused: Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to see & hear of your progress if any was made. Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans?

akinrog

August 6th, 2006, 04:33 PM

Well it's been more than a year and there seems to be no updates here, and the site posted doesn't seem to contain any information on the build or your so called gun. :confused: Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to see & hear of your progress if any was made. Has anyone on this site attempted or completed any of P A Luty's plans? I'm occassionally in contact with him. He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However AFAIK he is in the school busy. HTH.

Dank$taVegas

August 6th, 2006, 04:48 PM

He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However AFAIK he is in the school busy. Well that sucks for us here. Would have been nice to hear from him or anyone else about the details involved in building this gun, see some test fires/pictures and find out other information he would have to offer us here at the forums.

nbk2000

August 7th, 2006, 01:57 AM

Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91?

neo-crossbow

August 7th, 2006, 04:19 AM

Would the banana magazine work with the rounds stacked or would they have to be on top of each other?

Since your in Oz you can pick up 25 round butler creek clear plastic mags with steel lips from Cleaver Fire-arms at margate in qld for $60. They are for the 10/22 ruger. I mail ordered a couple and built a project to find that they are cheap as chips and feed .22lr cleanly into a blowback operated thingo.... I did find however that I had to move my ejector a little closer then in the plans I had seen to ensure propper ejection, but this could be because of the ejection port, placement of mag well, stroke of bolt or any other varying factor in my hand tool skills.

akinrog

August 7th, 2006, 05:32 AM

Wouldn't that be CETME, the spanish predecessor to the HK91? Yes it's CETME. He even sent me pictures, however I cannot dig out the picture from these several file stashes. He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and install it on the SMG. Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here.

ozboy

August 7th, 2006, 07:03 AM

Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow. Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?

Dank$taVegas

August 7th, 2006, 03:17 PM

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He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and install it on the SMG. If I remember correctly in some of P A Luty's books, he suggest that the reader purchases a barrel with rifling as an alternative to making your own out of steel tubing & steel collars. This would increase the accuracy of the SMG to a degree, and stop the tumbling of the bullet in flight making the gun design much better. But with a SMG slinging lead downrange, accuracy is not as important as a reliable gun tossing as much lead at the desired target as possible. This will definitely make up for the lack of accuracy in the long run. But when building a project like this, if you have access to purchase a barrel with rifling (which is fairly easy & cheap in most countries) or have the means to make your own barrel why not build the project to the best of your abilities, and improve upon the gun where it can be improved upon. The gun will be that much better. Actually I must contact him to encourage him to report here. That would be nice if he dropped in once in a while to spread some of his knowledge about the projects he has completed, it would be very beneficial to people here on the forums who may be interested in attempting a project like this, or just wanted to learn more about P A Luty's plans being put into action. But most of us know how time consuming school can be.

neo-crossbow

August 9th, 2006, 12:48 AM

Thanks for the tip neo-crossbow. Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all? As they aren't considered a part you need no liscence at all, nor will they ask for one. They also fit onto lever action rugers that are cat (a) anyway. BTW it would take a cat (c) semi auto rimfire to a cat (d) because of the capacity You will get them without any paper work, just give them a call and ask them what they would like for postage. Call: (07) 3883 1733 and tell them you are afer a butler creek clear 25 round 10/22 mag and they will know what your on about. good luck and hope to see the results oneday online

1petmonster

September 17th, 2006, 02:19 AM

If you have any shooters licence reguardless of state etc, you can purchase high capacity magazines in QLD without worry! They also have a large selection of Owen,Sten,Thommy etc on hand. Also Sterling M20 magazines work great on rocker, and if you had a Gevarm (befor you handed it in) they worked great on the select conversion.

Arisaka

September 25th, 2006, 07:15 PM

I only needed a lathe for a few pieces, beacuse i can't found some pieces in Spain and to make the barrel (I bought a blank rifled barrel in Ebay, arround $ 30

Ever thought of using a .22 air rifle barrel? These are legal to have in most if not all european countries.

inventorgp Inventorgp’s Magna Carta gun To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland); First of all: Category A weapons (1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not been rendered permanently inoperable— (a) a miniature cannon under 120cm in barrel length that is a black powder and muzzle loading cannon, depicting a scale model of an historical artillery piece or naval gun; (b) an air rifle; (c) a blank-fire firearm at least 75cm in length; (d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle); (e) a single or double barrel shotgun; (f) a powerhead. (2) A conversion unit is also a category A weapon. (3) In this section— conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being used for converting a category A weapon that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.

Category B weapons (1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not been rendered permanently inoperable— (a) a muzzle-loading firearm; (b) a single shot centre fire rifle; (c) a double barrel centre fire rifle; (d) a repeating centre fire rifle; (e) a break action shotgun and rifle combination. (2) A conversion unit is also a category B weapon. (3) In this section—

October 16th, 2006, 12:27 AM

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conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being used for converting a category B weapon that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre. Category C weapons Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not been rendered permanently inoperable— (a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity no greater than 10 rounds; (b) a semiautomatic shotgun with a magazine capacity no greater than 5 rounds; (c) a pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity no greater than 5 rounds. Category D weapons (1) Each of the following is a category D weapon— (a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for military purposes or a firearm that substantially duplicates a rifle of that type in design, function or appearance; (b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with either an integral or detachable magazine; (c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds and a pump action shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds; (d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds. (2) Subsection (1) applies to a weapon mentioned in the subsection even if the weapon is permanently inoperable. Category E weapons A bulletproof vest or protective body vest or body armour designed to prevent the penetration of small arms projectiles is a category E weapon. Category H weapons (1) A firearm, including an air pistol and a blank-fire firearm, under 75 cm in length, other than a powerhead, is a category H weapon, regardless of whether it has been rendered permanently inoperable. (2) A conversion unit is also a category H weapon. (3) This section does not apply to a powerhead or category C, D or R weapon. (4) In this section— “conversion unit” means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being used for converting a category H weapon that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre. Category H weapon classes For schedule 22 of the Act, each of the following comprises a class of category H weapon— (a) an air pistol; (b) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of not more than .38 inch or a black-powder pistol; (c) a centre-fire pistol with a calibre of more than .38 inch but not more than .45 inch; (d) a rim-fire pistol. Category M weapons Each of the following is a category M weapon— (a) any clothing, apparel, accessory or article designed to disguise any weapon or other cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing bodily harm; (b) any of the following that is primarily designed for the control of native or feral animals— (i) an antipersonnel gas of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any weapon capable of discharging the gas by any means; (ii) an antipersonnel substance of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any weapon capable of discharging the substance by any means; (c) any knife so designed or constructed so as to be used as a weapon that while the knife is held in 1 hand, the blade may be released by that hand; (d) any clothing, apparel, adornment or accessory designed for use as a weapon or a cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing bodily harm; (e) any incendiary or inflammable device containing any substance capable of causing bodily harm or damage to property that is primarily designed for vegetation management; (f) any pistol crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of 1 hand (that is not a toy pistol crossbow) that when discharged is capable of causing damage or injury to property or capable of causing bodily harm; (g) any crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of 2 hands that, when discharged, is capable of causing damage or injury to property or capable of causing bodily harm; (h) a chinese throwing iron that is a hard non-flexible plate having 3 or more radiating points with 1 or more sharp edges in the shape of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or geometric shape and constructed or designed to be thrown as a weapon;

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(i) a flail or similar device constructed and designed as a weapon consisting of in part a striking head and which, if used offensively against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm; (j) a device known as a ‘manrikiguisari’ or ‘kusari’, consisting of a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a geometrically shaped weight or handgrip and constructed or designed for use as a weapon; (k) a device known as a knuckleduster or any device made or adapted for use as a knuckleduster and which, if used offensively against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm; (l) a weighted glove designed or constructed to be used as a weapon; (m) a mace or any similar article (other than a ceremonial mace made for and used solely as a symbol of authority on ceremonial occasions); (n) any device, not a toy, constructed or designed as a telescopic baton, the extension of which is actuated by the operation of a mechanical trigger.

Category R weapons Each of the following is a category R weapon— (a) a machine gun or submachine gun that is fully automatic in its operation and actuated by energy developed when it is being fired or has multiple revolving barrels, and any replica or facsimile of a machine gun or submachine gun that is not a toy; (b) a unit or device that is capable of being used for converting any firearm to a weapon mentioned in paragraph (a); (c) a firearm capable of firing 50 calibre BMG cartridge ammunition; (d) an antipersonnel gas, and an antipersonnel substance, of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm, and any weapon capable of discharging the gas or substance by any means, other than a gas or substance and any weapon capable of discharging the gas or substance that is primarily designed for the control of native or feral animals; (e) an acoustical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of causing bodily harm; (f) an electrical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of causing bodily harm; (g) a hand grenade, other than an inert hand grenade, and an antipersonnel mine; (h) a silencer or other device or contrivance made or used, or capable of being used or intended to be used, for reducing the sound caused by discharging a firearm; (i) a rocket launcher, recoilless rifle, antitank rifle, a bazooka or a rocket propelled grenade type launcher; (j) a mortar, all artillery and any incendiary or inflammable device containing any substance capable of causing bodily harm or damage to property, other than an incendiary or inflammable device primarily designed for vegetation management. Restricted items (Act, s 67) The following items are restricted items for section 673 of the Act— (a) handcuffs, thumbcuffs or other similar restraints; (b) nunchaku or kung-fu sticks or any similar device which consists of 2 hard non-flexible sticks, clubs, pipes or rods connected by a length of rope, cord, wire or chain constructed or designed to be used in connection with the practice of a system of self-defence and which if used offensively against a person is or are capable of causing bodily harm; (c) a billy club, a baton or any device constructed or designed as a telescopic baton, not being a toy or a category M weapon, that if used is capable of causing bodily harm; (d) any studded glove which if used offensively against a person is capable of causing bodily harm. Firearms licence—category C rifle and category C shotgun for occupational rural purpose on rural land (1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or employment on rural land, has a need for 1 category C rifle or 1 category C shotgun, or both, for a rural purpose, may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category C rifle or 1 category C shotgun or both. (2) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or employment on rural land, has a need for more than 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun for a rural purpose, may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for more than 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun. (3) However, a person may apply under subsection (2) only if the need arises because of the area or location of the land involved. (4) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under subsection (1) or (2) only if the authorised officer is satisfied the applicant’s need for the firearm can not be satisfied in another way. (5) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the licensee to possess and use— (a) 1 category C rifle; or (b) 1 category C shotgun; or (c) 1 category C rifle and 1 category C shotgun;

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stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the licence. (6) For subsection (2), an authorised officer may endorse the licence with the number of category C rifles or shotguns the authorised officer decides is reasonably necessary to satisfy the applicant’s need. (7) A licence endorsed under subsection (2) authorises the licensee to possess and use the number of category C rifles and category C shotguns endorsed on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the licence. Firearms licence—1 category C weapon for occupational fisher (1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business as, or employment by, a commercial fisher, has a need on a particular vessel, for 1 category C weapon may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for the weapon. (2) An authorised officer may issue a licence endorsed under subsection (1) only if the authorised officer is satisfied the applicant’s need for the firearm can not be satisfied in another way. (3) A licence endorsed under subsection (1) authorises the licensee to possess and use the single category C weapon stated on the licence, but only to satisfy the need stated on the licence. (4) In this section— commercial fisher means the holder of a commercial fisher licence under the Fisheries Act 1994. Firearms licence—1 category D firearm for occupational culling of animals (1) A person who, in the conduct of the person’s business or employment (whether or not in primary production), has a need for a category D weapon to cull animals may apply for a firearms licence with an endorsement for 1 category D weapon. (2) The licence authorises the licensee to possess and use 1 category D weapon, but only to satisfy the need stated on the licence. (3) The licence must state the area where the weapon may be used.

Second of all; How to obtain a Licence The following steps will guide you through the process; Rifle Licence Category A & B • Step 1. You will need a genuine reason to obtain a Category A & B Firearms Licence. If you become a Member of S.S.A.A. you can then list your genuine reason as Sports & Target Shooting and Recreation & Hunting, as we are an approved body prescribed under the law. Anyone who is already a member can help you or contact your local S.S.A.A. Branch. • Step 2. Contact your nearest S.S.A.A. Branch Safety Course Instructor, and book in for a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Course. (The State Office can also assist you to contact a S.S.A.A. Safety Course Instructor in your area.) All S.S.A.A. (QLD) Inc. Instructors have attained the Certificate 4 in Workplace Training and Assessment. As it takes time for your Membership Card to arrive, and you need proof of Membership of an Association to apply for a license, we suggest you Join Now. • Step 3. When you have completed your Safety Course we will post to you a 'Statement of Attainment' this is your proof that you have successfully completed the Safety Course. A copy of this will be needed when you apply for your licence. While you are waiting for this to arrive go to your nearest photo shop and have 2 passport size photos taken, as these will have to be supplied with your application. • Step 4. When you have everything you need go to the Police Station nearest you and ask for an 'Application for a License' Form 1 and a 'Proof of Identity' Form 30, or download them from the Queensland Police Service Website. Fill these in and pay the fees, the police station will then send them to Weapons Licensing Branch where they will be processed. Have patience, as they will only be processed after 28 days. • Step 5. When your licence arrives, you can then decide which firearm best suits your needs. Different types (we call them Disciplines) of shooting require different types of firearms, so try all the Disciplines that your Branch has, then decide on the firearm you want - don't make a hasty decision. When you have decided what you need, visit or call Your Gun Shop.

Handgun Licence Category H • Step 1. Obtaining a handgun licence is different to the steps you need to get a rifle licence. Just being a member of S.S.A.A. is not enough, you need to be a member of a 'Pistol Section' of a S.S.A.A. Branch, or an 'Approved Club', most S.S.A.A. Branches have a pistol section. To join this 'Approved Club' you have to go to the Police Station and ask for a 'Pre Approval' application form, Form Q515. You fill this in and lodge it at the Police Station. Weapons Licensing Branch will process the form and send you back a letter authorising you to join a Club.

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• Step 2. When the letter comes back, you can then join the Pistol Section of a Branch. The Branch will advise you on what is required to join. You are now on probation for 6 months. During that time you have to attend a minimum of 3 Branch Competition Shoots, these shoots will be recorded on your Participation Record Card that the Branch will issue you when you join. At any time within the 6 months you can do a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Pistol Course, then when your 6 months are up you can apply for your licence. • Step 3. After you have sent your application form in, it will be processed after 28 days. So have patience. • Step 4. Enjoy your sport.

And lastly - my say: Cat C licence is dumb because: 1 You are only allowed one semi auto rifle if you are a farmer of fisher. 2 Most rimfire semi automatic rifles are chambered in .22S,L,LR. 3 You do not usually use a .22LR for anything larger than a fox. 4 A fisherman with a semi auto with 10 rounds of .22LR versus multiple pirates with 9mm sub machine guns. Cat D licence is dumb because: 1 If you are culling different animals you need different calibres. Cat R notes: 1 There is nothing about flash hiders 2 Nothing of electro-mechanical weapons or motorised/hand cranked machine guns. I have experimented with a trigger mechanism one of Luty's designs. If I get time I'll upload a picture. .22LR's are a good idea because 525 rounds of Federal are Au$25-30. @ Neo Neo I'd think it would be a bit risky buying a mag. And do they have a web site or email? This is the largest post I've wrote!!

BeerWolf

October 16th, 2006, 01:32 AM

Inventorgp s M a g n a Carta gu n To all the so called gun licence experts (in Queensland); WOW! I think that list just shouts out to me, "get the heck OUT of this country!" Move somewhere that the gov't allows you at least a pointy stick to defend yourself.

inventorgp

October 16th, 2006, 02:24 AM

“Impressive… Very impressive.” -Darth Vader BeerWolf I agree. Well I live on acreage so I can make a bit of noise. Oh and do forget sound suppressors (silencer).

ap_gruffud

October 16th, 2006, 05:03 AM

Those licencing laws are a load of crap - Australia's (rifle) licence system goes: A: Blank firing guns, Pellet guns, paintball guns, Air rifles, break action shotguns and non self-loading rimfire rifles B: Single shot centerfire rifles, Muzzleloading arms, Combination guns, Double Rifles C: Non self-loading centerfire rifles D: Pump/Auto shotguns with magazine capacity no greater than 5, semi-automatic rifles with magazine capacity no greater than 20 R: Inoperable Fully-automatic display arms RPI (Remote primary industries): Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, fully automatic rifles/submachine guns with magazine capacity no greater than 30, arms chambered for .50 BMG, .55 BOYS or 10.5 Soviet and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like that are strictly illegal.

nbk2000

October 16th, 2006, 07:04 AM

and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions {sic} on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like that are strictly illegal. This is where good grammar is so important. Does this mean what it implies...that there are NO restrictions on body armour, meaning that anyone can own it? Or did you mean to say that there are no restrictions on body armour because it's in the same class as inert grenades (which are strictly illegal), thus unownable by anyone?

Hobbit Porn

October 17th, 2006, 03:27 AM

With regards to Qld/Australian laws, I read through the previous couple of posts, but didn't see any mention of paintball guns

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at all. Are they considered to be air-rifles or fall into one of the other categories? It was my understanding that you needed to hold some sort of firearms license to own one. Is this correct or is it just a very common misconception?

inventorgp

October 17th, 2006, 06:31 AM

You cannot own body armour, bomb suites, NBC masks, gasmasks etc. So if the government turns on its people... As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has to be a bolt action sniper only. And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about lever action? Hmm... A bikey gang on the Gold Coast had full auto Glock 18 (model?), Uzi's, and M72 LAW's. And if you want a fifty cal - .510 DTC Europ, if the cops let you have one.

What lame is that our next door neighbour, New Zealand is lucky they can have semi auto military style rifles, snipers, and also gun turrets of warships. Although I'm not sure how hard it is to obtain a licence.

ap_gruffud

October 19th, 2006, 09:15 AM

Sorry if my licencing stuff is a bit out - I was regurgitating what I've been reading of an old poster in my local cop shop for quite a few years now. As for body armor - a standard kevlar-ceramic vest is available for anyone who can prove thier job involves a risk of high speed projectiles of any kind - I could buy one with a rural firefighters ticket. And lastly - my dad had two inert grenades confiscated at the range when the police members showed up. So - I apoligise for seeming offensive - I was just following longstanding beliefs. ps: usually when I say 50 cal I mean 50BMG. ++++++++++ I added the punctuation marks to the end of your sentences for you. You know, the . ! ? marks that show that you are done with a sentence? Be sure to use some in the future. Oh, and paragraph breaks...and spellcheck. ;) NBK

inventorgp

October 22nd, 2006, 03:56 AM

What??? Confiscated inert grenades? They can’t do that - they’re inert. Well it depending on what state you live in. Check this site out: Collectors Armoury (http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au) Yes, usually - if not most of the time .50 cal means .50BMG. About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one. If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG and a rifle.

I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired?

inventorgp

October 22nd, 2006, 06:13 AM

I found this site: Not expedient, but anyway... CNC Gunsmithing (http://www.cncgunsmithing.com) You can download some schematics from this site.

neo-crossbow

November 16th, 2006, 02:36 AM

About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one. If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG and a rifle.

I wonder if "used" (date) bullet proof jackets can be acquired? If you want barrels then go to Margate and see tony cleaver at cleaver firearms. If your after magazines then go to shooters warehouse in ashmore (gold coast) and anyone there can help you. If your on the coast, you can pick up level II vests, cash no questions asked if you know where, and who to ask. Pm me

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November 17th, 2006, 04:57 PM

The .22LR is pretty anemic round even .22WMR while better isn't great, you might be better buying 9mm in component form (which is legal) some bullet presses can be had for a fairly low cost. The only alternative I see is to engineer for a truly a rapid rate of fire like the A( or Am)-180 but that requires machining not really in accordance with expedient design. On a side note Mr Metral in his book "Do-It-Yourself Submachine Gun" suggests two groove rifling is sufficient accuracy for a sub-machine gun. Early big game rifles used two grooves with a belted bullet and were deemed accurate enough for that kind of dangerous work.

ozboy

November 28th, 2006, 06:47 AM

As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has to be a bolt action sniper only. And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about lever action? Hmm... In answer to your questions, BOTH are cat A!:D

mike-hunt

December 9th, 2007, 07:39 AM

I am considering building a 22 machine pistol from a John Holmes book . I apparently most of the parts are designed to not look like gun parts . My plan was to have the parts requiring lathe or mill work made professionally at several different machine shops with the story that they are one off pieces from an old machine or for prototype of my own design what ever lye fits the peace . Maybe getting several of each part machined at once . I am interested in hearing from anyone who has completed any of J Holmes guns . Heres a utube link of his 22 machine pistol being fired

neetje

December 25th, 2007, 04:13 PM

Is there any chance of being able to scan the book and make it availlable for download?Is it on the FTP already?I'd be interested in reading it and following your project to see how it turns out,xload.Good luck. It has already been scanned, along with all his other books that went for sale. here's the link: http://rapidshare.com/files/22780652/Wpnarch3LUTY.rar.html I hope you enjoy them. I have other ebooks as well, including Holmes' books, but I'll upload those later because my hard drive is a bit disorganized atm...

Killy

December 26th, 2007, 01:07 PM

Heh, everybody is talking about planning to build some SMG stuff like Lutys, or Holmes (including me), they request books, but actually we are starving of info (pics, descriptions) from ones who managed to build the SMG or at least any part of it...

neetje

December 29th, 2007, 06:20 AM

I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online...

Charlie Workman

January 4th, 2008, 03:54 AM

I think the problem is that they are pretty illegal to build in many countries. I've already ordered the parts for mine, but I'm not sure if I'm going to put some pictures or video's of it online... I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who show their faces.

Charles Owlen Picket

January 4th, 2008, 10:14 AM

I love the people who post this stuff... +1 This is really an important issue... If you enjoy this forum and the discussions herein, don't EVER throw stuff up that endangers it. Please use your fucking head when dealing with energetics, firearms, or even pranks. The discussions of "how it may be done" is vastly different than "look at this". To spell it out very clearly, a drawing is different than a picture of a metallic item. A picture of some crystalline substance is different than a explosion and your car or whatever in the background. A mathematical model is different than a blown up mailbox, etc, etc. We are talking about self preservation. I'm not getting on anyone's back, so don't get all defensive - just treat the last two posts like you would signs at a shooting range. If you think about it, this forum is on the edge of censorship and has already been attacked by iDefense to the extent of loosing it's ISP. Please use common sense. :rolleyes: I understand that the longer one participates in these discussions, the more "comfortable" one gets in the general discussion. But every once in awhile pretend that you are talking through a bullhorn to the public on the street. :eek:

neetje

January 4th, 2008, 01:08 PM

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I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who show their faces. That polish guy Focusofdarkness on youtube has removed every one of his vids. I think that's better for him, but worse for us since his design was a perfect open bolt SMG. He even showed how he made his munitions by using a hilti nail gun cartridge... :cool: btw, in some countries there's no problem in building your own firearms. MOST countries are so afraid of armed civilians they ban everything resembling a gun just to give the IMPRESSION of safety on the streets. I capitalize that word because criminals aren't bound by law so they can't be disarmed... I know that in my country I can't even buy an Airsoft, wich didn't stop me from having an airsoft resembling a M4 carbine :D Even worse, I bought it in America and went on a flight back home with the thing in my backpack... :eek:

megalomania

January 6th, 2008, 03:41 PM

There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met. Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable.

Man Down Under

January 6th, 2008, 05:19 PM

Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos? As regards legality, if I was a cop and looking for an easy bust, I'd go for the Youtuber's showing their faces, and get Youtube! to give me the IP and get the ISP to give me the user. No warrant needed either. :) Doesn't matter if there's ever a conviction. Simply arresting them and letting them go through the hell of the court system is almost certain to get a guilty plea, rather than risk the absurd sentences a 'bomb' charge would get them, after showing the video 'this dangerous psychopath made to glorify himself on the Internet' to the jury. :p

neetje

January 6th, 2008, 05:40 PM

There are also legal ways of actually detonating explosives and building/firing exotic weapons. Many things that are illegal to most citizens are perfectly legal once the necessary forms are filled out, licenses obtained, and safety requirements met. Pictures and videos of legal activity are perfectly acceptable. I'm wondering... Do you live in America? Because I live in the Netherlands and I'm not allowed to build my own guns or own them. The only legal way would be for me to obtain a gun smithing license, which would cost me 5 years in education. And then I would have to be hired by someone already manufacturing them since my government has chosen not to expand it's gun production ability (which means they won't give you a license for starting your own gun company)...

BlackFalcoN

January 6th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Surely someone here must have saved those Youtube! videos?

You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any video player that supports FLV files. If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.

Man Down Under

January 6th, 2008, 08:00 PM

One thing I figured out was saving videos from shockwave'd sites. Use a downloader to get the SWF file. Rename from .SWF to .TXT. Open it, search for '.flv', and copy the filepath into your browser after the top-level name of the site where the video is located. Voila! :)

Killy

January 14th, 2008, 02:48 PM

Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found. It is from page http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/ that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever) The interesting thing is authors description and modifications : "This book by P. A. Luty published by Paladin Press available from Amazon will explain in great detail how to make your own 9mm submachine gun with common off the shelf parts in the privacy of your own home." "I was able to build the gun in about 60 hours with only some basic hand tools, and the only power tool was a handheld drill. A drill press and angle grinder would make it easier and go faster but at the time I did not have such things. Many parts described in the book I could not find anywhere. Parts that I could not find include the wag well, 3 inch roll pin, barrel, barrel sleeve, steel collars of the right size. I have worked out many of the problems and this page should help you on your build." "For the barrel I used a pre-owned UZI barrel purchased from www.auctionarms.com for half the price of a chamber reamer. This barrel is 10 inches lo ng, one inch lo nger tha n the tube called for in the bo ok but d on t cut it shorter. The barrel co m e s chambered and rifled making it more accurate and is a huge time saver. It needs a sleeve to fit into the steel collars. The sleeve has the dimensions of 0.75" x 0.035" x 0.68" and will slide onto the UZI barrel with ease but not sloppy. It is a tap tight fit into the 3/4 inch collars. The set screws on the collars hold it in place against the barrel."

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"Close up of sleeve on barrel in collars. I could not find collars with the right outer diameter, only ones with a smaller 1.25 OD. These will not fit into the upper receiver. To fix the problem buy a 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" tube and cut it up and put it over the collars to get the right size. It might be a little too large and need to be filed down where it makes contact with the upper receiver to fit in." "For the breech block I used 0.625" x 0.12" x 0.39" and 0.75" x 0.065" x 0.62 tubes for the center of it. The inside tube is too large and needs to be filed down all around to slide inside the larger one. JB weld is used to secure them together along with the tight fit. Over this goes the steel collars and over those go the 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" slices also held on strong by JB weld."

"I could not find the 3 inch roll pin called for in the book. I used a 0.5" x 0.095" x 0.31" tube cut with 2 hacksaw blades on one saw and opened up with files to cut the slot for the ejector. In the center went a round steel rod held in with JB weld and two roll pins." "The Firing pin is part of a drill bit shank; it was too long at first and was ground down and at an angle to keep from getting caught on the end of the cartridge. It too is glued in with JB weld." "At the end of the upper receiver is the recoil shield and guide rod. The guide rod is made from a thick metal coat hanger stuck into a steel round with that inside of a collar and that collar inside of the large collar used in the rest of the weapon. This is JB welded together. The end cover is made from scrap left over from making the lower receiver."

Killy

January 14th, 2008, 03:00 PM

Part 2. "The recoil spring is poorly made. I could not make the spring winding device described in the book. Instead I wrapped the wire around a long thin screw driver with one end clamped down and the wire held on with vice-grips. It does cycle with weapon but will need to be replaced along with the guide rod at some point." "Trigger is cut and filed from scrap left over from lower receiver." "Sear is made the same as it is in the book, but mine would bind on the side of the upper receiver to fix this I used some nuts to keep it strait." "The Magazine is made from a tube that is about the size of the magazine well described in the book and is a tight fit into the lower receiver. The lips were bent in a vise and tapped with a hammer." "Lips let cartridge protrude enough to allow breach block to catch it." "I finished the lower receiver with the oil and torch method from the book, it works very well, wipe down the parts that can rust with oil. Many of the parts are made with stainless steel or aluminum, these parts I painted with a semi flat black spray paint. If your breach b lock doe sn t line up quite right with yo ur chambe r file the parts of th e block that mak e contact with the receiver walls to point it in the right direction. Silicone spray does a fantastic job of making the breach block and magazine operate smoothly if you are having friction problems." "I enjoyed building this weapon, though at times it was frustrating and time consuming. It will go faster and your results will be better if you have better tools, drill press, grinders, welder, and of course some skill with the tools. Don't be discouraged if your parts don't look as nice as the ones in the book, isn't easy to shape everything just right but if you make everything line up on yours it should work. I have only fired one shot from this, and it worked. At some point I will be able to do a full test fire and will update this site when that happens. I expect to be able to do that this summer."

Picture of his artwork : http://i6.tinypic.com/8f4yuqx.jpg

iHME

January 15th, 2008, 12:33 PM

It's a shame that his site is down :( It is suprisingly rare to see a luty smg made real, considering its simple machanism and need for only some regular hand tools. If one wants to make a real one that would be legal in most parts of the world one could just make it fire 8mm or 9mmPA blanks. Also, if the barrel is plugged and ported it would not fire anything. Around here one can buy blank firing replicas and ammo for them without license. But theres a catch, the barrel must be plugged and the gases from the blanks have to be vented in some other direction then to the front of the gun. One thing that could hinder American builders is the (or so I'm led to belive) that BATF considers the reciver to be the gun, so even if the gun only fires blanks and the barrel is plugged it is considered a fully automatic short barreled carbine/smg. If you drill or some other way take the cap of the barrel it is considered as manufacture of illeagal weapon, after that the gun is from legal point of view the same with any normal weapon loaded with blanks. As long as the cap stays in the barrel the gun is considered to bee something similar to a childs capgun. One of the technical problems in building the luty smg to fire 8mm blanks is the fact that the blanks don't feed well even in their real counterparts, give that you would use a weapon that allready has problems potential with feeding (luty smg). The blanks feed reasonably well from a pistol magazine, but from a curved or rectangular smg magazine they don't feed well. It is said that the blanks ressemble the wadcutter rounds in their feeding. Also in Lutys book "Improvised HANDGUN ammunition" he uses 8mm blansk for primers in proces of making the ammo, so if you make a live fire and need to improvise the ammunition one could already have the blanks. Some pictures for added information: A fullauto mp5k blankfirerer,mark the strange magazine: http://dekoase.com/page/pics/blowmp52.jpg 8mm blanks: http://dekoase.com/page/pics/8mmpamf.jpg

neetje

January 15th, 2008, 04:16 PM

If you get yourself a reloading press you might get the cases tapered, solving a lot of feeding problems.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I'm currently trying to fix something for a .32 acp, build on Luty's design. Not very powerful, but using the right springs and the right size breech block, this can be a bit easier than one might imagine... I used to reload ammo, using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution. I haven't tried this before, so I'm just making suggestions. I wonder if anyone has already tried this...

Ubermensch

January 15th, 2008, 06:03 PM

You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any video player that supports FLV files. If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.

Hey, use Cache View to find it in your cache, it makes Firefox cache file extraction 100 times easier, and assuming you don't have it wiped everyitme you close your browser, it may still be there. http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~timj/cv/

neetje

January 27th, 2008, 05:22 PM

I found 2 of the video's back in my realplayer download folder. Here are the links: http://rapidshare.com/files/87122667/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_1.flv.html http://rapidshare.com/files/87123195/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_4_8mm_ammo.flv.html I think these are useful vids: - the first shows a reasonably detailed part of his gun - in the second he shows how you make ammo by using yellow (medium powered) hilti 6,8/18 mm blanks (.27 long)

iHME

February 1st, 2008, 01:36 PM

using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution. This reminds me of my idea about making a simple reloading press and necking 8mm or 9mm blanks down to .22 or .177 so that i could use air rifle barrels. Once again some youtube links: Basic construction of a improvised pistol that necks 9mm blanks down to .177: http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3OVDSycsx8 The maker shooting his creation, at the start you can see him inserting a .177 pellet in to the tip of the blank: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbj4UPBrV64

Killy

February 1st, 2008, 10:49 PM

I think he is using 5.5 mm air rifle part, since he is shooting steel bb-s. (or maybe 4.5 is he using, but 5.5 would be better to use, since its bigger/stronger) One type of modification would be that you take normal blank firing revolver, cut the barrel and weld that 5.5mm air rifle barrel, or drill through/remove the barrel and insert air rifle barrel (or some barrel to fire normal ammo even, thats one possible modification for blank fireing revolvers to become useful) But, beside that, I think that posts about modified blank firing ammo, or ramset "ammo" dont belong to this homemade SMG thread, and should be moved to Rameset or some similar or maybe even new thread for improvised firearm ammo only (this is not a bad idea). Neetje, what are you fixing for .32, what you have in mind ?

neetje

February 2nd, 2008, 03:57 PM

I was thinking about an open-bolt smg, by luty's design (exp firearms vol. 2) with a twin stack magazine. Since I do not have a lot of tools, I might make it even more simplistic than Luty's, because watching the youtube vids have given me several ideas: - Luty uses shaft lock collars (bolt and barrel). I can't seem to find them, so I'll drill a hole in a aluminum block, fit in my barrel and maybe file it a bit for ease of feeding. This block will be fitted in a U-profile tube. - No guidance rod. My bolt will be a steel rod, drilled out in front. In this hole I will fit my firing pin. Using 2 pins I wil let the bolt slide. - No barrel rifling. I don't have a lathe, rifling machine or whatever you need to make these. Where I live you can only order a gun barrel if you own a gun, so this is not an option for me. I have bought a 14x3mm seamless tube, which I will use as a barrel. I will be using hilti cartridges (.27 short or long, whatever suits me best) as primer and propellant for my 8mm bullet (.32 acp can be a possibility, using .27 short). :cool: The gun itself will be made mostly from aluminum tubing and aluminum blocks, except for the bolt, sear and, of course, the barrel. These parts need to be strong, because they will get heavy blows and lots of pressure. If I'm forgetting anything, please tell me :rolleyes:

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Killy

February 5th, 2008, 01:57 PM

I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type. Second, try to find as more "genuine" parts from Lutys design, like collars, and pipe sizes. I was fucking amazed when I found some company who had in their catalogue all sizes that I need, it even had 3 sizes I can choose for barrel and barrel sleeve, and all would do the job (that werent Luty sizes like 15.88, but "round" sizes in mm like 18 x 4.5mm, which would be maybe even better than his sizes) I was particulary happy with that barrel size, since it is pretty heavy, and with sleeve probably wouldnt make problems like exploading. Other "alternate" barrel sizes were 16x3.5mm and 15x3mm. The last size is maybe not the best option, since in that case barrel sleeve would have bigger walls than barrel itself. But to my great dissapointment, when I called and asked about it, I found out that they have none of my needs ! (why they promote it in a catalogue, I dont know, bastards) I was so pissed, but Its like that in life, if you want something, you will never get it easy way ( and tubing sizes listed in that catalogue were way too easy!) I continue my search, and thus, modifications of tube sizes, primary needed by tubes available. Same suggestions to you, dont try to find exact tubes, find some that will be near his sizes, and could be easy assembled and put together inside one another. The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine. Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel. Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube. For 9mm Luger caliber,magazine size of 35x15x2 mm is the best possible option, since in this rounds will fit nicely. Sizes like 35x20 or bigger could maybe be good ( then magazine would be more like two stacked), but that needs more tubing size adjustment in magazine well and so. Sizes bigger than 35x2 mm (height of 9mm round is about 30mm) would be fucked up, (like 40x20x2mm tube) just like idea of "bolding" the magazine walls with additional metal strips glued inside so that the inside space is not 36 x 16 mm (rounds in this "mag" size wouldnt fit loose). But, who knows, maybe in some desperation I end up with that size & type mag. Making your own parts like collars out of aluminum block is good idea, or that could be made from steel block with height of 14-20 mm.Of course it should be very precise, so it could fit in tube, and barrels could fit in it.

iHME

February 5th, 2008, 03:24 PM

That sounds like a good idea. I have been thinking about getting some of the needed materials for the luty smg from my local hardware store, they seem to have some of the needed tube sizes. Though I'll try to finnish my other project some time this month. It is a bolt action .22lr pistol made form, ehh, bolts. I have designed it to be adaptable to some other calibers but without real locking lugs highpresure round are a big no-no. All I need is just steel pipe with 20mm id (the bolts used are 20mm diameter. But now back to the subject when I get some more money I'l get some materials from the hardware store for the luty smg and a shotgun project. My time and motivation are not unlimited and I also do have to concentrate on my studies.

neetje

February 6th, 2008, 12:46 PM

I suggest first you try more to find real 9mm ammo, and not mess with this ramset improvised type. Mate, I can't get it legally. The trick to making your own firearms is using whatever you have, or are able to get. I can buy all the tubes, no problem, the ammo I can't. So I'll have to improvise that too. It's no problem for me to buy the nail gun blanks, so it's a good alternative. I've already tested the blanks I'm going to use, they are more powerful than a .22lr. The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine. Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel. Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.

I don't agree with the shaft lock collars. He uses this to fasten his barrel, give the bolt the needed weight and to make the recoil shield. These can all be replaced with other things. The barrel can be fastened using an aluminum block with a hole in it, the recoil shield can be made the same way and the bolt can be made heavy with a steel rod and round tubing in which this rod will fit. It's just like Luty says in all his books, this is an example of building your own improvised smg with a limited amount of tools. His designs are not the only way of making a smg.

kaiserbill

February 7th, 2008, 09:46 AM

I too have started looking around for the materials for a Luty SMG. As a lot of you gentlemen state above, I'm having difficulty locating some of the specified tubes. I certainly am struggling to find SHT or SMT with a 9mm inside diameter. It looks as if I will have to look at a different approach to the barrel, perhaps machined. As for the magazine, I'm playing with the idea of making up a Sten - type mag, the construction method of which is described nicely by Bill Holmes in his SMG book. The reason for this is that I'm struggling to find the correct tube type once more, and

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seeing as I'm probably going to have to modify the project already, I might as well carry on. I do not want to make too many changes though, as I'm afraid that this will complicate the project unneccessarily. But, as neetje said above, There are ways and reasons to modify the original Luty design. This thread would be a fantastic topic or repository for ideas relating to help or modifications to the basic Luty design. All purely theoretical of course.......

Killy

February 7th, 2008, 03:13 PM

Neetje, most stuff here on this forum is not legal, so dont whine if you cant legally buy ammo, I cant either, but you can try to find somebody who can buy for you, or buy from him. This improvised ammo is hardcore to the fullest, but since you dont know ballistics from that nail gun "ammo",and quality of it, combine that with non rifled barrel, to my opinion you would get something more lika a toy than a real lethal weapon, it would shoot "something", but on what range would it be useful or lethal nobody knows. Kaiserbill you should search, and, just like I said, modify the plans to fit things you could found. Too many changes arent bad, if everything works as planned, at the end. That sten type mag, in which book from Bill Holmes is that mentioned, and could you describe it shortly ? This topic will hopefully one day be place you can read about real Luty SMG somebody made, not just theoretical masturbation around his books.If my memory serves me well, something like that is said on mainpage, here we want real knowledge, not hypothetical geek shit. Some more pics of somebody trying to make .380 SMG, this is everything I found: No additional pics, no more info about materials, procedure etc. http://i32.tinypic.com/116n8yh.jpg http://i28.tinypic.com/3310eac.jpg http://i32.tinypic.com/246kqit.jpg http://i32.tinypic.com/2qm15ya.jpg

neetje

February 7th, 2008, 09:15 PM

Killy, I understand your point, but the way I see, it is like this: I indeed know people who can buy me some 9mm ammo. But if they (or me) get caught, they lose their licenses, and I hate to have that on me. If I (for self-defense or whatever) decide to use the gun against someone, they will be guilty too. However, I have a reasonable amount of time, about enough tubing to build 8 smgs, and I like working in my garage. When I started thinking about building this gun I was already thinking of trail and error, and spending a reasonable amount of time in fine tuning the gun. :rolleyes: The blanks are nowhere near 9mm ammo ballistics, so if I use spring, bolt etc from luty's design and just downgrade the spring strength and bolt weight in steps, I will get it to work ;) Anyways, this will be my project for the next couple of weeks. When it's finished, I'll make a couple of pics/vids so everybody can see. btw, the pics: Nice lower receiver, but I wonder where the rest of the gun is :D

kaiserbill

February 8th, 2008, 08:10 AM

Nice pictures Killy. I'm going away for the week-end, but I'll give a description of the sten type mag when I return on Monday. I have most of Luty's books as well as a couple from Bill Holmes. My original intention was to build the basic Luty design quite closely. Then move through his designs: For example 9mm MP Mk1, Mk2, and 9mm BSP, with design improvements progressively built in. I'd like to end off with the Holmes 9mm MP, but we are talking a timeline over a few years. My family and work commitments ensure this.

iHME

February 9th, 2008, 03:34 PM

Did some sopping at the hardware store today. Bought some of the pipes need to make the luty smg reciver, I left out the parts for magwell as I'm not sure what caliber I'll be making it. A image says more than thousand words (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/? action=view¤t=IMG_5394_.jpg) I also started making my boltaction pistol, whem I get more done I'll make a separate thread for it. I'll also try to write up some plans for the pistol. I made some basic drawings on my laptop before starting the project, unfortunately it is a very old laptop, it does not have a usb or netconnection. So I can only show you a picture of the pipe thats going to be the reciver. Pic (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view¤t=IMG_5398.jpg) Oh also one thing, the pipes cost me 8,57eur and I cut them to length with the shops bandsaw.

DiablerieBane

February 18th, 2008, 02:15 AM

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Ive bought a book thats almost identical. Its built for 9mm luger rounds. And requires a metal lathe and a machining machine.. Whatever one calls it. I have neither, so I've been contacting machine shops to machine the parts for mine. If you are all interested in such things, paladin press is a brilliant publisher. Ive also got a book on combat knife throwing. The books are cheap, so they've got my recommendation as well as xloads, Im sure

kaiserbill

February 21st, 2008, 10:04 AM

Sorry Killy, been very busy at work. I haven't forgotten the description of the magazine for you. I'll get that sorted out shortly. DiablerieBane, what is the title of that book of yours?

Killy

February 21st, 2008, 08:30 PM

Ive seen the procedure, but only shortly, I havent researched it, if you want to write something about it, some general things so that we get the picture in short words. Ive tried "bolding" the 40x20 pipe to create space for 9mm round, but the results arent good. DiablerieBane, do you think we are retarded ?

DiablerieBane

February 23rd, 2008, 06:22 PM

Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun. All drawings are to scale and ready to be taken to the shop. Its really cool because it compares in almost everyway to an uzi, as far as firing rate, muzzle velocity and magazine capacity goes.

iHME

February 24th, 2008, 10:38 AM

Its called A Do It Yourself SubMachine Gun Who wrote it (Gerard Metral?) and even better, it looks that you have it. So could you upload it if it's a e-book or scan it if it is a traditional book. It would greatly help people understand you if they saw the same than you.

Killy

February 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM

I never saw that book from that Gerard, and Im sceptic if it is real homemade stuff, or you have to own machines like lathe, like from B.Holmes books. Compared to Uzi and stuff like that means nothing if you cant made it at home.

iHME

February 24th, 2008, 04:50 PM

What I have read (at amazon you could browse some pages of the book) says that it needs machining. The designer said that his goal was to create a smg comparable to mp5 and uzi. Those two need precision work so it is not that surprising that it would need machining. Of course nearly all machining can be made by hand tools, it is all about it if you can file some piece of metal for a year. Bill Holmes said that he made one of his smgs without real machines, as his shop had just burned to ground. I would not personally waste my time filing, I'd rather make my own machines from scratch and waste my time on it.

kaiserbill

February 25th, 2008, 10:40 AM

So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it....

akinrog

February 28th, 2008, 05:58 AM

So, is it the Gerard Metral book? Be nice to have a peek at it.... It's been floating around on P2P networks and I remember even seeing it on FTP.

Charlie Workman

February 29th, 2008, 01:59 AM

It is a machined weapon, but he has some parts simplified for easier production. He's a Swiss army officer and wanted something comparable to what he was used to using. A good book, but not something to be built using hacksaws and files.

iHME

February 29th, 2008, 01:22 PM

So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book.

a3990918

February 29th, 2008, 06:26 PM

So would some one upload it to rapidshare, mihd or megaupload? I realy would like to read that book. My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan and upload for the forum...

mike-hunt

March 1st, 2008, 11:58 AM

I am interested in herring from any one who owns a deactivated assault riffle especially in Australia . How is the barrel blocked ? Can a short peace be salvaged ? And are the magazines altered in any way ? I am interested as this could be a possible souse of parts for constructing a S.M.G from Lutty or Bill Holme's plans.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter iHME

March 1st, 2008, 12:45 PM

Around here the rifles bolt's face must bee milled to less then 75% of the original thus making it impossible to fire. In some countries it is only needed to cast a lead slug in to the barrel. But considering australias strict gun-laws it is propably welded shut as it is here.

a3990918

March 7th, 2008, 04:55 PM

My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan and upload for the forum... It's going to be a while before I get another scanner,:mad: but on the good side, I found a scan had already been posted on the FTP.:) I copied and uploaded to RS for those who don't have FTP access. It's a poor quality scan :(but I think you can glean enough info from it to determine if you want to progress with the build(this is one of the more complicated DIY SMG builds I've seen). Hopefully by the time you decide to build or not I'll have a better scan available...

Do it Yourself Submachine Gun by Gerald Metral http://rapidshare.com/files/97648225/diy_SUB.rar.html 8.1mb pass. roguesci.org

iHME

March 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM

Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you newer know if it is a Q or a O.

a3990918

March 9th, 2008, 11:21 PM

Thank you. Damn I HATE the new rapidshare captcha it just blows my mind. They just love to put the animals so that you newer know if it is a Q or a O. No problem. If you ever come across some of those Gingery books, on my list in the request section, I would appreciate your letting me know. I think RapidShit does that just to infuriate:mad: you enough to buy a Premium account.

Killy

March 10th, 2008, 01:23 AM

Thanx for the book, indeed its a very bad scan, and some pages are so blurred (on purpose ?) that you cannont read it, I dont know why are you so enthusiastic with the book, since this book will be for 99% of people only good study, and nothing near build. I suggest sticking to Luty plans (more plans I see like Holmes or this Metrals, more I think of Lutys like real genious), and first building his creations, and than maybe try to modify it to be more advanced. As Luty said "Im often sent design improvements by would-be gun designers", seems like there are lot of "wise" guys that didnt build a gun and wont, but have always bunch of ideas in their pocket, probably about everything in life. Im working on it for few months, by now just testing some stuff, and acquiring materials, it goes slowly, but eventually I know, something would turn up.

a3990918

March 10th, 2008, 03:53 AM

Yes, Luty's designs are by far the easiest and simplest to construct but they serve a different purpose than do the Holmes and Metral designs. Luty's SMG is designed to be made quickly and cheaply with a minimal amount of tooling, parts and/or ability/ knowledge. While this makes for fast production it also equates to a less reliable/durable firearm. Also, since this design is more or less handmade, parts interchangability would be almost nil.(Not to mention that you would need to manufacture several magazines for each weapon) You could always take the time to hold tolerences close but then you would be defeating the purpose of an expedient SMG. Conversely, Holmes & Metral's weapons are of a more complicated design, costlier, not as quick to produce and require some machine tools and knowledge to manufacture. However they do make use of off the shelf mags: The Metral and both of Holmes 9mm Sub-guns use Sten mags while Holmes .22 machine pistol uses a universal mag for the Thompson .22 guns. Using basic machine tools equipped with a DRO or better yet CNC capability, a high degree of repeatability can be acheived thus giving greater parts interchange between weapons.

iHME

March 10th, 2008, 04:14 AM

Thats completely true, the Luty smg is a expedient smg for people to fight "tyranny". The Metral and Holmes are more for organized manufacturing. I'm still thinking about adopting a luty smg for sten or suomi mags some day. Sten for high availability, Suomi for high capacity doesn't the idea about a 70 round drum mag is just plain awesome. Also you could use suomi stick mags also. And a3990918, I'll look around if I can acquire some of the publications on your list.

ChippedHammer

March 10th, 2008, 05:08 AM

Thinking about making a Luty, most likely will modify it to chamber .22LR as its cheap as chips - not to mention that fact that I could fashion a drum mag with a stupidly high capacity. Its officially on my list of things to do :)

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter neetje

March 10th, 2008, 08:08 AM

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;)

a3990918

March 10th, 2008, 08:50 AM

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about making a Luty smg on .22lr, but I'm wondering if anybody has already build one. I want to know how they made their magazines. .22lr is a rimmed cartridge, so it's nearly impossible to make a straight magazine. I'd like to see how somebody improvised that ;) A lot of people have talked about it, but I haven't seen anybody yet who has backed up their words. As far as the mag, I would think an off the shelf piece would be the way to go, unless you want a really low cap mag.:(

neetje

March 10th, 2008, 06:16 PM

thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm. I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime). I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:

a3990918

March 10th, 2008, 07:29 PM

thx for the info. I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. technically it would be called a 8x40mm. I 'accidentally' found out a way to improvise a primer. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I saw a vid on metacafe where somebody made a contact explosive using match heads as explosive and a cap and a nail as primer. I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime). I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool: There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40 feet . These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit. I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and design criteria.

neetje

March 10th, 2008, 08:07 PM

There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40 feet . These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit. I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and design criteria. I found an online toy store which sells to Holland (where I live). They don't sell to other countries, I guess because they are essentially explosives packed in a little pack. I remember I used to put them under my shoes and try to set them one roll at a time using friction :D They cost about €3,- for a pack of 20 rolls of 8 or 12 cap rolls. It's not the ball shooter you are talking about, but more the blank fire type (red caps). And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg ;)

a3990918

March 10th, 2008, 10:05 PM

Hey guys, Guess what I found?? Yes, a drastically better copy of Me'tral's book.:D Enjoy http://rapidshare.com/files/98583841/DIY_SUB_2.rar.html 5.43mb Pass: ROGUESCI.ORG

And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg

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Nothing like a little "Artistic Licence" to spice things up.:p

Killy

March 11th, 2008, 11:52 AM

a399018, well this version is worth of better look, interesting, its smaller than the fucked up one. 7.62x39 would be like fuckin assault rifle ! Making something like that in Luty style would be insane, since Ive never seen assault rifle with open bolt conception and open bolt with 7.62x39 cartridges ! Some kind of single shot rifle maybe, but automatic homemade rifle in that caliber, impossible for making in home.

iHME

March 11th, 2008, 12:25 PM

7.62x39 would need a very heavy bolt and a sickening spring and it might still blow up. Smg's should use pistol rounds. On the home gunsmith forums was a thread about design a assault rifle that could be made in a typical garage. It was never finished, they ware unable to decide the locking mechanism the only one that got close was a rotating bolt (too hard for average Joe) and retarding blowback (too unreliable). If some one wants I'll post a link to the thread(s). But let me remind you NO RIFLE CARTRIDGE WITH NORMAL BLOWBACK IT WILL JUST BLOW UP! Blowback is not even suitable for hot pistol loads, unless the gun is designed solely for the particular cartridge.

neetje

March 11th, 2008, 02:48 PM

That it is a somewhat more dangerous gun to operate, I agree. But I'm not saying it's impossible. It has been done before. Just look at the M60 or the M1918 BAR: M60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun) M1918 BAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle) Both are open-bolt machine guns chambered for powerful bullets. No they are not Luty style, but for more power you need more experience in building this and I guess a little bit more powerful construction materials (seamless tubing for receiver instead of the welded tubing, for instance) I don't think it's impossible to build something similar using a SKS/SVD barrel or similar. In fact, I think this is what we should be doing, improvising assault weapons/high powered rifles ;) That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us :D If I were to emigrate to America or Switzerland or whatever, I would try to make an assault rifle like the M60, chambered in the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. :rolleyes: Overpowered is what I like :cool:

iHME

March 11th, 2008, 06:28 PM

But ain't the M60 gas-operated? It is true that they both fire from open bolt, but this does not make them blowback operated. There has existed a rather heavy caliber blowback weapon, a mater of fact it was more a machine cannon then a traditional rifle, it vas made as a anti-aircraft weapon. It used some strange type of ammunition and a overly long chamber, so that the cartridge could be mowing backward but would still be supported by the chamber walls. There is a modern caliber of this type made. It never really kicked of an if I recall correctly had something to do with the H&K G11 rifle (I might remember wrong). I'll post a link to the weapon and cartridge ASAP, if I find the link or site anymore.

neetje

March 11th, 2008, 06:43 PM

that's true. That's why I said it's not a luty style gun ;) But if I'm not mistaken the barrel of a SVD (for example) has the extra piping needed above it already in place when bought. So if you are able to buy it, it should be possible to improvise an assault weapon ;) btw, the H&K G11, wasn't that the experimental caseless ammo assault rifle?

a3990918

March 11th, 2008, 08:30 PM

I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:(

shrub

March 12th, 2008, 04:51 AM

I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same? Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22

neetje

March 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM

I didn't realize my comment about the 7.62x39 Luty gun would be taken so seriously. It was an inside joke for another member.:rolleyes: Sorry for stirring up the contraversy. If I were seriously considering an upgrade on the Luty would scale up for .45acp. The .357 Sig or .40 S&W would be worth looking at, but ammo prices perclude this...:( Well even though it was a joke, trying to make one for real would be quite an accomplishment. .45 acp would be my logical upscale choice. I've fired both 9mm and .45 and I like them both. I've never fired the .357 sig and the .40 S&W, so I'm not going to comment on those :D

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same? The fact that you're asking tells me you've not read them both, or were asleep while reading them. They are not the same, even though they are similar open-bolt type smg's. Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22 You can try Bil Holmes' "Home Workshop Guns for Defense and Resistance - Volume 3 - The .22 Machine Pistol". It can be found on rapidshare and on the FTP. This requires a workshop to build!!! Changing a Luty into a .22lr machine gun you would have to change: - the bolt size and weight - spring strength - barrel size - magazine and magazine well So just about every functional part of the gun. It's not as simple as it looks ;)

Killy

March 12th, 2008, 01:55 PM

Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!? M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ??? Homemade assault rifle ??? "That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it. SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ??? .45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working. Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts. Shrub, you should read EHF Vol.I 9mm SMG, its similar to .32 (and vice-versa). There isnt a book for .22, but to build that, SMG size like .32/.380 could be OK, and modifications should be made in barrel, magazine and probably firing pin

neetje

March 12th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Neetje, what are you talking about, homemade M 60 or BAR ?!? M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ??? Homemade assault rifle ??? "That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ??? .45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working. Killy I was trying to make a point. I wasn't talking about creating it, I was just saying it's possible if you have the right experience (which I don't have, sorry to say ;) ). I know neither one of BAR or the M60 uses russian ammo, and I know the M60 is used for suppressive fire instead of actual assaults, but it started with somebody talking about SKS barrels, 7.62x39 ammo, and open bolt smgs. The M60 is an open bolt machinegun that uses rifle ammo and the SVD rifle is one of my favorites, so I brought it up. And smgs in .40 S&W, .45 ACP or in 357 SIG are possible, the cartridges are reasonably small (compared to rifle ammo), just check out this pic: 9mm/7,62/357sig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:9mm_7%2C62mm_357sig_10mm_45SW_45GAP_50AE_002 .jpg) As you can see, the .357 SIG and .40S&W aren't much bigger then a 9mm parabellum and are still considered pistol cartridges.

a3990918

March 12th, 2008, 07:43 PM

M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ??? Homemade assault rifle ??? "That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it. SMG in .40 or .357 caliber ??? .45 caliber ? Good luck with that, but we wont see that build and working.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.

Dang Killy, No disrespect but what put the burr in your butt?? This forum is FOR "philosphic thoughts" and such. Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification This section is for discussion about building or modifying commercial firearms, firearm repair, full-auto conversion, and resources for DIY gunsmiths. Please note: "Discussion About" not "Bragging,Showing Off or Stating" what you have built. As for me, that is all you will get, is my discussion and hypotheticals. I do not look forward to a mandatory prison sentence:mad: because I was stupid enough to get on here and brag about building illegal firearms and/or the production of explosives. If people only discussed things that they had actually done, then there would be a significant reduction in the number of posts.:( The banter back and forth between members will lead to new ideas in improvised gunsmithing. Most original thought is the result of a persons dreams or fantasies brought to fruition. If you are building something such as this you should listen and partake in the discussions, perhaps you will glean some insight on your own projects from someone else's "Bench Smithing". And why not post a link to the H&K G11? This thread is discussing a blow-back operated, open bolt weapon, which according to IMHE is what the G11 is. Studing this weapon might lead to new ideas and improvements in Luty's design or even the production of an entirely new style of improvised weapon. How's this for a hypothetical improvision on the Luty design. Suppose in what ever part of the world somebody lives, that factory load rounds or brass for the .45ACP are unavailable or hard to procure. Possibly .308 blanks are not covered under the law. Obtain some blank brass, cut it down and make something akin to low pressure .44 Auto Mag? Could be scaled back to the performance of a .45 or slightly better, be made on the kitchen table, bandoliers of .308 blanks are cheap and readily available, this is a rim-less round so feeding and mag. construction should not be a problem. Any ideas??

iHME

March 13th, 2008, 09:06 AM

Finally found the site. The cartridge is a experimental rifle cartridge 2030, not the G11 caseless as I stated at my last post. The cartridge (http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html) was experimental and never fielded. But I personally believe that it will some day in the future be the cartridge of choice for militaries and law enforcement world wide. But by all means lets get back to discussing the idea about a smg. We can make a separate thread for the assault rifle. Also even if .357 SIG and .40 are smaller than 9mm, they are considerably more hotter in terms of the load, they also have a more powerful recoil. Even if .45 is physically larger than 9mm it is lower pressure and thus it could be actually safer and easier to make a improvised smg in .45 than 9mm. The .45 of cource costs more than 9mm and is bigger. So the capacity of the small easily built single stack mags would be even more reduced. And wasn't the "minute man smg" made in .45?

a3990918

March 15th, 2008, 06:48 PM

I'm currently building the Luty smg with an improvised cartridge. Anyone ever though about using a cap from cap guns? I think this can be used effectively as improvised ammo (maybe using a couple of caps to prime):cool: Saw this link in a post in the BP section. Thought it might work as a way to expedite your cartridge production.:) http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FRTC1000

neetje

March 16th, 2008, 04:49 PM

I think that proves my idea of using toy caps as primers :)

Killy

June 30th, 2008, 01:54 AM

Anyone has/or could find more info on this ? http://yarchive.net/gun/homemade_smg.html Video of that documentary/scene with gun testing would be very useful, folks on this forum from UK/Ireland/Ulster could maybe know more about that documentary or get it.

kaiserbill

June 30th, 2008, 10:25 AM

Hi Killy I too have been interested in the various "home" or "shop" made SMG's used by both sides in Northern Ireland over the years. There is very little information on the various models made. I do know that the IRA manufactured straight copies of the Sten. I have seen pictures of them, and they look identical to the British "factory" model. I'm not sure whether the barrels were rifled or not. As for the Avenger and other esoteric models, I have been looking for a while myself. Anybody else got any info?

iHME

July 7th, 2008, 05:22 PM

If some one would be able to get even pictures or rough drawings of those Irish smg's it would be interesting to look at. But now a question.

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Should I make a Luty mk1 or Luty mk2 smg lower first. I'm still looking for 30x30 square pipe with 2,0mm wall thickness in my area. But as I have two 300mm lengths of 30x30 pipe with 1,5mm wall thickness I have decided to make lowers for both the luty mk1 and mk2. And when I can get the 2,0mm pipe I can make the uppers too. I have been thinking about making them in either 8mm or 9mm blanks. The 8mm ones are cheaper, but with the 9mm ones I might be able to use the same bolt for blank and real cartridges. And if I make, port and plug the barrel in a correct way it should be completely legal here. And if I'm going to use blanks I'd have to make a reloading press style press with a crimping die to make the blanks feed properly. Any way it is time to reread both Lutys books on the mk1 and mk2.

kaiserbill

July 8th, 2008, 05:06 AM

Hi iHME I am probably at a similar stage to you. I have gathered some of the basic materiels and have sourced almost all the rest. I think it is important to do this as I've found that if you are not in the UK as P Luty is, you will most likely find that not all the exact tube sizes are available. An example of this is in my country. I legally own a 9mm pistol, so ammunition is no problem. However, there are no SMT/SHT tubes with the correct 9mm bore available here. I have access to a friend who runs an engineering shop who will bore and polish a suitable barrel out of steel for me though, so I'm lucky in that regard. I should be able to commence with my build in about a month or so, time permitting. I have only basic tools in my garage, but do have access to a small lathe and then obviously my engineer friend has all the equipment needed. I would prefer to use him only when absolutely essential though. I intend building Lutys' 9mm Machine Pistol with the magazine body made from a single piece of rectangular tubing. I intend following the design as faithfully as possible as part of my learning process. Any major modifications or improvements will be limited to a possible follow on construction. Good luck on your project, and please let me know how you are progressing.

iHME

July 8th, 2008, 09:26 AM

I'm currently trying to force my self to finally make a pistol of my own design before the luty smg. Why? Well with the .22lr and the style of the design there is practically zero possibility of explosive failure. It also permits me to experiment with barrels and suppressors in a wery easy manner. If design the firing pin correctly I should be able to convert it from .22lr to 6.8 HILTI by simply changing the barrel. Down sides are that it would be a pain in the ass to reload in a hurry. As a clue I'll say that it includes 16mm bolts and nuts with 21,3mm pipe with 16mm id. :rolleyes: I'll make a separate thread for the pistol of mine when I finnish the first prototype. On the luty smg, I'll make the mk1 lower first and later the mk2 lower. I don't have a friend with a lathe, so I have to make with the tools I have and that I can make or improvise. Thank god that I have a angle and a bench grinder along with my semi-improvised drill press.

jolly_roger187

August 24th, 2008, 08:10 PM

To my recollection, Phill Luty designed his first firearm in '97-'98 -The infamous 'Expedient Homemade Firearms, The 9mm Submachine gun'. In which he paid dearly for. We all agree? Right, now after more than 10 years of his 'fictional' crude contraptions, along with various books, diagrams and so-called blueprints, how many of us have actually seen a fully functioning article- of any of his devices? Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade. A classic example of theory being just that- Nothing more. I could add lots of pictures of the 380/.32 EHF Vol.2 parts that I have made and assembled, and also list the reasons of why in practice, that this gun would not functio n but I d rather you find out for yourselves. Following this, is a link to a British site where you can acquire most of the material for this build. http://www.hublebas.co.uk/ I would like someone to prove me wrong I really would, but after so much time and effort I have put into his work, just too may modifications would have to be made, rendering his work merely a blank canvas!

kaiserbill

August 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM

Here is an update of my project. I've just started the 9mm Luty machine pistol vol 3. I was intending to use a steering shaft for my barrel. A friend donated one to me, and a second friend who owns an engineering concern was going to bore it out for me. Unfortunately, the shaft has not proved suitable due to it already having a bore of slightly larger than 9mm diameter. I only found this out once it was in my posession and after a little cutting. I have now resorted to sawing a piece of a defective air rifle barrel off and will hand this over to be bored and polished to the correct 9mm diameter. The barrel outside diameter is 15mm and is therefor identical to the tubing Mr Luty used. I have access to a lathe at night, so on Friday night I will machine the bolt from roundstock. I will have help on this as I've never worked as a metalworker or machinest. I'm hoping my little project will educate me a little more in this field. I've found that not all the tubing in my country is identical to that in the book, but I intend to match them as closely as possible and adjust where necessary. I hope to post some pictures in the next week or 2.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter neetje

August 29th, 2008, 07:39 AM

Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade. You're wrong, somebody has already made it. Check this post from killy: Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found. It is from page http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/ that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever) Although the link is dead now, it did show a complete build of the luty smg. The author remarked he hadn't fired it in full auto, but had fired several single shots with it. I hope the link comes up once again, but I doubt it. I can look up some of the pictures that were on the site, but I'd have to check my old computer. Send me a pm if you want these pics ;)

kaiserbill

August 29th, 2008, 09:18 AM

Correct neetje. I remember that site when it was up. Jolly-roger, have you considered that the type of person making a Luty machine pistol is most likely going to be living in a country where ownership of those types of weapon is frowned upon? Otherwise, he would just go out and buy a factory produced SMG. Therefore it stands to reason that it is hardly likely that people would advertise a complete weapon... I must admit I'm still debating whether to post any pictures of my project once I finish it. This of course is not to deny that there will most likely have to be a fair amount of modification and "hand-fitting" of any completed project. This I always expected. I'm also finding that different countries have different tube sizes, so a fair amount of improvisation will have to be done even before the first hole is drilled. I will most likely find it necessary to modify quite a bit during my construction.... I have now all Luty's plans, Bill Holmes 3 machine pistol plans, as well as Metrals' design. I believe that solutions can be found to any submachine gun design, given the fact that an SMG is quite a basic weapon....

iHME

August 29th, 2008, 12:34 PM

Be sure to post the pic's. Just say that while you ware searching info on home built smg's you stumbled upon this site...blah...blah. Or something similar. My Luty project is on hold. I simply don't have enough time for it. And I'm concentrating my efforts in .22lr ones, safer and cheaper. First single shot pistol then single shot bolt action pistol, semi-auto compact smg eating 10/22 mags and looking similar to Holmes .22 smg. The main idea is to make them so easy to make that no machining is required. Why? I don't have anything fancier than a angle grinder and a table grinder.

Setharier

October 19th, 2008, 06:42 PM

Hi people, I didn't want to make new thread since we're discussing about smg's anyway. I have been offered deactivated UZI smg which I think I could be able to reactivate. I am still to ask how it has been destroyed. Most likely there is metal plug in the barrel and the bolt has been destroyed, but the parts in general are all moving. Does anybody know more of deactivated guns like this and how feasible they are to reactivate with post drill, welding machine and a sanding/grinding machine? I wouldnt't like to purchase it only to see it has been fully cut apart due to high price(nearly 2 grands).

festergrump

October 19th, 2008, 09:02 PM

For $2000 you could do SO much better. I'd pass on that deal with no more info about it, to be completely honest. Is it a blank firer? I'm not savvy to UZ1s in general, but in most other demilled, non-firing replicas they use a plastic or aluminum receiver and a totally non-funtioning bolt. (it's just outwardly appearing to be cosmetically correct. Besides the barrel drilling, if needed or at all possible, you'd be in need of many more hard to obtain parts to make it function at all, IMHO. If the barrel is plugged somehow, they pretty much make sure it's beyond repair in those cases. Drilling the weld or plug could mess it up entirely if welded from the breech, especially. If in the case of a blank-firing replica made from original parts, however, you may just need a new barrel, but I cannot swear to that, to be completely honest with you. Might try some people who have a serious love for Israeli weapons, though. Try http://www.uzitalk.com for a better grasp on your prospective purchase... Link to the ad or seller would maybe help, too.

Setharier

October 20th, 2008, 07:23 AM

The UZI is real 9mill, not a replica. Blank firers use to blow up after couple of shots. The salesman answered it has been deactivated by drilling the bolt head to disable the striker and a pin drilled and welded through the chamber. Completely disassemblable, no other parts welded nor stolen. And trust me, at the site there's no any info about the gun, just a pic from the left side and a price tag - secondly, the language would be something nobody really understands :cool: The pin through chamber worries me most. It can somehwat easily be reinforced by drilling a bit from the sides and welding a couple of mills but there still might be danger of blowing or ripping apart the chamber when firing. The pin is made of

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hardened steel but you say it, tungsten carbide drills, even diamond drills can be bought from hardware store. For 2 grands, if I just dare to ask you, how could one obtain compact durable genral calibre full-auto? In europe one can not just purchase a working semi-auto gun and saw it pieces and turn to full-auto. :rolleyes:

kaiserbill

October 20th, 2008, 10:36 AM

Setharier, there have been different methods to de-activate firearms used. Certainly in the UK, the de-activation process has been made much more stringent in the last 15 years or so. Generally speaking, firearms de-activated before this period/new legislation have proved to be relatively easier to re-activate, and therefor command much higher prices. Perhaps your Uzi is one of these, although "2 grand" seems a very steep asking price! Many of the Yardie gangster hits have been carried out by such weapons. This is in the UK though, so I'm not too sure how it is in the rest of Europe.

Killy

October 23rd, 2008, 09:10 PM

Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread) I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http:// img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) Well, here we have 3 creations, the left one looks even like its one of Luty designs ("smg vol.3"), the right is fitted with some kind of silencer, and in the center even looks like something not home-made. Antoher pic. I found, Its another home-made smg that mi5 acquired investigating on North Ireland loyalist groups in 1995 : http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9086/mi51995uvffa2.th.gif (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php? image=mi51995uvffa2.gif)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) Its a small and bad picture, but grip looks like from revolver ! It would be higly appreciated if we have anybody on forum thats from Ireland and have some more info on subject.

sbovisjb1

October 23rd, 2008, 09:49 PM

@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it?

Killy

October 24th, 2008, 08:25 PM

@Killy: You mentioned you had started this project, how far are you into it? Gears still turning, time will tell :)

sbovisjb1

October 24th, 2008, 09:28 PM

How far? Do you have any pictures of the progress?

somtec

October 25th, 2008, 03:26 PM

Hi Killy If you are interested in homemade weapons used in N. Ireland then I can recommend getting a copy of Small Arms Review March 2007. Its got 10 pages of info and many photos of improvised guns used including the avenger smg, mainly made by loyalist forces as the IRA had more funding and better contacts.

Aborted Fetus

October 31st, 2008, 08:01 PM

Searching for any info on "Avenger" sub-machine gun (for info scroll few pages back on thread) I found this, its a picture of few "terrorists" from North Ireland, which maybe show that smg: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http:// img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

The SMG in the center is a Danish Madsen M-50 http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg60-e.htm

Killy

November 2nd, 2008, 10:35 PM

Good eye Fetus, its really Madsen. (note : pictures are pretty big) It seems like his lefty and righty lads have notorious "Avenger" (manufactured about 10 years ago) finaly got info on them from good friend : http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7771/avengerqx7.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php? image=avengerqx7.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7518/avenger2io7.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?

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image=avenger2io7.jpg)http://img219.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) 30 years ago, this rectangular design was popular : Here is video, unfortunately not of machine gun in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBQxKQo2cE http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8314/avengswernr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php? image=avengswernr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) Pretty heavy barrel on these square section smg. Since no bolts are visible on side of barrel shroud end, I guess the barrel is pinned in place by welding or soldering. http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4205/rectangularsidecf8.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php? image=rectangularsidecf8.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Another design, this is made from round tubing, first one with magazine on side, second has magazine under : http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/round1jf7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php? image=round1jf7.jpg)http://img221.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8739/round2pr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php? image=round2pr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book "improvised weapons of american underground", another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984) called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.

Bugger

November 3rd, 2008, 12:37 AM

(cut)Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book "improvised weapons of american underground", another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984) called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better. http://fileshunt.com/?q=minuteman , second-to-last item on page - links to a rapidshare download.

kaiserbill

November 3rd, 2008, 04:30 AM

Excellent work sourcing those pictures Killy. As is apparent, the SMG can be quite a basic weapon, whilst the magazines seem always to be sourced from existing designs. I have just read your PM, but I've been busy with work commitments and a work related trip, but I hope to inform of my progress so far, which has not been as much as I hoped. Perhaps the Christmas holidays will provide some of the time I need... Good work on those drawings Killy. I think it's the first time the Avenger SMG has been posted on the internet. I certainly have never been able to find much.

iHME

November 3rd, 2008, 10:41 AM

Now I'm suprised how much they resemble the luty creations. Maybe loty gor some of his inspiration from here? Anyway a good look, hi-res pics of improvised weapons are rather few and far between.

somtec

November 3rd, 2008, 06:35 PM

Back in the good old days when we could have handguns here in the UK I used to shoot IPSC practical pistol and there used to be a bunch of RUC guys who would come over and shoot on the mainland. During a conversation with one of them he stated that homemade guns were quite common but most were based on existing magazines be it sten, sterling whatever and that they commanded a high price as all sides struggled to get enough good magazines. Most jams are usually magazine related in some way so it can be the most difficult part to make and function as it should therefore an existing magazine is probably the best way to go but the magwell etc would of course need to be redesigned to suit.

somtec

November 6th, 2008, 04:58 PM

Not sure if you have seen this video or what you think of it. Yes I know its only a replica made of thin guage steel etc but I can see definate potential in the way its made for other purposes being discussed in this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjv6jkd9-3E

iHME

November 8th, 2008, 08:59 AM

That Thompson replica is just SWEET I want one!

jlwilliams

November 9th, 2008, 08:57 AM

One could build a TSMG type gun using the types of materials and techniques shown in the youtube film. The original Thompsons were over built to a near absurd point. Many of the real SMGs I have handled were made of fairly light material. The Sten is obviously a good example. The MP5 (first full auto I fired) is also made of more elaborately stamped metel, but still just stamped metal and plastic. The Mac series of subguns are well known for their ruggedness, being among the most popular for machine gun competitions here in the US, and they are no more than bent metal sheet about .080 thick. My personal SMG (legallly owned) is a Stemple 76-45 and it's no more elaborate than a Sten and it works well and safely. Point being if you had all the Thompson parts like the lower assembly, barrel, mags and the like that the guy in the youtube clip had, you could fabricate a steel tube and bent and welded sheet steel gun that would work quite effectively. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Full auto conversion of the Baikal Drozd CO2 gun. Macgyver

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Novem ber 11th, 2004, 01:40 AM

Thought this might be interesting to lo ok at, at least for us people in Europe that get the single shot version only when we b uy a Drozd. http://www.flopped.org/~m ykrowyre/drozd/ Have tried th is m od myself, works real good...

Jacks Complete

Novem ber 15th, 2004, 09:04 PM

I f a n y o n e k n ows where to buy one of these Drozd from in the UK, post details!

Macgyver

Novem ber 16th, 2004, 02:09 AM

Try York guns, I got m ine from there. http://www.yorkguns.co.uk vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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January 9th, 2005, 10:25 PM

Yeah yeah, I seen the Fully auto 12 gauge thread. But a lot peo ple were referring to the amazon or loom panics book sales links in which I'd have to fork over an undisclosed a m ount of cash for a conversion book that for the m ost part , wont be easily acco mplished or even work for that m atter. C a n t s o m e o n e t h a t h a s s a i d e x o t i c w e a p o n s s y s t e m b o o k o n t h e r e m ington 1100 m a k e i t a v a i l a b l e o n l i n e a s h a v e s o m a n y other conversions like the SKS to Full auto , or the Semi to Full-auto AK47 select fire conversion? I m ean damnit jim! I'm no tig ht ass, but for what my ru ger 10/2 2 exotic weapons system b o o k g o t m e a n d m y open bolt 10/ 2 2 b o o k d i d t o o , I ' l l b e d a m ned if I get ripped off again. I've got a few different files I can contribute , b u t I ' m g o n n a h a v e t o m a k e s u r e y o u g u y s a r e n t 1 0 s t e p s a h e a d o f m e o n recieving them . : c o n f u s e d :

billybobobrain

May 18th, 2008, 01:39 AM

I ' v e h a d m ildly good luck with the rugger 10/22 conversion. I screwed up several parts at first. Plus you have to be able to figgure out that so me of th e " T e m p lates" are not the right scale, m esure them and convert them . It works after about 60 m an h ours of cutting and filing. by the way this is not a good project for a Drem el tool. Also the aternate trip mechanism, which there are no tem plates for is the best set up.

MorrisOK

May 22nd, 2008, 08:36 PM

I'm sure that there is nobody on this site who is foolish enough to think that they are anonym ous online, b ut just in case I feel the need to post in this thread regarding the previous two posts. The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists. All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I had tried it a nd failed. It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit. I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post.

Sampson1986

A ugus t 6t h, 2008, 09: 31 PM

I'm sure that there is nobody on this site who is foolish enough to think that they are anonym ous online, b ut just in case I feel the need to post in this thread regarding the previous two posts. The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists. All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I had tried it a nd failed. It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit. I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post. Excellent advice. As far as I know, BATFE officia ls investigate every alleged NFA violation. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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January 23rd, 2005, 09:47 PM

http://ww w.happynanoq.dk/silencer/ Looks very professional compared to the 'homeshop' or 'homebench' silencer made from pvc pipes and coke cans.

Third_Rail

February 22nd, 2005, 07:54 PM

I hadn't seen that webpage before, thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't have thought of using a maglight body, but thinking about it more it seems like the perfect item to start w ith.

Gedi

February 23rd, 2005, 10:08 AM

Looking at the suppressor design, looks like it could easily be made. One question, I have a 1/2 unf 28tpi die set from dynasystems, but does anyone know where to get a 1/2 unf 28tpi tap? Thanks

skier4life99

February 23rd, 2005, 04:15 PM

I must agree with Third_Rail, a maglight body would be a perfect item to use; I had done a bunch of research at the US Patent and Trademark Office (http://w ww.uspto.gov/) and found several interesting designs, but this one seems to surpass them all in ingenuity. I do have one question though... How did you make/acquire the "nylon / delrin rod" that you used for the central baffling? Was it a solid piece that you carved and drilled? Thanks in advance for answering...

Anthony

February 24th, 2005, 02:50 PM

Anyone else getting a server error when trying that link?

tomu

February 24th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Anyone else getting a server error when trying that link? Yes, same with me, couldn't find server. As to using a Maglite body as a supressor tube, w ell this seems a bit expensive to me. Why doesn't he use a normal Al-tube? Al-tubes are available in any imaginable size at reasonable prices, certainly much cheaper than a Maglite.

skier4life99

February 24th, 2005, 04:39 PM

If you get the page to load, you will see that he makes good use out of the internals of the maglight body, including the threading, the battery cap, and the spring. Plus it's 'prettier' than a standard piece of AL Tubing and has 'built-in' grip for tightening and loosening it...

DaedalusX

February 24th, 2005, 04:41 PM

Here is the google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:B4nooZznmJgJ:www.happynanoq.dk/silencer/+&hl= en&client=firefox-a btw delrin seems pretty expensive ... Right now I'm trying to do it on a M4/AR15, I don't know if the aluminium body will be enough for the pressure of a 223 round. Most 223 silencers are 300 series stainless steels. http://ww w.advanced-armament.com/products/rifles/ranger.asp http://ww w.gem-tech.com/m4-96d.html http://ww w.impactguns.com/store/knights_m4qd_silencer.html

Gedi

February 24th, 2005, 09:00 PM

The delrin rod can be bought from several places. Be sure to measure the inner diameter of the maglight and then order one a little smaller. I used the diameter of a d-cell which is about 32.3~34.2mm which is about 1 5/16 inch. Just do a google search for delrin. Also, w hen you order, there is minimum cost, so be sure to add extra feet to the length. I ended up getting 3 feet for the same as a foot, just because of the minimum cost.

cyclonite4

February 24th, 2005, 09:37 PM

I had a similar problem viewing the link, it timed out. I remember searching google a few months ago on silencer designs, and reached a w ebsite w hich involved making silencers from maglite torch casings, this may be the same one, or a different site, running on the same idea. They looked quite impressive, and could be dissasembled for cleaning by unscrewing the battery cover. Is this the same thing? And IIRC, the guy was trying to sell them from his website.

cyclonite4

February 24th, 2005, 09:39 PM

As to using a Maglite body as a supressor tube, w ell this seems a bit expensive to me. Why doesn't he use a normal Al-tube? Al-tubes are available in any imaginable size at reasonable prices, certainly much cheaper than a Maglite. Maybe the maglite could be reassembled later to disguise the silencer, they are illegal in a lot of countries aren't they?

Bert

February 25th, 2005, 11:12 AM

Maybe the maglite could be reassembled later to disguise the silencer, they are illegal in a lot of countries aren't they? That maglite w ill never be re-assembeled again- He's used a lathe to cut away the end w ith the switch button and permanently affixed the barrel end bushing w here it once was. Nice design making use of OTC product- and maglites come up to 6-"D" cell. BTW, link w orked fine for me.

tomu

February 25th, 2005, 05:24 PM

The most interesting thing is the delrin part. But yes if I had too small a brain and too much money I would use a very heavy Al-Tube from a Maglite to make a supressor for a .22 l.r. Btw. this strenght of Al-tubing would be allright for the .223 Remington. Buying a knurling tool would probably be cheaper and he could make more nice looking supressors for all his other rifles as well. My guess is any Al-tubing is pretty much OTC, well maybe not the Al-tubes used in gasultracentrifuges.

doggie

February 25th, 2005, 05:52 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I dont see why it couldnt be made to look like the regular maglite. Concealment is handy in any case. just use a led and button batteries to give the illusion that the maglite was still just an operational flashlight (illustration below) < / a >

malzraa

February 28th, 2005, 08:19 PM

If the delrin rod won't hold the pressure of a 5.56mm NATO round, w hy not use a piece of aluminum or stainless steel and just lathe it out?

horadrim

March 1st, 2005, 10:10 AM

Tw o years ago I made a supressor for my Remington 597 .22LR out of a 3 D-cell Maglite that w as gathering dust. I spent about six months designing it to perform as w ell or better than what w as on the market. The common link I found in all the designs I looked at was the ratio between the gas volume generated by the pow der charge, the bore volume, and the internal volume of the supressor. This ratio (w ich I call the expansion factor) ranged from 13 - 17. My design has an internal volume of 11.19 in3 across 13 baffles, giving it an EF of 13. The baffles were made from aircraft aluminum stock and the spacers were turned and bored from stock PVC pipe. The muzzle adapter w as made from the same aluminum as the baffles and was tapped w ith 1/2-28 UNF threads. The rifle muzzle was CNC machined to ensure less than .005" TIR runout. I still have the Excel spreadsheet and Solidworks files if anyone is interested. Even though the 597 is a semi-auto, this supressor preforms extremely w ell w et or dry. All that you hear is the hammer and the round impact when using Dynamit Nobel subsonic .22LR ammo. At 100 yards without the supressor, groups average .75". With the supressor, groups average .5". This HappyNanoq doesn't seem to be utilising the maglites internal volume to its full potential and the more baffled chambers there are, the more effective it w ill be.

skier4life99

March 1st, 2005, 04:18 PM

I've been thinking quite a bit on this design and I have to agree w ith Doggie... though it would not be pretty while on the w eapon... if a bushing could be made that would fit INSIDE of the Al-Tubing, it could be placed distal to the rubber of the switch. This way w hen removed from the w eapon, it could have the head of the light screwed back on and a rubber plug placed in the battery cap exit-hole, and voila, a maglite that appears operational but is really a silencer. BTW, Gedi, thanks for the note about googling for Delrin...since DaedalusX w as from Eur, I thought it was a product from there, as I didn't recognize the name...

bigbadgrinch

August 28th, 2005, 11:37 PM

can find the new site at :rolleyes: http://ww w.happynanoq.dk/22lrsilencer/

dragginbody365

June 25th, 2006, 11:10 PM

What's a good place to buy a 1/2x28 tap for such a project? Also, since everything has to be perfect, when threading the hole, what do you guys reccomend to ensure a perfect perpendicular tapped hole?

Third_Rail

June 27th, 2006, 05:33 PM

Use a lathe, if you have one.

nbk2000

June 27th, 2006, 10:11 PM

Or chuck the tap in a drill press and use that as a support for turning straight threads.

Jaxxxom

June 27th, 2006, 11:58 PM

I'd love to build this suppressor, but I'm hung up! After actually seeing the finished one as well as the various parts, I think I could do it. I'm just hung up on the "bushing" that was used. If someone has a picture or even the plans for this design that shows the bushing, I'd really apperciate it!

pdphill

August 28th, 2006, 10:45 PM

Jaxxxom: I believe I understand the concept of the stainless steel bushing, however, the brass "washer" that attaches to the front of the bushing prior to the nylon tube is a puzzle, although I can imagine several versions. If you understand how that is built to allow for a chamber between the brass w asher and the bushing, I'll trade info. In reviewing old US Patent Office files on firearm suppressors (Patent #4,530,417) it appears that cooling of the combustion gases assists the reduction in sound. Has anyone tried placing aluminum, brass or copper w ool (similar to steel wool) in the voids to absorb heat and sound?

FU TI

August 29th, 2006, 02:30 PM

pdphill I didn't read that patent file but I think that if they mention cooling of the combustion gases didn't think along the lines you have proposed. They probably meant adiabatic cooling caused by rapid expansion of gases. Maybe fine wool you proposed or find in the patent can play a venting role on side ports of the suppressor(permit uniform passage of gas flow from high pressure to atmospheric but after some specific onset point/pressure). Couple different meshes to compensate for pressure drop through suppressor and I believe you w ould get fine result. But that design will be too fragile due to materials used.

DorikinGTSt

September 18th, 2006, 08:59 AM

w w w.silencertests.com has a great forum. ++ ++++ = If you're going to provide a link, please be bothered to make it complete, eh? ;) NBK

hot04wrx

February 17th, 2007, 11:08 PM

So far, the best place on the web to find a 1/2 x 28 tpi tap is McMaster -Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) industrial supply company. I ordered one and it was at my house in 48 hours after I ordered it. I found another site which is slightly cheaper but will have to dig through my pc to find the link. Hope this helps guys.

SecondAmendmentINC

January 27th, 2008, 11:37 AM

After reading pdphill's comment regular window screen or steel wool can help on absorbing the heat that is generated, roll it around a wooden dowel or similar item. You should also smear white lithium grease on the screen or steel wool to further reduce the heat generated by the shot. In turn it reduces the sound. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : SKS full auto conversion w/pics lowjack

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February 14th, 2005, 09:15 PM

After seeing a members ASCII art outlining the SKS auto conversion sears, I figured maybe someone might as well see the real deal and not rely on those outstandingly erronious diagrams.. Step by step...Here is the SKS F/A conversion... Enjoy!

Taken from sks Full-auto .pdf: Neil Sherman, PSC, Ed/AmAnon Press 1929 McGhee Road, New Market, TN 37820 Phone 615-475-4311 or 615-475-4696 EIN: 62-1172451 SSN: 408-25-7730 FFL's: 01-3K-19402, 03-3K-20249, 06-3K-20250 THE DOWN-N-DIRTY FULL-AUTO SKS (And Sumthin' Extra) I don't know whether this 'conversion' meets original Mil' Spec' or not. Haven't checked into it. I do know it works. The *.PCX Files, Sear1, Sear2, and Sear3, should help you out much more than these notes. If you can't view *.PCX files, let me know, I can supply *.TIF, *.MSP, *.IMG, *.CUT, & *.GX1 formats. The reason I didn't include them is simply to keep the file package smaller, hopefully increasing your incentive to get it. The Graphics Files were all drawn BY ME, in PC Paintbrush, using my own scanner to capture rough 'tracings' made from my own gun. I did NOT copy anyone elses stuff. There is no Copyright Problem since I did all the work - In other words, feel free to spread 'em around - and put the full "blame" on me. The first thing you gotta do, before you even consider making the conversion, is KNOW HOW TO DISASSEMBLE YOUR TRIGGER GROUP (Not just take it out, but strip it down to it's major components). If you don't know how to do that, even after studying the thing for twenty minutes, then forget it! Once you get your trigger group out, you must first remove the Hammer. The hammer has a 'nub' at the bottom which acts as a SECONDARY Disconnect. Cut that 'nub' off. Now look at the underside of the hammer. The 'raised' portion, in front of the Mainspring Shaft, is the Hammer's Sear. You'll need to cut a channel where the 'nub' used to be, about as wide as the 'nub, to about 3/32 of an inch from the edge of that sear (where the Mainspring Shaft is). So long as you leave that little bit of a 'wall' on that end of the Hammer's Sear, the Full-Auto Trip will 'catch' and hold the hammer back until the Bolt/Carrier is in Battery. If you cut all the way through that wall, your gun will be unreliable at best but will probably NOT fire full since the Hammer will merely "ride" the bolt all the way closed and never deliver a definite and independent impact to the firing pin. In any case, Once you've cut that channel, the Hammer work is done. In the Trigger Group, under the Hammer, you will find the PRIMARY Disconnect. When you force the hammer BACK, you will notice the bottom of the Hammer pushes down on two tits of THIS Disconnect (One on either side, though it's a single 'folded' unit). You only have to remove as much metal from these tits as it takes to prevent the Hammer from contacting them. Once you've got that done, the Disconnect work is finished.

Next comes the Primary Sear. This is the "Block" located at the forward end of the trigger group. It is pushed backward by a Spring that fits between this Sear and the Magazine Catch. There's an Inspection Hole on the Left side of the Trigger Group for you to view this Primary Sear Engagement. Take Note of the ANGLE of Engagement. What you need to do is IMPROVE THAT ENGAGEMENT to prevent it from becoming dislodged during recoil. With the Primary Sear Block removed, cut a "shelf" onto it that you will be able to see through the Inspection Hole. Here too, you want this "shelf" to be about 3/32 of an inch thick. You won't need it more than 3/32 of an inch deep either. Once you've got this "shelf" done, you move on to the Trigger Sear. The Trigger Sear is a "T"-Shaped Bar you can see best only by pulling up on the Full Auto Trip (The big, angled thing that sticks up out front of the Hammer). If you haven't removed the Primary Disconnect (discussed a little ways back) then do so now or you won't be able to finish the job! The front end of the Trigger Sear only needs to be reshaped to fit securely on the Shelf you cut into the Sear Block. Once you've got the Trigger Sear reshaped, reassemble the Trigger Group and put it back in the gun and have a field day. If you want to 'dry fire' the thing, go ahead. It will be quite informative to those of us who do not know how a Closed-Bolt Machine Gun functions. With the Trigger pulled back, hang on to the Carrier Handle and slowly let the bolt slide forward, toward

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Battery. If you did it right, the Bolt will STOP JUST SHORT of Full Battery position. The breach will still be slightly open. This is the point at which the Full Auto Sear is 'critical'. Any movement forward, from here, pushes the Full Auto Trip Down, disengaging the Full Auto Sear and letting the Hammer Drop. Because there is some distance, now, between the Hammer and the Firing Pin, there is a time-lag between when the Bolt Shuts and when the Hammer hits home. In a Closed-Bolt system, this timing is basically the only thing that ensures the gun will go off! I've had to rework enough guns, already, however, to know that just because all works well during a Dry Fire test, does not mean it will work with live rounds. All such 'failures' had one thing in common, though - The Trigger Sear disengaged under Recoil. Once a Definite and undeniable 'notch', or 'shelf' is put in place to engage the Trigger Sear to the Sear Block, the gun functioned Full-Auto. Simply improving the angle of the engagement proved wholly unreliable. BUT - An Improved Angle is the only way to get Select-Fire. In which case, you simply place a Spring (Arched, 'Hair Pin', or Coil) under the Trigger Sear, inside the trigger group. This spring keeps upward pressure on the Trigger Sear. You also need a

flat piece of Sheet Steel about a half inch wide. You'll then need to 'bend' this piece of sheet steel to fit around the outside of the trigger group, starting at the point between the Hammer and the Primary Disconnect, to fill in the "gap" you made by relieving the Primary Disconnect as described earlier, and wrapping around the Trigger Group clear to the same place on the opposite side. This little gizmo, if made right, will 'slide' back and forth. Full Auto will have it fully to the rear, Semiwill be had by pushing it forward, jamming it between the Hammer and the Disconnect. It's more of a Pain in the ass than it's worth, though, since you can actually shoot Double-taps within the first ten rounds you ever load - And you should find yourself shooting singles within the first twenty. Here's a Bonus. Save yourself $20 or so and KEEP YOUR BAYONET USEFUL. Cut your own "Muzzle Brake"/"Compensator". All it takes is a Hacksaw and a pocket knife or screw-driver. Look at your front sight. You'll see it's a got an 'integral sleeve' on it. Lay your Hacksaw on that sleeve, about 3/16 of an inch from the BACK (Your on the Sleeve NOT The Barrel) - Angle the saw at about 45 Degrees (The Top of the Saw angled toward the Receiver) and begin cutting. First you'll cut through the sleeve, and then through the barrel. Cut a little shy of the half-way mark (You want SOME Barrel there, and you want the gas to go more "up" than "out"). Move the blade about two blade widths forward (Toward the Sight base), and cut another slot. You have room for about 5 slots if you done it right. If you done it wrong, Hell! Just file out all the middle 'vents', leaving you a big gaping hole (I did that to mine as a way to clear mud - I carry the gun over the Shoulder, muzzle down - Sometimes when you sit down....uh....well, you know) When you're done with the saw, use a pocket knife or screw-driver to 'pick out' the burrs the saw left behind. When you fire the gun, you will notice a 'difference' in the recoil. It's not less, it's not more, it's just 'different'. But you will notice a BIG Difference in your shot-string! All things being equal, the gun wants to shoot in circles, instead of vertically! Now you have a Comp' withOUT Sacrificing your Bayonet! Mounting a Supressor is just a matter of using one of those "Slip On"/'Turn-n-Lock' Muzzle Brakes first - This will seal the Integral Brake you cut in, and it gives you a 'Mounting Point' by allowing you to thread the full length of the External Brake. A Supressor is really nothing more than a couple of tubes, one smaller than the other, some steel wool or fiberglass batting, a 3/8" dowel, a couple of Toilet "Flapper Valves", and two end caps to fit the larger of your tubes. Place the dowel in the smaller tube (1 inch I.D. Schedule 80 PVC Pipe is good, so is the heavier Electrical Conduit. Schedule 40 Steel Pipe is the best, but it's a Blue-Whale to hold when

finished). Fill the tube, around the dowel, with Steel Wool or fiberglass (Fiberglass is the Quietest - But Always use SOME steel wool at the gun's muzzle-end anyway - Helps prevent the Fiberglass from blowing back into the action). Keep the Dowel as close to the middle of the pipe as you can - This will be the Bullet Path when you take the dowel out. Now put one of the Toilet "Flapper Valves" at one end of the larger (Inch and a Half Inner Diamater) tube. You'll notice the 'Flapper' is Hollow - With an opening at the bottom of it's Cone Shaped 'Skirt' - This opening faces INTO the Tube - The Outside Solid Wall of the Flaper faces the OUTSIDE End of the Tube. It's not necessary, but it's 'good luck' to cut an "X" in the middle of the Flapper's Solid Wall - This eliminates any danger of any real pressure build-up. Now take your other Flapper and cut a hole in it's Solid Wall the

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same size as your threaded Muzzle Brake. Take the dowel out of your smaller tube and insert this tube into the larger one. Place the other Flapper at this end where your gun muzzle will fit. Put a 3/8ths inch hole in one Cap and put that cap on the FAR End where the bullet will be leaving the supressor. Drill and Tap a hole in the other cap to fit the threads you cut into your muzzle brake. Place this cap on the opposite end of your now completed Supressor. Your rifle now sounds like a weirded-out sound effect! Nothing at all like in the movies - Quieter as far as Muzzle Blast is concerned, but it still hurts your ears right through your eyes! I Cut the one I had down to about 9 inches and placed it on a Ruger MK 1 22 Semi-Auto where it has remained to this day. This works much better than trying to hush the Mach II velocities of Centerfire Rifle Ammo. If the demand is there, I'll make up an Addendum for the AK. Since that Conversion can only be made by installing a Parts Kit, though, I doubt it will ever be very necessary. But who knows. Since SK's are running at about $100, even an AK owner may think twice about investing in a Parts Kit since you can have a Full Auto SK for the same (actually less) money! Hope this was of some value. Neil :rolleyes: Here's a few sks sears required to convert to Full-auto. Sear 1: http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear1.jpg Sear 2: http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear2.jpg Sear 3: http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear3.jpg

lowjack

February 19th, 2005, 08:57 PM

grandyOse. I am sure there would be a number of parties most interested in the milled sks autosear, if you could find a way to upload it in the future.

Well I'm sure not too many of you are interested in the milled sks autosear, because here it is and not a "cool, or a right on" from anyone. Not that i crave anyones praise, but I just was hoping to help someone out with the 3 sear pics and the step-by-step in converting it in a way that wont blow your face off when it fires out of battery.

tdog49

February 20th, 2005, 01:18 AM

Easy there big guy....... It takes a lot to get a "Cool" from most of the people here. Not that they aren't interested or snobbish, it's just that "we" have seen a whole lot. The ftp is crammed w/full auto conversions, manuals, blueprints etc... Not to mention the "brainy" stuff on how to make all sorts of chemical thingys. Makes my brain hurt just to look at it let alone read it. Now having said that, Welcome to the forum. I for one appreciate your willingness to share. Hang out, chill, enjoy the ride and learn all you can about all you can before it disappears. oh yeah, And never assume someone hasn't benefitted from your contribution. Some of us will talk, but others (like me) would never tell anyone about actually having performed (or thinking about performing) anything illegal........

lowjack

February 20th, 2005, 10:41 PM

My bad..... I'm just trying to find anything worthy of contributing to the forum that isnt already been posted on or as you said,"In the FTP'. With all the kick ass shit here on this forum it seems like I'm never gonna get a glance at that FTP site. Well maybe a glance, but as for having access to it.... it seems impossible..

herminiano

February 21st, 2005, 06:43 AM

People, check the new file in the ftp site called "SKS Adaptation to take AK47 mags - Little how to manual". I putted this file today. I am sure you find it usefull see you herminiano

Third_Rail

February 22nd, 2005, 12:39 AM

Nice, I haven't seen anything this detailed before.

Good work!

lowjack

February 22nd, 2005, 09:32 PM

Thanks, maybe I do have something worth uploading to the fTP site. I also have the sks to ak mag modification.pdf, but I just assumed it's already be there. Is there a way I can browse the titles of the FTP files to see what I can contribute?

tdog49

February 22nd, 2005, 10:58 PM

yes, anyone can log in and view the content of the index. It just wont let you download w/o a personal account

Silentnite

February 23rd, 2005, 12:38 AM

Mega also has a thread over in FTP and P2P detailing what's in the FTP server.

lowjack

February 24th, 2005, 01:18 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter I would love to have the ability to download several titles in this boards FTP server. To add files to it I need something like bulletproof FTP, or a similar FTP program , right?

I know XP thinks it has an accaptable FTP function, but it dont. Not for Uploading or Downloading.

Silentnite

February 24th, 2005, 01:31 AM

FireFox has a decent Extension to download called FireFTP do a goodle and you should be able to find it. Otherwise, yeah.. Bulletproof or CuteFTP will all work. I really like CuteFTP. XP has no useful functions :p Back on topic though. :cool:

Illuminaughty

April 7th, 2008, 04:44 PM

SKS modifications to AK mags not done by the factory are typically NOT reliable. I'd suggest at very least purchasing an SKS-D or an SKS-M made from the factory and insuring it's reliability before tinkering it to full auto. On another note, I cannot imagine wanting a regular SKS in full auto.

BeerWolf

April 17th, 2008, 01:34 PM

I would wonder about the utility of a FA with a 10 round magazine. Adding a ak type mag or drum changes the picture considerably for the better, so I would start with an AK mag fed type to begin with. FWIW a friend once owned a factory built FN49 FA rifle with a 10 round clip fed magazine in 8mm. It would make what sounded like one BIG bang, with the rounds stringing about 8 feet vertically at 50 yards. Impressive,turned a lot of heads at the local range, but basically useless in combat. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Home Workshop Guns For Defense & Resistance, Vol. II skatastamoutra

March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM

I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book. I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching. Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help? thanks.

skatastamoutra

March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM

I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book. I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching. Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help? thanks.

skatastamoutra

March 23rd, 2005, 10:23 AM

I a m looking for sche m a t i c s b u i l d i n g a s e m i a u to pistol from this book. I have searched everywhere (and this forum ) and i can't find som ething similar, only full auto and single shot desig ns. Forgive m e m y english is not that good and i have trouble searching. Anyone got this book or or anything else that could help? thanks.

MaHem87

August 27th, 2006, 01:45 AM

I believe what your lo oking for m a y b e b e f o u n d h e r e ( h t t p : / / n w 0 . i n f o / i n d e x . p h p ? p = e B o o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n the Banned_books section. :rolleyes:

5_seven

S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2006, 07:32 PM

Here's a website (http://www.thehom e g u n s m i t h .com/) that you might find educational

chevellessls6

S e p t e m b e r 2 6th, 2006, 01:31 AM

:) I believe what your looking for m aybe be found here (http://nw0.info/index.php?p=eBo o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n the Banned_books section. :rolleyes: That is an awesome link with lots of good info, for noob s without chem istry backgrounds a t least!

AFLINED

October 31st, 2006, 10:09 AM

I believe what your lo oking for m a y b e b e f o u n d h e r e ( h t t p : / / n w 0 . i n f o / i n d e x . p h p ? p = e B o o k s % 2 0 a n d % 2 0 A u d i o % 2 0 B o o k s / ) i n the Banned_books section. :rolleyes: L o o k s t o m e t h e r e a r e s o m e p r e t t y g o o d b o o k s o n t h a t l i n k b u t I f a c e t h e p r o b l e m that when I try to open them all I get is s o m e gibbisch that doesn't make sense to m e. C o u l d y o u t e l l m e w h a t I n e e d t o h a v e i n s t a l l e d o r e w h a t l a n g u a g e I n e e d t o e n a b l e t o b e able of actually vieuwing these books?

Chris The Great

October 31st, 2006, 09:11 PM

Right click and "save as" will get you the files. I'm not sure why you get the weird gibberish with that site. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : full auto conversions FrankCastle

August 1st, 2005, 04:29 PM

Anyone got any books (in digital form at) of how to convert rifles to full auto? I've seen the paper versions for sale all over, but who wants the FBI watching them just for educa t i o n a l a n d e n t e r t a i n m e n t p u r p o s e s ?

Third_Rail

A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 16 PM

N o n e o f t h e b o o k s I ' v e r e a d d escribe easy ways to convert to FA safely. Do you have a m achine sh op?

FrankCastle

A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 53 PM

Nope, sure don't. :( But I do have some basic powertools, like a drill press, stone griding wheel, and couple of dremel tools.... plus everthing you would find a wood shop.

FrankCastle

A ugus t 4t h, 2005, 05: 54 PM

W ait, why would that m atter? I only want to know for the sake of knowing. Not to actually do it.

bigbadgrinch

A ugus t 9t h, 2005, 07: 58 PM

There are plenty of resources for this stuff, and I believe this ha s been covered e nough. www.fullautoglock.net used to sell a kit for glock firearm s, until the owner was arrested. see http://www.clarin.com /diario/2004/10/01/policiales/g-05702.htm use bablefish for tran slation. this inform ation is all over the place for all types of firearms, I sugge st you google.

Mr Science

S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2007, 01:59 AM

Here is a torrent I just made on that very subject, without the bother of having to purchase them . :) http://www.dem o n o i d . c o m / f i l e s / d e t a i l s / 1 3 4 4 0 0 5 /

Gimlet

S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2007, 02:06 PM

Here is a torrent I just made on that very subject, without the bother of having to purchase them . :) http://www.dem o n o i d . c o m / f i l e s / d e t a i l s / 1 3 4 4 0 0 5 / Just downloaded it and it is a very interesting a nd informative set of m a n u a l s . T h a n k s . Unfortunately the other torrents you link to on silencers etc. cannot be downloade d without a Dem onoid account as they are too old, and accounts are presently closed.

Charles Owlen Picket

S e p t e m b e r 1 2th, 2007, 03:53 AM

IF you pay close attention to a video (I believe on the FTP) that deals w/ this issue the concept of a "fixed firing pin" concep t is e x p l o r e d . T h e b o l t o n a 1 0 / 2 2 ( j u s t f o r e x a m ple) is VER Y easily modified via a piece of music wire to return and continue to process of th e "open bolt" auto concept. T h i s i s t h e s a m e issue [conceptually] that plagued the owners of certain SKS rifles when the firing pin staye d o p e n f r o m lack of a (firing pin) return spring & dirt or other material in the firing-pin hole. T h e n e e d e d m odification would be very easy to accomplish. The problem aside from legality would be that the auto-firing m echanism would be uncontrollable. The bolt-slap continual firin g would m aintain itself un til amm o was exhausted. But from a m echanical stand-point it is VERY easy to produce this effect.

indymuaddib

April 21st, 2008, 04:53 PM

m ost FA conversion are difficult to do because they require extensive mo dification of parts and ma nufacture of new parts. the simplest conversion would be a M1 carbine to M2, requires the purchase of a hand full of non regulated parts and no m odification to existing parts. second easiest would be the AK but it requires that the triparm and bolt scallop be properly timed, difficult to perform without knowledge of the systems design and function. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : The Home Gunsmith k_semler

August 8th, 2005, 01:55 AM

There is a lot of very useful and very valuble information here. I don't know if you have seen this site before, but here it is: http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/ Use this information at your own discression.

guerrero

May 18th, 2006, 12:08 PM

Yes, I´ve seen this very interesting page, too and I downloaded serveral information. But now, since the last week (or longer, I don´t know), unfurtunatelly the access is impossible. Does anybody know something abbout the reasons?

TheAdversary911

May 19th, 2006, 11:01 AM

Damn, it says they're offline due to police harrassment!

S510

May 19th, 2006, 01:16 PM

Does anybody know something abbout the reasons? From the site; "This site is currently off-line. The homegunsmith.com is still around but is temporarily suspended due to police harrassment." :(

tdog49

May 21st, 2006, 02:25 AM

In the mean time..... Head over here---www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi Lots of guys building lots of different types of weapons. Mortars, pistols, rifles, etc.....

TheAdversary911

May 21st, 2006, 02:47 AM

I like that site, but stay the hell out of the soapbox podium forum. They are a bunch of retards outside of gunsmithing.

tdog49

May 22nd, 2006, 02:13 AM

Does anybody know something abbout the reasons? Well, Let's see ...... 1. He was convicted of illegally manufacturing a full auto firearm. And to be completely fair---- he did do it. He admits it and there is photographic proof of him constructing it as well. All politics aside he is/was guilty. No further questions or arguments for (or from) either side. 2. Now that he is out of prison, he continues to publish information on constructing the same type of weapons and also now is into ammunition construction as well. Technically this is not illegal since all he is doing is disseminating information. As of yet there is no evidence of any recent illicit happenings. 3. HOWEVER! and this is the point of contention (I am sure) If you are convicted of a crime and then try and teach others how to commit the same crime, you are going to continue to attract the attention of the authorities.....for a long time......a very LONG time. In short he has broken the 1st and possibly 2nd rule of any one who does not want this kind of attention. 1. Leave no witnesses. 2. Leave no trace. Now having said that ( I know, you weren't expecting a lecture were you?) I hope this is only a temporary setback... the world needs more people like P.A. Luty

S510

May 27th, 2006, 07:56 AM

Just to let you know, It's back up for me. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Reactivating a Glock 17 Super0071

January 31st, 2006, 01:53 PM

How would you go about reactivating a deactiva ted Glock 17? Inform ation about the Glock 17 is the Glock 17 was dea ctivated before 1995. The deactivated firearm has, fully working gun m ovements and is fully strippable it is also cap able of dry firing. Now, say if I got my hands onto the co mplete uppers section of a Glock 17 brand new, this would include a barrel top slide a n d a l l c o m p o n e n t s I t h a t slide and t h e Recoil Rod. And let s s a y I g o t m y h a n d s o n t o a complete receiver part replacem e n t kit. (All parts in side the receiver). Now I would have thought from that it would have been possible to reactivate the Glock 17. The on ly thing that I am concern e d about is that, the barrel in the Glock 17 might not be re m o v a b l e i.e. welded in place which will m ake it difficult. For am munition I would have though if I got some INER T a m m u nition I would be able to convert this into live amm unition is this possible? This post is of course theoretically speaking and I am n ot going to build the firearm a n d g o r o b a b a n k l o l : e e k :

nbk2000

January 31st, 2006, 08:43 PM

Before we can tell you how to reactivate the gun, we must first know how it was de activated. I'm a s s u m ing the barrel has been plugged and welded into place, with the slide rails cut to weaken them ? Also, have you searched for previous discussion threads here ab out reactivation of DEWAT ' s a n d p r o p g u n s ?

Super0071

February 1st, 2006, 1 0:48 AM

Im not sure exactly h ow the firearm was deactivated, as i have not actually purchaced the item yet. But i was worried if the barrel was welded on that will cause problems. would it be easy to remove, keeping the base of wh ere the barrel is conected in tact so m y orginal replacm ent glock barrel will fit perfectly. The slide can also be replaced as i have all orginal parts of a glock 17 except the reciver.

tomu

February 2nd, 2006, 12:03 PM

Find out if the Glock can be disassem b l e d . I f i t c a n b e d i s a s s e m bled the barrel is not fixed to the receiver. Change the deactivated barrel and the slide and the Glock will be alive again. If it can't be diassembled, try to get your hands on a LEP-Glock (it's a real Glock m odified to an air gun, I forget the english Brandname for this type of gu n). with this type of modification only the b arrel and the slide is mod ified. Reactivating see above.

Illuminaughty

April 7th, 2008, 04:42 PM

Deactivated Glock cannot be reactivate d u n l e s s y o u h a v e a g o o d w a y o f f u s i n g s m all, precision metal parts to the polym er fram e. Good luck with that. Also, the only "deactivated" glocks I've seen are cutawa ys. W ould be interested to know about other m ethods of deactivation, and used by whom. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Plans of Sardauker Press guerrero

March 8th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Since a quite long tim e I try to get plans of "Sardauker Press" referring to the construction of concealable weapons like "can egun", "buckler", "boltgun" and "p engun". Does anywhoe know where can I find theese plans. I refer to com p l e t e p l a n s with dim ensions in printed or digital form.

Third_Rail

March 15th, 2006, 01:23 PM

I, to o, am quite interested in the plans. I spent a long while searching, whether to buy or download I didn't care. I couldn't find anything eve n resembling plans; I think they m ay be lost for go od.

tomu

March 15th, 2006, 05:14 PM

Hi there, have a look at: http://rapidshare.de/files/155 98534/Sarpen.zip.htm l It's a ZIP-File of the Sardaukar Pengun-Plans.

Third_Rail

March 17th, 2006, 04:12 PM

Thank you. One down, m any to g o.

tomu

March 18th, 2006, 12:25 PM

http://rapidshare.de/files/158 19519/sarzapper.zip.htm l It's the Sardaukar Zapper, a modified Zippo lig hter to fire .22 short.

bipolar

March 19th, 2006, 12:32 AM

W O W , thanks tom u . I s e a r c h e d o u t t h o s e p l a n s l o n g a g o a n d g a v e u p . I even bought that zips pens and pipes book to look at the scaled down diagrams of each of the plans, which is useless after s e e i n g t h e s e especiallty. Y o u d o n ' t h a p p e n t o h a v e t h e b e l t b u c k l e g u n o r t h e b o lt gun would you?

tomu

March 20th, 2006, 02:04 PM

Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/15993421/sarbuckler.zip.htm l There are the plans for the Buckler Belt Buckel Gun. The Plans for the Bo lt Gun will follow soon.

charger

March 20th, 2006, 07:47 PM

I just had a look at the Buckler - W O W ! I just wanted to thank you for your efforts. Looking forward to the next installm ent. Not trying to sound greedy, but do you b y a n y c h a n c e h a v e t h e c a n e g u n p l a n s ?

tomu

March 23rd, 2006, 04:58 PM

Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/16251798/sarbolt.zip.htm l Your Download-Link: http://rapidshare.de/files/16251158/sarcane.zip.htm l The next two plans are ready for downloading.

charger

March 24th, 2006, 08:11 AM

Thanks for the latest installm ent of Sa rdauker Press.

Third_Rail

March 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM

Fantastic! These are prints I've been looking to get for ages.

Ropik

March 25th, 2006, 07:29 AM

Good work, tom u. Thank you very m uch. I was interested in these plans since reading Zips, pipes and pens. You don't have Fogger plans, do you? Once again, thanks.

Third_Rail

March 26th, 2006, 12:38 AM

I just cleaned up the cane gun pictures, m a d e a P D F a n d u p l o a d e d i t t o t h e F T P a s " S a r d a u k a r C a n e G u n . p df".

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It's all set for printing out in 1 1x17, for those of you who are interested, like m yself. I'll be doing the rest tomorrow, most likely.

Panzerfaust29a

July 1st, 2006, 12:22 PM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e t h e " R o c k e r " A R - 7 p l a n s f r o m Sardaukar Press? I have been looking for them for a while. Also if anyone is interested in selling the original Sardaukar Press "Rocker" AR-7 plans or knows where I can purchased them let m e know. Thanks. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Brocock revolver conversion to live firing tomu

April 5th, 2006, 12:37 PM

It is easily possible to fire .22 long rifle cartridges with a Brocock revolver of this caliber. I know of at least three calibres .177 (4,5 mm) .22 (5,5 mm) and ,25 (6,35 mm sometimes designated as 6,5 mm) in which Brocock revolvers are available, obviously it's only possible with the .22 (5,5 mm) to fire real .22 lr cartridges with the help of a special adapter cartridge.

This adapter consists of a round steel body which is turned to the outer shape and dimensions of the Brocock air cartridge. It is much easier to use a thickwalled tube with a 5 mm or 5,5 mm bore and turn it to the proper outside dimensions and after that drill and ream the inside holes. If a metal lathe is not available a tube can be dressed to the proper shape if chucked in a electrical drill and by using a file (lots of skill is required by that way an it s lots of work). The adapter is drilled and reamed all way through the middle with a hole of the size of the .22 lr cartridge, if a chamber reamer (Brownells) is availble great, if not a suitable drill and a normal reamer will suffice. The second larger hole is drilled and reamed only partly through, this hole holds the hammer.

The hammer is a piece of small round steel or brass stock with a small firing pin, which is fixed off-center to hit the .22 lr cartridge rim. There two ways to make the hammer. First way would be to drill a small hole off-center in the hammer face and solder/epoxy a short piece of 1 1,5 mm diameter piano wire in it, it should protrude not more than 1,5 mm and the striker face should be slightly rounded. The next ways is to cut a slot at the side of the hammer and solder/epoxy in a flat piece of spring steel, see diagrams Dimensions of the .22 long rifle cartridge and chamber might come in handy for making the adapter. The first number is the maximum dimension of the cartridge, the second number in brackets is the minimum dimension of the chamber, all dimensions are in millimeters (mm). Lenght of the shell body (L3): 15,57 (16,33), Thickness of cartridge rim (R): 1,09 (1,09), Diameter of cartridge base (R1): 7,06 (7,32), Diameter of shell body at the base (P1): 5,74 (5,76), Diameter of the shell body at the cartridge throat (H2): 5,72 (5,72). Different types of adapters can be made. One as described above for firing a .22 lr cartridge, thos adapter can also be used to load .22 blanks with separate bullets if access to .22 long rifle cartridges is regulated by gun laws.An adapter can be made which could use blank firing center firing cartridges and be loaded with a separate bullet also adapters can be made to load a air gun pellet ( BB or Diabolo) and use a center fire primer ( shotgun shell primer or any other type of Boxer primer) for propulsion (see diagrams). Proper tools, especially drills and reamers can be bought at any tools shop which supplies metal working shops. Drills and reamers are available at 0,1 mm steppings. A very good source for gun smithing tools, like chamber reamers and properly sized drills, is Brownells (www.brownells.com/).

TreverSlyFox

April 6th, 2006, 09:43 AM

Interesting, never heard of the Brocock Cartrage System so I did a little research on it. From the looks of the system your "Conversion" looks quite possible. Off the top of my head I can only think of two or three "possible" problems with it. 1. Chamber Pressure: Your "conversion" cartrages had better be pretty strong of quality steel. A "Target" .22LR, 40gr bullet at 1080 fps developes 26,500 psi chamber pressure and a "Full Blown" .22LR 38gr bullet Super/Hyper Velocity up to 1750 fps has to be pushing at least 30,000 psi chamber pressure. I'm not sure what the Maximum SAMMI listed chamber pressure for a .22LR is. 2. Barrrel throat wear: All pistol barrels have a "Forcing Cone" at the start of the barrel that A. Starts the bullet into the rifeling and B. Compensates for slightly with Out-of-Time cylinders (the cylinder chambers don't exactly line up with the bore). The barrel is made for a .22 cal soft lead pellet expelled at about 410 fps by a "cold" gas. A regular .22LR cartrage bullet is expelled by a "Very Hot" gas at 3-4 times the velocity that the pistols barrel isn't made to take and may well fail in a very short time. It will depend on the steel used by the manufacture of the barrel. 3. Recoil Shock: The frame of the pistol could well be cheap "Pot" metal as a CO2 pellet at 410fps isn't going to produce much recoil. A .22LR may produce a lot more recoil shock to the frame than it's made to withstand. Again it comes down to what steel the maufacturer used to make the frame from. I think from a safety stand point #1 is your biggest problem to overcome. #2 is much less of a problem other than accuracy over a period of time though that time could be very short. I think #3 falls somewhere in between #1 and #2 but "may" be avoided by just making sure you buy a good quality pistol in the first place to make the conversion with.

tomu

April 6th, 2006, 12:44 PM

Brocock and other Air cartridge type guns are quite popular in Europe, in the UK you will need a licence for them nowadays, but in Germany they can be bought by anyone over 18 years old. There are two types of this guns, first are real guns converted to Brocock Air Cartridge System and ones which are originaly produced for this Brocock system. In Germany they are called LEP (Luft Energie Patrone). There are also pistols available, but this conversion only works with revolvers because the cartridge shells of the pistol ammo is to small/short to take the .22 lr cartridge and the special striker/ hammer. Also the firing pin of Brocock Pistols is flatened so it will not fire a primer or a blank cartridge. The conversion is certainly not only feasible ,it works. Did it, tested it with several types of Brocock revolvers. With this type of adapter it certainly does not make sense to go to a shooting competition, but for self defence it's ok. To #1: I'm european so I use the metric system, sorry. A .22 lr cartridge develops a maximum pressure (CIP) of 1800 bar which translates to 180 Newton per square millimeter. Even the softest steel has a tensile strenght of about 330 - 380 N/mm2 and even the more interesting yield strenght for dynamic stresses is over 220 N/mm2. No pressure problem at all with .22 long rifle ammo. So, I would not advice to use high velocity ammo, with short barrled revolvers it wouldn't make sense anyway. The steel adapter takes all the pressure and distributes it over it's large outside area to the cylinder walls, it's just a few Newtons. The adapter could even be fired without being in the cylinder from a pressure point of view. to #2: The barrel liners used in Brocock revolvers are genuine .22 barrel liners made of steel and like in all revolvers (and in any other gun as well) the barrel has a forcing cone. to #3: What recoil? Have you ever shot a .22 lr? The recoil of a .22 lr is so weak, even plastic can stand it. Many commercial .22 lr guns also have a frame of what you call "pot-metal", I know of at least one .38 Special revolver which also has a die cast zinc alloy frame and it doesn't cause it any problems. The high velocity hot powder gases can and will cause errossion of the frame around and above where the barrel is fixed to it, but with a .22 lr it's not a real problem. BTW. I made the first prototype of the adapter out of brass because I had the brass round stock at hand and it worked.

bobo

April 6th, 2006, 03:31 PM

One question about .22 caliber though. For my pistol I have different ammo than for my rifle, both are cheapass .22. The gundealer said it was NOT a good idea to use rifle ammo in pistol and vice versa, because the barrel would not withstand it or something. I assume this is what you mean to say about high velocity ammo? By the way, this conversion has been known for some time by the police, have the brockocks remained the same in the mean time?

Jacks Complete

April 6th, 2006, 05:05 PM

These pistols are a red herring in the UK. After a few were found to have been converted, they were all confiscated, or put on Section 1 or 5, and are now treated the same as a real pistol. You might as well get yourself a Glock 9mm or a Buckmark .22, as the 5 year minimum prison sentence is the same for having a Brocock air pistol, or having an UZI. :-(

tomu

April 6th, 2006, 08:22 PM

To BoBo: Automatic Pistols can be picky about the type of ammo you fire, high velocity ammo shouldn't be fired out of them. It will but more stress on the gun and the gun is likely to jam because of feeding problems. It's not about the pressure, the maximum pressure of a cartridge is regulated by SAAMI in the USA and by CIP in most other countries, and a gun must be constructed so it will withstand the maximum pressure of the calibre it is made for. It's a question of bullet weight and velocity or to make it short it's about energy. A high velocity cartridge will stress the gun more than a normal cartridge will do because it develops a higher energy. To Jacks Complete: It's really a shame what they are doing in the UK. But it's going to get thougher everywhere in Europe. I agree totally with you if one can get his hands on a real gun, be legal or not, I wouldn't bother with converting a Brocock. But getting an illegal gun is not everybodies bussines, one must be afraid not only of police and snitches but also of the illegal gun dealers itself. So it comes all down to availability and ease of availbility. A Brocock is certainly easier to get than a real gun in most parts of Europe. Brocock's or LEP's (have a look at www.egun.de and do a search for LEP) as they are called in Germany are readily available in Germany for anyone who is at least 18 years old. Btw. parcels send within Europe are no longer subject to customs controlls. And the real beauty lies in the fact that the gun needs not to be altered and the adapter itself is legal in most countries. As far as I know it is easier to get a licence for a Brocock gun in the UK than it is for the real McCoy, at least one doesn't need to provide a reason for having a Brocock, but I'm not an expert on UK gun laws.

Jacks Complete

April 12th, 2006, 05:28 PM

Climbing K2 is easier than swimming the Atlantic, but you couldn't call either one "easy". Section 1 (Brocock grandfathering) is fairly straightforward, just have the police come round for an interview, send them counter-signed pictures, money, get a safe, go to a gun club for 6 months, fill out a big form, have your criminal and medical records checked, and more. Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State, and allows ownership of real pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, etc. I've heard that there are 7 people with these for pistols in the entire country. Even gun shops can't have them! Oh, and expanding bullets live there too, along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds.

bobo

April 19th, 2006, 06:02 PM

LEP = Luftenergiepatrone As far as I can see these are conversions from live guns to airguns. Not that I am familiar with german law, but doesn't the conversion to normal weapon include making it permanently useless for live ammo? Are you saying any LEP be remade into a live firearm as long as it's 5.5 mm?

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April 19th, 2006, 08:51 PM

You are right on both assumptions. Brocock/LEP revolvers in .22/5.5 mm calibre can be made to fire live .22 lr cartridges with the help of the above described adapter without making any modifications on the gun itself.

tomu

July 26th, 2006, 02:02 PM

Because of numerous requests for the graphics I post a download link of the sketches: http://rapidshare.de/files/27105290/brocock_adapters.jpg.html

oxbeast

July 26th, 2006, 03:33 PM

It's interesting to note that many of the LEPs posted for sale on www.egun.de are actually real firearms that have been converted to LEP. The little (originally .38 spec) Derringer is very nice. I see it's current owner payed 190 to convert it to LEP. The Titanium coated Walther is a crying shame ! Sad to see people had to do this to functional firearms.

sibear

August 2nd, 2006, 12:05 AM

Sadly it is no longer possible to get a section 1 license for a Brocock (or any other air cartridge) pistol/rifle in the UK anymore. Applications for existing owners had to be in by January of last year (or was it the year before). It is also ilegal to sell or transfer said weapons. As for getting them sent in from mainland Eurpope; if you could find someone willing to do it, all overseas parcel post is x-rayed and dog handled. Almost impossible to get one in. That said there are something like 25000 unlicensed Brococks still in circulation. The adapter conversion works perfectly with brass and steel as a UK Govt firearms supplier informed me.

Jacks Complete

August 3rd, 2006, 10:57 AM

It's not sad, they have a place. You can't practise with a real gun in your home, but with a Brocock adapter and barrel sleeve, you can, as it is just an air pistol. It also has *exactly* the same trigger pull, feel and looks as your regular gun. sibear, yes, that's right. To get a new one legally, you need Section 5. Which is impossible to get. So you can buy (and be "trusted" with) a .50BMG rifle, but not a toy air pistol. Great country!

hemiboy

September 22nd, 2006, 06:36 PM

Thanks for the drawings. I made an adapter from good quality steel and fired a few rounds from my "ME Specialist". I'm a happy camper, except about one in six shots where the bullet struck the target sideways. Whats up with that? Too sloppy tolerances on my adapter?

5_seven

September 23rd, 2006, 07:41 PM

I found it was easier to purchase a blank shooter and switch out the barrel and cylinder for .22 cal steel. I bought a 'replica' of an old Olympic arms snubby for twenty bucks, the cylinder was about thirty, and I just bored out the barrel, put in a liner, and she fired fine. My reasons for using a starter pistol are seemingly obvious, it's meant to fire blanks, which are simply cartridges without the bullets (though there may be differences in the powder used, or the amount, if I'm wrong please correct me) so you know it's meant to take that kind of stress. And since the only kind that you can effectively modify into a live fire weapon is a revolver, it's easier to find one real cheap. The one I purchased I got at a hunting goods store, if they ask any questions, it's so you can train your dog for hunting. I don't know about the availability across the pond though.

grendel23

September 24th, 2006, 03:46 AM

Even if a starter pistol used the same type and amount of powder in a blank (I doubt it), it would generate very little pressure due to the lack of confinement. I wouldn't assume that such a device would safely fire a live round. I would fire several rounds from cover remotely and check for damage before I would hand fire it.

tomu

September 24th, 2006, 11:11 AM

...snip except about one in six shots where the bullet struck the target sideways. Whats up with that? Too sloppy tolerances on my adapter? Congrtulation, for making these adapters. I experienced the same problem with my first prototype adapters, the problem was that I drilled the hole through slightly angled because the drill went off maybe 0.1 mm or so. Solution was I drilled the hole first in the round stock and then turned the outside contours between centers.

5_seven

September 24th, 2006, 06:13 PM

Even if a starter pistol used the same type and amount of powder in a blank (I doubt it), it would generate very little pressure due to the lack of confinement. I wouldn't assume that such a device would safely fire a live round. I would fire several rounds from cover remotely and check for damage before I would hand fire it. I used a cylinder made for firing live ammunition, and put a liner in the barrel, (as I'd written in my previous post.) I have fired it. It's not accurate, but it works, and it's safe to shoot.

Arisaka

September 25th, 2006, 06:23 PM

Congrtulation, for making these adapters. I experienced the same problem with my first prototype adapters, the problem was that I drilled the hole through slightly angled because the drill went off maybe 0.1 mm or so. Solution was I drilled the hole first in the round stock and then turned the outside contours between centers. Hello Tomu, Are these adaptors for sale ? Great sollution if you live in Europe :cool:

tomu

September 27th, 2006, 02:50 PM

@Arisaka Unfortunately I can't sell these adapters, under the valid gun laws in my country it's not clear if one needs a licences to buy them. And I'm certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial. Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live. Who am I to ask for some sense in laws. If you can't make them yourself, there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee. All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements. Without the hammerpiece it's a hardguess for them what the adapters are for.

Gunjack

September 28th, 2006, 01:29 PM

An alternative for the .22LR cartridge might be the .22WMR that delivers about the same energy on target as a 9mm para. The only trouble is the high chamber pressures. I know st37 steel (common) can hold the .22LR pressures but what about the .22WMR? The .22WMR the same in rim and diameter as the .22LR, the only difference is in its length and of course its energy and pressure.

tomu

October 3rd, 2006, 06:03 AM

The .22 WMR is simply to long, don't forget you also need the hammer/striker piece. If pressure would be the only concern just use 42CrMo4 (in the US I think it's 4130) or similar steel.

Arisaka

October 10th, 2006, 05:40 PM

@Arisaka Unfortunately I can't sell these adapters, under the valid gun laws in my country it's not clear if one needs a licences to buy them. And I'm certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial. Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live. Who am I to ask for some sense in laws. If you can't make them yourself, there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee. All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements. Without the hammerpiece it's a hardguess for them what the adapters are for. I'm to the west of your location if you live in Germany and am very font at al the ersatzteilen :cool: Next month i will be at the Kassel messe and will watch some of these revolvers.

Cobalt.45

October 12th, 2006, 06:01 PM

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I know st37 steel (common) can hold the .22LR pressures but what about the .22WMR? Keep the wall thickness >.25".

eback83

February 17th, 2007, 07:20 PM

please can somebody post some pictures on the adapters ? the old links dont work... =( thanks

Boom-stick

March 1st, 2007, 02:13 PM

I went down the route of using shot gun primers but found them very dirty. I actually adapted the TAC's internals by using the guts of the TAC to hold the primer instead of making a whole new sleeve. Worked well, but very slow on the re-load. This of course only works on the Brococks with sprung firing pins, my Fox rifle works on a canterlever system and therefore can't deliver the force required to fire the primer.

onemanriot

March 30th, 2007, 12:54 AM

He who didn't have access to a lathe or other facilities could always adapt an existing brocock cartridge to fire 8mm centerfire blanks. This could be done via drilling out the inside so that the blank is a TIGHT fit and filing down the end plug leaving only the thread. This is possible but difficult using a and drill, as there is only JUST room for the blank. The central rod from the cartridge can be suitably butchered to form a striker. There is a lucky individual who has access to a supply of obsolete .32 blanks, with the rear plug removed these are a near perfect fit inside the cartridge. PLEASE NOTE that any such bodging of the brass cartridges while it may work and be very entertaining is not safe. tomu's method is safe however especially if used in one of the wheirauch guns.

Osis

December 28th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Time to wake this thread up... I bought a brand new Brocock ME38 magnum .22 for a couple of weeks and this is what I've made during christmas. This cartridge is easily loaded with a .22lr shot. I haven't seen any signs of high pressure etc. It really works perfect. Here are som pics of what I'm talking about: All parts needed http://img172.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80039_IMG_0056_122_1077lo.JPG Simply put things together http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80365_IMG_0057_122_1163lo.JPG And it's ready for firing http://img211.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80368_IMG_0058_122_259lo.JPG http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80371_IMG_0059_122_1067lo.JPG The firing pin and the empty 22lr cartridge http://img205.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80377_IMG_0060_122_111lo.JPG

I also made some drawings with correct measures for you guys to work with. (PDF-file ~6Mb) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TI1LMU5S

And of course... ONLY USE IN .22 GUNS!!!

tomu

December 30th, 2007, 06:17 AM

My congratulations Osis this is an ingeniously simple idea much easier to make than mine with much less tools. Great!

Boom-stick

February 19th, 2008, 01:05 PM

Osis, Did you make them up yourself or did you get a machine shop to do it for you? either way, it looks great. Much better and safer than my shotgun primer method.

Latindude_002

February 19th, 2008, 10:51 PM

Hello, new guy here, I also have a brocock revolver that I'm looking to add kick to. (I'm in the USA, no ban here). There's a company in the USA that makes cartridges powered by primers, for use in centrefire guns. They also supply a .177 barrel to install in said guns. I am in the process of having some cartridges custom made for a brocock, using the 209 primer. I will report how well they work, although some people who have used 209 primers report 10ft/lb of energy, a 50% increase from air. Osis, you made a brilliant invention; however, a .22 short bullet is 0.223, as compared to regular airgun pellets which are .220. Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel?

Boom-stick

February 26th, 2008, 12:13 PM

, a .22 short bullet is 0.223, as compared to regular airgun pellets which are .220. Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel? I'm not osis or connected with him/her but the .22 slugs from rimfire rounds are a pretty soft lead compound, barrel damage is minimal.

Chris Werb

May 16th, 2008, 08:07 AM

Section 1 (Brocock grandfathering) is fairly straightforward, just have the police come round for an interview, send them counter-signed pictures, money, get a safe, go to a gun club for 6 months, fill out a big form, have your criminal and medical records checked, and more. Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State, and allows ownership of real pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, etc. I've heard that there are 7 people with these for pistols in the entire country. Even gun shops can't have them! Oh, and expanding bullets live there too, along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds. Sorry but you can't 'grandfather' Brococks - they're all S.5 - it's just that owners that had them were allowed to declare them by the date Part 5 of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) came into effect and have them put on an FAC (the police could not refuse an FAC for this purpose for lack of 'good reason'). (Other S.5 weapons also go on FAC if you're not an RFD - the dfference is the Chief of Police cannot refuse you an FAC if the Home Secretary has granted you the S.5 authorisation). If you 'discovered' you had a self contained air cartridge system gun (even a lever action rifle or a Saxby & Palmer No4) you would have to hand it in. Here's the section of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) under which sales and transfers of Brococks were 'banned'. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030038_en_6#pt5-l1g39 Osis, you made a brilliant invention; however, a .22 short bullet is 0.223, as compared to regular airgun pellets which are .220. Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel?

I thought .22S/L/LR bullets were .221" - hence their inaccuracy in blowback adapters like the M261 for AR15/M16 type rifles chambered for .224" bullets? Strangely enough early .22 Hornets took true .223 bullets (which are still available) although later/current ones are .224.

Padro

May 21st, 2008, 06:53 PM

I found these pictures of a real conversion set for a .38 revolver vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines? Log in

View Full Version : Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines? Gollum

June 17th, 2006, 12:59 AM

I am looking at buying a .45 in hi capacity, but due to the 10 round restriction for pistol mags it's a pain in the ass. It should be able to hold 12 or 13 rounds with the high capacity mags. I'd also like to be able to modify some magazines for the vz 58 that I'm going to pick up soon, the 5 round magazine really sucks. It should be a 30 round magazine. Anyone know how to remove the limiter in the mags without destroying the magazine, and allowing it to be used to full capacity?

tiac03

June 18th, 2006, 03:05 AM

So wait you want to go from a 10 round mag to a 12-13 round one? I don't understand why you would risk getting caught with an illegal mag for 2-3 rounds instead of just buying more 10 round ones... As for the other mags there should be a pin welded in the mags along a corner, just open up the mag, find the pin and find a way to pry it/ grind it off. Anyways if you opened up the mags you would have seen what I am talking about. It's not hard to spot just a piece of metal that stops the mag from going further down than the 5 round mark. (atleast it should be, thats how they block the SKS 10 round mags) Obviously modifying a mag can get you thrown into jail so before you do that ask yourself if it would just be better to buy more 5 round ones... but since you probably don't have the right kind of licene for that rifle anyways I guess you arn't worried about mag restriction. So have fun...

Gollum

June 18th, 2006, 07:41 PM

Actually the rifle can be bought with your basic firearms license.. it's just a normal semi-auto rifle. However it's not like anyone is going to know about the mods I'm doing to it. Strictly in-the-bush shooting gun. + An extra 3 rounds in a 45 caliber gun are perfectly welcome with me. Are you sure it's as simple as you decribe? I heard somewhere that they not only put a pin through the mags but cut some of the spring in the mag so it won't handle that many rounds.. Not sure about that though.

Nico

June 29th, 2006, 03:13 PM

In the US while the ban was in place, mag bodies often had indented ridges preventing the follower from going any lower to accept more rounds. Some mags just had "tall" followers that would hit bottom sooner than full-caps, these could be replaced with normal followers.

Dank$taVegas

June 29th, 2006, 09:22 PM

I would say your better off to get 3 extra clips as any one can switch out a clip and be slinging lead down range in a matter of seconds..... And this way you are perfectly legal. What is 3 extra bullets going to do really, when you could have another clip slapped in in a matter of seconds. High capacity clips sold in Canada vary in design the one that I am familiar with is a permanent pinned clip, and have had a block of steel riveted or tack welded into the inside of the magazine. This can be filed out or grind, drill, dremel or use a hack saw blade to remove this pesky block of steal. This is the type of clip that I am familiar with but there are a number of ways of limiting the amount of ammo a clip can hold depending on the company you obtain your clip from. When modifying a clip I do believe you will have to modify the spring as well. So a new spring will have to be fabricated or ordered from a manufacture. Another option at getting a high capacity clip with out being limited; is if you know someone who works in a Army Surplus store, they usually have connections and can get what you want under the table. They usually don't deal with people they don't know, as it is risky to them. My friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his .22 semi auto, which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip; you can shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away When your out in the field or in the bush the chance of getting caught with a un-restricted clip are slim to none. Just don't give the porkers any reason to search your house. Do a search on Google.ca and search Canada only, for .45 High capacity clips I'm sure you will come up with many manufactures and they will specify how the clip is made on their web site on if they don't and you really want to find out you could E-Mail them and ask how their clips are limited.

Big Mac

June 30th, 2006, 12:09 AM

I could have sworn that they build some of the mags to where you basically will destroy it if you try to modify it. Either that or if you have no exact idea what you are doing you will destroy it. Personally throwing good money away for marginal magazine capacity isn't worth it. If you need 13 rounds of .45 ACP, you're probably in over your head. I wouldn't recommend it, not to mention liberal courts love to fry people for doing things like that as opposed to actual criminals. Just saying, are 3 rounds worth it?

Dank$taVegas

June 30th, 2006, 11:24 PM

Wow I must have been sleeping to have missed that!

"Actually the rifle can be bought with your basic firearms license."

Wrong. These guns are Restricted in Canada, but not banned. Meaning any one with a "RESTRICTED LICENCE", who can legally own handguns and other restricted gun may purchase one. So just having a basic fire arms license will not allow you to obtain this type of firearm or handgun for that matter. Although getting a "Restricted License" isn't too hard at all. If I remember correctly it's a weekend class, or you can opt to take the test without the course (In class time). :D I took the weekend course some time back.....You might want to talk to your dealer that you are planning on obtaining your Rifle & Hand gun from, and ask him about this as I'm 99.9% sure that every where in Canada is the same, and they are concidered "Restricted Guns". The VZ-58S carbine that is imported in to Canada is not the military issue ones sold else where, each one is made to abide by gun laws here, meaning they are a watered down civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic ONLY receiver! This carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to its brother the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a special semi-auto receiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components. So the one you are planning on buying is a VZ-58S Carbine, unless you are buying an illegally imported version, sold under the table or on the black market. The usual cost of one of these "Civilian legal versions" VZ-58S run from $600-$700 new "Canadian dollars".

Gollum

July 1st, 2006, 10:07 PM

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I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about- the VZ58's that have been imported into Canada can ALL be purchased with the basic unrestricted license. The guns are NOT restricted firearms. They're semi automatic long guns and therefore fall under the non restricted category of firearms. Call the firearms centre for yourself if you don't believe that. They're open until 7pm eastern time every weekday. They have a website too which can be found on google. Making modifications to the magazines or firing mechanisims is of course illegal, but exactly how is anyone going to know about those changes? Also, FWIW, modifying guns to fire full auto is in my opinion, useless. Full auto is a big waste of ammunition, you can fire nearly as fast with a semi auto just by tapping the trigger numerous times. And it's much more accurate that way. The purpose of having 30 round magazines is one of convenience and saved time.

Dank$taVegas

July 2nd, 2006, 12:28 AM

Web site link below: The military issue VZ-58 carbine is a definite departure from the norm in both historical terms and with regards to the 'semi-auto only' version we have introduced to the Canadian market. Originally developed in Czechoslovakia during the 1950's, the Samopal VZ-58 was adopted by that country in 1958. This is no small accomplishment given most other Warsaw Pact countries were 'persuaded' by the U.S.S.R. to manufacture Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles rather than use their own designs. That the light, well-balanced VZ-58 carbine remains the front-line infantry rifle of the Czech Republic almost 50 years after it was adopted is further proof of its excellent ergonomics and reliability. Now, thanks to Marstar Canada, a civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic only receiver has been imported for the C anadian market! Our VZ58S carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a special semi-auto receiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components. Each carbine incorporates new and arsenal refinished milspec components and is individually inspected, test-fired, and certified by the Czech Proof House prior to our importing them. As this rifle is not a Kalashnikov (AK-47) variant it is not prohibited. The VZ-58 (VZ-58S) features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restricted, meaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one). The following accessories are included: Taken from: http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm Everyone that I go shooting with also tells me that these guns are considered "Restricted Firearms" as well. One of the guys is the president of the local gun club, who really dose know his stuff. Maybe something changed and they were just recently taken off the Restricted list.... It's possible. :confused: I'll search the net later tonight and see what I can dig up. I'll also make a few call to some gun dealer and other places here in my province and see what I am told. I'm also in the process of writing a E-Mail to the company I'll post Both E-mails when I have confirmation. Anyways, the more I read about this gun the more I'm starting to like it, we'll see maybe I'll have to get myself a early B-day present. ;) Naw I'm still paying of my deer gun I got last year :rolleyes: Cheers

Dank$taVegas

July 2nd, 2006, 03:54 AM

Some things I have found, please take note of the Bold & Underlined Parts. Restricted firearms include: handguns that are not prohibited; semi-automatic, centre-fire rifles and shotguns with a barrel shorter than 470 mm (about 18.5 inches); rifles and shotguns that can be fired when their overall length has been reduced by folding, telescoping or other means to less than 660 mm (about 26 inches) http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/faq/default_e.asp features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restricted, meaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one). http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm So there it is, this gun is concidered a Restricted Firearm in Canada. Also some guns are even more restricted in the provincial level, so this is just the basic's for Canada...Some Provinces are even more harsh. These Regulations came into force on December 1, 1998, so if you were inquirig about this gun before this date, maybe that is why you were told this firearm could be purchesed with your FAC Licence which classed fire arms into 2 class. As of December 1 1998, Fire Arms were devided into 3 classes (Non-Restricted, Restricted & Prohibited) There are three classes of firearms: non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. Non-restricted firearms are ordinary rifles and shotguns, other than those referred to below. Restricted firearms include: handguns that are not prohibited; semi-automatic, centre-fire rifles and shotguns with a barrel shorter than 470 mm (about 18.5 inches); rifles and shotguns that can be fired when their overall length has been reduced by folding, telescoping or other means to less than 660 mm (about 26 inches); and firearms restricted by Criminal Code Regulations. Prohibited firearms include: handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm (about 4.14 inches) or less and handguns that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition, except for a few specific ones used in International Shooting Union competitions; rifles and shotguns that have been altered by sawing or other means so that their barrel length is less than 457 mm (about 18 inches) or their overall length is less than 660 mm (about 26 inches); full automatics; converted automatics, namely full automatics that have been altered so that they fire only one projectile when the trigger is squeezed; and firearms prohibited by Criminal Code Regulations. On another note about how Hi Cap magazines are limited: This should give you an idea of how the magazine in question is made and that way you can plan how you intend to modify it. After reading this and other related material, some magazines will be almost imposible to modify with out destroying the Mag. A large-capacity magazine is not prohibited if it has been permanently altered so that it cannot hold more than the number of cartridges allowed by law. Methods accepted by law here in Canada include: In the case of a magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion & attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of aluminum or steel (as the case may be) may be welded, brazing or another similar method. In the case of a magazin with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum the attachment plug, sleeve, rod etc that is similar to that of the material of the magazine casing, may be welded, brazing or other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue. Hope this helps you out a bit.... Have you concidered making your own magazine this might be an easier way to go about getting the extra 3 shots you desire.

Gollum

July 3rd, 2006, 07:54 PM

Sorry, you are wrong, I have a recording of a firearms officer and a police officer telling me that the gun is legal.

Jacks Complete

July 3rd, 2006, 08:35 PM

Ok, stop arguing. One of you is saying it is banned because it is a semi-auto rifle, the other is saying it isn't, because it is too short to be a rifle, and hence is a handgun. As for the extra 3 rounds in the mag, forget about it. That's the kind of thing that bites you in the ass for no reason. I can't see a benefit there, YMMV. However, the 5 up to 30 round conversion, that's probably worth doing. I'd leave it stashed in a baggie under a rock where you shoot, though, and would never take it home, just in case. Losing your license for a trivial infraction would be a bitch.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Dank$taVegas

July 4th, 2006, 12:09 AM

There is no arguing going on, we are trying to figure out if this gun is Restricted or not… So far all the information I have found and posted says this gun is Classified as a Restricted fire arm, I never said it was banned either, you need a special license to own one. The license is very easy to get as well. The reason why this gun is Restricted is due to the barrel length, as that is what all the information I have gathered says. If however my information I gathered (From a government site, and one of the biggest Importers of this gun into Canada, and other reliable sources I have talked to) are wrong, I would like to know. So if you could post something that will say other, I'm all ears and willing to admit I was wrong, and all the other sources I have gathered info from were wrong too, then they should be contacted to make corrections on their sites since they are spreading miss-leading information to the public. . I'm sorry if it comes off like I'm arguing, I'm just trying to find and post correct information in the forums. As that is one thing that had drawn me here, all the knowledgeable people, and 99.9% of the information is correct (Unlike most other places on the internet).

Dank$taVegas

July 4th, 2006, 05:46 PM

I have a recording of a firearms officer and a police officer telling me that the gun is legal I'm sure you do, this gun is legal in Canada, there is no question about that. It is just Restricted. I have gotten around to calling today "The Canada Firearms Centre (CAFC)" which is run from a branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as Monday was a holiday, and inquired about the Samopal VZ-58S, and they confirmed that this gun in question is classified as a "Restricted Gun" due to the fact that the barrel is shorter than 470 mm. And in order to purchase this rifle in question you will need to have a "Restricted License". Anyone would like to inquire about this for them self can Call 1 800 731-4000 or visit the Canada Firearms Center's web site at www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca. The number is a toll free call. I'll leave it at this, since all my questions and doubts have been answered with that simple phone call.

cletus

July 18th, 2006, 03:54 PM

An extended mag base will get you an extra 3 rounds of.45, I am guessing that the pistol is a 1911 style. Simply slide your mag base off and install the extended one. This works for the para ordance and norinco hi-cap mags. Talk to any IPSC shooter in your club and find the nearest accesory dealer. These are legal to own in canada, installing them is not.

tiac03

July 20th, 2006, 03:00 PM

The beauty of the canadian system is that they have the 3 basic types of fire arms, and the definition of each. Then some guy looks at pictures of guns and classifies them due to how scary they look. (The chinese made a .22 that looks like a crappy knockoff of an m-16, and its listed as restricted here) Any weapon that was originally full auto but converted to semi, can fall into restricted or prohibited, because they were originally full auto. and I believe there is something in there that says "ak-47 and their varients". It wouldn't even surprise me if they listed it as a prohibited weapon because it 'looks dangerous' The 1928 thompson for example is prohibited even though it was built only as a semi automatic. and just to tell you about those people incharge, a thompson according to them is "too powerful" to shoot in a shooting range (indoor pistol/ small rifle) even though you can fire any pistol you want. Its like saying a sten is too powerfull to shoot indoors.

I don't know about now how they have changed it since harper has been in charge though, so maybe it is different now.

charger

July 23rd, 2006, 02:00 PM

I'm hoping this may help clarify the legality of the cz 58 in Canada. As sold by Marstar, it is a restricted firearm, because of the short barrel. However, there is another Canadian supplier, Wolverine Supplies, that sells a non-restricted version called the CZ 858 -2. It has a barrel length of 19 inches, making it legal to own with a regular license. Hope this helps

Dank$taVegas

July 23rd, 2006, 03:44 PM

Thank you for the heads up on the Wolverine Supplies site, you inadvertently pointed me in the right direction for a product I was searching for! :D I have been in contact with the dealer and have ordered a catalog from them. I can confirm that this dealer "Wolverine Supplies" Imports both versions of this said gun the Restricted VZ-58S "Restricted Version" with the 390mm barrel and a "Non Restricted Version" CZ 585 with the 482 mm. This is a good example of why it is critical to provide proper details about anything talked about on the forums. For when you are referring to the VZ-58S you are talking about a Restricted gun, and all the information I found pointed to this, had you said you were planning on getting the CZ 585 the information would have pointed to a Non Restricted gun. As NBK2000 points out in his riddles all the time, the changing of a letter number or anything can make a big difference on the topic. I.e.. The id riddle referred to in the Fake ID thread! Thank you for clearing this up charger and for providing the name of the dealer. This company (Wolverine Supplies) might be a good place for you gollum to ask and find out information about Hi-Cap magazines, since on their web site they have a few for sale, and after getting off the phone with the owner he seems like a really nice guy, who went well out of his way to help answer all my question I had. So I'm sure he would be more than happy to give you a run down of how Hi-Cap Magazines that he sell are limited. Just don't tell him you plans.

Marmaloon

October 1st, 2006, 09:36 AM

Here's the poop so to speak: Non-restricted version: http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/default.asp?Pg=8&do=3&mcid=1&scid=12&pid=43 Restricted version: http://www.marstar.ca/rifles.htm I hear they are quite nice. I would consider one good for lugging around in the bush. My first choice for a military serious gun would be a Garand, however. For an extra $100 dollars or so more than the Wolverine Supply version, that's the general asking price for a Garand. My big bro has a Dane and a nice Canuck T-26 *referring to the barrel, which is 19 inches. Also notice Marstar is selling the parts-made-in-Vietnam, assembled-in-the-warehouse-district-in-Australia #4 knockoffs. I would not buy one as they are apparently made by the Asian mafia. As an aside, you can get all the standard capacity 25-50 round magazines for the Ruger 10/22, it's just too bad such a magazine is not offered for the 10/22 Magnum, if so, I suspect that would be a more popular gun up here, although the ammo price would put that in check, too, as we all know .22 Magnum ammo is expensive. As for 'de-limiting'(?) I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole. If you need more rounds, get a pouch made up with stripper clips with 5 rounds in each. I think you may be able to get them from one or other of the above vendors. The Cz is set up for stripper clips, unless you want to put a scope and a half dozen :rolleyes: Picatinny rails on it.

Nico

February 21st, 2007, 11:08 PM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter For adding capacity to standard magazines, the brand "Arredondo" is the best for quality and the round-count:size ratio (i.e. a G18 mag has tons of capacity but the dang thing sticks out a mile :) )... Brownell's carries 'em.

InfernoMDM

February 22nd, 2007, 04:42 AM

I played with the real thing over in Iraq, some Air Force POG was trying to tell me how it was a AK-47. Although similar in appearance they defiantly aren't. From what I do remember though the magazines are damn near the same. I would assume to save money these guys probably made the magazines with either a block and short spring, or a pin like others have said. If so then it wont be any problem cutting out the block/pin. The only real issue will be getting springs. Instead of fabrication you might want to purchase some full size springs and have someone mail them to you from the US as "replacement car part" etc. That might since I doubt Canada keeps a record of what the hell a AK spring looks like through a X-ray machine. As long as the bodies and followers aren't sent I think you will be set. As for the extra rounds in the pistol see above. If for some reason it is a 1911 you could probably send the base plates the same way, but you will need the springs as well. I haven't really meet anyone who believes anything over 10 rounds is a good idea in a 1911. They apparently don't function as well, feed properly, and I am not even sure any good companies like wilson, Chip McCormick(SP) carry them. I could be wrong, but all the 1911 nuts really look down on anything above 10 rounds. Now I am going to bed with my Walther and 1911 in this fine state that allows me to own them without being anally probed over a stupid round count. I mean jesus if you have 3 more rounds you might actually be able to hit someone because the first 10 are warning shots right? Good luck.

LurkerLurker

November 28th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Another option at getting a high capacity clip with out being limited; is if you know someone who works in a Army Surplus store, they usually have connections and can get what you want under the table. They usually don't deal with people they don't know, as it is risky to them. My friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his .22 semi auto, which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip; you can shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away . The magazine size restriction does not apply to rimfires in Canada. For example, the 10-22 butlercreek steel lips magazines. They were available in Canada, even when USA had their hi-cap ban.

Killy

November 28th, 2008, 07:51 PM

This is total nonsense, from 10 to 13 rounds of .45 ??? Majority of the .45 pistols holds only 10 rounds, due to the pretty big round, there are not so many gun models that hold more and have normal magazine not sticking out of the frame. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : .30 caliber Homebrew SMG The Noid

Log in

November 24th, 2006, 07:13 PM

Hello to all. Allow me to introduce myself. I am the Noid and I'm fairly new here, but not to firearms. I collect all types of rifles, pistols, and machineguns, but I really wanted to build my own. I'm very familiar with automatics (especially the Kalashnikov system) in general as I own a couple legal ones so I thought I would apply my knowledge to constructing my own submachine gun. I've studied Luty's work and I really like his ideas. Very simple. I wanted my SMG to operate in a similar manner, be a larger caliber, but use existing gun parts that were readily available to me out of my parts reserves or fairly common. I wanted the weapon to fire a decent round, something with more power than a .380 or .32 ACP. I decided on 7.63 Mauser, which is almost if not identical to 7.62 Tokarev. I have literally thousansd of empty cases of 7.63 Mauser so ammo was not going to be a problem. This is what I came up with: 'http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/933/theprojectpj4.jpg' I had a beat to hell M1 Carbine stock and surplus barrel left from restoring an old M1, so I thought that those would be useful. I had my local gunsmith to cut the chamber on the M1 barrel to accomodate the 7.63 Mauser round. The reciever is made of 1.75" outside diameter steel pipe with threads cut to fit that of the barrel. I also had to weld the gas port on the M1 barrel closed. I had to use a lathe on some of the bolt, but for the most part is hand made. The extractor is an extra Mauser Broomhandle C96 fitted onto the bolt. The charging handle is from an old .22. The trigger assembly is a hodge-podge of Sten/PPSH-41. It's pretty much a slightly scaled version of Luty's. The spings are all from a Sten Mark III. The magazine is made from two aftermarket M1 Carbine mags welded, sanded, and blued. One M1 mag would have given me only 11 rounds since the 7.63 is larger in diameter than .30 carbine. I had to make and insert to fit in the magazine to keep the rounds in place since 7.63 Mauser is a bit shorter than original .30 carbine round. The max magazine capacity is 24 rounds. 'http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4861/theproject2mx1.jpg' This is a top view of the magazine with ammunition. You can see at the top of the magazine where I made the insert and modified the follower to accomodate the shorter 7.63 round. I have shot two magazines through it and it only jammed once, and that was on the fourteenth round of the second magazine. I plan to add some sort of optics eventually. I will apologize for the quality of the pictures. I went out and bought a cheap ass Concord 2.0 megapixel camera just to take pictures (it was all I could afford!). As for a film of the weapon being fired... that won't happen unless I can find someone with a capable camera, but if I do, I'll post a video. I plan on making a real "Luty" model SMG in the next three months, but I thought I'd knock this project out of the way. I hope you enjoyed it and feel free to ask questions. Thanks.

neo-crossbow

November 27th, 2006, 01:02 AM

Graet little build. I think I mentioned the other day both the .30M1 and 7.62X25 calibres. You should look at an ultimak scout to top off the M1 Carbine barrel. These mount nicely and mean you can get rid of the top wood from your stock.Check here for more info 'http://www.ultimak.com/m6.htm' 'http://www.ultimak.com/gallery/30M1AimpointChoate.jpg I have one here with an Aim Point sight and torch, with the compulsory threaded barrel. 'http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2233/carbinemr5.jpg 'http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6521/threadgr1.jpg

The Noid

November 27th, 2006, 02:57 AM

Oh, that's nice, Crossbow. I'll definitely check into that. That stock I have on there is crap. You can see in the picture where I had to repair a chunk of wood the right side with a slice of maple wood and epoxy. The previous owner broke the stock while whacking at a dog that was attacking him. Dunno why he didn't shoot it. I'd really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing. Or perhaps a vertical foregrip of some sort. I know that would help with accuracy. The 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev is a great round, and so is .30 carbine. I think they were the fastest round in the world until .357 Magnum came out. However, I have to be careful about shooting the two calibers in the SMG. Surplus Tokarev rounds are much hotter than Mauser. I think it could handle it, but I don't wanna take a chance of screwing it up. I worked too hard on it.

neo-crossbow

November 29th, 2006, 04:12 AM

The 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev is a great round, and so is .30 carbine. For a long time both rounds carried some dogmatic hate from most people, I have heard of the .30 Carbine being reffered to as 'the poor man's 300 whisper' but alas when your onto a good thing run with it. I am a great fan of the above calibers. I think the 30 in particular is a good tinkerer of a cartidge and a great wifes gun (I know mine complains at the "recoil" from a mini-14.... I'd really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing. Or perhaps a vertical foregrip of some sort. I know that would help with accuracy . I have only had experiance with the ramline synthetic stock, but I would like one of those folders from ultimak. As you can see in the pics of my carbine with the Aimpoint I have the capability to mount a fore-grip but instead have a remote torch mounted ( spose I could do both .) I simply got a length of rail and milled it into the wood, epoxied in some knurled brass nuts and tightened it. You can't use a lazer on the set up as you don't retain zero, but a torch and fore-grip work well. Keep us updated~! vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Scratch built AR15 receiver Log in

View Full Version : Scratch built AR15 receiver tdog49

March 5th, 2007, 02:45 AM

Alright, been a while since I've posted. Ran across this a while back and thought I'd share it......Kinda useless to upload it to the ftp since the pdf file is right on the site... http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/project6/project6.html

nbk2000

March 5th, 2007, 06:31 AM

Rip the site, save as a RAR, and upload to the FTP, as you never know when a site will go 404, never to be seen again.

amsci99

March 6th, 2007, 02:52 AM

Agree with nbk2000, such information are hard to come by. Remember seeing similar construction articles in the defunct magazine 'Firepower' when I was younger.

InfernoMDM

March 11th, 2007, 11:51 AM

I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR.

borax

March 12th, 2007, 08:02 PM

I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR. After assembly and before live firing, I manually dry cycled the firearm and doubled checked that the safety, disconnector function, trigger, and magazine catch worked. Everything checked out OK. I took it to the range and fired 60 shots. No major problems! I had 2 failures to go into battery - had to push slightly on the forward assist. I'll keep shooting it some more to break it in, but other than that, I am very pleased with the scratchbuilt receiver... well on to the next project!

InfernoMDM

March 14th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Don't quote whole posts! You are a braver engineer then I am. I know the best of AR's have had issues. Just a suggestion but piston driven conversion kits are being sold online for 399-4XX. You could get one and that MAY solve some issues. I really want to see a report when you hit the 2000+ range. I like what you did and its very impressive.

chemdude1999

March 14th, 2007, 09:29 PM

... piston driven conversion kits are being sold online for 399-4XX. POF makes a great piston upper, but the price is outrageous I feel. Maybe someone could design an easy home-built alternative. An AR-15 that doesn't shit were it eats would be great, especially if it was cost-effective.

InfernoMDM

March 15th, 2007, 02:24 AM

They are on the market, and its a conversion of your old upper. Just saw them on a gun forum today. Apparently there are 3-5 companies making these upgrades and they very in reliability and quality.

tdog49

March 16th, 2007, 01:01 AM

alright , I followed NBK's request and the info is now on the ftp. It is in the "upload" folder, lumped in with all the loose pdfs.... btw, am I the only one that is a little creeped out by festergrump uploading a pdf on butchering human carcasses??? LOL----I downloaded it anyway!

120mm

March 16th, 2007, 02:06 AM

I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR. It's not "that" finicky. If you are getting out-of-battery problems with a homebuilt AR, look at your ammo (Wolf tends to be low-powered and "sticky") the alignment of your gas-block. (I chamfer the hole in the barrel to make it easier to align, and make sure your gas key is properly installed and staked in the BCG. The lower receiver in the AR is pretty non-critical. You can have all sorts of slop, machining-wise and still have a functional and accurate weapon.

nbk2000

March 16th, 2007, 02:17 AM

Speaking of Wolf ammo, I've read numerous times about how, after rapid fire and subsequent heating of the chamber, the plastic coating they use on the casing will melt and fuse with the chamber, making it impossible to use the weapon until the stuck cartridge is rammed out with a cleaning rod. Cheap ammo, yes, but only use MIL-SPEC brass cased ammo for a war load.

festergrump

March 16th, 2007, 06:52 AM

IIRC, some Wolf ammo is lacquer coated and some isn't. I'm not sure if it matters more which factory manufactured it or the year it was made, but there is a difference which folks should be aware of. BTW, Tdog49... You gotta do something with them. You can't be a bad boy yardie and just CREATE the bodies, now can you... and I don't happen to have a pig farm. :p :D

tdog49

March 23rd, 2007, 03:48 AM

alright...... I have uploaded a new folder of "how-to" info (starting with ar-15 stuff) onto the ftp. I think that this is new stuff that was not already on the ftp. I went through directories until my eyes bled and didn't see any duplicates but I am a welder so my eyes aren't worth much....

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter where to look: folder:UPLOAD folder:tdog49 folder:Ar-15

reddog_2711

March 23rd, 2007, 09:27 PM

Just yesterday, I came acrossed actual blueprints and cad files for the reciever, sear and housing. If I can figure out how, I'll post them

InfernoMDM

March 28th, 2007, 08:07 PM

Just yesterday, I came acrossed actual blueprints and cad files for the reciever, sear and housing. If I can figure out how, I'll post them Yeah they are floating all over the net. I know several guys make there own weapons from blanks, etc. If I can find my old stuff I will post it.

chemdude1999

March 28th, 2007, 08:51 PM

http://www.cncgunsmithing.com/ He has CAD files.

festergrump

March 28th, 2007, 10:21 PM

Which version of AutoCad, if any, supports .IGS format? I know 2000 or earlier doesn't. Do I need to download a copy of Solidworks just to be able to transfer it to .DXF or .DWG format? Can this be done with SW? I got all hot and bothered when you mentioned CAD files... .PDF files are a dime a dozen and won't do it justice, at least for me. ACAD is the only way to go. Many thanks for the link, though, Chemdude. Must...... have........D.X..........Aaaaaaaaah!.............. .... "He's dead, Jim." :eek: (so I'm an old Trekky. So what! :p )

chemdude1999

March 29th, 2007, 06:20 PM

Sorry I didn't mention the .IGS files. I know SolidWorks is a pain. I use to have a copy on my machine, but dumped it since I needed the space. I did find a possible viewer: http://www.modelpress.com/igs-viewer.htm If it doesn't work type "igs file viewer" in google. It has more listings. Good luck.

Phanatic

April 1st, 2008, 10:40 AM

This is....interesting, considering you need some near-unobtainable license in NZ to get this. Maybe a project for the future when I have my own house and hopefully by then, workshop. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : beretta 92 full auto macgyver6868

> beretta 92 full auto Log in

March 11th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Does anyone know how?I know of 2 ways and was wondring if there were any m ore.The first is to have a set of parts for the beretta 93r and m achine them to fit th e 92 fram e . T h e s e c o n d i s t o m ake an auto sear.I know how to do the auto sear,but i dont have a pic to describe it.

defiant

March 11th, 2007, 11:49 PM

The Beretta 92 is a fine pistol as it is, nor would it be controllable in full auto. W hy convert it? W ouldn't your time be better spent on some oth er project?

knowledgehungry

March 12th, 2007, 01:15 AM

The only benefit of a full auto handgun is it gives you p ractice reloading. W hile I am sure it would be fun to have a full auto handgun, I think it is a waste of a good quality gun. If I wanted a full auto handgun for fun I would buy a cheap knock off gun, not waste a perfectly good one.

LibertyOrDeath

March 12th, 2007, 05:53 AM

I'm with the others. Even full-auto rifles are difficult to control and aren't of much use beyond about 25m , when sem i is better (unless you have a belt-fed weapon, with support like a bipod). Full-auto handguns in respectable calibers are alm ost never controllable. You'll ge t more h its in less time with rapid sem i-auto. Also, the very high rate of fire on m ost m achine pistols will cause the m a g t o b e e m p t i e d i n a s m all fraction of a second -- brraaappp! That makes "tactical reloads" (reloading with a round still in the chamber in case you need it) almost impossible. If you feel you must convert a handgun to full-auto, you should at least add an im provise d stock to the weapon. It shouldn't be too difficult to m a k e a n d m ight look something like the stock for the R ussian Stechkin APS m achine pistol: http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Stechkin_APS vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Production of a rotary drum magazine DeathBlade

Log in

April 24th, 2007, 10:37 PM

Well since the 'assult weapons' ban is gone, I've been stocking up on high capacity mags for my sks, pistols, etc. But there is one weapon in my collection that I shoot the most but only has a seven round clip, a mossberg 'plinkster' .22 And as we all know reloading after seven shots is a drag, So I trying to make a high capacity magazine for the .22 and after digging in my junk box I've come up broken windup alarm clock for the main spring some strips of stainless steel some deltrin and pvc blocks, and another clip for the plinker. I've gotten stuck when I try to visulize if this would work or not. The diagram below should help, can someone see something I'm missing? Also does any one know of some 'exploded' diagrams of other type of drum clips, that might give me a better idea? In the image the Red object is the follower, the Blue coil is the main spring The Copper colored circles are shells, the main problem is that some shells will stay in the verticle section of the clip. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/DeathBlade556/clip.gif

Khalnath

April 25th, 2007, 04:50 AM

That is the general idea of a rotary drum magazine, yes, but I doubt you will be able to make one yourself easily. It's tricky engineering to get those kind of magazines to feed reliably. It'd be nice if it worked, though. In Canada, we have magazine restrictions but not on rimfire rifles, so hicap rimfire mags are in high demand. Also, what you describe is a magazine, not a clip. A magazine feeds ammunition into the chamber. A clip is used to load a magazine. The En bloc clip of the M1 Garand is a good example. Generally, if it has a spring, it's a magazine. If it doesn't, it's a clip.

ChippedHammer

April 25th, 2007, 05:12 AM

Drum magazines are difficult to build and are not too reliable, they also put strain on the magazine release mechanism due to having 100+ rounds inside. If you shoot 100 rounds you still have to reload 100 rounds, personally I would just buy heaps of a magazines rather than go to the trouble of making a drum magazine.

InfernoMDM

April 25th, 2007, 12:52 PM

If you want to attempt this and you are going to make your own might I suggest looking at the 1022 high capacity magazines. You might just be able to take a old magazine for yours and jury rig it to the top and then have a follower with a few extra dummy rounds to push the last round in. Besides even if you dont want to go plastic the internals of the magazine might give you some ideas to work from.

nbk2000

April 25th, 2007, 01:39 PM

I know there are drum mags made for the 10/22. Buy one of those and replace the top with a magazine that fits your gun. The problem with drum mags is that reloading them is a drag too, unless they're like the chinese AK drum, which pops open so you can just drop in the ammo, not feed it in one-round-at-a-time.

DeathBlade

April 25th, 2007, 02:35 PM

With a stick mag you might have an extra foot of magazine under the receiver, and I want it to be somewhat compact, so its a drum mag. And as for modifying a 10/22 mag, I never thought of that. So I guess I'll look into modding a 10/22 (or maybe a calico .22 helical mag). And NBK's comment about a removeable back to the drum is great, it would ease up reloading the magazine. And as for fabbing one I was doing some math and I can use a strip of 1/16th inch steel strip and Tig it in a spiral to a disk of 1/8th" and I can use a .22 shells as spacers as I'm welding it. I think the clock spring might be too weak, but I have the spring from the pullstart from a weed trimmer so that should be stronger. I'll post picture of the progress as I get to fabricating it.

sobreroHWE

April 25th, 2007, 04:16 PM

The price of AK's,mags,parts etc has been going up quite alot recently (DeltaForce, my Ultra rightwing state etc.). AK ammo is on it's way to being unaffordable to the common person($90/1000 4 yrs ago-$170/1000 today), and I have seen drums go from $75 when I bought mine in 2000 (Chinese type NBK mentions) and today I can't find one in any gun show or shop for less than $140. When mine was damaged from a "science project malfunction" a local gunsmith told me to fix it myself and look for higher prices in coming years. It is interesting to note the almost textbook process by which "bad" things are removed. As with our beloved books, it seems AK's and other assault rifles (even mags/drums) are well on their way to becoming unaffordable and or simply "out of stock". But that does not seem to have stopped any of us from learning from each other and improvising. I believe the same can be said for creative souls like DeathBlade. I'm sure improvising a nice drum can't be much harder than the ultra scientific mixtures and calculations you people seem to casually recite off hand with ease. :confused: Very interesting topic!

Khalnath

April 25th, 2007, 04:31 PM

You can get magazine loaders for the 10/22 where you just turn the knob to fill the magazine. Of course, if the magazine is modified at the feed end, the loader won't fit anymore either. Loading those mags without the loader IS a pain in the ass. (I have 25rd stick mags.) If you really want hicap, consider getting a 10/22 instead.

prespec

April 26th, 2007, 04:47 PM

The design looks OK, but you will have trouble with the transition from rotary travel of cartridges to vertical . They will tend to jam up at the point they change direction. You could shorten the vertical stack , and placing the spring outside the mag will save space as well as making adjustments easier to accomplish. Prepare for a lot of work, and several fabrications, then you may get it to work.........or simply build some extended clip mags out of existing ones.

amachinist

April 26th, 2007, 09:55 PM

The jamming which prespec can be overcome by utilizing a design similar to the Beta Magazine, a roller link chain style with rollers being larger than the links it will follow the curvature around the spiral path.

Khalnath

April 28th, 2007, 03:55 PM

The design looks OK, but you will have trouble with the transition from rotary travel of cartridges to vertical . They will tend to jam up at the point they change direction. The usual solution to this is to have the tower (the straight part) come off the tangentially instead, like the opening on a snail shell. That way the cartridges don't HAVE to change direction.

prespec

April 30th, 2007, 04:23 AM

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Totally agree Khalnath. This obvious solution occurred to me shortly after posting. As for the follower, it could be a pin moving in a spiral groove milled in the mag body with the spring travelling externally All could be enclosed in a dust cover, with an exposed butterfly lever to pre-tension the spring and ease loading. Not a whole lot different from an MG 34/42 drum mag. Also, if you are just intending to use the perimeter of the mag, you could make the drum smaller and fabricate a fairly powerful spring out of music wire, and house the spring internally as it would only need to function on a constant radius.

nbk2000

April 30th, 2007, 01:53 PM

It'd probably be far easier to adapt an existing .22 drum magazine to work with your gun, than to make a magazine from scratch. I've seen drums for the Ruger 10/22 for about $60.

DeathBlade

May 8th, 2007, 10:49 PM

Well I've not got much work done on the clip front I was able to get a semi working clip done, but the maxium amount of rounds I could load was 19 shells before it would jam up. The maxium I ever got to fire was 12, So it's still a learning process. But I was able to modify the rifle enough that the barrel is now easily removable and held in place with a .25" locking pin. I'll post some pictures of the progess soon.

Bugger

May 8th, 2007, 11:21 PM

I understand that machine-guns with rotary drum magazines were the "WMD of choice" of the Prohibition-era gangsters on the 1920s and early 1930s. They were frequently used for drive-by gang executions of informers and rival gangsters, spraying whole areas with bullets.

festergrump

May 9th, 2007, 02:12 AM

I don't think you'll ever get a CLIP to work with the drum MAGAZINE you're working on, DeathBlade. *SMACK!* (bad habits are hard to break, but do please try to work on them). You stomp on every firearm enthusiast who resides here's nuts every time you refer to a magazine as a clip. This forum (and all forums under the "roof" of Roguesci.org) demand attention to detail, terminology, grammar, spelling, etc. We demand people to learn from their mistakes here. You've made the mistake once already in this thread, just posts ago. Learn the difference between CLIP and MAGAZINE and commit it to memory, pretty fucking please. On topic, I think the problem you are having is with the spring binding inside the magazine housing if you've already gotten 19 to load. Now, did the 19 you loaded "dry-cycle" through the weapon it was intended for, or did they bind up upon firing? Did any of the rounds load past the elbow joint in the magazine? You can only expect answers as detailed as the input you provide... pics (real ones, from this point on... you promised) would help since we can't be there to witness the faults of your design ourselves...

IriOfTheSnow

March 2nd, 2008, 10:12 PM

If you going to make a .22 rimfire magazine, remember that the primer is located on the rim of the casing, a particularly soft casing. You should probably avoid putting any pressure on the rims (ie with thread spacers) or you might just die. Traditional rimless magazine designs won't work because you'll end up stacking the rounds rim-to-rim. If you let the magazine spring slam shut on the rounds, or if the the cycling action does so, I imagine that the results will be none to good.

neetje

March 6th, 2008, 08:45 AM

IriofTheSnow is right that the .22 lr has a soft casing, but I have yet to see the first .22 lr explode on reloading a mag. I don't think it's going to be a problem... And I don't know if you've ever watched Mythbusters on Discovery channel, they did a test with .22lr used as a fuse in a pickup truck. Although it might hurt when they explode, the bullets don't penetrate soft tissue. Without the barrel a .22 lr loses a lot of force.

funwrecker

August 21st, 2008, 12:24 PM

Another spring that may work for you comes in one of those retractable dog leashes. As for that hard transition from round cylinder to vertical, just have it transition using a longer slope ( if you get my meaning, just trying to put thought pictures into words, if this is even possible........... :) )

mackamitsu

September 3rd, 2008, 11:16 AM

You are better off modifying an existing magazine to fit your rifle. You may have to sacrifice a stick mag that is known to fit your rifle and adapt it to your .22 cal cal drum for another rifle. You will have to remove the spring and platform when you join the 2 mags, so they don't get damaged by the heat if you use a welding process. You also won't be able to make "guides" internally as they will stop the bullets from being loaded and fed properly. Also after welding you will need to smooth the beads on the inside so the platform won't bind and cause misfeed issues. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : defender blankfirer single shot .22 project A K A ZZ

May 14th, 2007, 02:20 PM

I have recently been very bored due to being a lm ost indefinably off work following a RTA so today I set about exploring the possibility if m a k i n g a s m all .22cal blank firing revolver pictured here fire live: http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 7 8 - 1 . j p g Obviously there are m easures in place to stop people doing this like a solid barrel and blocked cylinders: http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 7 9 . j p g So I removed the chamber cylinders and with the aid of my rusty drem el rem oved the barrel and the upper fram e rail (pictured): http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 8 1 - 1 . j p g I then cut 3.5ins from an old .22 air rifle barrel as a substitute a nd drilled out a cham ber for the round to sit in and a sm all slot to aid extraction The weapon has been test fired in a vice as it is not welded together yet on testing the we apon was loaded with an air rifle pellet and a .22 blank. Tests showed the pellet consistently being put though both sides of alum in ium bin and roug hly 8-10 m m into the wall behind. Better pictures and te st footage will follow as I progress further with the project apologies for the poor typing skills i am learning to type witho ut the m ovem ent of m y left hand.

JakeGallows

May 21st, 20 07, 11:1 3 PM

Sounds like a fun pro ject... W hy did you have to detach the barrel and upp er frame with the dremel? I've never seen a replica up close ... Could you perhaps use a drill press to re vitalize the barrel and cylinders? :confused:

paul88

March 12th, 2008, 09:22 PM

S o m e o n e t o l d m e that the barrels of those blank firing revolvers are cheap metal. So he m ay have taken the barrel off as to avoid a potential grenade. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Jaco Home-Built Pistol Plans a3990918

D e c e m ber 4th, 2007, 01:09 AM

Directions an d sim ple plans for constructing a single-shot, .22cal derringer with a m i n i m a l o f t o o l s a n d s u p p l i e s .

http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69679/Jaco_Derringer.pdf.html I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco. One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram e d s i n g l e shot, Western Style p istol.

a3990918

D e c e m ber 4th, 2007, 11:29 PM

Directions an d sim ple plans for constructing a single-shot, .22cal derringer with a m i n i m a l o f t o o l s a n d s u p p l i e s .

http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69679/Jaco_Derringer.pdf.html I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco. One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram e d s i n g l e shot, Western Style p istol.

As p rom ised, the other 2 pistol plans. Enjoy... Jaco _Mini_Pistol http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69685/Jaco_Mini_Pistol.pdf.html -------------Jaco _W estern_Style_Pistol http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69688/Jaco_Western_Style_Pistol.pdf.html

iHME

January 29th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 1 : 5 0 P M

H e r e ' s o n e m ore: Jaco Pioneer BP Pistol http://rapidshare.com /files/87599394/Jaco_Pio neer_BP_Pistol.pdf

iHME

February 10th, 2008, 02:15 PM

I cam e to think about this one thing, the pam phlets only nam e the dim e n s i o n s o f the raw m aterials and th e n t h e y a s s u m e that you trace the drawings from it. How do I know that the plans are at the right scale? Not even the classic one inch m a r k o n the blueprints, nothin g. Does any one have an idea about what to do? I could find my self building the .22 westerner after m y own design.

Killy

February 10th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Maybe that was the intention of author, to fool the buyer of book, while being legal, since nobody could build anything from the book.

a3990918

February 11th, 2008, 01:52 AM

Actually I think that if you check in the written material, it gives several o f the dem e n s i o n s n e e d e d . You m ay have to print out a copy of the diagram , m e a s u r e t h e d e m ension on the print and then adjust size and print anothe r copy. May take a couple of tries to get it down perfect. Th e directions for the derringer even state to cut the parts oversize so they can be hand fitted. I have not gone over these really well. If I get som e free tim e this week, I'll pull them up a nd see if I can offer anym ore assistance.

iHME

February 11th, 2008, 04:54 AM

W hy didn't I think of that! That should work. Tough practicaly there are o nly two measure told in the plans: caliber and barrel leng th.

Charles Owlen Picket

February 11th, 2008, 11:27 AM

If you are now seeing actual alterations in prod uction dim ensions or things of that nature, in works published within the last year or so, this is extrem ely im portant. Several bills have past into law that deal with the dissem ination of information that boarder on d irect censorship. Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable, a synthesis unm anageable, or related misinform ation should b e p o s t e d a n d e x a m ined thoughtfully. IF, indeed we ha v e e n t e r e d a n a g e when such censorship is progressing; tha t's a very serious thing . I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce n s o r i n g a g e n d a .

a3990918

February 11th, 2008, 08:43 PM

W hy didn't I think of that! That should work. Tough practicaly there are o nly two measure told in the plans: caliber and barrel

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter leng th.

I was rem e m bering the derringer prints. I pulled the W estern Pistol plans up today and scanned over them briefly. There was a l s o a d e m e n s i o n f o r t h e m uzzle of the barrel, "The m uzzle end of the barrel is tapered starting at the middle of the barrel leng th to a d ia. of 5/8 inch at the muzzle" not counting the crown. Also the demension for the flat on the barrel whe re it m ounts to th e fram e. "Draw file a flat on barrel 5/16 inch wide by 2-1/2 inches long to fit part 26". These plans, I think, were mo re of a g uideline for som e b o d y w i t h s o m e g u n s m ithing and/or machinist experience to interpret as you see fit, than a s cut and dried dem ensional drawings. Good luck with your build, please keep us apprised as to your progress. If you are now seeing actual alterations in prod uction dim ensions or things of that nature, in works published within the last year or so, this is extrem ely im portant. Several bills have past into law that deal with the dissem ination of information that boarder on d irect censorship. Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable, a synthesis unm anageable, or related misinform ation should b e p o s t e d a n d e x a m ined thoughtfully. IF, indeed we ha v e e n t e r e d a n a g e when such censorship is progressing; tha t's a very serious thing . I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce n s o r i n g a g e n d a . Thanks for posting th is, I agree with it. Do you have a web address for m o r e i n f o o n t h i s ? ? T h e s e p l a n s a r e 3 6 + y e a r s o l d , s o would not apply here...

iHME

February 18th, 2008, 08:42 AM

I f o u n d a o l d t h r e a d a b o u t a m ember building a Jaco westerner pistol at the Hom e G u n s m ith Forum s: The Post (http://www.homegunsm ith.com /cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=17374) You will probably need to register to view the thread. Bu t that forum is worth registering.

Bekkelund

October 22nd, 2008, 05:09 AM

Hi! Didnt Jaco sell som e drawings for Muzzleloader tools? I think I rem e m b e r a straight filing support. I would like to have a copy, m ine was lost many years and m o v i n g s a g o . Anyone know?

iHME

October 22nd, 2008, 09:34 AM

W ell, I dont have it. And I have searched for other Jaco books e arlier, did find a m e n t i o n t o a b l u e i n g b o o k b u t n o t h i n g e l s e . I'd say that the best bet would be trying to find s o m e onewho owns the book and pursue him to scan it. O r atleast take som e pictures with a camera. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : 80% firearms, winter project CosmikDebris

December 14th, 2007, 09:59 PM

I have been researching the 60/80% firearms kits for some time now, and have decided to give it a go. The project will be a government model 1911. The task seems to be pretty straightforward. The procedures as well as the pros and cons of the build will be documented and posted. Heres one link of many. http://www.diyguns.com/

jpsmith123

December 14th, 2007, 10:44 PM

I'm wondering if the slide rails can be cut (using the rail cutting tool you can buy specifically for this purpose) by using a cross-slide vise mounted to a drill press, or would you need a small milling machine?

festergrump

December 14th, 2007, 11:16 PM

That sort of thing is okay for very light milling jobs, but the bearings in a drillpress just aren't up to the continuous task of milling on a horizontal axis, especially when dealing with metals. Even a light duty, cheapo Harbor Freight mill would be worth spending a couple hundred bucks on if any work on the X and Y planes are required. The tolerances of a cheap mill are probably measured more along the lines of 1/100ths instead of 1/1000ths, though. Many light passes and a good set of calipers will be your friend, as always. Don't be frugal with the bits, either.

a3990918

December 15th, 2007, 01:30 AM

That sort of thing is okay for very light milling jobs, but the bearings in a drillpress just aren't up to the continuous task of milling on a horizontal axis, especially when dealing with metals. . Quite right. Also the spindle of most Drill presses uses a Morse Taper, friction fit tool hoolder vs a a locked down(draw bar etc) holder in a mill and/or lathe. Could create a little comotion when you put a little lateral pressure on the drill press and your razor sharp mill tool comes flying out of the spindle at a few hundred RPM and starts bouncing around your work area. :eek: If you absolutly don't want to buy a mill, I have some plans for converting a drill press to a very light duty mill. Still doesn't address the possibility of the mill flying out but will save the bearings in your DP's quill. If I can find them I'll up load to Rapidshare and post a link.

a3990918

December 15th, 2007, 03:44 AM

If you absolutly don't want to buy a mill, I have some plans for converting a drill press to a very light duty mill. Still doesn't address the possibility of the mill flying out but will save the bearings in your DP's quill. If I can find them I'll up load to Rapidshare and post a link.

Here are the plans I promised. The 1st two are for Drill Press modifications to use as a mill. The last one is an old plan for building a small, bench top horizonal mill that could easily be modified into a vertical mill. Enjoy:D

File; Building a Mill from a Drill.pdf (446 KB) http://rapidshare.de/files/38052686/Building_a_Mill_from_a_Drill.pdf.html File; PM DP Mill.pdf (488 KB) http://rapidshare.de/files/38052687/PM-DP-Mill.pdf.html File; SN22BenchMill.pdf (174 KB) http://rapidshare.de/files/38052688/SN22BenchMill.pdf.html

jpsmith123

December 15th, 2007, 11:01 AM

I'm probably going to end up getting a micro mill/drill, such as the one from harbor freight for $320. BTW, does anyone know if the "mechtech" "pistol to rifle conversion kits" need the slide rails cut in the receiver? I'm guessing they probably do but I'd like to verify it. http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html

a3990918

December 15th, 2007, 02:27 PM

I'm probably going to end up getting a micro mill/drill, such as the one from harbor freight for $320. http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html Be carefull, these little "Mini-Mills" are notorious for the column flexing(because of the thin wall tube used for the column) while under load, could easily ruin an expensive project.:( They can be made more stable by either filling the tube with cement/concrete with reinforcement or by replacing the column with a thicker wall tube. There are a couple of groups on Yahoo that deal with these. Well worth joining them before spending the money on the mill. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : material choice for gun barrel, chamber bobo

April 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM

I am finally:p going to make a gun, since I have now access to a metal workshop. In my country, firearms are haram and everything will have to be made from scratch or scrap. Besides, this is the whole goddam point, making stuff from scratch. I suppose I start out with single-shot, maybe to incorporate a magazine when it works. My caliber of choice is a .22 because those are easy to get black market, and seem to have so little force that catastrophic mishap seems unlikely. I have a limitless supply of 12mm steel bars and a few 16mm steel bars. Of course I can obtain every type of bar needed if these are not right. My questions to the more experienced tweakers and gunsmiths are: 1. which outer diameter do I take? Is is bigger = better (but heavier)? 2. is it OK to use a 6mm bore for the barrel? or should I order a 5.8mm bit? 5.7mm? 2b. is there a minimum length to the barrel? Obviously, ít will be a short barrel since I'll have to drill it. 3. how many shots can you expect from a gun like this before failure and what be failure be like? 4. do I bother with 'rifling' in a hand gun? 5. should I think about refilling .22 cartridges with stuff that is entirely home made including tips?

And for the alternative backup plan. A single shot shotgun that can be fed with cartridges that I also will have to prepare by myself. 1. Which thickness for the barrel in this case versus the diameter of the shotgun shell?

If good comes out of this, I promise some pictures and plans.

tomu

April 12th, 2008, 07:41 AM

For .22 lr cartridge any steel will do. Even cheap construction steel will have the necessary yield strength to withstand the pressure of a .22 lr. The .22 lr develops a max. pressure of about 1800 bar which translates to around 180 N/mm2 (Newton per square millimeter). Construction steel has a tensile strength above 300 N/mm2 * the yield strength is about 235 N/mm2. *( I had to make a correction here due to a mistake inmy vocabulary, I mistook yield strength for tensile strength SORRY!) To 1.: I wouldn’t go below a wall thickness of 3mm better 5 mm for a .22 lr barrel but I wouldn’t want to exceed a wall thickness of 10 mm (e.g. in a simple rifle). Of course I‘m not talking about high precision competition rifles here obviously. To 2.: The bullet diameter of a .22 lr is 5.68 mm so I would choose a 5.6 - 5.7 mm drill bit. And I would step drill my barrel, start with a 3 mm bit and after that drill with a 5 mm bit next take a 5.5 mm bit and after that I would ream it to correct size. If you could ream it to the correct diameter take a 5.6 mm drill bit and measure the bore if it is anything above 5.65 mm I would leave it below that finish with 5.7 mm bit. To 2b: The minimum length would be the cartridge length of 25 mm and you won’t gain much by exceeding a length of 450 mm. To 3.: Can’t answer that for obvious reason. To 4.: Do you have the equipment to rifle a barrel? My guess is no. We are not talking about building a competition gun here. For a self defense pistol were the shooting distance is mostly below 5 m I wouldn’t even think about to take the pain and rifle my own barrel. To 5.: Out of curiosity I once tried to reload fired .22 lr shells it is a real pain in the ***. The results are as unreliable as you can get it. I used scraped of amorces for the primer pocket and black powder as a propellant.

The pressure of a normal 12 gauge shotgun shell is about 800 bar so it’s even lower than that of a .22 lr. As above I wouldn‘t want a wall below 3 mm better 5 mm.

teshilo

April 13th, 2008, 08:31 AM

You want maximize or minimize thick walls of barrel? Maximize: for use various rounds with various action and gas pressure in barrel.. minimize: for light and disposable use...

iHME

April 13th, 2008, 12:02 PM

I read somewhere that 1,5mm would be enough for .22lr. I'm personally building a bolt-action single shot .22lr pistol of my own design. I'm going to use a 16mm high tensile bolt for the barrel and thus I'd have about 5mm wall thickness so it should be enough. And if one wants to read about good sources for suitable steels for firearms the Bill Holmes books could be a valuable resource.

Alexires

April 14th, 2008, 11:26 PM

Of course, everything here is theoretical, isn't is guys? *shakes head* Remember to write that it is theoretical, as you wouldn't want some government agency getting the wrong impression that you would think about doing something illegal, or haram as you put it, bobo.

a3990918

April 15th, 2008, 04:43 AM

To 4.: Do you have the equipment to rifle a barrel? My guess is no. We are not talking about building a competition gun here. For a self defense pistol were the shooting distance is mostly below 5 m I wouldnt even think about to take the pain and rifle my own barrel. I agree unless you just absolutly need/want to have a rifled barrel. I haven't seen them in a while but use to you could buy barrel liners for replacing the bore of a shot out barrel without having to purchase a new barrel.. Just drill the barrel out to the manufacturers spec. Apply something like a bearing adhesive to the insert and install. A little trimming up and cleaning up and viola, new rifling. Would of course also work with a smooth bore you want to rifle.

tomu

April 15th, 2008, 05:50 PM

I have a hunch that he can't lay his hands on barrel liners or barrel blanks, so it's fruitless to discuss them. He is talking about drilling his barrels from steel bars, my guess is he wouldn't do this if he could get a real barrel. Btw. barrel liners could be bought from Brownell's. May be he could get hold of an old air gun with a 5.5 mm barrel, he could make use of this. But personnely I would not want to waste it on my first try to make a gun.

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April 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM

I have a hunch that he can't lay his hands on barrel liners or barrel blanks, so it's fruitless to discuss them. Btw. barrel liners could be bought from Brownell's.

Yes, I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal, but are there restrictions on barrel liners?? Anybody?? I wouldn't think so since in and of themselves they do not costitute a firearm component. Also, there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines.

kaiserbill

April 16th, 2008, 10:56 AM

Yes, I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal, but are there restrictions on barrel liners?? Anybody?? I wouldn't think so since in and of themselves they do not costitute a firearm component. Also, there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines. There are many countries where owning any component for a firearm that you don't have a licence for is illegal. Looking at P Luty's info on expedient gun barrels made from seamless tubing, for .22 the tubing he suggests comes with a 2mm wall thickness. In fact, for the far more powerful 9mm parabellum cartridge, the tubes he recommends have wall thicknesses of between 2.5mm and 3.0mm. I have not yet built his designs so I cannot comment on safety or integrity.

kaiserbill

April 16th, 2008, 11:26 AM

Just measured the barrel thickness of a friends Luger M90 (Browning HP clone). The barrel wall thickness is 2mm.

tomu

April 16th, 2008, 01:38 PM

Yes, I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal, but are there restrictions on barrel liners?? ...

At least there are some european countries where buying barrel as well as barrel liners requires a license. Depending on the yield- and tensile strenght of the steel you could even go below a wall thickness of one millimeter for a .22 lr. But personally I wouldn't consider it as save and sane especially when more than one shot should be fired from the gun. Luty shrouds his improvised barrel with set rings (is this the right term for those rings?) to certain length.

bobo

April 16th, 2008, 07:26 PM

well first of all. thanks everyone, especially Tomu for the useful comments. My steel bars are scrap of unknown quality and as such I'd like to be safe rather than sorry with thickness. Of course, if inspection would reveal the signs of wear instead of a sudden failure then I'd feel safer playing with it. The prospect of government agents taking action against me seem slim since roguesci would need to reveal my IP and besides, I am not a terrorist just a civilian who hates the strict firearm laws. The main point is that I want to make a firearm that requires only an archaic lathe, some scrap steel and some toy parts to produce a lethal and concealable weapon. Indeed, for academic purposes only (and publication on the internet) given the fact that I am perfectly allowed to obtain a firearm for sporting purposes and match grade ammo. Legal means that police can show up at any time to check on your weapons, though, so for self-defence, legal firearms are worse than useless here (unless the whole country collapses). My plan is now to make the weapon with four main parts, pen-gun design. It should have a barrel and the part that locks with it (whatever its name is in english). These two parts are connected by thread, so to load the gun it has to be screwed on. There is a thin tipped firing pin in it and a powerful spring behind it, unsprung just like the spring in a ball-point. All these parts can be disassembled and assembled quickly. I guess I'd make a piece that is interchangeable with the barrel itself, but with a pencil tip in it, so that it looks like some heavy duty mechanic pencil:D A little tidbit of information: in the Netherlands, white powder is obtainable without the actual permit (of course an organic chemist can manufacture this and leave no trail at all but to do this right takes a lot of skill). In Germany, alarm gun ammo can be obtained there that can be used as the cap (Luty describes this process in the expedient ammo book) for caps. Professional reload materials are outside permit and OTC. Bullet tips are easily obtained. This means that clandestine ammo can be made from OTC parts, in a quality exceeding the factory quality if one is an experienced reloader.. of course the scrap parts gun would be so inaccurate that the quality of ammo is a moot point. If I go the way suggested by Tomu, I'd take a 5.7 drill bit. The 5.7 size makes it suitable for factory ammo. However, how realistic is it to manufacture our own ammo at basically ANY caliber, including the unsuspicious 6.5mm caliber (aka, a design that can de-facto be used even if the barrel has to be custom-made by a third party without any suspicions)? And, very importantly, how much bigger should the inner diameter of the barrel be than the ammo (so to fit hmmm... a luger 9mm, take 9.1mm or somthing?)

amachinist

April 22nd, 2008, 10:18 PM

A quick formula for determining the outer diameter requirements: Do=Diameter outer Di= Diameter of bore P= Pressure (ie propellant pressure) F= Safety factor (Recommend minimum of 2) Y= Yield strength Do=Di*(1+PF/Y)^0.5 Suitable materials (4140 and variants) Din 1.7223 41CrMo4 Din 1.7225 BS708 M 40 42CrMo4 BS 3111-5/1 4140 SCM 440 BS708A42 42CD4TS 708M40 2244 SCM440(H) SND7 42CD4 42CrMo4 2244 Just remember to utilize the diameter of the case for Do at the breech end.

bobo

April 23rd, 2008, 04:07 PM

ok, so far for being a beginner in a firearmophobic country... .I finished my barrel and hammerpiece with central firing pin, and then concluded that my ammo is rimfire:rolleyes:

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So... any suggestions from here on? Do I keep on going, and construct some centerfire .22 ammo or is it better to change the relative position of barrel and hammerpiece/pin and go for rimfire?

tomu

April 24th, 2008, 11:20 AM

Well bobo shit happens I guess. What is the easier way? Do just have just finished drilling and chambering the barrel but haven't it fixed to the gun frame so my guess is it would be easier to fix the relative position. If you make alterations in the ammo, you have do do this also in the future, which is a question of how often you would like to fire the gun.

bobo

April 26th, 2008, 07:48 PM

It is a screw thread chambering right now. This would work for centerfire .22, but they are an oddity so it seems. Rimfire make this design a lot more difficult because the position of the pin hole is not central and can be in any position. I do not see a practical way to initiate rimfire ammo using a spring with this thing. This means I need to refill the rimfire cases and turn them into .22 centerfire (nearly impossible to do this right, so it will be shabby ammo or worse) or abandon the .22 caliber.

tomu

April 28th, 2008, 06:48 AM

bobo would you please explain what do you mean by "screw threat chambering"? And what is the problem with rimfire ammo? Maybe do a little sketch (free hand) post it somewhere to be downloaded and describe your problem with the spring and the firing pin.

bobo

April 28th, 2008, 08:11 PM

screw thread: M12 thread on the "barrel". M12 thread cut into the "block". Like a hollow bolt and nut with a small hole in it. [edit: aw hell, that ascii drawing was absolutely garbled after submitting, removed it] The bullet (not drawn) will be squeezed in between tightly if screwed on. A firing pin on a metal bar with a powerful spring behind it is triggered ball point style. This way, the contraption is single shot, will not be reloading quickly but it is an object of minimal size consisting of four parts. The bullet will absolutely not fire its case backwards. This is thus an utterly primitive thing, nothing to be proud of even once it succeeds but it'll serve for a useful lesson in improvising firearms and testing ammo.

tomu

April 29th, 2008, 07:07 AM

Ahh... I thought at first you hd cut the chamber with a tap. Anyway why don't you use an offset firing pin? Just a steel rod where the firing pin is excentrically fitted to it. Or if the steel rod is too small a kind of fork with two prongs fitted to the small steel rod.

bobo

April 30th, 2008, 10:50 AM

Yes, I'll have to drill one excentrically. The device will be a little more awkward (even more awkward) but this seems like the best way to adapt to rimfire.

tomu

May 3rd, 2008, 09:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T9UDasLeiA Maybe this video of a crude made .22 single shot tilting breech pistol is of interest to you.

wolfy9005

May 24th, 2008, 11:17 AM

just a thought, but for the barrel you could import a short section of seamless hydraulic tubing. it would be listed as hydraulic tubing, and so shouldnt be illegal. maybe ring up a few companies and ask for aome "sample offcuts" of the required I.D, then go from there. even if you only got a 7-8" 5.5mm I.D tube, atleast its better then a bolt of unknown consistency. also, it would simplify manufacture. just ask and say you are making a science project for your son(or yourself if your young enough) which involves making a hydraulic cylinder. just a thought. most companies will supply you happily, as it usually just goes in the bin anyway.

sbovisjb1

May 24th, 2008, 01:07 PM

It is suggested to go with stainless steel, as it has higher resistance to elements and when you fire, it doesn't bend and warp as much, that said its MUCH more difficult to drill, ream and rifle.

Setharier

October 21st, 2008, 08:39 PM

Talking about barrel making in general. I was hypothesizing using a thin steel pipe 1mm rim strength, rifled, to being rolled on with several dozen, even couple of hundred times with finest mesh glass fiber one can get. You heard correctly. They used this stuff in a shotgun barrel in the 70's, but people didn't trust it and it didn't sold althrough was referred being even many times stronger than it's steely counterpart. I have been planning of attempting making out such a construction when I have more time and equipment to complete it. I found airsoft barrels being readily capable of discharging 22LR cartridge through plank without any breakage or expansion in the discharging end, but no one can speak of accuracy: the bullet can be dropped through due to the wrong caliber ratio - .22 being 5.7mm and AS barrel 6mm min. One could purchase 9mm innerdim. pipe and roll 300 layers fine mesh glass fibre in resin bath. In the chamber end one would roll twice as much, and even, at least partially, use the 9mm shell or a model made of it forming the chamber. I bet this is worth of testing.

kaiserbill

October 22nd, 2008, 08:45 AM

Certainly sounds like it warrants further investigation. De Marco's shoulder launcher utilized PVC pipe strengthened with layers of glass fibre as well, albeit this was a recoiless launcher and thus subject to far lower pressures. A shotgun would be much Setharier, do you recall the make of the 1970's shotgun you mention that utilized the external glass fibre strengthener?

Setharier

November 28th, 2008, 09:57 AM

I don't remember just now on what decade that shotgun was actually manufactured but it had glass fibre barrel and said it withstanded several times the pressure of what similar steel barrel would have done. About the barrels and material once again. There has been discussion of less powerful, mostly .22cal barrels. How about making 308Win machine gun barrel? The material choice seems absolutely more important on this. The cartridge produces 62,000 psi (430 MPa) or nearly 4300 bars of pressure. "Rifle barrels are usually made from steel alloys called ordinance steel, nickel steel, chrome-molybdenum steel, or stainless steel, depending upon the requirements of the

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter cartridge for which they are chambered."

I always tought stainless steel is very soft metal, but also heard that several rifle barrels are actually made out of it. Purchasing an 1" rod two feet long of stainless and then lathing it does not sound impossible nor too expensive in any mean.

tomu

November 28th, 2008, 05:07 PM

...snip I always tought stainless steel is very soft metal, but also heard that several rifle barrels are actually made out of it. snip... A barrel should be tough and soft, usually well below 30° on the HRC scale to withstand the high dynamic stresses. A 42CrMo4 steel is quite suitable for a highpower barrel. Also most stainless steels will be ok.

Setharier

November 28th, 2008, 09:51 PM

How comes the rifling? I quickly hypothethized using two pillars or other solid mass elements, car jacks and a hardened-steel rifling rod. The jacks easily push several tons and enable the rifling device to be pushed through the barrel. Using the deactivated barrel unit would be laziest and easiest, but potentially dangerous way since the chamber has been drilled and tap pushed through it, severely weakening it. Anyway it could be drilled/slammed away and reinforce-mass-welded and I bet it would withstand about enough to make the gun act repeatingly.

tomu

December 1st, 2008, 01:56 PM

How comes the rifling? ...snip Using the deactivated barrel unit would be laziest and easiest,...snip Your best choice is cut rifling somewhere on this forum is a threat about a video of Guy Lautards rifling machine. Making a rifling button for button rifling will be impossible without a toolmakers knowledge/skill and workshop. There are some deactivated barrels on the market where only the chamber is welded shut and some short distance forward the chamber are some holes drilled through. If cut off the remainder of the barrel can be rechambered.

Kaydon

December 2nd, 2008, 10:50 PM

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks6/rifle/index.html I have not been able to find a copy floating about the web. It'd be a good find if someone did. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_47/ai_79586229 http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm Material info http://ammtiac.alionscience.com/pdf/AMPQ8_4ART08.pdf http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0774828 vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : Rebarreling the SKS file

May 19th, 2008, 12:18 AM

I had an idea based on something I saw on Weaponeer not long ago. It will remain theoretical only until I can afford to do this. Basically taking an SKS and rebarreling it to a better caliber.

Now the SKS is a very good rifle, sturdy and reasonably accurate. It's only major drawbacks are low mag capacity(easily remedied with a dremel and other tools to make it work with AK mags) and poor caliber. 7.62x39mm is not a very good performer. It's mediocre in all aspects. Some calibers(like 6.5 Grendel) seem like they'd be a much better thing for it. Most of the accuracy problems and limited range are from the caliber the SKS uses. So why not replace the barrel with one of a better caliber and modify the mag slightly to accommodate the slightly longer rounds?

On the Yugo SKS, the barrel is threaded in and has flats on it for a wrench. There are companies out there that produce custom 6.5 Grendel barrels. Someone with a lathe could do the same thing from a barrel blank. It's just a matter of copying the barrel, or possibly changing the length of it for better performance. The magazine is just a hair too short, but that can be changed by either making a new one or bending the front part of it out(I think). The spring in the gas system might need to be changed out as well, but I'm not sure.

What do y'all think?

tomu

May 19th, 2008, 04:43 AM

Just sapping the barrel will not do the trick, there have to be changes made to the system especially the bolt (boltface, exctractor, bolt travel distance). E. g. the rim diameter of the 6.5 Grendel is smaller than that of the 7.62x39 and it's overall lenght is 1.7 mm longer.

file

May 19th, 2008, 04:57 AM

I didn't know if the bolt face would have had to be modified. I know about the overall length, that's why the mag needs to be modified. Aside from that, there is enough space in the stroke of the action to accommodate it. The only major issue is the bolt face. I know there have been rebarrelings in 5.56, that required a new bolt(obviously) and those function pretty well.

486

May 19th, 2008, 09:16 AM

.50 Beowulf has the same rim size as 7.62x39, and with slight magazine modifications it should work, or make an AR-15 magazine conversion because the standard magazine would only hold 2-3 rounds. You will also need to mess with the gas port size, but that is relatively easy. It seems the OAL [over all length] is just fine, at 2.19 for 7.62x39, and 2.110 [for most loads] for the .50 Beowulf.

Hitech_Hillbilly

May 19th, 2008, 03:01 PM

File, How is the 7.62x39 "mediocre in all aspects"? It is currently the most widely used cartridge in the world, and has one of the better reputations of in use calibers. Are you basing your opinion off of it's effectiveness against personal armor? Off of reliability as a man stopping round? It's reliability? While I am all for finding a better round, not sure if I would be worried about the 7.62x39. i would be more interested in switching calibers if I was shooting a 5.56 or similar varmint type round. The SKS also does not lend itself to a caliber change as readily as some other platforms. Have you thought of trying an AR-15 style rifle, or maybe going for an AK-74 style if you prefer that type of platform. Not saying you can't re-caliber, but you need to take the position and size of the gas port into account on the SKS. You may end up having to machine several parts from scratch to get something like what you describe to work.

file

May 20th, 2008, 01:39 AM

The 7.62x39 is only used by the Czech Republic anymore if I remember right(in their VZ-58 rifle). It does not lend itself well to accuracy due to it's rainbow trajectory. It is also not a very good manstopper compared to other modern rounds(it does not tumble, expand or fragment in the body). It pales in comparison(in man stopping ability and raw tissue damage) to the 5.56 or the 5.45. The SKS does not lend itself as easily to caliber change as the AR platform, but I have a "thing" for it. It is one of the few rifles out there that "fits me". It's also cheap compared to the AR or even the AK(the days of the 380$ AK are gone). 486 has a good idea though. If the pressures aren't too much for the system to handle, .50 Beowulf might be worth considering. The purpose for such a project is to make the SKS better suited to modern use.

tomu

May 20th, 2008, 05:01 AM

As you can see the extractor of the SKS is a semi circle enveloping the cartridge rim, which fascilitates a secure grip as well as guidance of the cartrodge rim. Unfortunately the cartridge rim of the 7.62x39 is 11.30 mm and the rim of the 6.5 Grendel is 11.20 mm. This might very well lead to extraction problems, especially with semiautomatic fire. I don't have access to SKS right now, but you might get away with just using a modified extractor as if IIRC the bolt face itself is plane. It might be even as simple as soldering a steel shim to the curvature of the extractor. Anway the bolt of the SKS is a straightforward milling job so any good machinist with a mill can duplicate one.

file

May 20th, 2008, 05:55 AM

Even without a mill(I have none), an SKS bolt wouldn't be hard to fab. I think that it might be possible to fabricate a new extractor or mod the original one. As was mentioned before about the .50 beowulf, I did some looking up and it's rim is supposed to be compatible with both the 6.5 Grendel and the 7.62x39, so maybe it won't be as much of a problem for the 6.5 to extract. It's something that would be worth seeing how good a grip it gets is. Unfortunately I do not have a piece of 6.5 brass or I'd see right now.

Hitech_Hillbilly

May 20th, 2008, 10:43 AM

File, Hate to disagree, but the 5.56 is not known as a manstopper round. That is why SOCOM is helped in the development of the 6.8 SPC and tried to get it approved. I happen to work with someone who just got back from Iraq, and has also seen combat in Bosnia, and he said the M14 in 7.62x51 is making a dramatic comeback due to it's increased stopping power. When he got back from Iraq, he sold his AR-15 and bought a Springfield M1A. And with the AK-47 being the most widely used Assault rifle in the world (still) I don't believe that your assertion that only the Czech still use it is correct.

file

May 20th, 2008, 11:10 AM

Within it's practical range, the 5.56 is extremely effective. It's problem is that when fired from short barrels it is not able to fragment beyond short ranges. When that happens, it is nothing but an ice pick. You can't expect such a small and light round to be effective when fired from a 11" or 14" barrel. All the nations which employed the 7.62x39, aside from the Czech Republic(maybe Slovakia, but I doubt it) have switched to superior rounds like 5.45. Even China has a new round. The AKM-47 is so popular because the Russkies made a ton of them and sold off most of what they had when they switched to the AKM-74. That means that there are a lot of guns out there which are cheap enough for the dirt poor guerrillas of X country to purchase. But let's not get into a caliber pissing match, because the 7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45 debate has been going on for decades and will go on until they no longer exist.

Hitech_Hillbilly

May 21st, 2008, 11:27 AM

File, I agree, let's not get into a caliber pissing match. I happen to own rifles in both calibers (AR-15, SKS, and AK-47) and believe each to have it's own pros and cons. But my point is that you also need to provide examples for statements when you make such broad statements as "mediocre in all aspects". Such overly broad statements have no place on a Science based board such as this without any supporting evidence. How is it mediocre? Do people not die when they are shot with it? Is it notorious for jamming? Is it widely considered inaccurate? If it is mediocre because it is not the main cartridge in official use by it's country of origin, does that also make the same true of the 30-06 and .308? If you would put forth some type of arguable facts, maybe you could support such a conclusion, but for now, you are just appearing uninformed. Let's change the target of your scorn to something else for a moment. Let's say you had stated that you wanted to learn to make Semtex because C4 is mediocre in all aspects. I'm sure several members of this

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board would ask you what you based that conclusion on. Now, would I agree that each of the aforementioned explosives has it's own properties which would cause some to prefer one over the other? Of course. But both will blow the shit out of something, so neither are ineffectual nor mediocre. If you would please list what about the 7.62 round causes it to be mediocre in your opinion, maybe I could see from what you are basing your opinion. And that's not the only problem with your original post. Let's take a look at the basic premise of your original post. You want to re-caliber a SKS. Why? It's current caliber is "mediocre" and "not a good performer". So without more info, I have to speculate that the basis in your logic is flawed. The SKS is a 60+ year old design. It utilizes a tilt bolt locking design, which is not as secure as breach lug locking. You offer no formula or postulates on what cartridge to use, or what the pressures the SKS design is capable of handling. I'm sure it would be "kewl" to mount an Abrams 120 mm main gun on a WWII era Sherman tank, but if you don't understand the pressures and forces involved, you're going to end up destroying something other than the intended target. Same scenario here. What is the pressure curve of the .50 Beowulf? While I do believe that the action of an SKS could handle that cartridge, what adjustments need to be made to the gas system? While it is possible to re-barrel or recaliber the Simonov design, parts are not in abundance. How much will it cost to do the work you are talking about? Would it be a better decision financially to make some other type of weapon for which the caliber you want is already designed for? Would it be easier from an engineering standpoint to modify a different base weapon? Most improvised weapons are made for low pressure calibers. If they call for high pressure calibers, they are normally some type of single shot design. The mathematics for semi-auto weapon systems are complex. Of the equation E = 1/2mv2 for kinetic energy, only about 30% of the energy gets transfered to the actual bullet. Almost 20% of the energy gets transfered to gas pressure, with the rest going to heat (case, barrel, gas, and bullet). And this total energy is not transfered in a flat line. Each caliber and powder generate their own energy curve. And those curves can change based on cartridge material and bullet weight. And that is just some of the variables. Just because the forum has added a firearms section doesn't mean that it's high standards are completely thrown out the window. Provide some basis for your arguments, some facts, or at least some arguable conclusions. Most of your other posts do include such facts, plus some logical deductions. All I'm asking is that you do a little research and come up with some supportable reasons for your postulate. This is a Science based forum (whether that be chemistry, mechanical, geopolitical, etc), after all.

file

May 21st, 2008, 03:38 PM

I did do some looking into the cost of such a build. It comes out to 500$ for the 6.5. I haven't run the costs of doing one in .50 Beowulf yet though. That would put the gun, complete, at just under what a cheap AR would cost. As for dealing with chamber pressure, I was unable to find the max pressure of the .50, but for 6.5 it's 50,000 psi, which puts it very close to the 7.62x39. The maximum load pressure is 52,080. So it should be more than able to handle the pressure given that most loads for the calibers are lower than that max. Why do I feel that the 7.62x39 is mediocre? It does not fragment, expand or tumble(only FMJ will be considered in this example, because it's obvious what soft point and hollow point will do) while inside the body. It does not create a large permanent or temporary cavity compared to other rounds. The round also tends to overpenetrate unless used with HP or SP. It's saving grace is that it feeds very well and extracts very well due to it's case design. Yes, such a round can blow the shit out of someone. But other calibers can do it better(which is my premise for such a build).

Hitech_Hillbilly

May 21st, 2008, 04:07 PM

File, Thank you. With that, I can at least see what you are basing your opinion off of. While I don't believe I necessarily agree with all of your conclusions on the various rounds, we can agree to disagree. Your thought process is defined and will allow others to make informed judgments based off of the basis for your conclusion. Your cost estimate appears to be in line with what a competent gunsmith or machinist would charge you, plus cost of materials, and doing some of the work yourself. I agree with your assessment that you are approaching a low end AR-15 variant. It may be easier in the long run to just purchase a low end AR already in the caliber you want if you are willing to settle for a 5.56 or 6.8 SPC. The 6.5 Grendel or .50 Beowulf may be cheaper to do yourself. From what I've seen, these calibers are rather expensive no matter which route you take.

file

May 22nd, 2008, 04:02 AM

It would be least expensive to rebarrel an SKS and that would also be turning an obsolete weapon into a fairly effective DM rifle(if done in 6.5). Not perfect, but passable. One of the things that would be necessary is a modified mag. Right now I'm thinking of a modified tapco 20 rounder adapted to fit. It may be necessary to fabricate an entirely new magazine, but I'd avoid that if possible. However, if it is necessary to do, it would be much better to make one of a design similar to that of the original mag. It's feeding system is very well suited to being self-contained and fixed in place but is also very reliable. It would have to be slightly longer and deeper with a slightly different follower. It might be possible to just bend the original mag, but that would give me less than ten rounds per. This will all have to wait until I have the money to afford the build though.

486

May 22nd, 2008, 09:33 AM

You could get an ak mag adapter and remove enough material from that to fit a ar mag in. Then get a 6.5 ar mag [in steel] and braze it into the adapter at the proper height for reliable feeding, braze it with the parts out, and reassemble when cool. It would still be removable [if you get the removable adapter/magazine.

file

May 23rd, 2008, 06:31 PM

To my knowledge fitting an AK or AR mag would require filing/milling to the receiver(it is possible, just a lot of work). Fitting an AR mag might actually be possible with a little less filing/milling than an AK mag though. I'm not exactly sure.

486

May 24th, 2008, 01:04 AM

They make these detachable mags for the SKS, they seem to be an AK mag with an adapter welded on. They use the original mag pivot pin as a front catch and the "floorplate" release as the rear catch to hold the magazine in a [somewhat] explanatory picture (http://www.surplusbunker.com/images/MAGSKS20BLACK.JPG) of a molded plastic one. So I assume since the AR magazines don't seem much bigger, you just need to take out the whole internal mag to get it to fit. My dad is in a different country so I can't see if it would fit right now, but in a few weeks I could test it out. Also for some sort of size comparison [maybe useful] 7.62x39 fits in AR mags, just only 5 rounds or so because of the extreme case taper, and I have heard of people getting .223 in AK mags.

file

May 24th, 2008, 01:41 AM

To get an AK mag to fit, you have to change the cut in the receiver for the mag to fit, because it is tapered in the front on the SKS(not actually too different than the low cap mags really) and straight on the AK. I have mine stripped and am looking at it right now. Luckily the actual hole seems to be large enough to fit the rounds.

TreverSlyFox

May 24th, 2008, 11:21 AM

Well, trying to make an SKS into an SKS M or D model (Detachable AK47 magazines) has been done before, though none has resulted in a satisfactory or safe modification. The M & D model DO NOT have the same receiver, yes it looks the same but it's NOT. The receiver walls of the M & D model are thicker to accommodate the AK Magazine. Butchered SKS receivers, even done by a competent machinist wind up being VERY THIN especially in the front where the original SKS magazine tapers. And this is where the receiver cracks and I've seen two that have done so after being modified to take AK mags. Granted I've only seen two SKS's modified like this but that pretty much follows the posts on other boards where this has been discussed and done. As far as the FMJ Military 7.62x39 not being an effective round I have a few friends whose names are on a wall in Washington DC that would disagree with you if they were still alive. And when they took our M-14's away and gave us M-16's mine lasted less than 2 weeks and I finished my tour with an SKS, which accounted for 14 of 17 confirmed kills, none with the M-16 that I know of. Also don't forget gas operated semi-autos work on "Peak Gas Pressure" which is NOT the same as Muzzle Velocity, but has to do with the "speed" of the powder burn. So unless your magick bullet has the same "burn" your going to be modifying the fixed gas system (unless your using a Yugo) to get the rifle to function properly without FTF or FTE problems, or battering the rifle apart with over pressure. Either way, it's been tried before, it didn't work. But hey, good luck to you, maybe you'll be the lucky one.

486

May 24th, 2008, 11:59 AM

So unless your magick bullet has the same "burn" your going to be modifying the fixed gas system (unless your using a Yugo) to get the rifle to function properly without FTF or FTE problems, or battering the rifle apart with over pressure.

The gas port has to be re-drilled anyways for the new barrel for 6.5, besides the gas port adjustment should be pretty easy.

file

May 24th, 2008, 01:03 PM

As stated by 486, the gas port adjustment should be pretty easy. The valve comes right out(on the Yugo model, which is what I stated I'd be using) and can be tinkered with as needed. Obviously starting small and going larger as needed to get it to feed and eject right. Actual pressure curve charts would be best, but I haven't been able to find them. Trevor, what nationality were the SKS's you've seen fail due to being butchered? The Yugo ones are already beefier than the regular ones, which is why I mentioned going with those in my first post. I also would rather not have to modify the receiver, hence my being big on modifying or copying the original mag design. I'm not here to start a caliber pissing match either.

TreverSlyFox

May 25th, 2008, 08:07 AM

File' Of the two I saw one was a Chinese Mil-Surp and the other was a Norinco, (Norinco's aren't Mil-Surp but they are Mil Spec). I've never read anyone trying to modify a Yugo as yet. Sorry I missed the part in you post about using a Yugo, my mistake. I've never looked over a Yugo closely, mostly because I never cared for their un-chromed barrel and chamber and the funky grenade launcher on them.

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Sorry if I came off as wanting to start a pissing match on 7.62x39. It's just that there is so much BS put out about the round by people that have never used the round in combat. I have and know what it will do within it's design parameters as a Military round coupled with a totally reliable weapon system like the SKS or AK-47. The terminal ballistics were greatly improved by the Russians with the 8M1 - 8M3 "effect" bullet but came at the time 7.62x39 was being phased out and the 5.45 was being brought in service so it was never fielded as a service round. Now it's only available in Silver Bear Ammo, if you can find it. I stashed away 5,000 rounds of it when it was $85 a 1,000 rnd case several years ago, now if it can be found it's well over $200 a case. I haven't seen any for sale in a year or more. I have the feeling it's gone the way just as the Chinese steel core did, never to be seen again. I can understand the want of a little more power in a carbine size action, but then I always look at it from a Military stand point. Cost of ammo, availability or if there is already a Military weapon that already achieves the same thing. Which is probably why out of 15 or so weapons I own 10 or 12 are Military and the first ones I'd grab in an emergency. Each one is set up with web gear and a full combat load out of ammo for those Just-in-Case times. Sorry if I come off rough at times, I'm an old fart and pretty set in my ways and thinking at 60.

file

May 25th, 2008, 08:40 AM

No offense taken. The Yugo guns are considerably beefed up compared to their Russian or Chinese counterparts. That's because Yugoslavian ammunition was hotter than other standard production ammo. The only AK mag fed modified ones I've seen are Yugos(because they're the cheapest right now). I haven't been able to find any of the 8M3 stuff, wish I could though. Sounds pretty good if extremely rare. The primary desire for having the 6.5 would be to give the SKS more legs as well as more power. 6.5 Grendel out of a 20" barrel is good out a very long ways(I forget exactly how far, but out of a 24 it's good past 1000 yards). That coupled with a very good custom barrel would be able to turn the SKS into a modern battle rifle or possibly DM rifle. The SKS has potential for excellence, you have probably seen that yourself, it just needs to have that fulfilled. To my knowledge, there are few firearms out there in that caliber and those that are out there are expensive. Ammo cost for Wolf Gold(not the best, but still passable) isn't too much more than 7.62x39 per case. Once I get into handloading, that will drop costs even more, especially considering that 6.5x39 can be formed from 7.62x39 brass cases.

TreverSlyFox

May 26th, 2008, 09:05 PM

File, Your project really piqued my interest and I spent a few hours checking out the 6.5mm Grendel on the web. While the project seems VERY doable in a Yugo SKS there does seem to be a couple problems in the ammo department. True 6.5mm Grendel is a straight walled case, while 7.62x39mm is a tapered wall case. And to reform 7.62x39mm into 6.5mm Grendel cases is quite a project as a bulge will form just below the shoulder of the 7.62x39mm c ase when full length resized. While this can be dealt w it h by turning, its one more step added to the process. Plus the new formed case has to be fire formed as a final step and you still dont have a True 6.5mm Grendel case. The 6.5mm Grendel takes a S m all Rifle Primer while the 7.62x39m m takes a Large Rifle Primer which does and will affect performance which seems to be the large rifle primer blowing powder and bullet down the bore before the powder ignites. Why this happens w it h a straight walled case and not to a tapered w all case is beyond me. So you have a choice to make before you chamber the new barrel. Either chamber it for 6.5mm Grendel or chamber it for 6.5x39m m . The 6.5x39m m is just a necked down 7.62x39m m case and since it s ju st necked down you dont have the problems with full lengt h resizing and the subsequent bulge, turning and fire for ming in trying to go to a str aight w alled Grendel case. The 6.5x39m m suffers a little in the velocity department compared to the true Grendel, but were talking less than 100fps out of a 24 barrel so I dont see it as a real problem. If you decide to go the true Grendel way youre looking at buying cases from Alexander Arms or Lapua. Though the Lapua is considered a better case the price difference is about $28 per one hundred cases, AA is about $64 per 100 and Lapua runs about $92 per 100. If it were me I think Id just suck up the 100fps velocity difference and go with the 6.5x39m m and neck down 7.62x39m m cases. I think youd have fewer problems in feeding; no change to the magazine, st ill feed it from str ipper clips and cheap but tough Military cases to work from. While youll never have a true MBR since youre not firing a full size military cartridge, I think youd have a kick ass DMR in a carbine size package with a good set of optics. Midway sells the Choate Weaver-Style Scope Mount for the SKS (item #435-151) though youll have to dr ill and tap the r eceiver for it. But it appears t o be a rock solid steel mount that w ont int erfere w it h disassembly and cleaning from what I can see of it. Midway has it on sale right now at $30 rather than the normal $38.99, so you may want to look int o it. With a set of quick change rings you could pop off the scope if it took a dump and be back to the original iron sights which you cant do with a scout mount and a LER scope. Though this has disadvantages also. The scope mount will kill the use of stripper clips for reload. Though you c ould turn the mount around so it off set to the left and retain feeding from stripper clips and add a cheek pad t o the stock. Same thing they did with the M1 Gar and M odel C sniper rifle and having the benefit of ret aining the use of t he Iron sights without removing the scope. While I doubt youll get the 1.198 group at 600 yards the true Grendel gets with a modified semi-auto SKS. I dont see any reason you couldnt get say 3 MOA at 600 yards which should put you into Minute-of-Bad-Guy out to 900 1000 yards with 6.5x39m m . O ver all from the litt le investigation Ive done the project seems doable and kick ass if you stay in the 6.5x39m m and not try to go for a true 6.5mm Grendel package. The change over to AK-47 mags would be dependent on if the Yugo can handle the cuts to the receiver wall without compromising the strength of the receiver. While this would eliminate the need to feed it from stripper clips and an "off set" scope. It will also not allow you to get as close to the ground in the prone position with a 30 or 40 round mag sticking out the bottom of the rifle. Gain some, lose some so you have to choose what you want and how you'll use the rifle to make the choice. No matter what you choose please keep us updated on the project I'm very interested in how it turns out.

file

May 26th, 2008, 10:39 PM

Thanks for the suggestion of 6.5x39mm and just using that. As far as a scope mount, if it interferes with stripper clips isn't much of an issue if it's a DM rifle but it would be a plus. I remember seeing a mount out there that was a "reproduction" of the issue scope mount for it(which accommodated the PU scope and PSOP scope), and those did allow for stripper clip use. 6.5x39 is definitely the way to go in the price area, I can't afford to feed something that is $92 a case but I should be able to afford to neck down 7.62 brass. This is a long term project. It'll be a while before I save up enough to start the build. Should turn out well though. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : .22LR magazine DIY emòtènculo

May 21st, 20 08, 11:3 3 AM

I'm looking for dim e n t i o n s a b o u t a . 2 2 L R m a g a z i n e ( A R - 7 l i k e ) . A n y o n e c a n h e l p m e ? T h a n k s

tomu

May 21st, 20 08, 03:2 4 PM

Search for "Bill Holm e s , H o m e W o r k s h o p G u n s f o r D e f e n s e a n d R e s i s t a n c e : T h e . 2 2 M a c h i n e P i s t o l " s c a n n e d c o p i e s a r e floating around.

emòtènculo

May 22nd, 2008, 02:23 AM

I read the book and the dimentions Holmes gives in it are ... let's say ... they could be a little better. I've com p a r e d t h e m w i t h a . 2 2 L R d u m m y and the length is OK, BUT they are too large.

file

May 22nd, 2008, 03:48 AM

Y o u r b e s t b e t i s t o m a k e a c a r d b o a r d m ockup first of whatever it is you do. T h e A R - 7 ' s m ag isn't the best and is responsible for m ost of it's reliability problem s, But give it a shot anyway and see.

emòtènculo

May 22nd, 2008, 06:36 AM

I know that the m ain feed pro blem in this rifle is a mag azine issue, that's why I want to m a k e t h e m a g a z i n e s b y m y s e l f , b u t I m iss how wid e t h e y s h o u l b e .

tomu

May 22nd, 2008, 09:44 AM

T h e b a s e d i a m e t e r o f a . 2 2 l r i s 7 . 0 6 m m , s o m a k e i t a t least 7.2 and m ax. 7.3 m m inside. For th e l e n g t h g o f o r a b o u t 2 5 . 6 0 m m t o a b o u t 2 5 . 7 0 m m , overall length of the .22 lr is 25.40 mm . J u s t b e n d a s m all proto type and feel how cartridg e s f e e d .

emòtènculo

May 23rd, 2008, 02:55 AM

T h e b a s e d i a m e t e r o f a . 2 2 l r i s 7 . 0 6 m m , s o m a k e i t a t least 7.2 and m ax. 7.3 m m inside. For th e l e n g t h g o f o r a b o u t 2 5 . 6 0 m m t o a b o u t 2 5 . 7 0 m m , overall length of the .22 lr is 25.40 mm . J u s t b e n d a s m all proto type and feel how cartridg e s f e e d . Thank you. I'll try with these measures. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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August 4th, 2008, 05:06 AM

H e l l o e v e r y o n e , a s I s e a r c h e d s o m e forums it appears that m any people have the civilian version of this a ssault rifle (for s o m e r e a s o n c a l l e d s u b m a c h i n e g u n - " s a m o p a l") , but I haven't find any way to return it to its original look (well I don't have any firearms) http://vz58.webpark.cz/obrazky/58popis.jpg (its schem e , but in czech). I read that it is semi-autom a t i z e d thanks to a block of iron welded into place of auto parts. This is a czech site with Sa-58 parts I found http:// www.zelenysport.cz/scripts/zbozi.php?KID=14 , are any of them usable? Thanks for your tim e ++++++++++++++ Don't forget to capitalize the letter "I" when referring to yourself - The_Duke

486

August 6th, 2008, 04:25 AM

There is a hole next to the ejector in the upper receiver, which has a sear in it that is needed for F/A operation [also for safe s e m i-auto] in the usa it is rem oved. It m ay be left in in European areas though. The selector for full auto has 2 notches in it, t h e s e m i one has one. I can't find a picture now. If you have the safety sear then you only need the full auto selector, and can create one by cutting a new [second] notch in it. Searching for a FAL, or L1A1 would net tons more results for you.

486

August 7th, 2008, 09:40 AM

Since I have no edit button, disregard the above post, you said VZ 58 and SA-58, i assum ed they were interchangeable and only went from m e m ory. O ne is a AK variant, the other a FAL variant. The SA-58 parts won't fit on your gun.

iHME

August 8th, 2008, 08:48 AM

V Z 5 8 i s I I R C a c o m p letely different gun com p a r e d t o a k - 4 7 , t h e y l o o k t h e s a m e b u t t h e v z 5 8 m a g s d o n ' t f i t t h e a k a n d v i s e versa. The VZ 58 has its own mechanism thats nothing like AK.

festergrump

August 8th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Thats' not to m ention that the receivers are m achined from a chunk of steel rather than a stam p e d p i e c e o f sheetm etal like the AKM. Whole different ball of wax, which makes it m uch m ore intense of a 'from scratch' build of the receiver. VZ receivers can be bought (if you're willing to register it) but the price is much higher than that of an AKM reciever blank. (VZ kits are still very cheap, however, and readily available). One thing that I always thought was ra ther strange is th at the VZ is allowed in Canuckistan while the AKM is banned, though they outwardly look very similar. :confused: vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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October 2nd, 2008, 04:06 PM

On the " Hyp othetically how can som eone with lim i t e d t o o l s m a k e a m munition fro m scratch?" thread the idea of a m a n u a l l y rotated revolver cam e u p . W ell I drew up som e crude prints for it. They are m ainly to show the idea . I e n c o u r a g e m e m b e r s t o m a k e better ones. The idea is to create a sim p l e m ulti sh ot capab le firearm. If one has a very good drill press the cylinder could be bored with it. I recomm end studying JACO Designs, they have very sim ple trig ger system s. And they cou l d b e a d a p t e d t o f i t o u r n e e d s . Now that I have the thread started I'll draw som e prints. P l e a se don't crucify m e for m y bad dra wings. I'm no graphic artist. :o

tomu

October 4th, 2008, 09:05 PM

Actually, a very good idea. A quite simple design with a the neccassary cylinder locking/indexing m echanism under the barre l. Very sim ple SA-Trigger. If you are carefully in laying out the cylinder bo rings/cham bers this could be easily done with basic tools. IIR C there were som e pictures of a hom e m a d e sim ple handturned revolver like this m a d e b y a r u s s i a n g u y s o m e where on the web, unfortunately I can't find the link nor the photos on my PC.

a3990918

October 8th, 2008, 07:27 PM

.

Here is a plan from Paladin Press for a revolver-knife that is, I believe, basically the sam e as you are describing. The cylinder is ro tated by hand after each shot and is of a single action design. Of course this could be m odified to a standard h a n d g u n configuration .

http://rapidshare.com /files/152189745/ebook_-_Paladin_Press_Series_on_Improvised_Firearms_-_The_Revolver_Kn ife.pdf No Pass:

.

Hirudinea

October 8th, 2008, 08:22 PM

If your want to m ake a revolver with sim ple too ls do you think it would be possible to adapt a good quality "Cap Pistol" revo lver to fire low po wer rounds, repla ce the barrel and the cylinder with a barrel and cylin der that can take the pressure, an d d e s i g n s o m t h i n g t o k e e p t h e r o u n d s i n t h e c h a m ber, and the trigger and rotary m e c h a n i s m from the cap pistol MIGHT be sufficent to work as a real gun. (Or it might blow your hand off, but either way it would do som thing you'ed never forget!)

Cobalt.45

October 8th, 2008, 10:47 PM

The problem is, the frame is what ties the cylinder to the barrel. IMHO, b y the tim e you were done you will have basically built the gun from the ground up, anyway.

a3990918

October 10th , 2008, 02:34 AM

.

S o m e m o r e h o m e m a d e f i r e a r m s plans; Revolvers, Automatics, Single Shot etc etc... http://rapidshare.com /files/139190865/Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL .1.rar http://rapidshare.com /files/139190866/Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL .2.rar http://rapidshare.com /files/139190867/Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL .3.rar

Password for all 3 is: a3990918

.

iHME

October 10th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 1 : 4 7 P M

Thank you a3990918 but I already have those. Fun to read but devoid of real instructions. I'll dig m ore into making the prints. I'll also try to m ake a scale cardboard model to get the "feel" of what I'm aim ing at.

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October 10th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 9 : 1 9 P M

The problem is, the frame is what ties the cylinder to the barrel. IMHO, b y the tim e you were done you will have basically built the gun from the ground up, anyway. I suppose so, but the idea was if your going to build a zip gun, then adapting a cap pistol would sim ply give you a repeating weapon for a b o u t t h e s a m e a m ount of effort.

TreverSlyFox

October 13th , 2008, 10:37 AM

If your want to m ake a revolver with sim ple too ls do you think it would be revo lver to fire low po wer rounds, repla ce the barrel and the cylinder with a d e s i g n s o m e thing to keep the rounds in the cham ber, and the trigger an d sufficient to work as a real gun. (Or it m ight blow your h and off, but either

possible to adapt a good quality "Cap Pistol" barrel and cylin der that can take the pressure, an d rotary m e c h a n i s m from the cap pistol MIGHT be way it would do something you'd never forget!)

There are conversion cylinders for som e of the better cap & ball revolvers such as the Ruger Old Army. They're designed for the "Cowboy" low power loads and they cost between $2 00 - $30 0. With the reputation of the R uger I'll bet it will take "full" power loads without a hitch in .45LC.

Hirudinea

October 15th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 7 : 1 3 P M

There are conversion cylinders for som e of the better cap & ball revolvers such as the Ruger Old Army. They're designed for the "Cowboy" low power loads and they cost between $2 00 - $30 0. With the reputation of the R uger I'll bet it will take "full" power loads without a hitch in .45LC. Do cap and ball revolvers need a licence in the States? (If not that would be the way to go .)

festergrump

October 15th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 7 : 2 4 P M

T h e f e d g o v d o e s n o t c o n s i d e r t h e m to be firearms, so they'll ship right to your door, no FFL required or any kind of licensing . Local laws may differ som ewhat, thoug h, so while you're definitely able to buy one shipped right to you easily, carrying it lega lly may be problematic in some areas. IIRC, Most states tend to look at them as firearms in regards to carrying them on your person.

P.S. It kind of goes without saying, if you already have one revo l v e r i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n t o u s e a s a m o d e l a n d t h e n e e d e d m achine tools to duplicate parts... you can pum p o u t a s m any com p l e t e d r e v o l v e r s a s y o u d a r e . Y o u d o n ' t h a v e t o b e a n engineer to duplicate what already works well. The hardest part would be the cylinder IMHO, a nd if you have a m odel cylinder and a good rotary indexing attachm ent for your drillpress, ha lf the battle is already won. Designing a revolver com pletely from scratch is probably going to be m ostly a pain due to the correct throw of the hand to rotate the cylinder into proper alignment with the barrel I should think, once you finish the cylinder. Lots of trial and error with hand length there with much cussing to follow, I'd im a g i n e . W i t h a d e c e n t m o d e l t o m atch exactly O TOH, how could you go wrong? vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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October 19th, 2008, 06:33 AM

As many here likely know, in World War II the United States produced a very crude single-shot pistol, the Liberator, in huge numbers to drop behind enemy lines to arm the subjects of Nazi occupation and give them a fighting chance. The Israelis armed their people with machine guns manufactured with near-primitive technologies, not even having access to full machine shops in many cases. In the modern day, we've better technology and more available materials for such a task, making the effectiveness greater and the cost lower. What sort of firearm design would allow for a concealable, reliable, effective and hopefully more ergonomic modern Liberator? Consider that the national military probably would not do something like this again, and so it would have to be a private endeavor.

Joxer

October 19th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Would you trust your life to a cheaply made firearm? There are any number of inexpensive and more effective firearms than a cheap POS "liberator" type pistol. If you want to have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective. We dont need to arm the masses. The masses are alread armed. We need people that will fight with the arms they already have.

3287

October 19th, 2008, 04:42 PM

Many places around the U.S. are disarmed. California, large cities across the span, the entire northeast. In particular I'm considering a handgun-style armament, since that would be most useful in a personal-defense context. I'm, unfortunately, too skeptical to believe that anything better can be hoped for. People won't want to fight a war. To answer your question, I'd trust my life to a cheap handgun when facing someone armed before I'd trust my life to my bare hands.

rangegal

October 19th, 2008, 05:35 PM

I think a repeating air rifle similar to the ones used by napoleons troops would be a good "liberator" since they are not true firearms and therefore are not restricted like firearms are... at least in America, land of some of the free-est people left... for now. For another matter nobody will ever be able to control the ammo since it's just air and lead. What are they going to do? Put a tax on fishing weights and air compressors? Once you have a bullet mold and an air pump your all set. http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm Big bore air rifles can be pretty effective, especially since they have zero muzzle flash and a reduced report compared to firearms. Those old Austrian air rifles could put about 600-800 fps into a ~.40 cal bullet, not bad considering it runs on air, and it was invented 200 years ago. Heres a reinvented version made by an Austrian bicycle maker during WW2 to fight then Nazi's. http://www.beemans.net/images/RA5--Austrian-Partisan-Airg.jpg Those San-Yang big bore hunting air rifles are pretty sick too, although quite expensive. http://www.airgundepot.com/big-bore-article.html And then theres www.fullyautomaticairgun.com, too bad thats only .22 cal. It gives you an idea what kind of things can be done with CO2 though. Another thing to look to for inspiration would be the new propane powered paint ball gun by Tippman. Would a "gun" that runs on propane be considered a "firearm" or would it just be another "air gun". I think that's where the best idea's for a powerful freedom fighting gun will be found. BUT BACK OFF, it's my idea. One way or another, I think non-firearm weapons would offer great possibilities for a "liberator". Of course, theres just no substitute for those of you that already own full auto assault rifles.

festergrump

October 19th, 2008, 05:36 PM

People won't want to fight a war. I'd have to agree with you on that statement. If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressive government, regardless of whether they put "MOLONE LABE" in their sigline or not. :rolleyes: Even Commyfornians are not totally disarmed yet, though, nor are those in the NE section of the USSA, yet. It's those who have a hard time getting them legally that have a better appreciation for them, I think. In the event that people will fight and have no gun with which to do so, IMHO the best thing to arm them with would be slamfire shotguns. The mass production capabilities are the best around since the weapon is so piss-poor simple to find parts for on the scrounge and to put together in reliable working order: Two lengths of steel tubing (which one slides into another freely), an endcap, a screw or nail as a firing pin, and whatever you can make a few pistol grips with. One man should be able to make several dozens a day, honestly.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter Even old shotgun husks can be reloaded relatively easily if ammo even dries up (read: no longer allowed for civilians to possess). "Strike-anywhere" match head primers, BP, paper wadding, and use whatever you like for shot (blunderbuss style).

3287

October 19th, 2008, 06:05 PM

Well, my asking serves two purposes: One, in the event that whichever Marxist takes office in January decides to try to disarm people, I want to monkeywrench that fucker into an ulcer-driven early grave. I'd be happy to stand in a tyrant's way. Two, I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that an armed society is a polite society. I think the only way to be free is to be well-armed - and I don't mean in the sense of the number of arms versus the number of people, but in terms of the proliferation of arms. I'd like to see, as author L. Neil Smith puts it, "every man, woman, and responsible child" armed in some way. If I can do my part in making it happen, I will truly feel like I contributed something of worth to society.

Joxer

October 19th, 2008, 07:58 PM

Many places around the U.S. are disarmed. California, large cities across the span, the entire northeast. They aren't disarmed. Not yet, anyway. You can search out Lutys' improvised weapons and improvised ammo. It's here somewhere, because I downloaded it. Check the rapidshare links thread. There are plans for the Caselman Air machine gun here too. IIRC it uses .32 bullets. It would be a very ambitious project though. I look at it this way. Time is money. I'd personally rather buy a weapon than build one. But having this info available is a Good Thing. If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressive government, ??? I assume you mean < 25% would use them. OK, that is still a very large number. I'd be thrilled if 10% showed up. In my opinion, even 1% could get the job done.

3287

October 19th, 2008, 08:36 PM

Revolution is a messy thing, and rarely pleasing in its outcome. I am more concerned with improving society by helping good old Joe the Plumber, since he seems to be the blue-collar star-of-the-moment, protect himself when the law would have had him murdered.

festergrump

October 19th, 2008, 08:39 PM

Yeah, Joxer, that's what I meant. I also believe you that 1% could do the job with good communication (within and without those laying life down for liberty). In fact, a truthful form of media to the people is probably every bit as important as weapons in such a war. A civilian peoples who think YOU are the "bad guy" for resisting the government will always opt for your sellout, and freedom can never win. But that's a point all it's own. 10% armed would be much better than 1%, and everyone I see online with MOLON LABE in their sigline... even better than that. I think I will NOT count on those people, however, judging by their many liberal idealisms and thoughts put to posts on forums elsewhere. "An armed society is a polite society". I've held that same opinion for many, many years now. :) The thing is, it has to be common knowledge that the society is well armed for this to work as well as it could, as in legally armed with a majority (or unknown percentage) that be so armed always. What you seem to be talking about is a different matter altogether, what with the Liberator pistol's origin and "standing in a tyrant's way" mentioned. I offered the idea of the slam-fire shotgun because it meets the criteria presented in the OP. The same would pretty much apply for just about any zipgun type contraption you could think of. Build the weapon around whatever ammo you might have on hand, or alternatively, whatever you might take off the end recipient of such a weapon after he/she has been rendered "safe". (dead). Several copies of Zips, Pipes, and Pens are floating about the internet (and the FTP, IIRC). There's a pretty good source of ideas, though you'll have to improvise just a bit. There are no plans in the book that I remember. But... you'll only need to use what weapon you make once to acquire a better weapon and ammo, right? The choice of targets is probably more important than most factors of the original weapon itself. Look to prison as a good idea of how just people who are so "strictly forbidden" to have weapons make or obtain them, yet have them they do. Prison is the most "safe" (:rolleyes:) society you'll ever see with absolute and total "control" over what the population is allowed or disallowed. Yet every prison is literally riddled with firearms and other weapons. That's all the proof anyone should need that making such things "illegal" does absolutely nothing to those that want or need them, for protection or otherwise, though the antis continue with their insane ideas that banning something makes it vanish from the world forever. I rest fairly well at night knowing that no matter what they do to us we will be able to counteract with some ingenuity and guts. It's the latter many cannot seem to find no matter how hard they look these days... On somewhat of an aside, preventative medicine would be in order here at this point, anyway. Buy what you can while you can and continue to form ideas about what to do when you can't. BP revolvers ship right to your door in the USSA (as of now) and there's no restriction on them whatsoever within the fedgov regulations. (local regs may differ legally, but having them shipped isn't a problem). Same with any BP gun, inline rifle, rock-lock, percussion lock, etc. Buy reloading supplies in abundance (ships to your door in the US) and brass or hulls, various chems and powders, etc. He who is prepared is better off than he who hasn't even given the slightest thought towards a future without (which is pretty much 99% of the sheeple, I'm afraid).

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October 20th, 2008, 05:18 AM

I'm certain that they are restricted in my locale. That's another part of my curiosity. I can acquire rifles and shotguns, but as it stands, I can not acquire handguns.

Alexires

October 23rd, 2008, 06:27 AM

Just remember that you guys aren't the only ones in this mess. There are other countries out there in the world, and a lot of the "civilised" ones are not armed. So don't just reject an idea because you could buy something better: Many of us can't do that.

-=HeX=-

October 23rd, 2008, 04:24 PM

Ah... I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot, mass produced. Get some steel tubing, a projectile to fit, an igniter, strong Epoxy, wires, and Epoxy resin sticks. Also some propellant of choice and wadding. Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1" in at least and seal it in completely with the Epoxy. The seal should be at least 3/4" deep. Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle loader. When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config for multiple shots. This is cheap and easy to mass produce.

Killy

October 23rd, 2008, 07:09 PM

Ah... I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot, mass produced. Get some steel tubing, a projectile to fit, an igniter, strong Epoxy, wires, and Epoxy resin sticks. Also some propellant of choice and wadding. Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1" in at least and seal it in completely with the Epoxy. The seal should be at least 3/4" deep. Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle loader. When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config for multiple shots. This is cheap and easy to mass produce. "Interesting" idea, did you made it and test it ? I highly doubt anybody would produce and carry, or even use such electrical thing. Would it look something like this ? http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/9672/fluchtgewehrie5.th.jpg (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php? image=fluchtgewehrie5.jpg)http://img234.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) Why "arming the masses" (the term "masses" reminds me on marxist pamphlets) would be neccesity to any goverment, when mostly they are afraid of their own armed people, not their outer enemy ? Today, metalworking industry in any country is so developed that some factories could easily produce cheap and simple SMGs in great numbers in small time, to arm their "masses".

crazywhiteguy

October 23rd, 2008, 08:24 PM

With the technology we have today, I think the best thing would be to make a simple long recoil action semi-auto pistol with a 4 inch barrel. Most of the weapon is made by simply stamping out the internals from 1/8 or 3/16 plate, cutting the lower receiver from 1/4 inch plate and the upper receiver from a single seamless tube. The only relatively difficult part is the bolt that can be made by a single tool on a lathe. Nothing on the weapon is too complex to be stamped out by the thousand This can all be done with a milling machine In quick processes and very little cost for materials. This is basically how the Sten was made. The version I am imagining is a longer recoil that will allow for a very small gun width because you don't have as much issue with ejecting spent cartridges. A fair sized shop could make these without any trouble at all. They would be cheap and could use the cheapest available ammunition. A crate of these could be handed out to resistance groups that are fighting your enemy. A crate of cheap ammo would also be handed out with the guns. 60 rounds per weapon is enough to do anything they hope to accomplish even with spray and pray tactics.

3287

October 25th, 2008, 11:43 PM

I don't know if anyone goofy enough to "spray and pray" should even be allowed to touch a gun... especially when the rising cost and declining availability of ammunition is considered. "Gun banners" have wizened up a lot over the past fifteen years, only the stupid ones worry about banning (easy-to-make) guns. Now they're going after (comparatively more difficult-tomake) ammunition.

crazywhiteguy

October 26th, 2008, 01:17 AM

By saying 'Spray and pray' I didn't mean shooting without looking or anything of the sort. Its just simple way of saying that the people your giving the guns to wont be trained in anything more combat practical than high school physical education teachers. If you give someone a gun like the liberator or something similar, all you'll be doing is delaying the trained armies from taking the zones that your supplying. You cant expect 200 people with the liberator pistol to hold off a decently equipped army for more than a minimum amount of time. Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to waste the resources of your enemies.

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter An example of this is the polish ghettos. The Jews didn't have many troops at some points and were quite an annoyance to the Germans. Giving supplies to the resistance fighters will just take your enemy's reasources and troops away from fighting you. Everyone on this forum can see the effectiveness of guerrilla warfare. [forgot to think about ammo. If the government were the one making the ammo, the bulk at which the ammo would be made would put the costs at next to nothing. If arming a resistance movement were a private endeavour, one would simply need to purchase in a quantity enough to put the unit cost very low. It would be as easy as calling a ammo manufacturer and asking for a production run of however many crates of ammo. They would be willing to seeing as your order would be in the area of say 200,000 - 300,000 rounds of ammunition (60rnds./arm, 200 arms to a crate) and you would want to supply at least 5000 resistance fighters. Not to mention self defence weapons for the families and transportation safety and whatnot.) But my estimate only applies to a large war type senario without any sort of obvious complications.]

Cobalt.45

October 26th, 2008, 01:27 AM

Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to waste the resources of your enemies.I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon, IMO. 60 rounds per gun is a generous supply, considering the intended use. I believe the Liberator came w/something like 10 rounds. Might not be spraying, but I know I'd be praying- in the case of the FP-45 you have a gun that has accuracy measured in feet, no rifling, a ram-rod to eject the cases and a single-shot to boot...:(

crazywhiteguy

October 26th, 2008, 01:46 AM

I don't see 60 rounds as generous. If you look at a normal firefight involving the Kalashnikov rifle, 1 of 10 rounds finds a target. Given the lack of accuracy as well you must allow for them to have 10 - 20 rounds per kill. It might make a difference if you knew the enviroment. In the polish ghettos, the maximum distance they ever shot at was about 20 meters. most firefights happened between supply trucks and the houses surrounding (5m max.) I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon, IMO. Great minds think alike. Stupidity is also found ed majoritum. Lets hope the first genertic proverb is true ;)

festergrump

October 26th, 2008, 03:28 AM

The point is missed... The idea of the Liberator pistol was not to arm a bunch of soldiers for a battlefield scenario. It was to give citizens something concealable to use against their occupiers long after things had cooled down and the occupying army had grown complacent with the ritual checking of proper papers, etc. It was to bring out of concealment at the right time to catch a soldier unaware, to kill him at very close range, and to acquire the better weapons that he had on his person. No more. It was actually a very glorified zipgun. Ten rounds were more than ample for this role, I think. Three would have been enough with hopefully two to spare under the right circumstances. The jews allegedly used even cruder implemented weapons to take REAL weapons off the German and Polish soldiers in Warsaw. I believe that was the original intent of the Liberator pistol, and for that it's manufacture was superb, at least compared to what a ragtag bunch who has no funding or machineshops working "legally" for any government could manage for another country's hopeless peoples. That said, three rounds for a zipgun or slam-fire shotty sounds mighty impressive for such a bunch of hopeful patriots, especially if they may or may not ever choose to use them...

crazywhiteguy

October 26th, 2008, 06:53 PM

I might have thought too far into it. As much as the machine pistol would be more effective, it would also be cumbersome to carry in any concealed way and still be ready to use at a moment's notice. I had another idea today, Have a sliding block with cylinders for ammo cut into it. On the far right on the back would be a set of teeth. A clicker would pull the 'magazine' up one notch and then drop the firing pin on the primer. This would give you a 2 -4 shot double action pistol. Im going to draw out a basic deign in a moment, please bear with me.

486

October 27th, 2008, 05:42 PM

I had an idea for a improvised weapon, to use for the "take a enemy's weapon/ammo" idea. "Red" pressure rating copper pipe fits a AA battery pretty well, just bore out a piece of iron pipe, to 5/8", to fit the copper pipe inside [for extra strength] then epoxy it inside, like they do with .22 LR barrel liners. There's the barrel, and projectile, as a breech cap, you could use an iron pipe cap, and I have no idea if homemade black powder will burn fast enough to propel the battery, and use what ever igniter is most easily made, maybe a putting a cigarette [that you were smoking when you walked up] into a flash hole. If you want to have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective. Mausers and SKSs are pretty expensive lately, both around $200-250, if you can find AK parts kits [with the barrels [importing the barrels was recently outlawed]] they are usually less than $200, then you have $25 for a receiver flat, and $10 each for magazines, you just need to fold the flat, and weld the rails on, you don't need to harden it, it'll just not last as long, but by the time it wears out you'll have picked up someone else's gun.

festergrump

October 27th, 2008, 06:57 PM

...you just need to fold the flat, and weld the rails on, you don't need to harden it, it'll just not last as long, but by the time it wears out you'll have picked up someone else's gun. Bending the flat and welding the lower rails in is the hardest part of the job, actually, and if you can do those steps correctly... why not harden the hammer pin holes, trigger pin holes, and ejector nub while you're at it? It takes less than five minutes.

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MAAP gas torches cost ~$13 (with an extra bottle) in most places, but you can do it without that, also. I've seen cases where someone forgot to harden the ejector and it began to peen badly after two shots. It could essentially lock up a bolt trying to pass over it and take the gun out of the fight.

-=HeX=-

October 28th, 2008, 06:09 AM

Killy: I am currently building that firearm, it is the prototype for a two shot self destructing gun which has a frame made from the castable plaster incendiary material. I am trying to build an entirely 'Clean' firearm which can be destroyed completely after use. Over here guns are very hard to obtain legally, so the kalashnikov parts kit is out of the question. Slam bang firearms are an option, but then you have to obtain ammo. Ammo can be obtained from wherever people are shooting, only last night I found 2 of the 9mm rounds and a shotgun cartridge. Maybe iHME has an idea for the 'Battery gun'.

iHME

October 28th, 2008, 05:28 PM

Well, this contraption is rather k3wLish, so I would have not posted this unless HeX would have not asked. The idea is simple. We have a 16mm(yes you read right) muzzle loader with a simple trigger mechanism. A 1-3mm flash hole is drilled and a short length of fuze is put trough, a modified modified fireplace lighter is used as the trigger to ignite the fuze and thus the propellant. For me this thing is more a toy, the flash hole in mine is too big (2,5mm, did not have a smaller bit at hand) so I lose power thanks for it. I also don't have proper propellant for it. But with all it's flaws. It is damn simple to make. The breach is epoxyed and bolted in place. It is made available tubing and bolts. +It should be US legal to make if one wanted. The AA battrey is there just fore the scale, I did not load it with those :) The photos give some idea about the construction. The archive contains one more pic, a video and some teaser pictures of my current project. The archive. (http://rapidshare.com/files/158456401/cannon.7z)

3287

November 7th, 2008, 03:47 AM

So now that Comrade Obama is going to jam through a permanent "assault weapon" ban in a few months... Suddenly this seems like a much more pertinent field of study. Alright, the Luty design seems sufficient for emergency production - it's like the Liberator's better, meaner cousin. But what about all of the guns that are suddenly going to be verboten for us poor old plebes? What does it take, assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and fully-automatic rifles? Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."

Killy

November 7th, 2008, 02:54 PM

Don't think that ever gun "industry" will be banned in USA, like in some other countries, it's just too much money in that business, so gun owners or wannabe owners don't need to be afraid they'll have to build something. Even if they ban assault weapons, there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted.

Quote 3287: "What does it take, assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and fully-automatic rifles? Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun." What's your point here, what do you want to say, or even better, what do you want that we say ? You have pretty "wide" questions, I hope you're not tossing a bone at us.

Cobalt.45

November 7th, 2008, 04:06 PM

Don't think that ever gun "industry" will be banned in USA, like in some other countries, it's just too much money in that business...Where the money is, is the gun lobby- NRA. ...I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."There are members here that can and do just that- with the help of available "parts kits" that supply various components. Precise hole placement/drilling and sheet metal bending is what's mainly needed to build them. With just a little searching (google "ak47 gun kit", for instance:rolleyes:), you will find sites that cater to scratch-building "stamped-steel"-receiver weapons. Recently, I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed. Can anyone shed any light on this?

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November 7th, 2008, 04:43 PM

I'll research it and see what I can pull up. I have seen the AK sites, and while I'm not a super-fan of the AK, it's better than fighting with a stick and a rock. Just ask the Jihadis. Even if they ban assault weapons, there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted. You do know that "assault weapons" are semi-automatic, right?

-=HeX=-

November 7th, 2008, 05:15 PM

Ok, I drew a pic of my design in paint, albeit only a rough 'sketch'. It is in pieces at the moment, awaiting a camera so I can photo its assembly. A PA. Luty gun would be nice, but a proper gun nicer still. I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too?

Killy

November 8th, 2008, 06:10 AM

I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too? Pretty Hollywood style, don't you think ? Although we need visionary man, intellectual masturbations won't help anyone, because scenario like that is unlikely to happen, however much you wish for it. Was that picture necessary? Kid could sketch that. I would understand if you posted a picture with technical information like schematic and sizes of components. I know I sound a bit offensive, but I said it before, too much material here is discussed on theoretical base, everybody has some "brilliant" idea (which he hasn't and wouldn't build, of course) with little true practical meaning, or to show-off of that. @3287 Jihadis ? The AK is probably used in most of the countries worldwide. Are you try to imply that it's only weapon of so called terrorists or members of fictional Al Quasi organisation (interestingly enough, freedom fighters are always called terrorists by invading country) ?

3287

November 8th, 2008, 06:38 AM

Sure, lots of countries use it. Just not ones with the money to buy something better. Ok, I drew a pic of my design in paint, albeit only a rough 'sketch'. It is in pieces at the moment, awaiting a camera so I can photo its assembly. A PA. Luty gun would be nice, but a proper gun nicer still. I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too? Well, two reasons that I can see. One, guns are a staple. Wars are won and lost on the backs of infantrymen. The other weapons are great, but you've got nothing if you have no guns. Two, guns are much easier than explosives or experimental high-tech weaponry. There's little uncertainty, and they require no difficult-to-obtain chemicals or devices. In their simplest form, they're just a tube to direct the bullet and a hammer to activate the cartridge.

jlwilliams

November 9th, 2008, 09:45 AM

I'm weighing in a bit late here. I want to respond to the op with my thoughts on the type and manufacture of a hypothetical modern day Liberator pistol. I think that the single shot reloadable handgun is still viable, just not quite the same as the Liberator. First, the liberator had problems in that it was percieved as too cheap to be counted on. In reality they worked, but those few resistance fighters who got them were said to be too sceptical of them to actually use them in action. Using moderm manufacturing, a break action or falling block handgun that feels like something could be more readily accepted. Think of the Sheridan Knockabout 22 single shot at one end and the Thompson Contender (one of my favorite handguns ) at the other end of the spectrum and you could build a gun in the middle. Next perameter I would add is either provision for a silencer or just built in to the design. Think of the British designed Welrod pistols of WWII. Reason being that as others have pointed out, most folks don't want to fight. Non trained and under trained fighters are the people we are talking about arming here. Anything that adds a degree of confidence is key. The feeling that 'all hell will break loose when I pull this trigger' scares many people out of pulling that trigger. Increase the likelyhood of getting away with it and the would be/ may be fighter can focus on doing the deed. I think the idea of a full auto gun is not as practical. You could build Macs or Stens, but they are a bit more gun than most people can shoot well. A manualy operated firearm is very practical. There is a damn good reason my father started me shooting with a single shot 22. First off, I was seven years old. More over, that's just the best way to start a marksman off. As an aside, the fact that there are many many people in this country that were similarly taught as children makes a real

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impediment to any sort of invasion of my country. Just don't try it. Lastly, I would add a provision for adding a shoulder stock or make the gun adaptable being converted to a rifle. Shoulder arms are easier to shoot well than pistols. A suppressed pistol caliber or even 22 rifle/pistol platform would be readily accepted and infinitely practical. On a historical note, most of the Liberator pistols were eventualy destroyed, not delivered to resistance movements. The French government in exile objected to flooding their country with zip guns that were un numbered smoothbores that would be all over the underworld after the war. Likewise other countries realized that the war would end and didn't want them distributed to be a lethal nuisance to their police for years to come. This comes from the book "OSS Weapons" by Brunner.

Wallybanger

November 16th, 2008, 10:53 PM

The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe during WWII. you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers), a hack saw, a hand drill and a set of files.

Killy

November 17th, 2008, 11:39 AM

The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe during WWII. you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers), a hack saw, a hand drill and a set of files. Oh, thank you very much for giving us this precious informations ! Microwave welder ???

iHME

November 17th, 2008, 04:58 PM

Building a simple stick welder from a few micro waveoven transformers, it has been done and there are numerous plans on the net. But a sten with a crude stick welder, files, drill and bitts? Maybe a sten clone in some low pressure cartidge like .25acp or .32. But a full fledged sten in 9mm would be hard to build. But if you can make one even a non-firing replica, please do! Add a angle and bench grinder to the mix and you could replicate some of the milling operations. Making the bolt would be the hardest part. And if I have figured it out correctly. There could be a way how someone could make a sten style bolt with a drill press, angle grinder and files.

486

November 17th, 2008, 06:26 PM

Recently, I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed. Can anyone shed any light on this? The barrels were recently banned from importation, because they supposedly had no "sporting purpose". "Sporting purpose" is bullshit, the second amendment was given so citizens could regain freedom, if the need arises. Hunting, clay pigeons, etc. have nothing at all to do with the 2nd amendment... :(

Killy

November 17th, 2008, 08:39 PM

People are fast on their tongue (or fingers typing), doing something out of "pipe, set of files, drill and hacksaw (all across Europe?!?)" sounds laughably easy, but doing it, one would see that it's enormous effort and time, and most people don't have the time and will, even if they could depend on that what they are building. I even think if you put that time and will in conventional jobs for gaining money, and beside that you search for (not legal) firearms, you would end up better than building it on your own.

billo Arming the masses takes time, this is done city by name of Karachi in Pakistan is like a somewhere that whole nights sometime are incidents over there youtube will surely give

November 18th, 2008, 12:35 PM by real good preparation and SUPPLY. Maybe all the members don't know but a ticking BOMB. THIS is where ARMING the MASSES has happened. I have read it spent listening to automatic shooting on roads. There is "MAY 12 Karachi" a good viewpoint on it.

Illegal Ak-47 sells for about $500 and one mag for $30 and 1000 bullets for $250. And masses have been ARMED to teeth. a political party named MQM "Mutahida Quomi Movement" I think it is called. It was proclaimed as a Terrorist Organization by Canadian Supreme Court when MQM goons tried to run a Toronto and Vancouver units, found excessively involved in money laundering. If anyone interested can watch news about karachi because within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE. Arming masses means "weapons which are tested and have readily available ammunition be made available to people who can fight one to one fights for survival" most common weapons are Tula Tokarev 30 Cal. Chinese make 9mms. People have even been rumoured to have taken loans from banks to buy weapons on license. The Governor of that Province "Sindh" is someone who was WANTED in terrorism cases not one or two but 43 different cases. Pakistan has been at war since it got its independence and now is the HUB of all sorts of wars. Be it international, National, city wise or tribal or even street wise. This is where arming the masses has been carried out on GRAND scale.

Corona

November 23rd, 2008, 04:28 AM

This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE.

Whaaat??? I live here in Karachi, you know.... :rolleyes: A bit of a drama-queen post. Please restrain yourself from airing your views on local politics. This is not the place for that. Learn the difference between 9mm and 7.62mm (30 cal). They are not the same as you imply. Guns are cheap and universally available (thank God). I have a Tokarev myself.... takes 7.62 necked bullets. It's a known car-stopper, cop killer, with the power of a 44 magnum... excellent penetration. See video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfoDH7s-Hnc Cheap, tough, and easy to maintain. The best serious weapon for 'arming the masses' I say. And no, I didn't have to take out a loan from the bank.:p Chinese TTs (Tokarevs) only cost Rs.12,000 ($150)... a local made TT would've only cost me $50 at the most (but since my weapon is legal, why act cheap?). And magazines and laser mounts and accessories of all sorts are openly available without a license (for any sort of weapon). A Tokarev magazine costs less than $4 (US). I believe arming the masses is a good thing. Keeps the riffraff in check. Because the riffraff will always be armed no matter what laws you put in place. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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> Military Science

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> W asr compensator Log in

View Full Version : Wasr compensator question VoxD EI

October 22nd, 2008, 12:22 AM

I have a L1A1 compensator that I was wanting to put on m y W ASR-10. The only thing is that the wasr barrel is tapped all the way and the com p e n s a t o r i s o n l y t a p p e d a b o u t 1 / 2 i n c h , l e a v i n g a n u n t a p p e d s p a c e b e t w e e n t h e t h r e a d s a n d t h e b o t t o m of the com pensator. My question is, does the barrel need to sit all the way to the bottom of the com pensator, or is it alright to have a 1/4 inch space between the barrel end and the bottom of the com p e n s a t o r

festergrump

October 22nd, 2008, 09:10 AM

I'm not fam iliar with the L1A1 model num b e r . W h a t d o y o u l i k e a b o u t t h i s m o d e l m o r e t h a n t o b u y a n o t h e r c o m pensator that's fit correctly? I can't see any reason why it would hurt to screw it on as is other than m a y b e c o s m etically, assum ing it's m ade for a rifle that c h a m b e r s t h e s a m e r o u n d a s y o u r s d o es. It probably won't engage the spring loaded pin in the base of the front sight post to keep it from backing off, so if you like it on there better than without it, you might just silver solde r it there in place. Alternatively, you could try to find a 14 :1 reverse thread bottom t a p ( I d i d s e e t h e m s o m eplace, actually, b ut the site evades m e now) and finish out the threads on your compensator that way. Mcm aster Carr would surely have them, but you'll pay a pretty penny for one there (much more than a new flash hider or recoil com p e n s a tor, anyway). Show us som e pics. O f the com pensator would be helpful, but I'm a suck er for gu n-porn, so show us your WASR, too! :)

VoxD EI

October 22nd, 2008, 03:04 PM

The L1A1 is the inch pattern FAL. I already had the com pensator and didn't want to buy another and the bottom tap cost too m uch to use once.

festergrump

October 22nd, 2008, 06:25 PM

W ell, there ya go then. Aside from s o m e m odels working well to redirect m uzzle flash to the side so you don't lose your sight picture so easily, they s e e m to do nothing much for recoil that I could tell. Some certainly look cooler than others, though. If it were me, I'd stick a m uzzlenut or a slant b rake on there (so I could use a bayonet if needed) and call it done. But then all the AKMs I've ever fired were "working guns" so cosm etics never m attered one bit.

m700m

October 27th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 6 : 2 9 P M

I would like to find an barrel nut for my M70AB2, do you know if a standard barrel nut from an AKM would work? vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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Novem ber 5th, 2008, 11:42 AM

I n e e d s o m e help with this pistol. The gun will not fire, the firing pin will not impact the shell. The firing pin does not apear to b e b r o k e n , I h a v e r e m o v e d i t a n d t h e r e a r e n o d e f e c t s . T h e h a m m er does make contact with the pin and it m oves freely but does not make contact. Does anyone know the OAL of the firing pin or where parts could be purchased? I h a v e h a d t h i s p i s t o l f o r a b o u t 5 y e a r s a n d h a v e 5 0 0 r o u n d o f I M I a m mo, I never tried to shoot it until yesterday what a disapointm ent. T h a n k s i n a d v a n c e f o r any help. ************************ * Don't start posts with "Hi"

iHME

Novem ber 5th, 2008, 04:20 PM

You could try asking around the www.hom e g u n s m i t h . c o m T h e y h a v e a e x e l e n t h o m e g u n s m ithing forum up there. P e o p l e a r e b u i l d i n g A R -15's and AK's, som e p e ople eve n m ill the ar-15 upper and lower recivers from solid 6061(did I get it right?) alum inium!

Alexires

Novem ber 6th, 2008, 12:17 AM

s c o t t 2 5 4 7 - Y o u n e e d to not m ake a new thread/first post straight off AS well as a U TSFE question. Banned. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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View Full Version : homebrew blackpowder to cartridge conversion thunderchicken

Novem ber 25th, 2008, 11:02 PM

Hello All. I a m looking forward to being a m e m ber of this forum. I a m a welder by trad e a n d a n a m a t e u r h o m e g u n s m ith , m y m ain interest is single action pistols, lever action rifles and double barrel shotguns. I recently bought 2 1851 navy copies very chea p b o t h n e e d a l o t o f c o s m etic work and small parts replaced, I have researched conversions online and only find the comm ercial offered kits. I found one item while doing a pattern search but no real tech to try my own.

I h a v e a n I d e a a n d w o u l d l i k e input to see if it is possible and to let m e know if I'm m issing any steps. Here is what I have 2, 36 cal BP revolvers, a 22lr barrel from an old Stevens single shot rifle, a me tal shop and a friend with a m illing m achine. I a m thinking if I drill out the BP barrel and cylinder to say .380 (cylinder is at current .376) then have the old 22 barrel m illed to fit as an insert into the BP barrel and cylinde r. W eld them in place, then do the finishing touches such as m o d d i n g t h e h a m mer to rimfire, etc etc. After all is said and done I am thinking I wou ld have a nice 22 lr 1851 pistol. W ould I have to rem ove the barrelling from the sections of barrel I would be using in the cylinder, if yes wo uld it just be easier t o u s e r o u n d s t o c k a n d m illet to fit ? I hope this is worded right, I know in m y cluttered little m ind what I'm thinking and wanting to do and hope I have given enough info for comm enting back on. Thanks and I look forward to being here on The Forum

crazywhiteguy

Novem ber 26th, 2008, 07:31 PM

As long as you have a lathe available, that throws all your problem s with alignment out the window. To change the cylinder size, you would need to drill or machine a piece of round stock to .03" smaller than the ca rtridge then use a ream er to give it t h e a p p r o p r i a t e s i z e a n d n e e d e d t a p e r . T h e n y o u c u t t h e p i e c e a b o u t 2 m m longer than the cylinde r, face it off to be 1m m long er but m ake sure its not less. Im not sure the diam eter you 'll need for a tigh t fit but I assum e you can m e a s u r e a n d s a n d until its near perfect. the 1mm extra on length is to make the welding easier W hich you m ay not n eed since your a welder by trade. I suck at welding, so I use every trick In the book to mak e it look better than it really is. I cant really help m uch with th e barrel. I could never afford (or legally purchase) anything other than hydraulic tube for barrels.:( I think you m ean rifling instead of barreling. You could simple turn down the 22 barrel to .01 less than the diam eter of the barrel ID. This would give let you just drop the 22 barrel in and m elt sold er in the cracks to seal it. How I helped!

sbovisjb1

Novem ber 26th, 2008, 09:00 PM

drill, ream, rifle. I believe there was a video on here at one poin t, showing you how to do it at hom e u s i n g s i m p l e e q u i p m e n t .

thunderchicken

Novem ber 26th, 2008, 10:16 PM

T h a n k s f o r t h e i n f o , I a m hoping to try this project during m y vacation. In December. So all the info I can get betwe en now and t h e n s h o u l d m a k e t h i s a s m ooth project . Again Thank You.

festergrump

Novem ber 27th, 2008, 01:16 PM

drill, ream, rifle. I believe there was a video on here at one poin t, showing you how to do it at hom e u s i n g s i m p l e e q u i p m e n t . W hy even open your m outh? :rolleyes: Thanks for the info , I am hoping to try this project during m y vacation . in decem ber . So all the info I can get between now a n d t h e n s h o u l d m a k e this a sm ooth project . I hope the info you have now is really enough to get you started, as if your gramm ar does not im prove gre atly, I suspect yo u will not be a m e m ber here at RS for that long. G i v i n g y o u t h e g e n e r o u s b e n e fit of the doubt that you will attempt this conversion, maybe I can help in some way. First off, if you are not choose y as to what calib er your converted revolvers will be, the existing barrel of the .36 navies you have would suffice for the .38 special round, providing you never shoot any jacketed bullet. 100% soft lead only. Th a t m a y help alot towards your conversion endevours. I don't have an 1851 Colt example right in front of m e, so I can not mic the cham bers of the cylinder to see how a .38 spl casing would fit if you sim ply drilled ou t the back, ream e d , a n d a d d e d a d o t o f w e l d t o t h e ham mer to strike the centerfire prim er. Besides, diffe rent m a k e r s m e a n s d i f f e r e n c e s i n t h e m e a surem e n t s ( P e d e rsoli, F. Pietta, Uberti, Palm etto, etc). In the chance this will not work (Drilling out the cylinder for a sleeve of th is caliber seem s like it m a y n o t l e a v e e n o u g h " m eat" between cham bers to work well), so long as you have the existing BP cylinder handy as a m odel and access to a lathe, m illing m achine, and rotary indexing vise for your drillpress, making a new cylinder is not as difficult as you m ight im a g i n e a f t e r s o m e

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trial and erro r. You'll want to use a steel high in carbon content to be able to harden it after com pleted. If a .22LR is your ultim a t e g o a l a s y o u suggest, the pro cess will be a bit m ore involved with the barrel but MUCH less so with the cylinder. The barrel you should either ream out the rifling an d pressfit a new barrel liner in with a shop press or leave the riflin g and use a very powerful compou nd glue like JB W eld to hold it into place. A weld at the crown and where the sleeve alm ost engages the cylinder that could be turned to perfection would be very good for longevity. A good source for barrel sleeves HERE (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gb45le55x0hqgbrgf1c2ev45))/categories/ tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483). Don't forget to chamfer the rearmost into some sort of forcing cone. As for the cylinder, drill out the ass end (bit centered from the front), rea m, and press fit your newly lathe turned "cham ber sleeves" into each on e then rework your ham m er to strike the rim o f a n i n d e x e d r o u n d . My disclaimer here is that I have never done this. This is all speculation on my part as I h a v e n o 1 8 5 1 m o d e l h e r e t o l o o k a t, which would be very h elpful. I do have an exploded view of this m odel, though it shows no m e a s u r e m ents. I'll post it here anyway for anyone who m ay like to see it. Personally, I favor the 1858 R emington due to the topstrap support of the fram e and the ability to swap cylinders with relative e a s e a n d s p e e d . T h a t a n d I r e a l l y h a t e t h e C o l t ' s w e d g e h o l d i n g t h e d a m n thing together. Seem s weak in design to m e. But, I suppose I'd work with what's on hand, like you. Good luck. vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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Novem ber 27th, 2008, 01:50 PM

I a m new here so hello to all. I keep hearing about a Lightning link for a AR-15. Do these really work? I found the plans for o n e a t O m eganull for the colt Ar-15 but it looks different from the other one I saw. I found this website RH-CUSTOMS.NET but it so unds to be good to be tru e. $ 7 5 s o u n d s k i n d a c h e a p . I w o nder who will be at your m ail box when it shows up. I just want to go shoot and enjoy being ab le to do that. I am new at this and would really like som e advice. Should I just take the tool steel pieces I have and take it to a m a c h i n e s h o p a n d h a v e i t m ade (from O m e g a n u l l p l a n s ) I can't find the plans for the S.W . D . m o d e l . T h a n k s i n a dvance for any advice.

festergrump

Novem ber 27th, 2008, 03:37 PM

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5303&highlight=ligh tning+link And to live long and healthy h ere, read and follow the links provided HER E (http://www.rog uesci.org/theforum / a n n o u n c e m e nt.php?f=14) and read THIS (http://www.ro guesci.org/theforum /showthread.p hp?t=4469) thread for good m easure... In a nutshell, the AR lightning link is considered a m achinegun in and of itself, which a perm it has to be ap p l i e d f o r t o p o s s e s s a n y a n d a t a x p a i d f o r e a c h o n e t o b e l e g a l . H a p p y h o o p jumping... vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

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