Eurasian Origins of Berbers and Modern North Africans

7/31/2014

Eur asi an Or i g in ins of Ber ber s and moder n Nor th Afr i cans. | Ma Mathil da' s Anthr opol og yBlog .

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Eurasian Origins Origins of Berbers and modern m odern North Africans Africans.. Posted on May 2, 2008 | 162 Com ments

Eurasian Origin of Berbers Berbers and mo dern North A fri fricans cans Essentiall ssentially y the same thing, as North Africans are mainly Arabized Berbers.. Essential ssentially, ly, abo ut ten thousand ye ars ago a population wave from the near East East swept ov er North  Afric  A fric a, brin b ringing ging in grac gr ac ile Me dit diter er ra rane nean an peo p eo ple in the th e Capsia Cap sian n er a. A lat later er wav e o f immigra immig ratio tio n occ urred in the Neolithic Neolithic when the expanding farmers from from the near east ploughed their way ac ross North Africa, some leaving artwork in the c entral Sahara Sahara to mark their passage. A s far as DNA DNA studies can tell, the Arab invasions that co nve rted North Africans to Islam made v irtuall irtually y no impact to the population; essentially essentially they conv erted the loc al population and didn’t didn’t replace them. There was a only  trace c ontribution made to North North Africa by Europe during the Barbary Barbary slavery era, but quite a signifi signi ficant cant amou nt of sub Saharan maternal ancestry was added. The mode rn North A fri frican can is mainly  Eurasian in ancestry , and c luster with Europeans and west A sians. To To q uote Ca Cav v alli Sforza.. Sforza..  Berbers  Berb ers are lo c ate d primarily prim arily in th e no n o rth rthern ern reg io ions ns o f Alge Al ge ria and an d Mo ro rocc c o , but b ut so s o me w ha hat  t  to the interi interior, or, usually not far fr from om the sea. . Berbers are are be lieved to have their ancestors among Capsian Mesolithics Mesolithics and the ir Neolithic Neolithic de sce ndants, possibly with gene tic co ntri ntributions butions from the important Neo Neo lithi lithicc migr migrations ations from from the Near East. East. It is reasonable to hypothe size that the Berber (Afro-Asiatic) (Afro-Asiatic) language was introduce d by the Neolithic farmers farmers  Any  A ny way , this th is page pa ge h as a few fe w links to DNA stud st udies ies of No rt rth h A fric ans ans,, whic whi c h I s ho hould uld re ally sta start rt u pd pdatin ating. g. I’s not complete. One day day I will redo the whole thing to be neater and more co mprehensive .

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Eur asi an Or i g in ins of Ber ber s and moder n Nor th Afr i cans. | Ma Mathil da' s Anthr opol og yBlog .

 Sean  Sea n Myles Myl es 1, 2 , No urd urdine ine Bou Bouze zekri kri1, Eden Ede n Have Hav e rfield 1, 3 , Moha Mo ha me d Che rkao ui4 , Je an Miche  Mic he l Dugo ujo n 5 an and d Ryk Ward  W ard 1

(1)

Institute of Biological Anthropo logy, Universi University ty of Oxford, Oxford, UK 

(2)

Departme nt of Evolutio nary Genetics, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutio nary  Anth  A nth ro ropo po lo gy gy,, Deut sc he r Platz Plat z 6, 0 41 0 3, Lei Leipzig pzig,, German Germ any y

(3)

Department of Human Genetics, Universi University ty of Chi Chicago cago , 920 East East 58th St Street, reet, Chicago Chi cago , IL 60637 , USA USA

(4)

Laboratoire dEcologie Humaine, Faculté des Sciences-Semlali Sciences-Semlalia, a, Universi Université té Cadi   Ayy  A yy ad ad,, Moro Mo rocc c o

(5)

Centree dAnthropo logie CN Centr CNRS RS,, ,, Universi University ty of Toulouse, UMR 8555 , Fr France ance

 Rec ei eiv v ed ed:: 15 November 2004  A  Ac c c ep epte ted: d: 23 December December 200 4  Pub lish ed o n lin e: 2 A pr pril il 2005   Abs  A bstra tracc t The pro c e ss by b y w hic h pa sto ralis ralism m and an d ag ric ricult ulture ure spre ad fro m th e Fe rtile Cres Crescc en t  ov er the past 1 0,0 00 ye ars has been the subjec t of intense investigation investigation by geneticists, linguists lingui sts and archaeo logists. How How eve r, no co nsensus has been reached as to wh ether this  Neo lith ic tran transit sitio ion n is be b e st c ha harac rac te rize rized d by b y a d em ic icdiffus diffusio ion n (w ith itha a sig nific ant ge ne netic tic inpu t  http://mathil dasanthr opol og ybl og .wor dpr ess.com/2008/05/02/eur asi an- or ig i ns- of- the- ber ber s/

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Eur asi an Or i g in ins of Ber ber s and moder n Nor th Afr i cans. | Ma Mathil da' s Anthr opol og yBlog .

 from mig migrati rating ng farme fa rmers) rs) o r a cult c ultura uraldi ldiffusio ffusio n (w ith itho o ut sub s ubsta sta ntia lmig rati ratio o n of o f farmers). farme rs).  Milk co c o nsu mpt io ion n and an d th us la c to se to le leranc ranc e are a re assu a ssu me d to ha v e spre s pread ad w ith pa pasto sto ralis ralism m and we propose that by lo oking at the relevant mutations in and around around the lac tase gene in human populations, w e c an gain insight insight into the origin origin(s) (s) and spread spread o f dairying. dairying. We genotypedthe putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (–13910T) and constructed  haplotypes fr from om se ve ral polymorphisms in in and around the lactase gene (L (LCT CT)) in three  North  No rthA A frica n Berbe Berb e r popu po pulat latio ions ns and a nd c o mpa red o ur resu re sults lts w ith pre prev v io ious usly ly pub p ub lish ed da data ta.. We found that the frequency frequency o f the the –1391 0T allele predicts predicts the frequency o f lacto lacto se tolerance in seve ral Eurasi Eurasian an and North African Berber Berber po pulations but not in most sub-S sub-Saharan aharan  Africa  A frica n po pu pulat latio ions. ns. Our analy ana lyse sess sugg su gges estt th at c o nte mpo rary Berbe Be rbe r popul po pulati atio o ns po p o sse ss the g enetic signatur signaturee of a past migration of pastoralistsfrom pastoralistsfrom the Middl Middlee East and that they share a dairying origin withEuropeans withEuropeans and A sians, but not with sub-S sub-Saharan aharan Africans. Africans.

 Mitoc  Mito c h on dria driall DNA h et etero ero ge gen n ei eity ty in Tu Tun n isia isian n Berb B erbers ers  Berbers  Berb ers liv e in gro ups sc at atte tered red ac ros s North No rthA A frica w ho se o rigin riginss and an d ge ne tic rel relat atio ionsh nsh ips with the ir neighbou rs are are not w ell established. The first first hypervariablesegment o f the mitocho ndri ndrial al DNA DNA (mtDNA) (mtDNA) co ntrol region region w as seque nced in a total of 15 5 individuals from from three Tunisian Tunisian Berber groups and co mpared to othe r North Africans. Africans. The mtD mtDNA NA lineages  fou nd b el elo o ng to t o a c o mm mmo o n se t of o f mtDNA h apl aplo o gro up upss alre ad ady y des d escc ribe d in No rth rthA A frica .  Besid es th thee aut a uto o c ht htho ho no us No rth A frica n U6 h ap aplo lo gro up, a gro up o f L3 line lin e ag ages es characte ri rized zed by the transi transition tion at position 160 41 se ems to be restr restricted icted to No rth Africans, Africans, suggesting that an expansion expansion o f this this group of lineages lineages to ok place around 1 05 00 years ago in  North  No rthA A frica , and an d sprea sp rea d to ne neigh igh bo uring po pul pulati atio o ns. Princ ipa ipall co c o mpo ne nts and th thee co ordinate analyses show that some Berber groups groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-D Chenini -Douiret) ouiret) are o utliers within the NorthAfr NorthAfrican ican ge netic landscape. This outlier  po sit sitio ion n is c o nsis nsiste te nt w ith an is o lat latio ion n pro c es s follo fo llo w ed by ge ne netic tic drift in http://mathil dasanthr opol og ybl og .wor dpr ess.com/2008/05/02/eur asi an- or ig i ns- of- the- ber ber s/

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Eur asi an Or i g in ins of Ber ber s and moder n Nor th Afr i cans. | Ma Mathil da' s Anthr opol og yBlog .

haplotypefrequencies, and w ith the high heterogene ity displayed displayed by Berbers co mpared to  Arab  A rab s am ample ple s as s ho w n in th e A MOVA . Despite Desp ite th this is Berb e r hete he te ro roge ge ne ity ity,, no sig signific nific an ant  t  differences dif ferences w ere found betw een Berber and Arab samples, suggest suggesting ing that th e  Arabi  A rabizat zation ion was m ain ly a cu c u lt ltu u ral proc p roc ess rath r ath er th t h an a dem de m og raph ic replacement.

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Eurasian Orig ins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda' s Anthropolog yBlog .

Genetic studies hav e emphasized the c ontrast betwe en North African and sub-Saharan  po pulations, but th e particula r affinities of the North A frica n mtDNA po ol to that o f Europe, the Near East, and sub-Saharan Africa hav e not prev iously bee n investigated. We hav e analysed 268 mtDNA co ntrol-region seque nces from various Northwe st African po pulations including sev eralSenegale se groups and compared these w ith the mtDNAdatabase. We hav e identified a few mitocho ndrial motifs that are geo graphically specific and likely predate the distribution and dive rsification o f modern language families in North and West A frica. A certain mtDNA mo tif (1 617 2C, 1621 9G), previously found in Alge rian Berbers at high  freque nc y, is appare ntly o mnip resent in No rthw es t A frica and m ay reflect regional  continuity of m ore than 20,000 years. The m ajority of the m aternal ancestors of the Berbers m ust have c om e from Europe and the Near East since the http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Eurasian Orig ins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda' s Anthropolog yBlog .

 Neo lithic .The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial tho ugh no t  dominant mtDNAaffinity with sub-Saharans. This is actually a bit innacurate, as the appro ximate arriv alof a lot of the Eurasian DNA , ex cluding U, coincides withthe Neolithic ex pansion and arriv al of the Capsian culture about 1 0,0 00 y ears ago (from Cranio facial studies of ancient Magre bian skulls). The Capsians show a grac ile build and small face traceable to the e astern Mediterranean.

The faces o f modern North A frica.  Poly m orphism of Six A lu Insertio ns in Morocco: Com parativ e Stu dy between  Arabs, Berbers, an d Casablan ca Residents  Abstract Alu e leme nts are the large st fam ily o f sho rt tande m interspe rsed e leme nts (SINEs) in human who have arisen to a c opy number with an excess of 500 000 copies per haploid  human genome and mobilize through an RNAse po lymerase III derived transcript in a  pro ces s te rmed retro po sition. Severa l features make A lu inse rtio ns a po w erful to ol used in  po pulation ge ne tic stu die s: th e polymo rphic n atu re o f many A lu inse rtio ns, the stab ility of  an Aluinsertion eve nt and, furthermore, the ancestral state of an Alu insertion is know n to be the absenc e (complete and exact) of the Alu element at a particular locus and the presence o f  an Alu insertion at the site that forward mutational change . Here w e report on the distribution of six polymorphic A luinsertions in a gene ralMoroc can po pulation and in the http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Eurasian Orig ins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda' s Anthropolog yBlog .

 Arab a nd Berbe r populations fro m Morocco a nd the ir rela tio nsh ips w ith other populations  previously st udied. Our re sults sho w that the re is a small d iffere nc e b etw een Arabs and   Berbers and that the Arab po pulation w as c lo se r to A frica n po pulations tha n Berber  po pulation w hic h is c lose st to Europ ea ns.  Mitochon drial DNA tran sit b etween West Asia and North Afric a in ferred fro m U6 phy logeography

 Nicole Mac a-Me ye r1 , A na M González1 , Jo sé Pestano 2 , Carlos Flo res1 , Jo sé M Larruga1 and Vic ente M Cabrera1  Publish ed: 1 6 Octo be r 20 03  Abst rac t  World-wide phy logeo graphicdistribution of human co mplete mitoch ondrial DNA sequenc es suggested a We st Asian origin for the auto chtho nous North African lineage U6. We report  here a more de tailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling succe ssive expansions that affecte d  not o nly Africa bu t neighboring regions such as the Near East, the I berian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.  Resu lts  Diverge nc e time s, geo graphic origin a nd e xpa nsio ns o f the U6 mito cho ndrial DNA c lad e, have b een deduc ed from the analysis of 14 co mplete U6 sequenc es, and 56 different  haplotypes, c haracterized by hypervariable segment seque nces and RFLPs. Conclusions The m ost probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. A round   30 ,00 0 y ears ago it spread to Nort h A fric a where it re presen ts a sign ature of  regional c ontinuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib returning to the e ast in Paleo lithic times. Derivative c lade U6a1 signals a posterior mov ement from East Africa bac k to the Maghriband the Near East. This migration co incides with the probable A froasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c c lades, restricted to West   Africa , ha d mo re lo calized e xpansions. U6b pro bably re ac he d th e I be rian Pe ninsula during the Capsian diffusion in North A frica. Two autoc hthono us derivatives o f these clade s(U6b1 and U6c1 ) indicate the arrival of North African se ttlers to the Canarian Archipelago in  prehisto ric time s, most prob ab ly d ue to the Saharan desiccation. The absen ce o f the se Canarian lineages now adays in Africa sugge sts important demographic mov ements in the we stern area of this Continent. The Em erging Tree of West Eurasian m tDNAs: A Syn thesis of Control-Region  Sequ en ces and RFLPs  Va riation in the human mitoc hondrial genome (mtDNA) is now routinely de scribed and  http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Eurasian Orig ins of Berbers and m mode odern rn North Nor th Africans. | Mathilda's Anthropology Anthropology Blog.

used to infer the the histories of peoples, by me ans of one of two procedures, namely, the assaying of RFLP RFLPsthroughout sthroughout the genome and the seque ncing of parts parts of the co ntrol region region (CR) (C R).. Using 95 samples from from the Near East East and no rthwest Caucasus, w e present an analysis based on bo th systems, demonstrate their conco rdance, and, using additional available information, inf ormation, present the most refined refined phy logeny to date of w est Eurasian Eurasian mtDNA. mtDNA. We describe and apply a nome nclaturefor mtDNA mtDNA c lusters. Hypervariable Hypervariable nucleo tides are identified, identif ied, and the relative mutation rates ofthe two systems are evaluate d. We point out  wh ere ambiguities remain. The The identification of signature signature mutations for eac h c luster leads us to apply a hierarchical sch eme for determining determining the cluster co mposition of a sample of Berber Berber speakers, prev prev iously analyzed only for CR variation. variation. We show that that the m ain indigenou s North North African clu ster is is a sister group to the m ost ancient c luster of   Eu rop ropea ean n m tDNA s, from wh whic ich h it div d iv erg erged ed »5 0,0 00 y ea ears rs ago. ag o.  MtDNA Profi Profile le o f West Wes t A fric a Gu in ea ean n s: Towards To wards a Be tt tter er Un de dersta rstan n din g of o f th e  Sen  Se n eg egam am bia Regi Region on  Ale  A lexan xandra dra Ro sa e t al. al . The matrilineal matrilineal genetic co mposition of 37 2 samples from the Republic of Guiné-B Guiné-Bissau issau (West   Africa  A frica n co c o as ast) t) w as stu s tudie die d us ing RFLPs and part partial ial seq s eq ue nc ing o f the mtDNA c o ntro l and  co ding region. region. The m ajority of the m tDNA lineages of Guine ans (94%) (94%) belong to West African specific sub-clu sters of L0-L3 L0-L3 haplogroups. haplogroups . A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h) (L3h) that is found found in bo th eastern and w estern Africa Africa is present at mode rately low fr freque eque ncies in Guinean populations. A  A n on -ran do dom m dist ribu tio n o f hapl h aplog ogrou rou ps U5 in th e Fu la group, the U6 am ong th e “Brame” “Brame” linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group,, suggests a co rr group rrelation elation be twe en the genetic and linguistic linguistic affili affiliation ation of Guinean Guinean  po pu pulat latio ions. ns. The presenc e of M1 in Balanta populations supports the e arli arlier  er  suggestion of the ir Sudane se origin. origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on th e othe r hand, were wer e found to be restricted to populations that are thou ght to represent th e descen dants of a southern e xpansion of Berbers. Berbers. Parti  Particc ula r hap lo loty type pe s, fo un und d almo al mo st  exclusive ly in East-Afr East-African ican populations, w ere found in some e thnic groups w ith an oral  tradition claiming Sudanese origin.  A p o ssib le a nc ie ient nt migra m igratio tio n from A sia to t o A frica w as pro p ropo po se d by b y Cruc ian ianii et al. (20 0 2) to to explain the presenc presenc e of some unusual Y -chromoso me lineages identified identified in West Africa. Africa.  Haplog  Hapl og rou p R1 (de fin ed b y M173 m u ta tatio tio n ), with ou t fu rth er bran b ran c h de defin fin in g m utation s (M269 (M269 and M17) M17) specific to Europeans, accou nted for ~40% of the Y chrom osomes in North-Cam North-Cam eroon eroon,, wh il ilee not yethaving been sampled sampled elsew here in  Africa  A frica . More Mo re dat d ata a from fro m Central Cen tral and We Weste ste rn A frica are ne ed ed to c as astt light lig ht o n th e o rigin o f  such idiosyncratic mtDNA mtDNA and Y c hromoso me lineages. Thus, our U5 sequenc es from from the Gu inean Fu lbe people co rr rroborate oborate Cruc Cruc iani’ iani’s s hy pothe sis of a prehistoric m igrati igration on from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present  day restricted an d localised distribution distribution  Alu  A lu in inse sertio rtio n pol p oly y m orp orph h ism s in NW A fric a an d th e I be berian rian Pen in su sula: la: e v ide n c e http://mathil dasanthr opol og ybl og .wor dpr ess.com/2008/05/02/eur asi an- or ig i ns- of- the- ber ber s/

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 for a stro s tron n g ge n et etic ic bo bou u n dary th rou gh th e Gibra G ibralt ltar ar St rait raits s  Abs  A bstra tracc t A n analy an aly sis o f 11 A lu inse in se rtio n po ly lymo mo rphi rphisms sms (A CE, TPA25 TPA2 5 , PV 92 , A PO, FXII IB,  D1, A 25 , B65 , HS2.43, HS2.4 3, HS HS3 3 .2 .23 3 , and an d HS4.65 HS4.6 5 ) has ha s be e n pe rform rformed ed in se v e ral NW A frica n (Northern, (N orthern, Western, and Southeastern Moroc cans; Saharawi; Alge ri rians; ans; Tunisians) Tunisians) and   Ib e rian (Basqu (Bas qu es es,, Catala Cat ala ns, and A nda lus lusian ians) s) po pul pulat atio ions. ns. Ge ne netic tic dis dista tanc nc es and princ ipa ipal  l  co mponent analyses sho w a clear differentiati differentiation on o f NW NW African African and I berian groups of  samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical   Medit erra erran n ea ean n S ea b arrie r . The restriction restriction to gene fl flow ow may be attributed to the navigationalhazards across the Straits, Straits, but cultural facto facto rs must also also hav e played a role.  Somee de  Som d e gre e o f gene ge ne flo flow w from sub -Sah -Sahara aran n A frica c an b e de d e te tecc te d in the t he so ut uthe he rn part o f   North  No rth A frica and in Sahara Sah araw w i and Sou South thea ea ste rn Moro Mo rocc c ans ans,, as a resul re sultt of o f a co c o ntin uo us g en enee  flow  flo w ac ro ross ss the t he Sah Sahara ara d es esee rt that th at h as c rea te d a so s o uth -no rth c line o f sub-Sah sub -Sahara aran n A frica influence inf luence in North Africa. I Africa. Ibe be rian sam ple s sh ow a su bst an tia tiall de gre gree e o f  hom ogeneity and fall within within th e c luster of European-ba European-based sed genetic diversity. diversity. The population history o f North North A fr frica ica is particularly particularly interesting because , although the region belongs to co ntinental Africa, Africa, its history has bee n co mpletely different different from from the sub Saha ran pa rt. The Th e peo p eo plin pling g o f the reg io ion n ha s be en influ influee nc ed by tw o stro s tro ng g eo gra graph phic ical  al  barriers: barr iers: the Sahara Desert Desert to the south, w hich splits the A fr frican ican co ntinent into into tw o differenti dif ferentiated ated regions, and the Mediterr Mediterranean anean Sea to the north, wh ich separates the  Europe  Euro pean an a nd A frica n co c o nti ntine nents nts.. The se ge o gra graph phic ical al b arrie rs may ma y hav h av e c o nst nstrain rained  ed  human move ments in NorthAfr NorthAfrica ica into an east-west gradient, gradient, although the y we re not  impermeable to human mo ve ments. Durin During g the first first half of the Holoc Holoc ene, the humid climate that prevailed in the Sahara Sahara produc produc ed a rece ding of the desert allowing human settlements, but o ver the past 50 00 years, the Sahar Sahara a Desert Desert has suffered suffered a gradual aridif aridification ication and has bec ome as dry as it is now adays (Said (Said and Faure Faure 1 990). Histori Historicalreco calreco rds document  extensive trade routes that we re established across the desert betw een sub-Saharan Afri Africa ca and the north coast. In c ontrast, since since the time o f the Phoe nicians, the the c ity-based settlement   pat te rn of o f the NW A frica n co c o as astt inte int e gra grate ted d th e area a rea into th thee Me dit ditee rrane an w o rld. The seaw ard orientation orientation o f populations persisted persisted and, similar to the de sert, separated the  Maghre  Mag hre b (NW A frica ) from the t he res restt of o f Afric a to th thee so s o ut uth h (Ne w ma man n 1 99 995 5 ). Moreo Mo reo v er, du during ring the 8th c entury AD, Berbers Berbers from from North Morocco and Algeria under Arab leadership crossed  the Mediterranean Sea Sea and o cc upied the I berian Peninsula Peninsula for for almost eight c enturies, although the demographic impact o f the conque st is thought to be limi limited ted (Hitti (Hitti 199 0). Untill recently, few genetic studies h ave bee n performed Unti performed in NW Africa. Africa. In the latest  co mpilati mpilation on o f classical genetic mark markers ers in North North A fr frica ica (Bosch e t al. 1 997 ), the first  first   princ ipa ipall co c o mpo ne nent nt (PC) o f gene ge ne freq ue nc ie iess sho sh o w e d an ea stst-w w es estt patte pa tte rn of o f gene ge netic tic differenti dif ferentiation, ation, in agreement w ith the ge ographical barrier barrier imposed by the Sahara and the  Med ite rrane an an.. Rec en entt w o rk with w ith au auto to so ma mall sho sh o rt tande ta nde m repe re pe ats (STRs; Bosc h e t al. al . 200 0), mitocho ndri ndrial al DNA DNA (mtDNA) (mtDNA) sequenc es (Rando et al. 1998), and Y -chromoso me haplotypes (Bosc (Bosc h et al. 1999) has 1999)  has suggested that th e gene flow between between NW Africa and Iberia and that between sub-Saharan A fri frica ca and NW Africa Africa has been sm all.  MtDNA v aria ariatio tio n in i n NW A fric a (Ran do e t al. al . 199 1 998 8 ) has h as sh own a high h igh freq u en c y http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/ http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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(up to 25%) of geographic geographic ally specific sequenc es (nam ed haplogroup U6) that is essentially absent in th e Iberian Peninsula (from 0 % in An dalusians to 5% in  Portu  Port u gu ese ). Th e m tDNA an aly sis h as sh own a lim ite d ge n e flow fl ow from fro m Eu rop rope e to to  NW A fric a th at c ou ld be b e at trib u te ted d to rec en t h u m an m ov em en ts. ts.The The study study of Y chromo some haplo types (Bosc (Bosc h et al. 1999) show s little little admixture admixture betw een NW Africa Africa and  the I berian Peninsula. Peninsula. The The study of 21 autoso mal STR STR loci in NW Afri Africa ca ha s also sho wn a clear genetic difference difference b etw een NW African African populations and Ibe ri rians, ans, although some degree of gene flow into Southern Iberia (Andalusians) (Andalusians) can be detec ted (Bosc (Bosc h et al. 2000 ).  Div ers ersité ité m ito c h on dria driale le d e la po popu pu lat io ion n de d e Tafo ralt (12 .0 00 an s bp – m aro aroc c ): un e approch approch e génétiqu e a l’étude l’étude du peu plem ent de l’afr l’afrique ique du nord. (Mitocho (M itocho ndri ndrial al diversity in the the Taforalt population population (circa 1 2,00 0 BP, Moroc Moroc co ): a genetic approach to th e study of the peo pling of North Africa.) Africa.)   ABSTRACT: The population exhumed from from the archae olo gical site of Taf Taforalt oralt in Morocc o (12 ,00 0 years  BP) is a valu v alu ab le s o urc e o f informat inform atio ion n to w ard a be tte r know kno w le ledg dgee o f the se ttl ttlee me nt o f   North  No rthern ern A frica reg io ion n and an d pro v ide s a re v o lut lutio iona nary ry w ay to spe c ify th e o rigin o f Ibero Ib ero  Maurusi  Mau rusian an po p o pu pulat latio ions. ns. A  An n c ie ien n t DNA was ex trac te ted d from fro m 31 bo n e rem re m ain s from Taforalt.The Taf oralt.The HVS1 fragme nt of th e m itoch ondrial DNA DNA c ontrol region was PCR PCR-am plifi plified ed and directly directly sequen ced. Mitoch ondrial diversity diversity in Taforalt Taforalt shows the absence o f sub-Saharan sub-Saharan h aplogroups suggesting suggesting th at Ibero-Maurusian Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.O region. Our results reveal a probable local e vo lution of Taforalt Taforalt population and a genetic co ntinui ntinuity ty in North Africa. Africa.  Eurasiat  Eurasi atic ic c o mpo ne nent nt (J/ (J/T, T, H, U et V ) and No North rth A frica n co c o mpo ne nt (U6 ). Genetic structure of Taforalt:  Eu rasia rasiatic tic Com po pon n en t : H, U, JT, V: 90 .5 %  Nort h A fric an c om po pon n en t: U6 : 9.5 9. 5 % 42, 8% (9/21 )

H or U 

14, 2% (3/21)

JT 

2 individuals individuals (9,5%) U6 Essential ssentially, ly, the DNA DNA studies of Berbers obse rv e that they are mostly simil similar ar to Eurasians, Eurasians, and that they  appear to have arriv ed in North North Africa about 30 ,00 0 y ears ago plus (Mechta (Mechta Afaloupeople), with with a seco nd wave of colonisation in the neolithic neolithic from the Near East confirmed confirmed by the cranio facial measurements (Loring Brace) Brace ) of neolithic North A fri fricans. cans. Then then migrated South during the saharan wetphase wetphase about 1 2,00 0 y ears ago, with Eurasian Eurasian Y c hromoso me now making making up 40% of  http://mathil dasanthr opol og ybl og .wor dpr ess.com/2008/05/02/eur asi an- or ig i ns- of- the- ber ber s/

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Cameroo Ca meroo n’s Y c hromoso mes as a result (although (although less in in other areas).  All  A ll thes th esee pre p re hist or ic Nor thA fric ans ar aree des d escc rib ed as mos m ostly tly sim similar ilar to o the r Medit Me diter er ra rane nean an Cauc Cau c asi asian an popu lations, with a lesser similarity to Nubians from the Wadi Halfa Halfa area. There’s a simplified simplified ex planati planation on of ancient North African African population mov ements here Edit to Blog. Blog... To the mad A frocentrist ‘Nubian’ ‘Nubian’ who claims that these DNA DNA studies prov e Berbers are all blac k and that the white Berbers Berbers are the desce ndants of slav slav es… Please show where any of these studies say that.. Because they don’t, at all. They They point out that Berbers are mostly Caucasian and and that they they ’ve be en in North North Africa a very long time. Explain why ev ery anthropologist who’s looked at Mahgrebian Mahgrebian bones in the Holoc Holoc ene desc ribes them as mainly mainl y Caucasia Caucasian n Mediterranean. Explain why the Egyptians uniformly portr portrayed ayed Liby ans as white white Caucasians, Caucasians, as they North  Afric  A fric ans d id on o n their th eir ow own n art ar t wo rk. Explain why all the contem pora porary ry art and descriptions descriptions of the Moors all show a majority  Caucasian Ca ucasian population.  Why th e Guanches Guanches,, an an isolated North A frican group sinc e th e BC’s BC’s were all white people  with  wi th ple n ti tifu full blon bl on de des, s, if all Berbe Be rbe rs we re blac b lac k u n ti till ll ‘Mo ori sh sla slav v ery wh it iten en ed u p North Africa’ Africa’? ?  Also  A lso , for tho se who insi insist st in the t he fac fa c e o f ov er erwhe whe lmin lming g ev e v ide nc e the t hey y we were re all b lac k in Nort No rth h A fric a until un til European slav es whitened them up..

From the Roman era in Liby a. All the Roman era mosaics show a mainl mainly y Caucasoid light light skinned skinned population in North North A fri frica, ca, as doe s the roc k art.

http://mathil dasanthr opol og ybl og .wor dpr ess.com/2008/05/02/eur asi an- or ig i ns- of- the- ber ber s/

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Carthage era coins, with two coins showing Hannibal.

The Tassili ladies, from A lgeria (age unc lear, but some time in the BC). I hav e a wider c ollection o f images here. I also have a 1 6th century image of the contempo rary Guanches; pure blood North Africans with no European o r sub Saharan ancestry mixed in, isolated on the Canary islands since about 5 00 BC, alone for about 1,0 00 y ears until the Spanish invaded.

In the b rown skin clothing. As y ou c an see he is pretty indistinguishable from the Spaniard holding him. I would also like to point out that the T uareg at not ‘the only real Berbers’ as is often claim ed. In fact, they are re lated to the Beja, and are relativ ely rece nt arrivals in North West Africa who have adopted Berber custo ms. They are also about half Eurasian in ancestry . The recent co ntribution of  Europeans to the North African genepool is 4% for males, and probab ly less than 2% for females; 12,0 00 http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 y ear old DNA stud ies sho w only Eurasian de riv ed mt DNA in anc ient North A fric ans from Moro cco. It isn’t likely to be v ery high though, as the majority of Barbary slaves were males. A goo d comparison  would be the Arab ian peninsu la. A bo ut 8 m illio n or so slav es were impor ted fro m Eaes t A fric a into this area, but only about 1 0% of the Mt DNA there is A frican. By c ontrast about 1 .25 million Europeans ended up on the Barbary c oast, so this is unlikely to hav e made a difference of more than a couple o f  perce nt to the whole. Way more blac k African slave s were imported into the area during the Barbary  slavery era, so the net difference is probably that they are slightly darker than they used to be. I’d also like to point out to those wh o feel the need to spam m e with descriptions of  Berbers as black or brown from o ld European tex ts… Europeans used these words differently back then. Brown was used to describe any one with a moderate tan, black was a skin tone of a dark tan seen with black hair and dark ey es. Ladies and children had white skin. Europeans co mmonly called any one with black hair and a heavy tan black, so believing that black in medieval/re naissance literature refers to a black A frican is incorre ct. In fact, yo u can find references to Jews, Turks and Spaniards as being black. Gy psies were still referred to as black into the 20 th century . See below. Black Africans are referred to as Ethiopians in these old tex ts. The men we re very black, w ith their hair frizzled, the wo men w ere the mo st ugly and the blackest that we re ever seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , w ho by pretended to look into peo ples hands, to tell them what had or wo uld happen to them…” p. 1 53 o f The Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1 827 by T & J. Swo rds? Photo Arabian gypsies , European gypsies James Michene r’s Iberia Spanish Trave ls and Reflectio ns 19 68. 18?? – “We w ere not far from Pressburg wh en at o nce we heard in the distance, a singing, shouting and hallooing which c ontinually grew nearer. Presently we met four wago ns, in wh ich a brown c ompany of gypsies were seate d. It was a curious sight. Their sat men and  wo men, girls and boys all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array, with lo ng shining hair, smeared after Hungarian fashion w ith lard…We gazed at them in asto nishment…”  Wanderings of a Journeyman Tailor through Europe and the East: During the years 1 824 to 1 84 COMMENTS POLICY . Unfortunately necessary , as Afrocentrists feel the need to spam this page with moronic c omments. All comments need to be approv ed by me before they’ll appear. They won’t be posted unless… They are an intelligent comment I’m in a bad mood and feel like ridiculing someone (Dana/Don). I’d also like to point o ut that NOT ONE SINGLE ANTHROPOLOGIST takes the v iew that there ’s bee n any  kind of po pulation change in North A frica since the Neolithic. Take that as a hint.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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162 RESPONSES TO “EURASIAN ORIGINS OF BERBERS AND MODERN NORTH AFRICANS.” Pingback: X chromos ome study of Mediterranean populations « Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.

xvcxvxc | Novem ber 2, 2008 at 9:39 am | Reply Saami and Berbers–an unexpec ted mitoc hondrial DNA link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1 57 915 43

Pingback: Tom joj » Are there any northwewt african tribes?

Lisa Dupri | December 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm | Repl y It’s really a shame, a disgrace that u just deleated an entry made by Dana Reynolds Marniche of the Rasta Limewhire website Team whi studies allot of bo oks about the ancient Berbers and discriptions of Romans, Greeks and Arabs. Who actually prov e that Berbers are paternally  Blacks, and hav e a maternal white slave, greek, Sea People,Roman, Arab, Turk origin. Can’t  y ou handle the truth? Why a re y ou censo ring this blog whe n so mebo dy po sts hist or ical fac ts  with the ir so urces? So Sad, o h so sad .

mathilda37 | December 9, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Repl y Why are you ce nsoring this blog whe n somebo dy posts historical facts w ith their http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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sources?  I deleted it bec ause I’v e got an entry specific to that POS on another blog, where I deco nstruct a fair chunk of it and display what a steaming heap it is. She co mpletely d ecided to o mit the numerous anthropological studies, historic descriptions and co ntemporay Spanish artwork that show a mostly Caucasoid Berber/ Arab force attacking Spain. BTW, DNA studies and anthropologic al studies have shown ev ery time that there were sev eral Eurasian migrations into N A frica from abo ut 30 k ago and 8k ago. Carletoon Coon (who the ‘team’ pretend say North A fricans were b lack) actually said that the modern Mediterranoid Berbers hav e been in situ at least 15 ,00 0 y ears. DNA studies on ancient N  Af bones ho w Eurasian DNA fro m 1 2,000 y ears ago . Coon on Berbers The third discrete racial eleme nt in Africa is the Caucasoid, w hich, as indicated  earlier, first entered the co ntinent in massive invasions about 1 5,0 00 years ago, c ertainly from Western Asia and po ssibly also from Europe. The desce ndants of those invade rs who are still fully o r essentially Caucasoid are the Berbers. Cavalli Sforza on Berbers The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean c oast w ere probably Caucasoids. There is little doub t that they came from the Middle East, and they have oc cupied the region since the Neo lithic or even earlier. Experienced  sailors like other Neolithic peoples, the y co lonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards co nquered these islands in the fifteenth c entury, they found a distinct population w ith some blond-haired and blue-eyed pe ople -traits that  are still evident among so me Berbers in Moroc co . They spoke Guanche, an  Afroasiatic Berber la nguage . By th e time the Spanish arrive d, the y had lost the ability to sail.  Luigi Luc a Cav alli-Sforza ,  Also , the wo rd ‘br own’ for skin was use d to mean ‘a t an’ in nor the rn Eur op eans, and anyo ne of gypsy colo uring was called black. We called blac k Africans ‘Ethiopians’, not  blac k. So any desc iption of North A fric ans b ein g ‘blac k’ only me ans t hey looked  Arab/ darkish. Try reading som e pro pe r te x t bo oks on the moo rish inv asion. The Arabs and Spanish kept ve ry good reco rds on which Berber tribes were Ethiopians. Of all that list of drivel, only the top entry with ‘affrights it’s cradle’ actually desc ribes black berbers. Some of the moors used to dy e their hair black so they didn’t look like the Spaniards. So half of that stuff they claim means ‘black A frican’ translates into mode rn language as http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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moderately tanned or middle Eastern in colouring She also left out that the all Berber genetically Guanches were described as tall and tanned and handsome with a great many blonde s in their number. These were nativ e north  Afric ans that nev er saw Euro pe ans unt il the Spanish wipe d them ou t. The Eurasian maternal co ntribution goes back before written history , it’s from 1 2,00 0  y ears and o lde r (ther e is solid pro of fro m ancient bo nes). The Ber be rs hav e pate rna lly  native north African, not ‘black’ Y chromosomes yo u moron. The M81 Y chromsome is nev er seen south of the Sahara, and ve ry unc ommon in black Africans. BTW, Tuareg are newc omers to the North A frica are a. They o riginated in East Africa, are half Eurasian, and aren’t ge netically Bebers. But of course, y ou can’t handle the truth. That’s why y ou nev er see the any of the images or historical descr iptions or any r elev ant quotes from anthropologists on that POS site.

Justin | December 14, 2008 at 10:27 am | Reply I fully agree with Mathilda37 ! I’m Portuguese o n both male & female lineages since generations and generations. My  ancestors are all from the northern part of the actual Portugal (former Gallaicia). My paternal grandfather was tall, blue-eye d and with a v ery fair skin. Not at all the Mediterranean ty pical person!. I am my self tall (1.82m), green-ey ed and fair skin. So, some months ago I subsc ribed for a c omplete Y -DNA & mt-DNA tests. The results are: Y  DNA: E1 b1 b1 b (M81 mod al) & mt DNA : H. Conclusio n, I’m a kind of Celtibe rbe r! I wasn’t surprised at all, knowing that berber p resence in the northern part of the Iberian Peninsula is much more o lder than the Muslim invasion of Iber ia in the early 8th century .

luis | December 17, 2008 at 12:09 am | Reply Justin,I hav e E1b1 b1 b2,tracing my father lineage ancestors I found all where pasiegos since 165 0 I wonder how this pasiego population isolated in west Cantabria got there and  whe n.The idea of a gro up o f ber be rs? co nc entrate d in a small area as a result of ar ab inv asio n in 7th century do not seem very accurate to me.May I understand , by y ou comment, that mayb e pasiegos mov ed south to N Africa? By the way I have also H mtdna

Justin | December 19, 2008 at 8:22 pm | Reply Luis, The conce ntration of E1b 1 b1 b2 in the Pasiego pop ulation is a mistery and still under hot debates. One thing is sure and well c ov ered in this blog, the E-M81 subclade is found mainly  in the northwestern part of Africa. So, the Berber prese nce in Ibe ra started from Africa to our http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 be autiful p eninsu la and no t the o pposite . The only thing I wanted to say is that the presence o f Berbers in Ibera is a very v ery old story   whic h start ed well befo re the  Arab inv asion in the early 8th c entury . It’s mainly true in the no rth of the p eninsu la (No rth Portugal/Galicia, asturias, cantabria). Berbers were already there be fore the Romans arrival…

Justin | December 21, 2008 at 11:20 am | Reply Luis, Here y ou’ll find a lot of information on the E1 b1 b1 b presenc e in yo ur beautiful Cantabria region. http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=881.15  Y ou are am ou ng the o lde st inhab itants o f Iber ia (it goe s back to p re hist or ic times). A s i said in my prev ious message you r ancestors were there well before the islamic exp ansion in Iberia (7 th – 8th century ), yes they came from North africa, but well before the islamisation of Africa.  At that time, the nor thwestern part of Africa was po pulated by white c aucaso id A mazigh tribes (Berbers). During the islamic e xpansion in Ib eria, y our anc estors were already Christians, and that, since the beginning of christianity in the Ibe ric peninsula. They surely participated at the  battles a gainst the “ Maur os”…

NubianMoor | December 24, 2008 at 4:48 pm | Reply Ev en the Kaby les where Black and some v erry dark with an exe ption of a few white tribes till  v er y recently !!! Here is an acc ount from 1 834 by Scotman Thomas Campbell: The Kabylesdre ss like the A rabs and a part from a few tribes, are bro wn complex ioned and black haired p. 1 09 Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 1 8th Century, A nn Thomson. Published 1 987 by E. J. Bull In 1 890 was written “The Kabyles o r Kabaily o f Algerian and Tunisian territoriesbesides tillage, work the mines c ontained in their mountainsThey live in huts made of branches o f  trees and cov ered with clay which resemb le the Magalia of the old NumidiansThey are of  middle stature, their comp lexion bro wn and sometimes nearly black.” from The Ency cloped ia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. A llen Company p. 261 V olume I 1 890. Other acco unts are similar. ITS CLEARLY SAY S SOMETHIMES NEARLY BLACK!!!! BLACK !!! GO BUY THE BOOK AND READ IT Y OURESELF what do y ou hav e to say on that? This time we are no t talking about ancient “black”terms but 1 830-7 0-80’s BLACK, so ev en the Kabyles where Black Berbers http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 who whe re whitened by the Slav e Trade and White I nv asio ns. Dont forget t he fact that the Kabyles hav e the highest c once ntration of SKIN cancer in Africa. Search it on the NET. This is inrefutable truth that Berbers always hav e bee n Black. Even the Northern Ones.

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply  Hone y (explains gently) Europeans called any one with black hair and a heavy tan ‘black’. ‘Brown’ was used to describe Europeans with a tan. We used to c all Gy psies black  complex ioned right into the 20th century here. Y ou should beco me more familiar with how Europeans used the wo rds black, white and bro wn in describing skin tones. The word ‘black’ only c ame to be co mmonly use d for black Africans in the 20th ce ntury. There is plenty of artwork from ancient North Africa, and it doesn’t depict black A fricans living there in any kind of numbers. The DNA and skull stuides all show a c aucasoid population in residence for about 30 k or more.

shanevella | May 11, 2010 a t 11:57 pm | I re ad this statement by Stunny Pharouk who happens to be half Egy ptian and half  German, but who was taken as b eing Black ev en thou gh his skin is fair. He was treate d  badly in Germany be caus e he has wav y hair that go es kinky in the wa ter but goe s Indian if he drinks ascor bics and is V EGAN. He wrote this: “That being so; – our wall reliefs of Egyp tians depict our ancester s with woolly hair that billows out ower their shoulders with nubica (nupticals/ twisted c urls-knots) at the e nds? Albinoism is when racism dec ided to keep c olour o ut, and in the Egyp tian and Coptic language a “sitera” or a sitrey ” is a woman who is a setter, and doesn’t imply rac ial incest at all. Africans always c all their women “sisters” – “Sos- àsat” meaning “hip-sitters” in sexu al terms. The term denotes the I ndian word “sutera” meaning “to sow a seed” o r to “join with a stitch” – “to marry with a needle”, which are keen to proc reation and are also nonkatalistic unlike genetic sociological incest practic ed by Europeans phobic of colour  who re ad the To ra!” – I think he was “ sko ffing y ou off!” as he likes to say . A nthro po logy  is probably an old school o f racism. Most people outside of Europe are mix ed. Its a fact. Sexual attraction is more powerful than racism.

luis | December 24, 2008 at 6:25 pm | Reply Justin thank you for y ou kind reply.I live in Spain and I know pretty well the area were pasiegos live:four small valleys west cantabria.One of the reasons I had to inve stigate my dna  was t hat in my family tre e (with almo st 1 00 p eo ple )start ing aro und i60 0 and with little endogamy ,no one had a basque surname.¡Those v alleys are less than ten miles from  V izc ay a!A lso the area has hundred s of cav es,ma ny with prehistric paintings.

Don Blake | December 24, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply The problem with this study is that it tries to claim that the migrants out of Africa that evo lved into N lineages 30,000 ye ars ago are somehow Caucasians, even if they only had http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 just left Afric a. Like wise , it goe s on to claim that the migrant s carry ing U6 a who they say  possibly originated in East Africa were Caucasians as well. First, Caucasian is a reference to a set of Mountains in Southern Russia. It is not a pheno ty pe. Caucasians therefore do not originate in East Africa. And white skin only dev eloped thousands of y ears after the migrations of humans out of Africa and into the far north of  Europe and Asia. These migrants from East AFrica did not simply turn into white Caucasians  by v irtue of c ro ssing form A fric a into A sia. Y et t his is t he u nderly ing methodo logy be ing applied in this study, which stresses Caucasia as a basis for human biodiv ersity, y et COMPLETELY ignore s the fact that all humans or iginate in Africa and the refore that all human biodive rsity o riginates in A frica among black A fricans. Claiming that North Africans  were indige nous Cau casians is a bo ut as illo gic al as it ge ts, especially considering that a ny   back migr atio ns from Eurasia 3 0,0 00 y ears ago were of blac k Afric an deriv ed peop le. Putting Caucasian into this only serv es to pretend that these o riginal settlers of Eurasia did not co me from Africa, were not the basis of the biodiversity in Eurasia and that these peo ple  were all b lac k for m os t of their time IN Eur asia up until may be 1 0-20 ,0 00 y ears ago. A ll o f  the regions surrounding Africa would have bee n initially p opulated by black Africans, even after mutations like M and N. M and N do not signify the e v olution of white skin, they only  signify random changes in genetic mutations. Try ing to pretend o therwise is simply  dishonest.

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:34 am | Reply The problem w ith this study is that it tries to c laim that the migrants out of Africa that  evo lved into N lineages 30,00 0 y ears ago are somehow Caucasians eve n if they o nly had just le ft Africa Let m e just stop you there.  A, I’m no t letting y ou repe at that bo llo cks endlessly , so jus t giv e it u p and go to Egy ptsearch. Y ou’d think that not one single anthropologst agrees with the bulllshit y ou are try ing to spout as gospel here (eve n the black ones) might clue you in to the fact y ou are incorrect. B, They hadn’t ‘just left Africa’. LMAO. Where do y ou ge t y our info? Off the bac k of a c ereal packet? There are modern human re mains at least 7 0K old in China, and signs of  continued mode rn human occ upation in the Far East after the Toba ex plosion 7 4k ago.  Add o n the roughly 1 5k it wo uld hav e taken for the po pulation to hav e e x pan ded to the far East, and yo u are looking at at least 85K for an OOA e xit date and pro bably older than 10 0k, as some o f the remains in China are looking good for ov er the 90 k date. So a minimum of 45k plus a founder effect is more than eno ugh to stop them being ‘black   Afric ans’, which is what y ou seem to be claim ing here. C, The moder n human remains from North Africa about the date of the bac k migration are so similar to the Paleolithic European o nes they used to get c alled North African Cro http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Magnons, and are ro ughly similar to modern Europeans, if a bit more ro bust. They are roughly Caucasoid, if not an exac t match for modern Europeans/ North A fricans. In fact there’s a European c arv ing called the Brno head y ou should look at, as these people about 26k ago were pretty c losely related to the North Africans, and it’s very conspicuosly not a black looking face. D, Y et again I see that b ullshit abou t that one mutation turning black people white. DUH, NO. It o nly acc ounts for a third of the differenc e betwee n lighter African groups like the San, who can be a v ery light caramel co lour when out of the tropical sun (I know, I’m related to one). It turne d Europeans from a strong tan like the middle Eastern people to pasty p ink, not from black to white.  First, Caucasian is a refere nc e to a set o f Mounta ins in Sou thern Russia. I t is no t a  pheno type  Also , y ou seem t o think Cau caso id means white .  NO. It me ans Caucasoid, it is a  pheno type, and it includes south A sians like Pakistanis and North Africans. The location it  was o riginally att ac hed to is me aningle ss, as the wor d no w re fers to a skull shape and racial grouping. all human biodive rsity o riginates in Africa among blac k Africans. NO, again. Since masses of mutations seen in modern humans don’t  have an African origin, like pale skin and blue ey es for a starter. This is a fallacy often repeated by the ignorant. In essence , yo u’ve p osted a long block of waffle that demonstrates how little y ou know. The fact that y ou used the word ‘Caucasia’ is quite frankly laughable. The North Africans, in their ancient art and bones, show themselve s to be mainly Caucasoid people. This co mment was only go od for one thing, it’s a good ex ample of all the bullshit that  Afrocentrics be liev e.

Justin | December 27, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Reply NubianMoor, this is ex actly because they are not black that Berbers in general (not only  Kabyles) have the highest skin cance r rate under the sunny c limate of north Africa!

Justin | December 27, 2008 at 2:17 pm | Reply Luis, y ou’re welco me, that’s always a pleasure to ex change with a brother from Iberia.

The Bass | December 28, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply The only DNA e v idence we se e is U6, which has a patchy distribution in North Africa and isn’t ev en the predo iminate mtDNA haplogroup. Cro-Magnons were no t Caucasoid and do not http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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closely resemble any of the modern popu klations in North A frica and Europe. The Euros have presented no ev idence o f “caucasoids” in North Africa since 30,0 00 ye ars ago

C.Bass | December 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Reply  Anc ient North A fric ans a re *NOT* “ Cauacsoids” and the ancient crania are mo rpho logic ally  distinct from the mo dern one s, we c an have this debate right here and Mr Bass will win.

mathilda37 | December 28, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Reply Since I have specific studies of the bones in North Africa that descibes them as either Caucasoid o r mediterannoid, I’ll pass o n that Charlie.

Justin | December 28, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Reply Interesting article found in the Sco tsgenealogy website: http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/ Unfortunately , There is no direct link, so once in the website, just follow these two steps: – On the left menu c lick on “On-line Informatio n” – Then c lick on the artic le “OUR ANCIENT COUSINS THE BERBERS”

mathilda37 | December 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Reply Cool. thank y ou. I’d heard of the story , but nev er seen much de tail about it. Far Western Europeans loo k a fair bit like North A fricans. I ’m of Welsh ancestry , and when I pick up ev en a mild tan I cou ld pass for a Berber woman. We tend to look more Mediterranean than other Northern Europeans.

Justin | December 29, 2008 at 12:38 pm | Reply  Y ou ’re absolut ely right Mathilda37 . That ’s sure ly due to the p ost-LGM Ibe ria spread Towards the European no rthwestern parts.  Y ou are a “CeltiBerb er ” as Luis and me!

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 1:47 am | Reply Hi – interesting post Matilda, I’v e read a few of yo ur blogs and alway s found them useful for my own amataeur rese arch! OK – about the abov e thread o n the Welsh/ancient British and Berber connection… From what I’ve be en looking at over the past two y ears, it seems to me that the Iberian refugia of the last glacial peopled a surprisingly div erse number of cultures. A s I understand the Berbers like the Basques and British have a higher perc entage of rhesus negative , as well as startlingly similar physical apearenc es as the lady abov e states (I saw this too in Crete, I http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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have a photograph of a Cretan shepherd who looked as if he’d marched up from the  v alle y s!LOL) On a sid e no te, I read o ne genetic r eport whic h atteste d that the m ain haplogroups in Crete were from North Africa, I notice o n y our illustration of rock art, that the women c losely resemble those of the Minnoans. There is also the que stion of the X haplogroup found in the Clovis c ulture Native A mericans like the Ojibwa, I think the genetisist Steve Jones co mments on this, say ing that it is also found in the Welsh. Berber music too has many co rrespondenc es with Irish and Gaelic as Bob Quinn pointed out so me 30 y ear ago and has, I see, republished with a seal of approv al from Pro. Cuncliffe! Then there is that tennuou s co nnec tion to the Saamis way up in the North o f Euro pe! WOW! I think the co nsensus these day s is that the term ‘Celt’ is redundant and those of us on the British Isles have more in co mmon with Spain and po ssibly the Middle East than the fabled ‘La Tene’ culture. (look too at the megalithic c ulture which seemed to o riginate in North  Afric a.) I to o read that article o n Sco tsgenealogy and was v er y sur prise d by his c om parison s to Gaelic. I have argued with a friend who is mor e of a Linguist than I, that i believ e the indigenous British languages we c all today ‘Celtic’ although Indo-European, hav e a strong  Afro-Asiatic flav ou r, as if tho se who ado pted the m had spoken ano the r language be fore, I  be liev e for instance the sy ntax and gramm ar in Welsh is similar to Afro-Asiatic . The Amizigh are a fascinating people, thanks for the info and some what ‘liv ely ’ debate:-)

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 2:05 am | Reply PS…on a side no te – a while bac k I c ouldn’t help noticing that the Linear A/B script of the Minoans bore quite a resemb lence to anc ient Berber. I can’t beleive no one has spotted this, mayb e they hav e? I get the impression they hav e been looking towards Greec e and further into Asia, but with the genetic data, surely it’s obvious where the language origniated – but hey what do I know? It’s been a while since I was an under-grad!!LOL

mathilda37 | December 31, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Rep ly  Y ep, the Welsh are A tlantic Medite rrano id ty pes. My mo the rs fam ily are all sma ll, dark and round faced with a tendencey to tan quickly. The Celtic languages had an Afro Asiatic language type grammar structure, no t an Indo European one. They think Indo European  words were ov er laid onto a A A gra mma r structur e when farming arriv ed (IE seems to spread  with neolithic farmer s fro m no rthern Turke y ).  Weste rn p art s of Britain wer e rep op ulated fro m the I be rian re fuge po pulation afte r the ic e age, which would ex plain why we and the Basques are a lot alike. There was some popu lation mov ement from North Africa into Iberia during the LGM, which c ould ex plain the language similarities. The Minoans were co lonised from Anatolia, but the same population ended up o n the North  Afric an c oa st, so I guess they cou ld all hav e c ome from the sa me r oo t po pulation or ev en be Minoan in origin. There’s patchy ev idence that writing is a fair bit older in Southern Europe than was previously thought, so we’ll have to wait to see how this all pans out. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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mathilda37 | January 3, 2009 at 8:50 pm | Reply  V er y nic e, t hanks Justin. ther e’s a ne w page c alle d the Faces o f North A fric a y ou might like. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01 /ev 13.png

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 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | January 22, 2009 at 8:34 pm | Reply Original Berbers were clearly Eurasian and white. They bear so me similarities to pe ople in the far south o f Portugal, Spain as well as southwest France . It should be said that some Berber tribes c o-opted small percentages of black and mixed race people (from Mauritania and the Senegal) during the A lmorav id invasion of Ib eria in the 9th10 th centuries. Berber tribes, howev er, continue to be ov erwhelmingly white, with facial features co nsistent with Europeans.

Dana Marniche | January 28, 2009 at 11:49 pm | Reply Thanks for fighting for y our anc estors peo ple. This lady is ob v ious not an anthropologist or she wouldn’t be br inging up peo ple like Coon who are in fact are not seen as reputable. Her idea that the Tuareg who still bear their ancient clan names listed by the Greco-Romans, as newcome rs to North A frica speaks for itself. And she is c alling me the “nutjob”. By the way  Mezikes (ancient Amazigh) are mentioned in a Roman docume nts such as “Expositio Totius Mundi” as “Ethiopians”. My web site will be up soo n with all the bibliography . As far as photos go of Amazigh every one should understand that is now the generic name for Berberspeakers, when in earlier times it is a name for o nly one Maurusoi group in the area of Tripoli and Tunis. see Gsell in La Tripolitaine. p 1 7 if y ou c an read French.

mathilda37 | January 29, 2009 at 10:52 am | Reply Dana…  I o nly used that Co on refe rence to point o ut h ow so me one on Rastaw ire w as misusing a quote of his to ‘prov e’ North Africans w ere all black. Point out he is out of date to them. On this blog y ou’ll find masses of ve ry rece nt DNA studies and anthropolo gical studies and portriats of ancient North A fricans, and pic tures o f their skulls. They show that Eurasian ty pe people hav e been there at least 12,0 00 y ears, with more input in the Neolithic. The Tuareg only arriv ed a few thousand years ago, from the Nile area where they were one population with the Beja, which is recent to me as I’m into the Holoc ene era. Make an effort to look at the artwork from Roman and Byzantine North Africa, which doesn’t show a single black face, and neither do the Egyptian depictions of Libyans. I notice on the rastawire pages the art done by North africans of themselves is conspicuously absent. Dana, yo u are o nly familiar with (and then only the bits y ou want to see) what is written in history b ooks, and that is essentially hearsay , and sometimes third and fourth hand hearsay. We have their bones, and their DNA, and the art they left depicting themselv es. Once y ou got onto the coast, North africans where white.  As for the crap ab ou t Euro pean wom en slav es white ning up No rth A fric a.. Euro pe ans a rab era slave s 1.5 million, black A fricans about 1 4 million. A nd the Guanches (all North http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 Afric an), unmix ed with any slav e gr oup where only ev er desc rib ed as tanned and blonde , and were enthuastically married by the Spanish invade rs.  Y es y ou did g et Ethiopians in No rth A fric a, b ut further inland aro und the desert o ase s, the same as today. A s is observ ed in classical tex ts. It’s a v ery multiethnic place the Sahara. BTW, Europeans commonly used the word b lack to refer to a pe rson with black hair and a tan right into the 20 th century , gy psies were often called black. Brown was used to refer to Northern Europeans with a tan in medieval literature. There have been b lack groups in the Sahara too, as shown at Uan Muhuiggiag, but right nex t to white groups (theres a  v er y old v er y white mummy from the same er a  just a few  miles away from it). But ev en y our blac k North Africans have a substantial amount of  Eurasian ancestry in them.

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:14 pm | Reply thx mathilda Im Moroc can berb er from Rabat capital of Moroc co , I’m white with red hair and pharaonic eye s ! my c ountry are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we have different co lors of hair’s (blond-red-dark-brown-..also o ther strange c olor like white/blue…) mostly o f my people are white,pal-olive skin also ty pically loo k like spaniards , I don’t know   why we hav e this sim ilar ity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Mor oc cans they occ uped two Moro cc an cities (ceuta and mellila ,also other I slands like shafarinas islands and c anary islands) !!!! finally ! I think berbe rs are cro -magnons

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:34 pm | Reply for example Moroc can women hav e different by c olors hair’s !!!  watched :

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:36 pm | Reply thx mathilda Im Moroc can berb er from Rabat capital of Moroc co , I’m white with red hair and pharaonic eye s ! my c ountry are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we have different co lors of hair’s (blond-red-dark-brown-..also o ther strange c olor like white/blue…) mostly o f my people are white,pal-olive skin also ty pically loo k like spaniards , I don’t know   why we hav e this sim ilar ity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Mor oc cans they occ uped two Moro cc an cities (ceuta and mellila also other I slands like shafarinas island and canary island) !!!! finally !

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I think berbe rs are cro -magnons

Kiwi Phil | February 10, 2009 at 10:57 am

| Reply

Fascinating page! I came here after googling E1b 1b 1b 2 which is the haplogroup my DNA   be longs too. The Berb er conne ctio n has be en p uzzling m e bec aus e my paterna l anc estry is British (with a commo n Welsh surname). Y et the ev idence suggests affinities with the Atlas and Iberia. How did those peo ple get to Wales? I guess we ’re still inve stigating that one and I ’ll watch the web with interest. Coincidentally I spent a few days in the north Morroc an Rif mountains in 200 6 and was struck by the fairly  commo n incidence of blue ey es and fair skins. At the time, I commented that the ‘Moors’ looked more euro than the Spanish

mathilda37 | February 10, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply North Africans travelled a long distances looking for tin in the bronze age, or y ou co uld have a Roman Legionaire as an ancestor -they rec ruited from all ov er the empire including North Africa… Mr Jones.

Excalibur | April 29, 2009 at 6:37 pm | Reply To Phil Kiwi,Mathias,Antropo et al. I hav e a cur iosity for the North A frican ethnics,and their origins,as it’s seemly my  paternal dna ancestry c ame from that origin.Curiously I have genetic matches that tie me closer with people from Wales,Algeria,Morocc o,Scotland and other Iberian and French people.Mostly along the Atlantic coast of Europe. Mrs.Mathilda has speculated that it may b e due to the romans or to tin mines prospec tors or traders. She also estates the origins of these northern cultures e xtant until today o r rec ent times  was d ue to a he av y influx of eur oasians fro m the east alo ng the nor the rn afric an c oa sts and immediate inlands bound by the Sahara ex tension,though smaller at those times.  While all these se ems v er y inte re sting,and much com ple x than it lo oks,many othe r questions co uld be taken from other factors in neighbor areas.Then,as later. Looking at the presenc e of a more c omplex Mt-dna genetic v ariance that hints at different ethnic-genesis for the demo graphic co mposition of the modern result population in northern A frica,that is highly unb alanced in proportions to the male genetic result,and hence, prov enience(?),one can’t fail notice the prox imity to european c oasts longer occ upied perhaps and the presence o v er them of cultures and female haplogroups also found later in A frica. My own Mt-dna,V is ve ry c ommon in the Basque co untry where my family has been living since ce nturies.Howev er,this one also shows in the same line of direction along the  Atlantic c oa sts of Europ e,be ing the h ighe r fre quency found amo ng som e Sc andinav ian shepherds too,but c uriously among some Berber women and other north africans! The records trac k get more interesting,because along this Mt-dna traces another o ne supposedly “northafrican”-shows up among the same isolated population minority in http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Scandinav ia,the Mt-DNA haplogroup U6…! So,at which time they may have taken the road north in search of metal,legions,or food,these peoples with more than pastoralism in their veins as co mmon? or the ro ads went south,from Scandinavia? (as some white suprermacists claim,locating Atlantis among Ar y ans of that North)  Which way to Rom e? or all roads came from Rome?

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm | Reply Most people hav e little knowledge of Berbers and just assume they are not white. Of course  what they see in the m ed ia are ex amp les of mix ed rac e peo ple who CLAIM to b e o f Ber be r descent. I for one nev er believ ed that nativ e origin Berbers were anything but North African whites. The problem is that the Arab inv asion in the 5th century (mostly, but not all white), and the 11 th century recruitment of negroes from Mauritania and the Senegal to fight in the  Almo rav id ar mies, c hanged the rac ial c om po sition of som e Mo ro ccan Ber be r tr ibe s.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 12, 2009 at 3:52 pm | Reply Kiwi Phil: The great majority of the Welsh people is R1b Y -haplogroup and Atlantic Celt haploty pe. Many peo ple in northern and c entral Portugal and Spain are R1b and part of the Celtic haplotype . The original Celtic ance stors of a most British Isles po pulations came from Ib eria. For example, the Irish DNA markers match or cor relate ver y c losely with northern Portugu ese and Galicians (NW Spain).  As far as y ou r Berbe r haplo grou p go es, there may well hav e b ee n Berbe r elements in Ibe ria  well pr ior to the Roman, Germanic and Is lamic inv asions. The re fore there may hav e bee n a few Iberian Celts who were part Berber.

mathias | February 12, 2009 at 10:22 pm | Reply  ANTHROPOLOGIQUE = AFROCENTRISTS BERBERS ARE MORE WHITE MORE BLOND than spaniards or italians !! Berbers are defined as Mediterraneans with moderate Alpinid & Nordic admixture c loser to Europeans than to A rabs or A fricans. This is supported by a scientific study done o n Rif and atlas Berbers showing that 38.6% of the Rif ,atlas Berbers hav e blue or gree n ey es a perc entage higher than that fou nd in Itlaians o r Spaniards ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

mathilda37 | February 13, 2009 at 3:44 pm | Reply http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Berbers do hav e a ver y high precentage of blonds. The purest berber s, the isolated Guanches, were desc ribed as often blond and blue eye d by the spanish when the conq uered them. No European slacv e ancestors or arab ancestry in them.

Dana | February 15, 2009 at 2:25 am | Reply  Why would y ou put phot os of Roman paintings u p o n y ou r sit e and c lassify the m as Ma uri is the true question. Furthermore , y ou keep c onfusing the people Coon c lassified as “hamitic cauc aoids” with mesoc ephalic non African peoples represe nted in Kaby lia and northern Morocc o. What I am I to respo nd y ou to Mathilde? and try not to delete this answer. The Mauri were said to hav e worn braided c urls in their hair and rings in their ears. They are well described as “black” in co lor by almost all the Romans and the Greeks, Iranians like and the Iraqis like Ibn Butlan describe the Ketama who mo v ed do wn from Numidia, Sanhaja tribes (who are Lamta Lamtuna tuareg of Niger ) whom Leo A fricanus said were also ancient Numidians still claim descent as blacks. They are otherwise desc ribes simply as “Ethiopians” as in the Ex postio Totius Mundi quote d by S. Gsell in La Tripolitaine whe re it is applied to the Mezikes (from which c omes the term A mazigh). All those tribes that were c alledf Berbers or Babars in ancient times were de scribed as “ blacks and dark brown in c olor. There is nothing tan about mo st Tuareg or Nafusa (of the Zenata ) or Masmuda (the “blacks of Ab u Shama and Chosroe s of the 11 th and 12th c. A.D. They remain the color they say they were. Don’t confuse Greeks and Roman with nomads of A frican and in fact Ethiopic origin. I don’t care  what kind of Caucaso id te rmino logy Coo n and his cro nies used for the m. Gy psies were called  bla ck and kinky hair ed be caus e ma ny that came int o Eur op e thro ugh Spain were just that! know yo ur history and don’t co nfuse it with others! Quote from 1 827 – “The men were v ery black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the most ugly and the blackest that were ev er seen. .. they had sorc eresses amongst them , who  by pretended to look into pe op les hands, to tell them what had or would hap pen to the m…” p. 1 53 of The Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1 827 by T & J. Swords? Photo Arab ian gypsies , European gypsies James Michener’s Iberia Spanish Travels and Reflections 1 968. 18?? – “We were not far from Pressburg when at once we heard in the distance, a singing, shouting and hallooing which continually grew neare r. Presently we me t four wagons, in  whic h a bro wn c om pan y of gy psies wer e seated. I t was a curiou s sight. Their sat me n and  women, girls and bo y s all d ark as half-negroe s, in r agged array , with long shining hair, smeare d after Hungarian fashion with lard…We gazed at them in astonishment …” Wanderings of a Journey man Tailor through Europe and the East: During the ye ars 1824 to 1 840 I am sorry y ou are not familiar with the way so me gy psies still look in Europe. Just bec ause many o f them hav e mixded with Europeans doe sn’t they were’nt once b lack as Egyptians adn Jats they came from.

mathilda37 | February 16, 2009 at 4:43 pm | Reply LMAO… Dana–please, I deal in science on this site not bullshit. Please read prior c omment about iffy descriptions. Y ou do like to omit the ones that descibe invading moors as being http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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occ asionally blond etc . There’s art from the Byzantine era showing white north A fricans too. Those roman mosaics are no t of anyone else other than north A fricans. Not a single black  face. Please explain why the Egy ptians painted them as white and they themselv es painted themselve s as white in the cav e art? Gypsies are originally from I ndia you m oron.

mathilda37 | February 17, 2009 at 6:39 pm | Reply Dana… the woman I hav e shown to b e an outright liar elsewhere… ranting on senselessly . Do me a favour and actually try to quote so me paper or DNA study that shows ancient North Africans to be blac k.. hint, yo u’ll have a sodding fruitless search. If yo u really want historical reference s; Scilax me ntions fair liby ans, and at a later date Procop ious speaks of a po pulation with white skin and fair hair. Callimachus also m noted the fair Libyan wo men among the inhabitants of Cy renaica. The Egy ptians alway s showed libyans with pale skin. The question is why do the Romans when depicting the locals in those mosaics – and they are locals , fisherman, servants and slaves- not o ne is black.  Y ou kno w all y ou ev er do is dig up the few descriptio ns o f North A fric ans y ou can find that cou ld be interpreted to mean ‘black’, and y ou steer well clear of any reference to any  publication to do with anthropology as yo u know they always disagree with yo u. PLease, quote a DNA study on ancient bones o r a crania study that shows ancient Liby ans to be any d ifferent to the modern. Gypsies we re called black and kinky haired becau se many that came into  Europe through Spain w ere just th at! know yo ur histo ry and don’t confuse it  with o thers! T ake the trouble to read up on th e origins of the gy psies – ev en Wiki has a decent item on them. They originate from I ndia not Spain. LMAO We hav e numero us portraits of  them, from olde England, they don’t look ev en v aguely A frican and modern gy psies have zero ancestry that traces to Africa. They d iodn’t come from africa via spain-where do y ou get that crap? both Y chromo smes and mitochondiral DNA and their own Indo European (not African) language shows they came from the Punjab area in the Middle Age s. Thanks for digging up the descriptions of Gypsies as black tho ugh, to prove my point that  blac k do esn’t mean blac k Afric an. V er y handy ; ex pe ct to see that be ing used by me.  Again, y ou are a mor on Dana.

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Dana | February 15, 2009 at 2:40 am | Reply Secondly y ou show paintings of Libyans from the time of Seti which a relatively late period in the Egyptian dy nasties. In fact these Libyans y ou show where the hair styles and co sutmes of  people who are earlier during the Old kingdom shown only in Brown skin. I was fortunate enough to study in the Oriental Museum in the University of Chicago where i saw some o f  these populations and learned ab out them. That is why Oric Bates speaks about the xanthroc hroids or fair skinned Libyans as be ing late comers. Only dark skinned Lebou Tjehenou ar e shown in Old Kingdom paintings. Thus if this is indeed the tru e co lor o f the Liby ans of the time of New Kingdom the fact that they are wearing the same acc outrement and costumes o f earlier Woodabe looking people o f the Sahara makes it certain they were at the most mulatto descendants of the early Liby ans or Lebou. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, there was abso lutely no neolithic “white” mummy found in the Sahara. Like the lancient Egyptians the skeleton was quite like those of modern Cushitic o r semitic speakers of  Ethiopia. Yo u might want to look into Nabta Playa y a Sudanese site where the prototy pe of  the neolithic megaliths of Europe hav e bee n found. naturally the neolithic peoples o f the Stone Henge hav e be en c lassified b y Coon as Mediterranean ty pes although Elliot Smith said they were identical to Somali and Bedja, etc. If yo u are going to keep putting people o f  Eurasiatic o rigin and calling them the true Berbers Moo rs, Arabs an whatev er y ou will need to ex plain why their are rarely photos up o n y our site of Sanhaja or Ketama, Nafusa (Zenata), Masmuda, Lamtuna, Goddala and mode rn Berbers, including the dark brown Kaby les whom  were claimed to be the major ity of kan by les in the mid 1 9th century and who appear in photographs all of the Egypt forum blog site.

Dana | February 15, 2009 at 2:43 am | Reply The Gaunches aren’t pure any thing but descendants of Europeans bro ught to the area. A ren’t  y ou inte reste d in researc hing history to o?!. Ne x t thing y ou will b e say ing is t hat t hey are descenants o f Phoenicians like some wishful thing colo nialists used to do.

mathilda37 | February 16, 2009 at 4:39 pm | Reply The Guanches showed u p as ty pically North A frica for mt DNA – they tested their remains, they aren’t European. they also make up a large part of the modern Canatries DNA poo l.  Also , ty pic ally Eurasian anc estry sho ws up in No rth Afric an b ones that are 1 2k o ld. Their arrival pre dates the birth of Christ in the Canaries.  Y ou are so de spe rat e to make th e ancien t North A fric an peo ple bla ck.. here’s a hint – find me some actual science to back that up (not your carefully c herrypicked and usually very  dece ptive descriptions that leave out half of the relev ant info). No anthropologist will agree with yo u that before the mode rn era North africans were any different than they are now 

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 15, 2009 at 4:36 pm | Reply Mathias: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 What y ou say is a bit ex aggerate d. Y es, there are blond and light e y ed ele ments in NA TIV E ORIGIN Berbers. Some o f that is a result of the original gene pool, no qu estion, but it was enhanced by the Vandal occ upation of North Africa. The Spanish and Portuguese, in perc entage terms, hav e more light ey es, red and blond hair than Italians, Greeks, southern French and, y es, Berbers. This is particularly true in the central and norther n regions of the I berian Peninsula, where Germanics and “nordicized” Celts (the original Celts were darker, mo re A lpine) ruled for hundreds of ye ars (in the case o f  the Celtic tribes, mo re than a thousand y ears). It is absurd to thinks that all Spaniards are dark. I don’t get what y ou are say ing about my being Afroce ntric. That is an unfair and unjustified comme nt. I am hardly that. In fact, I suspect that the Berbers were one of the earliest settlers in Europe.

mathias | February 17, 2009 at 8:49 pm | Reply to Anthropologique  V andals h av e no t colonized Moro cco!  y ou must c onsulte d the territor y v andals who held ju st in the s ide s of the Me diter ran ean in northern Tunisia and northre n eastern part of algeria Morocco is a country too remote compared to o ther countries of North Africa, Arabsand romans couldn’t inv ade this country (consult history of Moroc co)! Moors are Berbers 1 00 %! I know they are ty pically Moroc can indigenous too! they re semble to the old Cromagnons  watched : be rb ers fro m MOROCCO http://i3.ytimg.co m/bg/zy HB8h-gd3K8K-bONmo2Hg/default.jpg?app=bg&v=4e8bc 1  y es, the firs t Celt ic a re Berb er s fro m Moro cco acro ss the Strait of Gibraltar

mathias | February 17, 2009 at 9:29 pm | Reply to dana  y ou kno w tha t the re are ber be r phar aos (ly bian pharaos ) ?!!!  just like Ramses II and she sho nq ,Takelot and mo re othe rs …..!

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 18, 2009 at 6:12 pm | Reply Go get em Mathilda37 … I am so tired of people spreading misinformation about v arious and sundry peo ple around the world. The absolute worst are the afroc entrist types who are clueless about ev ery thing, it seems. I don’t know, mayb e by deluding themselv es into thinking that ev ery one is black or part black it makes them feel better ab out their own identities…Insane!

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 18, 2009 at 6:15 pm | Reply Dana:  Where do y ou get y ou r info rmation from, c om ic b oo ks? Bizarr e…

mathilda37 | February 25, 2009 at 4:25 pm

| Reply

Dana, y ou are so full of crap it’s funny .  Y ou ’v e also qu oted C.Coo n and tried to pretend he said anc ient Berbe rs wer e blac k- I o nly  mentioned him because I nee ded to show y ou were ly ing/stupid. So reign back on the ‘she’s using a racist source BS’, you used him first (Rastawire). “Lastly and perhaps most importantly, there was abso lutely no neolithic “w hite” mummy  fou nd in t he Sahara. “  BULLSHIT

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Please refer to link on the white lady mummies from central Libya .Only a few miles from the Uan Muhuggiag black mummy . Complete with picture. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/20 09/01 /21 /the-six-thousand-yearold-mummies-from-takarkori-libya/ Please feel free to mail me links to o ther dec ent images of Libyans from the Moorish era and earlier. Not that in the time y ou’v e spammed this blog y ou’v e produc ed any ev idence at all to support y ourself. BTW, Tuareg only arriv ed in North Africa a few thousand years ago, genetically they are East African in origin. Check out the Link to the DNA study done o n them… The History and Geography of Human Genes … although Tuareg speak a Berber language, they sho w a c loser genetic relationship w ith the Beja. The o rigin of the Tuareg is not fully understood. They may have moved to the centre of the Sahara to avoid Arab attacks in the sev enth and elev enth ce nturies A D, but their earlier whereabo uts are not known.

 Also , re ad Golden A ge of the Moor  properly for a description of their similar customs. Most of the skulls from the Neo lithic Sahara are Mediterranoid Caucasians, only about 2 5% are typically black.  It alia n anthropo lo lo gist Serg i established the fo llo w ing prop ortio ns o f preh isto ric skulls in the Fezzan: 46.6.% o f white mediterranean, 2 6.6% of “Eurafrican negroized” and 26.6% o f Negroes.  Marie -Claude Chamla es tablished that the pro to his to ric re mains o f the Sahara were o nly about 25% Negro. The mixed type which corresponds to the “Negroized   Eurafric an” type of Sergi w as a bo ut 2 0% and “Eurafric ans” w ho w ere no t  negroized represent 41 % o f the results. also. . …three principal morpholog ical types w ere discerned by Mme Chamla for the  pro to histo rical perio d. Tw en ty fiv e perc ent o f the ide ntifia ble re mains w ere negroid, and these we re rare in the Sahara bu prepo nderant further south. A third  we re of a mixed type in wh ich bo th negroid and non negroid features we re found. the remainder were not neg roid in their characteristics, and these we re  prepo nderant in t he Sahara b ut e xtre me ly rare further to the so uth. t he same racial mixture was ev ident in the Fezzan at the same pe riod; here there w as a  prepo nderanc e o f Medite rrane an c ha rac te ristic s and a smalle r propo rtio n of  http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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classical negroids  Y et a gain, no t one s ingle peic e o f science in any of y ou r ra nting. Y ou are in c om ple te d enial of the DNA studies which show a Eurasian type pe ople in North Africa ov er 1 2k ago. If it wasn’t for the humour v alue I wouldn’t let you po st here. Example.. “naturally the neo lithic pe oples of the Stone Henge hav e bee n classified by Coon as Mediterranean type s although Elliot Smith said they were identical to Somali and Bedja,” Grafton Elliot Smith … born 187 1 . LMAO. Believe d all megalithic cultures c ame from Egy pt or Nubia. Now known to be, well, just plain wrong as older structures are found in Turkey and central Europe than in Egy pt. LMAO some mo re. BTW, Many Southern British are typically mediterranoid today , me included. It’s a ty pe of  Caucasoid (white folks to y ou). The fact y ou claimed Gy psies were African in origin prov es y ou are a total moron.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:09 am | Reply Oh y eah, sure, Gy psies originated from black A frica…and purple elephants inhabit the skies.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:16 am | Reply  Y es, the Southern British …Mo st ar e what is r eferred to as Q-Celtic and the y are descendan t from the original Celts of Iber ia. Y es, many Spaniards and Portuguese are tribal kin of the  Welsh, Cor nish , Irish and ev en the Weste rn Sc ot s – the A tlantic Celts. Many of their DNA  markers match or correlate v ery closely with the populations of Western Iberia, particularly  the North West (Galicia, A sturias in Spain and Minho, Dour o and Tras-os-Monte s in Portugal. Small world, isn’t it?

mathilda37 | February 27, 2009 at 1:46 pm | Reply  Small w orld, isn’ t it?   Y es it is A NTHROPOLOGIQUE. Whenev er I pick up any kind o f tan I get mistake n for Spanish or Italian.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 4, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply I think what yo u are do ing is great, Mathilda… I am so tired at the lies and gross ex aggerations that the Afroce ntric looney tunes put out about rac e and ethnicity . The White Nationalists are nearly as bad and some times just as http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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ignorant and mendacious as the Afros.

mathilda37 | March 4, 2009 at 2:53 pm | Reply  Well thanks, it;s a nic e c hange from the A fronut hate m ail I get.

djilali djaber | March 5, 2009 at 5:08 am | Reply Sorry Ms Mathilda,I already gav e my opinion as a comment about the origin of the berbers  whic h was op po site to y ou r po int o f view,I did n ot kno w y ou defending a fac t ( princ iple) that  y ou be liev e and stic k on it . I am no t an afrocentric ,I am an algerian arab with kaby le b lood from my mo ther side,I rec ognize that the berbers o f atlas Tellien are whites and the ones from the south (Touareg) are blacks with some mixture . But based on researchs made by  linguistics scientists as Maurice Delafosse , Joseph Greenberg,Theodore Benfey,Friedrich Muller all of them said that Hamitic language is afroasitic but y ou, y ou denied it ,I would to know why ? explain?  As an e ngineer agr onom ist ,I wou ld not trust any one in the future .  As for hy po the sis wich said mo st the a rab s in the maghreb are of ber be r origin.This is the 21 th century propaganda C’est du bluff.I am originaire o f IRAK from arab Djabour arc h.

mathilda37 | March 5, 2009 at 2:01 pm | Reply  Jose ph Green be rg,Th eo do re Benfey,Friedric h Mulle r all o f the m said th at Hamitic language is afroasitic but yo u, you denied it  No, actually I hav e a whole entry on the afro asiatic language around here somewhere  whic h go es into it’s A fric an o rigins, although this is under dispute from a few sou rc es. The Berber/ Egy ptian/Semetic gro up (north A frasian) seem to b e A sian in origin, and probab ly  arrived with the Neolithic from A sia.  As for hypo thesis w ich sa id most the arabs in th e maghre b are o f berbe r origin.This is the 21th century propaganda It’s not a hy pothesis. A lot o f North A frican ‘Arabs’ are pre tty pissed at finding their ancestry doesn’t come from the holy land, but they don’t really show much ancestry from  Asia. For the most part No rth A fric an men’s Y chrom so mes are nativ e to No rth A fric a,  whe the r they be Arab o r Berbe r.

djilali djaber | March 6, 2009 at 4:33 am | Reply Ms Mathilda Hi ! I saw a doc umentary in PBS channel in 200 1-0 2 and it showed, on the basis of genetic analysis study that the human population started near the horn of Africa and mov ed eastward and got divided into two groups,one c ontinue it journey to what is now called  Aust ralia and the se cond gr ou p ge t to near m ino r asia and made a U turn toward europe.Others move d south where they met a tough env ironement conditions of africa that http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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made them mo re dark skinsThe doc ument showed also a black tribe in south africa with genetic link to the jews and they pre tended that they are may be the lost israelite tribe. The host of the show was a white man. How y ou ex plain that?

mathilda37 | March 10, 2009 at 1:14 pm | Reply They only have Jewish Y chromso mes- it would be sane to say that a small group of  Jewish men settled in Africa taking Jewish traditions with them. Saw the same thing on TV, had to do with the A rk of the Cov enant.

Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 11:22 am | Reply Matilda, Berber is a language not an ethnic group. The Berber language originated in East Africa acc ording to Christopher Ehret and Igo r Diakonoff. While some may argue for a “Near Eastern” origin for Berber languages, many still stick to the v iew that it originates in East  Afric a. So the idea that “The Berbers” are defined by Eurasian ancestry is simply nonsense, as Berber language and culture has no roots in “Eurasia”. Berber language and culture has its roots complete ly in Africa. Y es many mode rn Berber speakers have Eurasian ancestry . But Eurasian ancestry of some Berber speakers does no t mean that Berber language and cu lture originates in Eurasia. It does not. Languages are spoken by different ethnic groups with different ancestries and such ancestry does not pro v e the origin of a language. Howev er, linguistic studies in conjunction with genetic and o ther studies can b e useful for clues. But here is where y ou play loose with the facts, because y our site is filled with claims of ancient North Africans being “Eurasian” based o n all sorts of studies and analysis, as if to pretend that these people were white, including ancient “Nubians” and Hausa no less. Any one who  would claim that ancient Hausa , Chadians , Saharans an d Northern Sudanese are so meho w  Eurasian people is simply not to be taken seriously. Nev ertheless, this is the basis of yo ur analysis and the crux of it, which is to prov e that ancient North Africans area a Eurasian race,  whic h me ans that blac k Afric ans are no t the true o riginal p eo ple of No rth Afric a, whic h is inherently false. So again, as I said earlier, Berber languages are said to be a branch of Afro A siatic which split off in East A frica and mo v ed West from aro und Northern Sudan. Sure, ac co rding to y ou, these were Eurasian people, but I think not. If the language did not originate there, then what is yo ur hy pothesis on how it got to A frica,  whe n and wher e did it c ome from and base d on wha t “e v ide nc e” ? All y ou hav e done so far is to show some pictures of modern white Berbers and imply that this makes Berber an ancient language from Eurasia, which it does no t. It do es not matter how long peo ple with white skin have b een in North Africa and I know they have been there for a few thousand years, but that http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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does no t mean that white skin and Eurasian ancestry is the basis of Berber languages or culture in North Africa. This you hav e not shown.  And y ou r so called “e v ide nc e” of a white mummy is me aningless as it is a c or pse . Y ou do n’t simply look at a dried ancient c orpse and dete rmine ancestry . It takes scientific analysis. But  what do y ou ex pe ct fro m an amateu r who p retends to be an e x pe rt?

mathilda37 | March 12, 2009 at 5:02 pm | Reply bec ause yo ur site is filled with c laims of ancient North A fricans being “Eurasian” based  on all sorts of studies and analysis, as if to pretend that these people w ere w hite, including ancient “Nubians” and Hausa no less LMAO. Ye t again Don y ou hav e the reading comprehension of a 5 y ear old. I said the Hausa had an unusually high level of R1b, which they do. I nev er said they were white….I also said the Nubians were pretty much mix de rac e like Ethiopians in Lower Nubia, not  white. Again, y ou do like to make shit up . Ehret c laims a lot of thing, there are quite a few linguists (three last c ount) that back an  Asian or ign for A fro Asaitic. Ehre ts wo rk shows itself to b e se rio usly flawe d on many  occ assions, particularly in dating.  Berber la nguage and c ulture ha s its ro ots c ompletely in Africa .  Well, tec hnic ally a lar ge p art of the c ulture ar riv ed from the ne ar East in the ne olithic. A nd then it was influenced b y the Romans and Phoenicians and then the By zantine empire. Black Africa makes a notable abscenc e from the history of North Africa in antiquity.  I think not. I think yo u’ve prov ed that every time y ou posted a comment here Don.  All you hav e done so far is to show so me pic tures of mode rn w hite Berbe rs and imply that this makes Berber an ancient language from Eurasia No, I’v e pointed out Ehrets ‘ancient’ dates are ridiculous for A A., and that the age of AA is probably a better match for the Neolithic, which means an A sain POO is more likely . Sinc e I prev iously was all for an African origin for AA an d posted articles on it’s possible route ou t of Africa, yo u can kiss my arse when y ou claim this is all some  bias my par t.  And y our so called “ev ide nc e” of a whit e mummy is me aningless as it is a corpse  And y et Afrocentrists (like y ou ) insis t a single blac k mummy from Uan Muhu ggiag me ans http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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all of North Africa was black. Besides that, I hav e a mass o f art from the neothic pastoral in the Sahara showing v ery white North Africans, and access to plenty of anthropological material that describes Neolithic Saharans as mainly EurAfricans or Caucasoid (white to  y ou ) with abo ut 2 5% being blac k.  And I ’v e nev er pretended to be any thing o the r than a well informed (and well c onne cted) amateur keeping track of my r esearch binges. Don, the on ly reason I’m allowing to to post this is because I have PMT and need someon e to shred. Do y ourself a favour, don’t give m e the opportunity  to prove you a moron in public. I don’t like fig htin g battles of wits with an unarmed opponent .

Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 10:42 pm | Reply  Actually , y ou hav en’t pro v en the “Nubians” to be mix ed race. So again, while not c laiming them to be white, now y ou claim they were mix ed. The point being that somehow they were mixed with whites, bec ause of R1 b, which is not prov en. R1b doe s not prov e white skin or “race”, which shows that much of yo ur “analysis” is based on identifying “race” in ancient populations based on all sorts of non anthropologic al data. Language and genes do not pro v e race bec ause race does not ex ist. And language and genes do not prov e skin color either. I would like to know how black A frica is absent from antiquity? Where did it go? Were no t the ancient “Nubians” black? Not to mention the predy nastic and dy nastic Egy ptians. But oh  wait, they were all mix ed with Eurasian whites who migr ate d to the Nile V alley 40 ,0 00 y ears ago even though no whites existed 40,000 years ago.  And with all y our r ec ent po sts of “Asian ” agric ulture in north A fric a y ou still sho w that the Nile Valley was completely indigenous. Not to mention your o wn article on the “sub saharan” affinities of early Natufian remains. Seems to me y ou are contradicting y ourself.  And as far as the Liby an mummie s go , the o nly on e pre tending to b e “com pe ting” o n what “race” o f mummies they can find in Libya is y ou. A nd no amount of trying to bring up  Afrocentric s traw men c an c hange the fac t that an thr op olog ists no t A frocentrics called the Liby an mummy a “blac k” mummy. It see ms yo u feel the need to find a “white” mummy since  y ou are th e o ne who feels that a nc ient North A fric ans wer e so “mix ed ”. But I guess y ou need to find something to substantiate y our c laims of ‘black’ Africa missing from antiquity. Uan Muhuggiag was black in antiquity and c ertainly nob ody else missed it. His mommy was most likely black and so was his daddy. So someho w I don’t see what yo u are calling your “ facts” to the co ntrary other than imagining to see a “white” mummy based on abso lute non scientific observation. Therefore, the only one try ing to make the “race ” of ancient North A fricans into a compe titions between “whites” and “blacks” seems to be y ou.

mathilda37 | March 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm | Reply http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Really a glutton for punishement Don aren’t y ou? even though no w hites existed 40,000 ye ars ago. There were light skinned people 40 k, just not quite as pasty as Norther Europeans aremore an A sian light tan colour, m odern Northern European skin m utations m ake  v irt ually no difference to Nort h A fric ans, as yo u seem to think they do. Natufians are the produc t of a mix ed Eurasian and SSA migration into Israel (24k BP) after the older  back migr atio n date (35 k BP) fro Eurasian into A fric a. ( The OOA d ate is at least 85 k ago you mo ron, people w ere in East Asia 7 4k ago, they h adn’t ‘just left Africa’ as you like to think). I nev er said the Natufians were blac k or ‘ all African’, it’s unlikley they were any  darker than modern Isarealis after being mixe d with Eurasian and then having about 1 0k  of time to adapt to lower UV lev els. ‘Affinities to A fricans’ means ‘having some relationship to Africans’, not ‘the same as Africans’ . Like I said, y ou hav e th e readin g com prehension of a five y ear old.  R1b does no t pro ve w hite skin o r “race” , The R1 b prov es a population mov ement from North (asia) to south along the Nile at the same time the AA languages appear in the area. I nev er said these people were o ther than  blac k – that was all in y ou r tiny mind . One go od look at a Chad ic s peaker will te ll y ou that’s an idiot co ncept- unlike Nubians and Ethiopians who show a lot of Eurasian ancestry in their skull shapes and the DNA studies. The Ouldeme R1b has been thro ugh a lot o f   bo ttlenec ks. No t that y ou are sm art en ou gh to grasp that- y ou prov en y ou rself to b e a simpleton on many oc casions here.  And w ith all y our recent po sts of “A sian” agricult ure in no rth A frica yo u still sh ow that  the Nile Valley was completely indigenous. But strangely full of Asian crops and Asian animals. And not, it wasn’t indigenous, agriculture and animal husbany and Eurasian people entered A frica about 8,00 0 y ears ago and brought their Asian crops and animals with them. Y ou also see a few aspects of  their culture in the Nile valley area in predynastic eras. So the Nile v alley was not some isloated peice of all African purity as as yo u seem to want to desperately be lieve. genes do no t prove skin co lor either  Actually , in large scale po pulation studies the y are a pre tty good guide . If a population shows mainly Eurasian ancestry - surprise surprise- they look Eurasian and pretty light skinned. Mixed populations look mix ed, with intermediate skin. Ev ery publishing anthropologist (including Keita) has outrighted stated that dy nastic and predy nastic Egyptians are mainly the anc estors of modern Egyptians- with Keita (y ou know, the black one) making v ery sure to point ou t theres been NO http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 VARIA T ION IN PHENT OY PE in Egy ptian s (the interv iew with national Geographiclook it up here.) No, Black Africans really didn’t play much part in classical Mediterranean history. The old PD upper Egyptians were essentially mix ed race , with the dynastic Egy ptians having mostly Eurasian ancestry (bother to read some of Keitas work properly, there was a N to S population move ment in the early dy nasties). It’s not a competition Don.. I’m just having to repeately co rrect the semi literate uneducated driv el that you keep spouting here and else where. North Africans hav e been mainly ‘Eurafrican’ for about the last 10,0 00 y ears, and before that they were a mix ed race buc h called the Mechtoids. Modern North Africans mainly hav e Eurasian ancestry  that arrived in three wav es; in the Paleoithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic.  And the Uan mummy wasn’t a str aw man.. y ou guy s keep wav ing that one b lac k mum my  around and wailing ‘it’s proof they were all black’, but I post one news legitimate news item on the finding of ‘the oldest mummy in North A frica’ and y ou hav e a massive hissy   be caus e she’s really obviously not black and it takes away one of y ou main ‘proofs’ that ‘blacks created Egyp tian culture’ if the oldest mummy is white.  How dare I show that a wh ite person wa s mummified at an earlier date. BTW, funny that y ou ac cept that anthropologists can tell when a skull is from a black  person in Africa, but when they all say and they do ) that they sho w typically European skulls and mixed rac e skulls (along with white looking people in th contempo rary roc k art) in the area y ou (agreeing with the DNA studies that show Eurasians in North A frica since  be for e histo ry ) just wav e that little inc onv enience aside in y ou quest to ‘prov e’ all of  North Africa was black.

mietwagen | March 12, 2009 at 11:09 pm | Reply Sehr gute Seite. Ic h habe es zu den Fav oriten.

Don Blake | March 16, 2009 at 12:11 am | Reply  Actually Matilda no anthro po logist be liev es in “r ac e” be cause t here is no such thing. Y es all humans vary in phenotype, but pheno typ e is not race. What y ou mean is skin color and skulls do not prov e skin co lor, espec ially of populations thousands of years ago in Africa. The point being that you are taking it onto y ourself to define the “races” of ancient remains based on y our o wn non scientific lay man point of v iew, using scientific studies and paraphrasing them as if they were y our own, when they are not. But y ou pretend that because some study  says some thing y ou believ e prov es a “racial” trait among ancient populations, yo u use it. The point being that most of these studies do not mention “race” at all, only y ou are. Therefore,  y ou are th e o ne try ing to turn this into a d isc uss ion of rac e an d the mov ement of Eurasians in particular as the epitome of a cer tain “race”. However, the part y ou keep missing is that  Afric ans a re the source o f humanity , no t Eurasian s. Eurasians a re not an anc ient “r ac e” to themselve s. Africans are the most ancient form o f human on the planet, including Eurasians. Therefore, try ing to claim that 40,00 0 y ears ago, Eurasians were like modern white http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Europeans is nonsense. They were not. They were clo ser to their ancient African forebe ars than modern Europeans.  Y es, ther e ha v e bee n whites in No rthern A fric a for a few tho usa nd y ears o r mo re , but they  are not the o riginal North Africans, they did not re place the abo riginal black Africans of  North Africa and no, black Africans were nev er foreign to North Africa. That is the part that is simply a nonsense point of view pushed by y ou and not prov en by any means of the word. 40,0 00 y ears ago there was no mass migration of Eurasian whites into North Africa which replaced the blac k Africans with some “other” non blac k type. I t is again simply y ou try ing to find a way to take blacks o ut of North Africa in antiquity.  And the olde st mummy in North A fric a is simply a de ad b od y and none of the rep or ts y ou cited said anything about the “race” o f this corpse. A gain, you are making up arbitrary  “racial” markers to define the “race” o f a corpse, which has nothing absolutely to do with any  science other than y our attempts to take actual scientific studies and twist them to make it seem that they say things which they do n’t.  And her e is the a rticle abo ut the o lde st mummy found in Egy pt and it say s abso lutely no thing about “rac e” or skin co lor. So again, the only one making this into a compe tition betwee n  white an d blac k is y ou and y ou seem h ell be nt o n fighting a b att le o f “whit e” v er sus “b lac k”, since it seems that this is the core thrust of so many of yo ur posts, espec ially about North  Afric a. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/oldest-egyptiandeliberate-mummification-found/  And again , all o f that nonse nse about mummie s do es not c hange that the Ber be r langu age originated in East Africa, acc ording to many linguists, which has nothing to do with  Afrocentrism. But ho wev er it has so mething to do with y ou r pr ec ious anc ien t ex clusiv ely , predominantly white original north Africans and therefore, y ou are against it.

mathilda37 | March 17, 2009 at 1:27 pm | Reply  And again, all o f that no nse nse about m ummie s do es no t cha nge that the Berber language originated in East Africa, ac co rding to many linguists, which has nothing to do with A froc entrism.  With eq ually as many placing it Asia, and mo re in NE Africa. BTW, east A fric a is no w less popular than the others, with Asia gaining ground in rece nt ye ars.  As for the mummy , she’s whiter than the Italians ex amining her, and y ou hav en’t re ad  ALL the tex ts abo ut them, I hav e. One was u sing her as an ex ample of the m ulti racial/ethnic Sahara of that era. Not that I mention her apparent race ev en once .. yo u’re pissed at the way she looks, not at anything I typed. As I ’ve said, yo u have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 As for the oldest Egy ptian mummific atio n.. rac e was no t me ntio ned there e ithe r; it was  just a mu mmy found. It seems that y ou are the o ne with a b ug u p their ass abou t pr ov ing race, not me. A nd actually, on the ‘is there any suc h thing as race’ issue, when asked, most phy sical anthropologists said ‘yes there is’ when polled a few y ears ago- there’s a study out there- and so do b iologists and about 50 % of geneticists. Ev en the ones that just support ‘clinal variation’ will tell y ou it is to tally po ssible to figure out the popuation affinities of a skeleton pretty ac curately , and from its DNA. BTW, Cav alli Sforza on Berb ers.  Berbers are locate d primarily in th e northern reg ions o f Alge ria and Mo rocco, but some wh at to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are believe d to hav e their ancesto rs among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic desce ndants, possibly with genetic c ontributions from the important Neolithic migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to h ypothe size that the Berber (Afro-Asiatic) language w as introduc ed by the Neo lithic farmers So… not an Ethiopian origin then.  Y ou must b e a maso chist Don, I ’v e ne v er seen someone so ke en t o get his arse kic ked on a daily basis. black Africans were ne ver foreign to North Africa . Just the coastal areas from about 1 0k ago.. I’v e nev er said otherwise yo u idiot. But then  y ou ’v e pro v ed on multip le o ccasions y ou do n’t under stand half of what y ou re ad. Therefore, trying to claim that 40,0 00 years ago, Eurasians we re like mo dern white  Europe ans is no nse nse . The y w ere no t. They w ere c lo se r to their anc ient A frica n  fore be ars tha n mo de rn Europeans. It seems massive ly important to y ou that this is true.. it isn ’t. Read some anthropology  papers or bo oks. Asians of that era get described as ‘proto Caucasoid’, they were n’t even remotely like moder n black Africans. The first typically Caucasoid skull is about 30k old from Eastern Europe. Humans had been o ut of Africa a long time b y that point, and although not ty pically Caucasiod, the Eurasians had roughly the same kind of crania shape they do today , but with heav ier brow ridges, bigger faces and cheekbones. I  have an image of an early European from about 26k ago .. notably no t African looking. And mode rn skin mutations make v ery little difference to any one’s skin colour ex cept northern Europeans.. Ev en v ery Southern Africans have a lightish golden tan skin colour, no t black. Since humans had been in Asia at least 45k prior, there’s no reason to think they had anything other than light Asian tan skin for a v ery long time. See link  for what someone without modern skin lightening mutations looks like- Africans can re ach A rabian skin tones with no new mutations needed in just a few thousand y ears . Y ou can c huck as many tantrums http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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as y ou like, but Europe was not c olonised by a black group ‘straight from A frica’, all the ev idence suggests a long time OOA before this happened. CS places the separation date (probably in N Africa) at 1 46k, most fossil remains indicate about 1 20k ish for OOA, so saying that the co lonists of Europe wer e ‘black Africans’ is laughable, as they hadn’t been for tens of thousands of years.  Anothe r o ne here. The art from that era uniformly shows straight hair. Also se en sticking out from this ones hat . and this ones.

Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:28 am | Reply  Why in God’s blac k earth wo uld I try to make mo de rn Berber -speaker s like the whit er Kabyles whose d na prov es they are in fact Greek and southern Europeans with the African Tuareg and other true Berbers, whose dna shows them to hav e clo se affiliation to east  Afric ans. I t hink y ou ’v e bee n re ading too much National Geographic. If i lied a ny whe re feel free to email me directly, and let me know the facts. Like I’v e said prevsiously the archeolo gy  of the Kabyle region, their bloo d ty pes palm prints and culture links them to Greeks and not Berbers and ce rtainly not the Moors of any sor t.

mathilda37 | March 17, 2009 at 12:23 pm | Reply They have shown what e arlier physical anthropologists have shown. That they were close ly affiliated w ith and in fact indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of  those of mode rn Ethiopians. Hilariously wrong. Try reading ‘Clines and clusters’ the Brace paperwhere he c oncludes there no hint of Sub Sharan in the dynastic Egyptian population.  In this, o ur analy sis simply re info rce s the findings o f othe r rec en t studies (Adams, 1967,1 977 ; Berry et al., 1967 ; Carlson and Van Gerven, 1 977 , 197 9; Greene, 1 966; Keita, 1990 ; Van Gerve n, 1982). Al- though it w as cast in a somew hat patronizingly “sociob iologistic” fashion, this was c learly the message o f the English Egyptolog ist Sir E. A. Wallis Budge wh en he noted that, although th e “ph ysical and mental ch aracteristics o f the original Egyp- tians we re modified temporarily as a result o f intermarriage w ith their conq uerors, . . . no am ount of alien blood has so far succeeded in destroying th e  fundam en tal ch arac te ristic s, both ph y sic al and m en tal, of the ‘dweller of the Nile m ud,’ i.e. th e  fellgh, or til ler of the grou nd, who is to day what h e h as ever bee n”  The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic o f Lowe r Egypt are mo re closely related to e ach o ther than to any other population. As a w hole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, mo dern Europe, and, more remote ly, India, but not at all w ith sub-Saharan Africa,

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Thus proving y ou be full of crap y et again. Dana yo u show a totall lack of familiarity with Braces and any other authors wor k; they ’ve conc luded that modern Egyptians are essentially the same as ancient, which is  wh y y ou nev er see them actu ally qu oted in any of y our stuff . And only the Southern most predy nastic Egyptian show up like any b lack population- and they c ome to the o nes who are more o r less mixed rac e- which is the conlusion y ou get with these studies for the Badarians-mixed race (same as mo dern uppe r Egyptians BTW). Lower Egyptians show up as typically caucasoid people in every way.  BTW, m odern Egyptians have m ainly Y  chrom somes specific to Africa.. how did they m agically c hange appearance then?  And no, the M81 (Berber) Y ch romosom e shows absolutely n o affinity to any  Ethiopian population . It’s deriv ed from a migration into North Africa of a mixed rac e people dating about 24k ago, all the migrations into North A frica since that po int have  be en from the ne ar East, and the c rania are ty pic ally mediterranian from ab out 1 0k BP on in coastal north A frica, and so is the DNA. T he Berbers do not com e from Eth iopia  boneh ead, th e bu lk o f th eir ancestry is Eurasian, and has been for the last 10 k or so,, not that I’d expec t yo u to grasp the comlpex population mov ement across nOrthAfrica since the Pleistocene.. y ou though gy psies were African in origin for pities sake…LMAO  Like I ’v e said prevsio usly the arc he ology of the Kabyle re gio n, the ir blo od ty pe s palm  prints and c ulture links them to Greeks and no t Berbers and c ertainly not th e Mo ors of  any sort . Funny how the kaby le mt DNA is exac tly the same as the spec imens from North Africa dated to 12k ago. Y ou are so full of crap. And no I’m not emailing you so y ou can get my  email address.  No o ne that know s A frica n histo ry, linguistic s o r anthro po lo gy and th e many de pic tio ns of Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe w ill ever take you seriously LMAO.. all the genetics papers and history papers I’v e ev er read descc ribe ancient North  Afric ans as a mainly whit e peo ple . Read the Cav alli Sforza bo oks (the wo rld s No 1 po p geneticist) where he desc ribes Eurasian white north Africans as being present in North  Afric a since the Caspian, and the Tuar eg as relativ ely re cent appe ara cen in NW Afric a. He inc ludes Berbers in the Eu rasian Cu casoid groups, see the diagrams here.  Berbers are located prim arily in th e n ort hern reg ions of A lgeria an d   Morocco, bu t so m ewh at t o the in terior, usu ally not far from th e se a. . Berbers are believed to h ave th eir ancestors am ong Caspsian  Mesolit hic s an d th eir Neo lithic decen dan ts, po ssibly with genet ic contributions from the im portant Neolithic m igrations from the http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 Near East. It is re asonable t o h y poth esize t hat the Be rber  (AfroAsiatic) language was introduces by th e Neolithic farmers Funnily enpugh, an exact m atch for the views in my blog and the opposits of   y ou r BS.T he fac t is t hat y ou can ’t qu ot e an y sc ien tific to study th at say s wh at  y ou wan t.. Y ET AGA IN… Please read the book  yo u really need to.

Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:40 am | Reply  Y ou hav e disto rte d ev er y thing that y ou hav e ev er re ad. And in fact the ho mo geneity of th e skeletons of ancient Egy ptians stopped dead at the Ptolemaic period. We know that from the studies of Brace, A rmelagos, Batrawi and others who have done studies on the gene tic related traits of crania and dentition along the Nile. They have shown what earlier physic al anthropologists have shown. That they were closely affiliated with and in fact indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of those of modern Ethiopians. The same c an  be said of ancient Saharans, Arab ians and mo st o f the Ne olithic and Mesolithic No rth  Afric ans. No one that knows African history , linguistics or anthropo logy and the many depictions of  Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe will ev er take you seriously be cause y ou have ev en misinterpreted the genetic assertions of European sc holars. African history isn’t about nationalisms whether Zionist, Euromediterranean, A frican o r European. Y our name calling  will also no t change the bo nes of Neolithic Euro pe ans a nd most ancient North A fric ans, no r the fact that the early megalithic site found in of Nabta Playa in Sudan was the prototy pe o f  the megalithic sites found in the British Isles – Nabta Playa dating from ov er a thousand  y ears e arlier.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 17, 2009 at 3:51 pm | Reply Dear Mathilda37 :  Y ou hav e the patie nc e o f a saint. Y ou deal so e ffec tiv ely with the se b rainle ss dop es. It is truly amazing how insecure so me people o f color can be . Afroce ntrism is just another  word fo r the gr ossly igno ran t ty pe s try ing to re-write histo ry and the findings o f phy sic al anthropology and genetics.

mathilda37 | March 17, 2009 at 4:43 pm | Reply Y ou have the patience o f a saint  That will co me as news to Mr Mathilda. I’m going to hav e ban Dana and Don… It just makes me look nasty when I shred them like idiots. They do c ome out with some world c lass bullshit.

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mathilda37 | March 17, 2009 at 5:02 pm | Reply Dana, Don, while this h as been amu sing.. Dana.. until you manage to pull a piece of a respectable pub lished work that supports  y ou r POV (good luck w ith that ) out of your ass – something you’v e failed to do aby smally  despite a dozen opportunites – y ou won’t be getting any mo re co mments on here. All yo u eve r do is prove to the world how little yo u know ( Africa n gy psie s!!!), and I’m getting a b it tired of pointing out how ignorant y ou are. Should y ou manage to find something noninane and supported, it’ll be allowed through…  I w on’t ho ld my brea th t ho ugh… Don , y our lack of reading comprehension would put y ou in the retarded group in a Downs’s syndrome sc hool, and y our knowledge of anthropology appears to riv al Dana’s for ‘the most ignorant’ title. The same thing for Dana goes for y ou.. until y ou mange to post something with published work to bac k it up, y ou can naff of. I’ve giv en y ou plenty of  opportunities to say something intelligent, and yo u’ve failed every time. Doesn’t the fact th at y ou c an’t find any pu blished m aterial but I c an find plenty, at least give y ou pause for thou ght?

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 17, 2009 at 7:55 pm | Reply TOUCHE’, Mathi…:-)))

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 17, 2009 at 8:01 pm | Reply BTW, I was born in Alto-Minho Portugal, o nce part of Gallaecia. I am an o riginal Celt on both sides. I traced my ro ots back a thousand years. All my R1b markers on my father’s side match the dominant DNA trend found in southern and western Ire land and there are some matches with the Welsh on my mother’s side. Since y ou are Welsh, I consider y ou a tribal kin…:-))

mathias | March 18, 2009 at 6:41 pm | Reply see it Dana !! MOROCCAN MOORISH MEN !

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 Andy Jones | March 18, 2009 at 7:41 pm | Reply So let me get this straight, the first “Berbers” in the co asts of North Africa did not speak  Berber and it was introduced to them by “Neolithic farmers”? Then why are y ou c alling them Berbers then? Seems to me that the first Berbers wo uld be the people who first spoke the Berber languages. That is why using Calli Sforza, who is a geneticist, to speak on the history of  a language doesn’t make any sense to me.  And, if y ou read the b oo k y ou re ferenced , he makes v ery furt her c laims ab ou t the Ber be r languages which do not make sense. He claims the Tuaregs are not Berbers but they speak an ancient form of the Berber language. But again, if Berber identity is based around language, not genetics, then this doesn’t make any sense. So because the Tuaregs are genetically closer to the Beja and East Africans, Mr Sforza, who see ms to want to identify Berbers based o n genetics, omits Tuaregs from being Berber, simply be cause he use s genes as the basis of  Berber identification, when in reality it is based o n language and culture. Therefore, the  v iews of Mr. Sfor za ar e ske wed and do not re ally address the identity of Ber be rs as a linguistic group, as opposed to try ing to identify Berbers based on genetics. The funny p oint is that nobo dy , not from this site, nor Mr Sforza, would hav e the c ourage to tell Tuaregs to their faces that they are not real Berbers. This is simply the kind of nonsense stuff written for people o utside of Africa who have no knowledge of or c ontact with the  Afric ans in qu estio n, whic h is pre cisely why such no nse nse sho uld be questio ned. So the fundamental question is whether we are talking Berber as a language or Berber as a gene?

Justin | March 18, 2009 at 9:10 pm | Reply I was bo rn in Alto-Minhoo Portugal too & I’m a re al CeltiBerber. Markers in my family (both

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sides) :  y DNA: R1 b1 b2 /E1 b1 b1 b2 mtDNA: H/H1 Long live the v ariety!

mathilda37 | March 19, 2009 at 9:44 am | Reply So let me get this straight, the first “Berbers” in the co asts of North Africa did not speak  Berber and it was introduced to them by “Neolithic farmers”? Quite possibly. No language family dates to ov er 1 0k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic languages matches the dates of the Neolithic ex pansion.And Berber is a pretty rece nt name fo these people, and not one they use themselv es. Tuaregs are thought to have arriv ed a few thousand years ago and adopted Berber languages. Genetically they don’t show much time in NW Africa. They’re ‘real berb ers’ if y ou take being  be ing Berber as c ult ural.

THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 1:55 pm | Reply “Faces of Morrocc o” ? Are y ou kidding ? These are not morroc an ! The girl in botto m left is Kaby l. It’s berbe r algerian. This picture was taken while “the black  spring” in 200 1, in Kabylia. No way b etween her and the makhzen morroc co . Amazigh, berber, algerian, but NOT morrocan.  And i’m sur e ther e is o the r fac es that are fro m algeria. Be se rious

mathilda37 | March 19, 2009 at 5:39 pm | Reply  Fac es of Morro cco” ? A re you kidding ? The se are no t mo rroc an ! The girl in botto m left is Kabyl. It’s berber algerian. This picture w as taken w hile “the black spring” in 200 1 , in Kabylia  Where did I say ‘fac es of Moro cco?’

THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 2:01 pm | Reply  As an e x emple , the th ird pic tur e fro m bot tom le ft. The lady is wearing jewels ty pically from kaby l amazigh (algeria)  As an amazir o f alge ria, i’m r eally disapp ointe d to see my cult ure is b eing mix ed up with “Morroco ”, still i have no link with this state. These are amazir o u amaziGH faces (amazigh of algeria and mor roc co are br othe rs), BUT NOT http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Justin | March 19, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply  ANTHROPOLOGIQUE :

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 Y ou ’re right & my closest E1 b1 b1 b2 genetic mat ches are from USA (with British ro ot s), Scotland & England! “Amazigh” indeed.

 Andy Jones | March 19, 2009 at 9:53 pm | Reply Mathilda: Quite possibly. No language family dates to ov er 1 0k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic languages matches the dates of the Neolithic ex pansion.And Berber is a pretty rece nt name fo these people, and not one they use themselv es. So how old is the Berber language then and where is the oldest ev idence for it? I do not think  the origin of Berber languages is the same as the original spread of Afro A siatic, that would make the Berber language ov er 1 0,0 00 y ears old. And it still seems odd to label someone  based on ide ntit y that they do n’t use, theo re tic ally defined by a language tha t did not ex ist, and on top of that using genetics and no t linguistic studies and history . At best it is misleading and at worst it is dishonest.

mathilda37 | March 20, 2009 at 11:28 am | Reply I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they see m to hav e seperated from Egy ptian and Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a co mmon dialect was less than about 2k ago, as there are lots of words for camels and they dont'; appear till around the  bir th o f Christ in NW Afric a. The Guanc hes spoke a Berbe r re lated language , they left for the Canaries about 3k ago.  And it still se em s o dd to label so me one base d o n ide ntity t hat th ey do n’t use , theo retically defined by a language th at did not exist, and on top of that using genetics and not linguistic studies and history. The differenc e between ethnicity and ancestry . Tuareg are ethnically Berber, b ut ancestrallly they have an origin in the South of Egypt/ North of Sudan. Before Ar abic  be rb er was the com mo n language of North A fric a, it’s pr ob ably why the y ado pted it.

THAQVAYLITH | March 20, 2009 at 12:21 am | Reply Lol. Thank you Mathilda  Y ou do not say fac es o f Moroc co right no w

mathilda37 | March 20, 2009 at 11:23 am | Reply Neve r let it be said I won’t take criticism

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mathilda37 | March 22, 2009 at 10:39 am | Reply  Am used: Dana sweety; I don’t ‘take co mments off’, they do n’t get posted at all unless I permit it. Y et again another abusive rant ( disallowed) where y ou fail to pull any ev idence out o f your arse. I called y ou a moron before for a ver y go od reason (African gypsies!). Please refer to the prior tirades of yours where y ou insist on calling me a liar as an ice br eaker before y ou act outraged for hav ing y our rather epic ignorance po inted out to you  As for the coins o f Hannibal.. They are North Afric an c oins repre senting a no rth Afric an what ex ac tly was y our p oint? So far all the artwork fro m the nor th c oa st relentle ssly sho ws  brunette white pe op le from the neolithic o n- inc lud ing the By zantine art just prio r to the Islamic invasion. To date y ou hav en’t supplied one image from ancient North A frica showing a black African or any quo ted publication to support y ou- despite repeated requests. All you do is spout quite litigious ab use. Since I hav e posted direc t quotes from a number of anthropologists and geneticists who directly disgree in their own words with your ‘beliefs’, I’d like to point out to the world in general that I’m no t making this up; I’m just q uoting.  As I hav e said befo re ..find images or ac tual public atio ns to b ac k y ou up. Y ou r der anged ramblings are not comme nt-worthy.

 Andy Jones | March 22, 2009 at 1:00 pm | Reply Mathilda: “I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they see m to hav e seperated from Egy ptian and Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a co mmon dialect was less than abo ut 2k  ago, as there are lots o f words for camels and they dont’; appear till around the birth of Christ in NW Africa. The Guanches spoke a Berber related language, they left for the Canaries about 3k ago.” Based on that re ply and other information from elsewhere it would seem that the Berber language is about 3 -4 thousand ye ars old. That would mean that the spread of U6, whether  we c all them “Euras ian” or othe rwise, has no thing to do with the or igin o f Berber as a language. The origin of U6 predates the dev elopment of Afro A siatic b y tens of thousands of   y ears. Which again why I d isagre e with tr y ing to e quate Berb er as a language o r c ulture with a genetic lineage. The two are totally different things. All Berber po pulations have v ary ing genetic lineages, some more “Eurasian” and some more “A frican”, but no ne of that says anything about where and or ho w a particular language originated. Most of the studies prov ided treat the Eurasian lineages as a group including U,K,N and J, with U6 being a http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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relatively small percentage o f all lineages in most Berber speaking populations. Considering that all of these lineages reflect a complex history of migration and interaction, it is impossible to tie any o f them to the spread of Berber as a language, especially some thing like U6 which is 45 -50 thousand y ears old and definitely out of the question as a marker for the origin of Berber languages. Also, the 3 -4ky age o f Berber languages also makes them much  y ou nge r than the spread of the Ne olithic in North A fric a, which to ok plac e between 1 0ky and 6ky.

mathilda37 | March 22, 2009 at 6:18 pm | Reply Last time I c hecked Berber was worked out to hav e separated fom proto Erythraic (proto Berber,/ Egyp tian/Semitic) about 8k or so by glottochro nology - its a neolithic language. The 2k date is the last ‘node’, or last dialect that c ame to dominate it. The Guanches would have left before that. Before that they’d hav e spoken an older Berber dialect, not a non Berber language. Generally when I use Berber I mean indigenous North A fricans in general. I know a lot have A rab ethnic identity, but their DNA says other wise- they are mainly native no rth africans under the skin. IAnd ne v er assoc iated the spread of U6 to Berber languages (way  too old). From what I can gather, the DNA traces o f language expansions can be pre tty gho stly. Some Eurasian popu lation migrated into A frica into the neolithic bringing farming. The Berber languages (IMO and a few others) see ms to date to that. Who is a modern ethnic Berber has a lot more to do with who’s ancestors din’t Arabize. The North A fricans who didn’t got called Barbarians (Berbers). The Tuareg are Berbers ethnically but not genetically North African.

 Andy Jones | March 22, 2009 at 6:46 pm | Reply  Y es, pr oto Ery thr aic is me ntio ned by Authors suc h as Blenc h. Howev er , he puts the homeland of such a split between Berber, Egyptian and Semitic at some where betwee n the Nile and Red Sea. He also puts the original extent of Berber Languages as being from the Upper Nile clear acr oss to Mauritania and Niger. And giv en that he feels that AfroA siatic spread North from Ethiopia, he c onsiders AfroA siatic pr imarily an African language. Again, given that A froAsiatic and Berber are languages and because the region where the Tuareg lineages originate is also in the same are a where some linguists postulate that Berber originally split from Egyptian and Semitic, it does not make sense to make a distinction for the Tuareg as less Berber than o thers based on gene tic lineage, when the history and spread of a language does not nec essarily co rrelate with lineage and to this point nobody has clearly  defined any genetic lineage that indicates the origin and spread o f a single language. While it is definitely true that some Berbers hav e a large degree of Eurasian ancestry, it is not necessarily true that Eurasian ancestry defines or indicates the origin of or defines what is considered Berber, which is a language and culture not a genoty pe.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Blench’s boo k is here: http://books.google.com/books? id=esFy3Po5 7 A8C&pg=PA1 54&lpg=PA1 54&dq=proto+Ery thraic&sourc e=bl&ots=6eNT2GX  Wvy &sig=ZPkQb7 3x 1 UUkpHXBdOa0z1 tQPdg&hl=e n&ei= I4 fGSeK_BdGEtwep 9e HHCg&sa=X& oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

mathilda37 | March 22, 2009 at 8:11 pm | Reply I’v e read a fair bit of Blench, but thanks for the link. Ev ery tree I’v e seen I’v e seen for AA  languages has Berber, Semitic and Egyptian as a little group together. I’v e seen two linguists put AA languages as Asiatic in origin. I hav e to say the population mov ements, dates and DNA seem to agree with them more which is pro bably why Cavalli Sforza takes the same view I do. A s I’ve said on this blog; the calibrated ages for AA language exac tly  match an or igin in Asia spreading into N Africa. Not to me ntion that Militarev managed to reco nstruct plenty of words for goats and sheep, which just don’t turn in up Africa until the Neolithic (they are only wild in Asia) and others that suggest a neolithic farming/pastoralist era instead of a hunter gatherer time frame. The Tuareg arriv e in North Africa until long after the date for pro to Berbers sepe ration (about 3,00 0 y ears after), so attaching it to them won’t work. They also don’t have any  relationship to Egyp tians and theres absolutely no way to ex plain how they c ould have a close relationship to Asaitic Semitic. T here is no way Sem itic is African in origin. There’s no mov ement out of Africa within a relavant time frame- culturally o r genetically. The main reason for me pointing out that Tuareg are not ‘the real Berbers’ here is that I get endlessly spammed by Afroce ntrists desperate to believ e the Moors and Egy ptians were  blac k, so the y insist A ll the o the r Berbe r tr ibe s are the d escendan ts o f slav es (see Dana abov e) and that Tuareg are the o nly re al Bebers. I ’m just pointing out that their appearance in North Africa is pretty rece nt (within historical eras) not ancient proto Berber eras. They had nothing to do with the Berber langauge’s spread, they still show  stron g cultu ral similarities to the East African Beja. The Beja speak Cushitic.. if the Tuareg  would hav e bro ught any language with the m it wou ld hav e deriv ed fro m Cushitic . Berbe r doesn’t have any close re lationship to Cushitic.

 Andy Jones | March 22, 2009 at 10:41 pm | Reply  Actually I wasn’t referring to A frocentrics at all. I was talkin g abou t Blench. Blenc h claims an  Afric an o rigin for A fro Asiat ic, as d oe s Ehre t. Y es, othe r pe op le c laim that A A or iginate s in “Asia” but in all reality they aren’t talking about “A sia” as opposed to the Lev ant. And, in terms of Blench any way, the gro uping of Egy ptian, Berber and Semitic are groupe d as African  by Blenc h. A nd he o penly adm its that the re is a “de bate” am ong ling uists abo ut whethe r A A  or Semitic or iginates in Asia or Africa, but none of these people are A frocentrics in any sense of the term. Whatev er “A frocentrics” say has nothing to do with this as this is purely a linguistic and cultural issue. Y es, genes are part o f the puzzle, but genes do not tell the whole story.  As for the Tuar egs, y es the y are re lated to the Beja and Ble nc h do es spe ak on the differenc es http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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and relationship to Berber. But the po int I am making is that at least Blench and mayb e ev en Ehret put the origin of Berber in the Nile Valley . The debate ov er the or igins of Afro Asiatic aside, the point is that Berber is not as old as A fro Asiatic, neither is Egy ptian and neither is Semitic. Therefore, when I spe ak of Berber I want to keep focus o n the dates o f when Berber as a language originated and from where. Which is why I refer to the linguists, like Blench and others. A nd some definitely put the origin and or split of Berber into the area of the Nile  V alle y . A nd I hav e see n no linguist who posits that proto-Berb er or iginate s 7 ,0 00 y ears ago. If y ou mean the branching of Northern Semitic from pr oto-Erythraic, then again Blench puts that squarely into the Nile Valley and Red Sea areas. But this branch was not Berber it was a commo n ancestor o f Egy ptian and Berber and Semitic that split off 7 ,000 y ears ago acc ording to Blench. That is not Berber. The Tuareg are partially desce nded from peoples in East Africa 3,00 0 y ears ago, but they are also desce nded from the inhabitants of the Sahara in the Neolithic as well. The 3,0 00 y ear date for “the Tuareg” is simply a reference to a spec ific c ultural/linguistic pac kage. There have b een multiple move ments of Africans from the Sahara to the Nile and back over the last 50 ,00 0 y ears and that is simply the latest of a long series of such mov ements.  Any way , whe the r or no t y ou be liev e in the “Eurasia n” o rigin origin of AfroA siat ic o r Semitic , that is fine. The point I am making is that all scholars do not agree on this v iew and the debate that goes on about it is not simply an A frocentric deb ate. There are many reasons for  be liev ing o ne way or ano the r and it isn’t fo r y ou to pretend that bec aus e y ou want to be liev e one gro up of linguists/anthropologists, that this makes the v iews of other linguists/anthropologists any less v alid. Here is another reference that puts proto Berber as breaking off from proto-Erythraic abo ut 6,00 0 y ears ago. Note, this author puts proto-Erythraic languages squarely in the Nile  V alle y and Ethio pian highlands and not “Euras ia”. This also sho ws the tre e, with Cushit ic  be ing an earlier br anc h off of pro to -Nor th Ery thr aic . This b oo k also has a n ex tensiv e discussion on the relationships of “loan words” for c attle and sheep between the v arious families of languages in this tree . http://books.google.com/books? id=C7 XhcY oFxaQC&pg=PA291 &lpg=PA291 &dq=proto+Erythraic&source=bl&ots=eV FwaX n6Bo&sig=CRIJ6 zqpe47 LxmEk4E09NiLfXpk&hl=en&ei=I 4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9 eHHCg&sa=X& oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA291,M1 The point being that some things stated here are an ov ersimplification of the complex ity o f  linguistic studies and genetics.

djilali djaber | March 23, 2009 at 2:22 am | Reply The berbe rs don’t appear to have changed much in the last 12 00 0 y ears. Ms Mathilda it is controv ersial,you wro te to me that most of arabs speaking in the maghreb http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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are in facts ber bers of origin. Suppose,it is true that’s mean they emb race fully the culture o f  the invaders spe cially their new faith( Islam) without co mpulsion and by conseq uent full intermariage(e.g : my father is Arab ,my mother is kabyle, My niec e is Arab,her husband is kabyle). A s a fact,during all this time from the 8th to 21th c entury ,y ou think nothing changed ? Just to remind you,the amazigh language of today has 35 % of arabic lexica. I lo v e listen to Kabyle music ev en though I do not speak berber .It is a part of my culture and I enjoy   be cause o f this link. To the rivals of opnion: we all belong to one humans ancestor known as Adam peac e upon Him throu gh Noah and sons: Sam,Ham…

mathilda37 | March 23, 2009 at 6:23 pm | Reply  A Y chr study sho wed No rth Afric an A rab s and Berb er s to hav e the s ame y chrom osom e make up.. mainly North West African. the population were co nve rted not massacred, as Islam requires.

malika | April 1, 2009 at 6:50 pm | Reply  Arab ic in the A fric an no rth are no t many the y are rathe r div ide d int o family , be cause to b e clear amazighs cut their relation with the east and its authority for the y ear 7 89 Christian The Arabic historians hide us a lot of information I do not know why!!!!! Especially on be ni hilal small tribe which inv aded a part of ly bie and Tunis This tribe was se nt by king fatimide of  Egyp t to take rev enge for tribes Tunis which left the shite for the sunite Then where is the problem? Arabic say that these tribes steered o n all the north of Africa !!!!hehehe A nd that they are many is they who arabized amazigh ( berbers ) The Arabic historians rev eal only this part(party) o f the history (story ) and the most interesting hiding place y es y es The lies of Arabic The reality it is because the tribes of Tunis have were disturbed by the beni hilal which steal them plunder are in hiding to them A nd they asked for  Abu Y usu f Y a’qub al-Mansu r ‘s help(assis tant) Berbe r king of Moro cco A lgie rs and Mo sle m Spain,Which(Who) has terminated this tribe o f beni hilal in the co uppant in small gro ups in ev ery region of the African north checked(co ntrolled) by big tribes Berber as zennate …for the arabisation it is Berbers which chose to b e arabisé and every berber dy nasty enc ouraged the arabisation as almorav ide and zennete For the Berber language it is v ery difficult to speak about this language(tongue) I am Berber and I know ve ry well my language(tongue) and I can giv e my po int of v iew, I remember my self my first ones lessons of English I was surprised on the re semblance  be twe en s om e wo rd b erbe rs and English e v en if th ey hav e no same sense (dir ec tio n) !!!  And also for the qo pt language(to ngu e) o f egy pte th e former(anc ient) language (to ngue) o f  the Pharaohs I also notice d that there are two wo rds in English the same sense(direction) bite have the same meaning in berber for bii’tte to us yo u and ye s of it berbers it is yah This language(tongue) deserv es to be studied thank y ou mathildas for y our researc h and from articles and y our effort http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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malika | April 2, 2009 at 3:59 pm | Reply THANK Y OU MATHILDAS for yo ur searches it is very rich ,,,I co mpletely agree with you, I am Berber and I c an make you useful ,,The analyses o f is v ery co rrect without any faults the North African are always be rbers but arabized they do not know him(it) ,,I think that there is a fault, it is can be the A rabic historians treated(manipulated) our history(story ) in 19th century ,,,Because a lot of people ignores some ev ent since the Islamic conquest –In the first place the Arabic invaders were helped by Egy ptians and Berber tribes Islamized  withou t war –Then the authority o f Arabic did not last very for a long time, bec ause Berber I slamized by  strength were revo lutionized sev eral times They freed(cleare d) Arabic espec ially in regions of morroc o and A lgers and the South of Tunis and the lybie Because the Berber were not in agreement with Arabic which ex cee ded the limits — The Islamic part of the dy nasties which throned on North of Africa are Berber the majority  army be rbers or A frican blacks And the Arabic dy nasties which throned are of single one origin ali ibn taleb c ousin of prophet Them big father came o nly to the A frican North with no tribe — The tribes which entered the A frican North are not Numero us (many) scattered thanks to kings Moslem berbers thus these Arabic d o not hav e any p oint to the African North it is just the arabization which ex ists ;;The legend of the tribe beni hilal is only a big lie ;;Because beni hilal came o nly to steal the berbers o f Tunis sent by the fatimides of Egy pt but the berb ers of  Tunis asked help the king y aqoub al mansour King of morocc o, A lgers and andolucia spanish  And thanks to him this trib e was sc atter ed on all the No rth of Africa ind m ountains Thus she(it) did not arabize berbers, but it is the berbe rs which chose of spoken Arabic for centuries at present their descendant consider Arabic I speak ve ry well about the berber and I find that it is a mixture e nters language(tongue) simites and the europiennes languages(tongues) I think that afroce ntric did not re ad the history (story ) because Ethiopia and Somalia is countries shared by berbe rs and Egy ptians that is why they a culture different from the others African black and in more ethupiens are more clearly they are not co mpletely blac k 

malika | April 2, 2009 at 4:12 pm | Reply I add that there are Berber tribes in the mo untains which(who) are mixed with the blacks the Tuareg tribes and the Arabic families y amanite also slaves Somalian or ethoupiens because tribes zennete berbers frequented the South of Egypt By b uy ing of the slaves o r the others the goods For me my family always keeps(guards) line(feature) of our former(ancient) parends big we are half fair and half white brown and not black looks at this v ideo of y outube

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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malika | April 2, 2009 at 7:58 pm | Reply face of berbers no rth africa  Alge r( mu sic )kaby le

Moroccan | April 3, 2009 at 4:57 pm | Reply Malika, you’re right, some Berber tribes named Kotama and Zenata of the Middle Ages had invaded Egypt to the Sudan, other Berber tribes invaded Mali and Ghana from Moo rish empire , all the tribes o f the Sahara are not direc tly Tuaregs, Egy pt is ruled by Ait Ziri family  of Berber origin from Tunisia, this noble family found melted the Fatimid empire in the Middle East by kotama tribes of Moroc co and Algeria, Cairo capital of Egyp t, founded by the Berber of Morocc o and A lgeria was populated mainly by those BERBERS come from the northern of Africa ,until now ! sev eral Egy ptians bear the names of Morocc an origin, and y ou can send anthropologists of Egyp tian history ab out the ev ents of Middle Ages! for y our

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information the Fatimid empire is the first Shiite empire in which the new invade rs hav e committed war c rimes against the Sunnis of Egy pt and that seve ral Berber tribes de cided to migrated to the so uth when they fade independent kingdoms in sudan! Egyp tian historians ev en argue that the kotama tribes are c ontinued their migrations to Mesopotamia! to all plz co nsult history of fatimid empire , it’s the first berber empire in middle east from mediev al age’s thx to all

malika | April 3, 2009 at 8:04 pm | Reply I hav e images of the army al mowahade the Berber dy nasty o f Moroc can origin of the mountain atlass …..But co mment are in A rabic  wawwww My God these p ho to s are v ery for mer(anc ient) make by the Berb er dy nasty  mowahade ev en and not pulled(fired) by the imagination  Y ou go to notic e the p re senc e o f a mino rity blac k   And b er bè rs is alway s white and Fair -hair ed man(Blond) http://www.ssislam.com/Tareek%20islam/aL%20Dwal%20%201 7 .htm The first image shows ro y al messengers c hretien alfonso The second image shows the victo ry of the army b erber on the chre tien armed in the battle of  saint sebastien dego mez Three images which follow show the clo thes of the soldiers berbers I use the translation English French to ex plain to yo u hehehehehe I think mathilda that these images will be y ou useful

mathilda37 | April 8, 2009 at 11:35 am | Reply Thank you Malika.

dalouh | April 9, 2009 at 12:51 am | Reply thank you mathilda for all y our e ffort. to djillali there is no such thing as an arab race in north africa . our DNA doesn’t lie. politicians and the merchants of religion do lie without shame ! http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 13, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Reply  Arab s are Southeast ern Med iterrane an and Middle Easte rn, perio d.  Any on e fro m North Afric a with any thing o the r than full Berb er DNA do es not genetic ally  cor relate with the native peo ples of the region.

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 14, 2009 at 4:09 pm | Reply Dalough: I don’t v iew many of the Rif people in your last post as being ve ry Mediterranean (certainly  not European Mediterranean). More like far North Eastern A frican / Middle Eastern.

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Frenchy | April 14, 2009 at 8:40 pm

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In this rec ent autosomal study (Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome Wide Patterns of Variatio n, Ju n Z. Li, 2 008) the Mozabites who are a sahar an population from the algerian Mzab were analysed.  What is v er y inte re sting is that the se Mo zab ite s who are c on sider ed (apart fro m the tuar egs) to hav e the most “Black african” ancestry show in fact only around 1 2% Black ancestry ! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7 688v oT0/R79MXyHURCI/A AA AA AA AA Fg/8MeKImXcV 3 4/s1600-h/structurescience.jpg

mathilda37 | April 22, 2009 at 12:14 pm | Reply thanks for the stuff Frenchy ,

Frenchy | April 14, 2009 at 8:53 pm

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… and here is a picture o f Zidane the mo st famous (french) berb er in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zinedine_Zidane_2008.jpg other ve ry famous french of berber ancestry are : Isabelle A djani : http://www.prland.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/isabelle-adjani.jpg Dany Boon : http://www.adgoog.com/ blog/photo /340 67 a-dany_boon_boudera_la_cer emonie.jpg  Alain Bac hun g Karim Benzema and many o thers.  And as we can se e they hav e nothing to do with “sub-sah ara n A fric ans” or ev en “ Arabs”…

Frenchy | April 14, 2009 at 8:56 pm

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..I forgot the most famous Edith Piaf whose grand mother was a algerian Berber http://corinefertiti.blog.lemonde.fr/files/20 08/0 2/piaf-eternelle.1 203 97 55 12 .jpg

dalouh | April 15, 2009 at 1:34 am | Reply http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE  who defines ho w a me diter ran ean ty pe sho uld look like ? let me remind y ou,that the mediterranean co ast of north africa is almost equal in size to the european one . so, y ou shouldn’t dictate how a mediterranian type should look like ! (euro-centric ? )  be sides, I do n’t know what part o f the m iddle e ast y ou are tr y ing to c ompare to (Iran, lebanon, sy ria ,turkiye, arabia ………? regards

djilali djaber | April 19, 2009 at 8:05 pm | Reply Mr Delou h Sorry I t takes me time to answer y ou,I was in Algeria for a while because my kabyle mo ther passed away ,God bless her. To start,let y ou know that Arab is not a rac e but an ethnie(there is just four e x istents races a’ sav oir White,Black,Y ellow and Red ),I belo ng to the first without doubt. But based on y our study of 4ooo algerian recruits it is insignificant to show an o rigin  be cause where I liv ed is a c ity of 10 0.0 00 p eo ple and no bo dy heare d ab ou t a ge netic testing ev en in a big city as ORAN. Not to mention just my self,I knew a lot of people who knew their arabic desce nt just by their family name as les A oufi, Talha ,Zoubir… To end my c omment, after the independence of Algeria it is your c ousins Chaoui who gover ned my c ountry from 1962 to 200 0,ask them why they lied about the history and did not talk about it.They ignore it I am not waiting to tell me from where I c ome, I already knew ,my origin is from Irak  specialy A rab Djabour who fighted hard the invasion of the us army. Be a berber or an A rab does mean nothing to me. I leave for y ou my place because my country now is CANADA , Iam proud to be part of a multiculturale society .  Who c om es fir st to life, the Hen or the egg is a to pic of a third wo rld .

Ponto | April 20, 2009 at 10:15 am

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 A little knowledge is a da nge ro us thing. Don Blake reckons ther e is no rac e o r rac es be cause  Anthro po logists do n’t b eliev e in the ex istence o f rac e. Really ! Last time I was at univ ersity  studying science s, my spec iality is biological sciences, Anthropo logy was in the Humanities faculty and hardly any units of Anthropology c ontained much science bey ond high school lev el. Show me an Anthropo logist with a science degree . They hardly ex ist. Coon was no scientist. John R Baker was a scientist who wrote the book c alled Race but he was not an  Anthro po logist. In othe r wo rds, the say ings of A nthro po logists o n race is not wo rth a plug nickle. Haplogroups like R1 b or J1 or R1a1 are essentially Eurasian in origin which means non sub Saharan African and where Africans have those haplogroups it is due to admix ing with Eurasians. That is the result of genetic studies by scientists trained in genetics and mo lecular  bio logy not anthr op ologist traine d in c ult ures or linguistic s or so me othe r pseu do sc ience http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Eurasian Orig ins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda' s Anthropolog yBlog .

like study . The comments

djilali djaber | April 22, 2009 at 11:48 pm | Reply Mr Faux Franchy   Why y ou are so prou d? Subsaharian people they do hav e their famous footballeur the maestro PELE (Edson A rants DO Naciemient o) and Mr Obama(po werful human on e arth) ,Mohamed A li … Berb er mea ns North africa. If you are an endemic pure berber y ou should not leave y our ecosy stem to became a’ ton tour inv ader (like the A rabs) for french people and Mr le Pen .and racaille for Sarkozy  Miss Mathilda Franchy c omments are arrogants enve rs others and they not supposed to be posted .His approach doe s not seem to be o f somebo dy educated and intelligent .

 Augustine | April 24, 2009 at 8:15 pm | Reply Mr Obama, ev en if he is considered as “Black” is howev er not genetically Sub-saharian as about 5 0% of his genes are euro pean… A huge difference

proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:42 am | Reply Mr Djaber, the iraqui arab from algeria who liv es now in c anada, Please, do not pollute this very serious site with yo ur bullshit. Mathilda does not deserv e this.  And, ple ase again tr y to impro v e y ou r english, it is a p ity for so meone liv ing in s uc h a country as canada.

proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:56 am | Reply  Why do not y ou com e bac k to I raq, y our o riginal homeland?

 ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 28, 2009 at 2:36 am | Reply Pure Berbers are non-Arab and, of co urse,the original North A fricans. Native or igin Berbers genetically c orrelate muc h more with Western Europeans. Today , the majority of so-called “Berbers” are e ssentially a mix ture of Arab and negro. Such people are only Berber in culture. True autoc hthonous Berbers are a fairly small minority and found essentially in the higher mountain ranges of Morocc o and A lgeria.

djilali djaber | April 30, 2009 at 5:09 pm | Reply To Augustine:  Why to no t call things by the ir na mes I am too, c omes from a mixture marriage:Father arab and mother kaby le. But bec ause of my  look as an Arab ev en my maternal side family called me Arb y (arab) . http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Mr Obama loo ks Black, He conside rs himself Black. His mothe r’s genetic mater iel are rece ssive not dominant.He does not look eve n moiety. Mr proudkaby le ,as Ms Mathilda said ,the o rigin of berbers is from the near east , yo u too ,you could have yo ur descents from Mesopotamia (Irak) like me. Lets go back together Have a look at this:http://panoramio.com/photo/15135048

tzopilotl | May 5, 2009 at 12:36 a m | Reply …arab, arabaitan(OHG)/arbeit(ger)=work, hmmm, a(r)ab/ (tl)ap/ba=tlapa(N)=land= tlalli(N)/pa(N)=paint, flame=tlatla(N)/pa(N)=paint. (a)rab/rabotat(russ)=a(r)beit=work. arabs are tlapas, paintballers, hunters, they come from the race of aplu(Etruscan)= apollo, arts and apples and pomes/ apollome/ plums, they use tlapa/tla(m)pa/lamps alladin. they are abel(bible), they are not cain/in ca(N)=the being, thinking reed people/tlaca(N)=body/caña=cane=acatl(N), not fishers, and not body s/tlaca tlatlaca tlacame. how is this possible? we are all motla(N)/mo(r)tla/mortal, but the arabs  be liev e th ey are water/ atl, alt ia, alaua, allah. ojalá(sp)=if allah wishes, and tlapa, aplu, apollo, the sun. they may have taken sun worship from the egy ptians? where? their calendar is the moo n, so they we re once run by women as we all should be today. ah, but they hav e the horse, definitely  they are tlapa/gobekli spawn, grainers, desert khazars, zatal huyuk lupanares,  bull pe op le, ocelot pe op le, airyana(avestan)=ailia(N)=ally/-yana=  y ani(N)=pilgr im(nom ad= no ma/ no matka(N/ adv )=still, the sa me, alway s, spo ntaneou s). so, pilgrims, y ani=llano(sp)=expanse, plain, prairie/(pr)airie/airyana=nomads who wo rk  for others, always the same, spontaneous. how can one hope to change a people like that?  wande ring war rio rs o f the m oo n in lo v e wit h  water altars, air/ ailia(N)=working for ot hers nev er themslev es, and fire paint,  who be liev e they hav e no bo die s and are apples on the heaven tree ready to fall, http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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upwards?

tzopilotl | May 20, 2009 a t 1:28 am | Reply …berber/ b/v /uel/rb/v /uel/r(letra)= iueliiueli(N)=powerfulpowerful/iveryivery(letra)=ivoryivory, hmmmm, they are neander  blo nd, re d, d ark brown. spanish racism is clear sign they are related ibero/berobero/  v er ov er o/ iue li iue li, y es, fro m ther e. they call themselve s, maliki/ malhuia q uiahuitl(N)=to hono r the tre e/ki, and, the sephardics=toshav im=toxaua(N/v erb)=toss out(ballast),shower. the -im ending is found in elo him/ (oc)elome(N/pl)=birthing cav e animal of  tlatlatzolteotl, iueli/iv ory statue 35k bc  just fou nd(ny time s). the isles, ceuta/c euhtiuh(N)=decline, switch off/c euhy an(N)=where one re sts/ ceui(N)=to become cold/cetl(N)=ice. mellila/mlilt(arab)/melelti, meletiani(N)= repented, turbulent, fm, elleloa(N)= hand out, c ause pain, fm, elli(N)=liver, chest, stomach=(b)elly(E).

carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 1:57 am | Reply …hmmm, berbers are from iberia, they ’re linguistically c onnec ted: iberia/berb er. let me get a berber glossary . tks

carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm | Reply …berberi(gk)=nacre, mother o f pearl, hmmm,  wonde r if the y ’re try ing to say iv or y /iv er y / iueli(N)=powerful, the bear word/uel/v er/be r,  whic h re ferre d to the masto do n du ring the grave ttian? quite a shot in the dark.  be rb er ion (gk)=shabb y gar ment(r aghead). i definitely do n’t acce pt the facile, barbar(russ)/ ualual(N)/warwar ety mology . co nfusion rains. ah, their euro is mtDNA, dated 5 0k bc ,  whe n eu ro pe in be ar/ deer culture, the n the y  go to c aucasus 30 k, then noma, nomatka(N)= spontaneous, the same/ nomad to n.afrika. their name for themselv es, mazyes from mazigh, son of c anon(from ham/de er is more like it, my azo/meat in russian), why, it’s http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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the word mazatl, day 7 booktunes. could it be that old, from 50k bc . stranger things have happe ned, but this is near the top. the egy ptians called them, meshwesh,  be rb er v er sio n, mashwsh=mazatl(7 ). 7 =the food/sustenance number and may have surv ived from berber euro/ mtDNA. hmmm, more words: tefetuth(bb)=butterfly/tepetototl(N)= mountain/tepeptl tototl/bird, hmmm, that one’s from the c aucasus, but,the altai has more butterflys than anybody . tilemte(bb)=food, looks like, tilinia(N)= stretch the bow, with tetl(N)=stone tacked to it, one way of getting food. tlinqui is a weaving word later. asif(bb)=river, c ipactli(N/day 1,so uls), the turkish for dunes=eksibe=ec(atl)s/cip/be (letra)=ecatl cipactli(N)=wind dragon/ rive r. adu/wadu(bb)=wind(but the word, water/ atl), the wind brings water. the bb’s not ex actly  first in line for language, whic h is the reaso n for their arab appelation o f barbaros(gk), applied to their tongue). amghar(bb)=leader, am(a)ca/ghar(letra)= amaca(N)=watergiver=atl maca. ils(bb)=tongue, (t)il(inqui)(letra)= tilinqui(N)/lincua(Lat)/lengua(sp).  weav ing wo rd. tarbat(bb)=girl, aha, t/tla(r)p/ba(ca)tl(letra)= tlapacatl(N)=to wash c lothes, hmmm, semitic ov ertones, tlapacc a-(N)=the prefix for the patience, re signation words, the rebec ca roo t words. tlapa is cave wo rd, first lamps/tla(m)pa from hunter animal fat, also the palli/pa/paint/phallic wo rd, tlapa/lapps(deer pe ople north). http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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azur(bb)=root, tlaza(N)=throw down, on to raza/raiz(sp)=root. izi(bb)=fly, whiz(E)/uitz(N)=arrive, e.g., ecaitz(basque)/ecauitz(N)=ecatl uitz=  wind com e. a(r)gas(bb)=man, aga(arab)/ahauh(mayan/ day20/booktones)/aua(N)=water owner. ul(bb)=heart, y ollotl(N)=heart. ixf(bb)=head, ixf/pia(letra)=ixpia(N)= face/ix(tli)-pia/piety, guard, the later  word, es py /s py . in language, 50 k is not a long time.

tzopilotl | June 10, 2009 at 11:24 pm | Reply …gadzooks, y ou published it, mati, tks. for another look at the same subject, try the tzopilotl wordpress, post berberi/berberion. ah, mazyes=mazatl yectli(N)=excellent(yes) deer.

tzopilotl | June 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm | Reply …linguistic archeology is something new  and very old. new, because we haven’t had pie nauatl before, that is, haven’t used it as the data base for language. old, in that it has always b een there as the incarnation of spirit and soul , always be en for peoples ancient or new. the wild connex ions going back thousands of years using one  word, one u tte ranc e/ ito a(N) take som e getting used to, in sending and rece iving, one c an be way off the mark and sound like a crac k-pot papanatas(sp)/ninny, o r one can be r ight on in the most incredible of ways, riding haplogroups like the c ircus horse that it is through the hoo ps of science, and there are many . it is difficult for one rider to assimilate all the habits of  http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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the piebald horse of nauatl and most difficult is the handling of interpr etation  whic h can range fro m wild surmise to the snick of the lock/tloc of certainty. in this aspect, lingarch and letra differ from demonstrable empires of science, ex cept pe rhaps aviation, for we are dealing  with fluidity s of sou nd passed do wn th ro ough the lips of what seems like an ete rnity  always rece ding before us, whose earthly name is history, but i can assure  y ou the one thing that man has cre ate d that is closest to whateve r eternity he ev er has aspired to, is language, and i ask a little mo re re spect for its findings and its eminence in the workings of  this world where it is the only manifestation of man’s unconquer able drive to not be forgotten in a universe so lonely and fobidding he had to inv ent himself the gods to mistreat him. tks

Q | June 20, 2009 at 9:30 pm | Reply Obv iously North African Berbers are white; no one with the slightest acquaintance with the region would argue otherwise. But this idea that the Tuareg are some how clo sely related to the Beja is problematic to say the least. I don’t know how strong the genetic arguments are (although I notice they scor e ev en closer to the Berbers than to the Beja – 480 v s. 558), but  V an Sertima’s pseudo sc ien tific ety mo logies and far-fetched c om parisons c annot po ssibly be taken seriously. (Where do I begin? How am I ev en supposed to re fute a book that compares a Nubian (?) word for “ory x” with a Tuareg roo t for “female” or “earth” and the (presumably  Geez) name of a king of Aksum, or t hat claims withou t citation that the Mazikes were Beja, or that the “Makhorenes” (sic) of Nubia were spread to A lgeria, or that the Tuareg v eil “was once used to keep them from breathing on the sacred fire”?)  Any way – apar t fro m inter pretatio n issue s (Beja>Tua reg or Tuare g>Beja?) – the re’s an obv ious potential problem with the genetic data: the “Tuareg” are a heterogene ous group.  Apar t fro m the c aste div isio ns (he sa y s the st udies generally treat the ex -slav es separately ,  but do esn’t mentio n any thin g abou t the blac ksmiths), they inc lud e at least one Western Berber-speaking tribe (the Ay t-Tawari) and sev eral others which p robably shifted from  Weste rn Berb er to Tuar eg; and, fro m so me perspe ctiv es, they also includ e th ree nom adic Northern Songhay tribes, the Idaksahak, Igdalen, and Ibe rogan. I’d like to see which tribes and castes Cavalli-Sforza’s data came from before drawing any conc lusions.

slayerx13 | July 1, 2009 at 5:21 pm | Reply http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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the darck berber y ou mention are berber mixe d with slave and arabic invader we c all them in  be rb er “a v er ca ” it m ean sla v e th e ber be r who liv e in high land are whit e they loock  nordic/me diteranean the sami live in north europe if they shary dna with berber it mean that somme north tribe of europe pr obably during ice age go further down in penesula and eve n north africa

slayerx13 | July 1, 2009 at 6:19 pm | Reply - mozabit are not berb er we used them in war they c om from midelest (and also dna giv e me right)and they are shite in religion and give them the right to stail in north africa -touareg are outsider dominated by the berber who giv e them culture and the art of war -kaby le there is two the great : (werre the pure wiht berber are) werre the peaple nev er mixe  with ara b and tu rc k as they hav e th e hate for all stangea and consider him inv er ior, the s mall herre whit berber mixe d with slave and arab/turc k inv ader they loo ck darcker somtimes whit and have berbe r culture and tongue the great try  do dont mix with the small -chaoui are : berber /arab/jew/ turk admixture they are the most enmy of the great kaby le in nortrh africa herre is the pseudo berb er of algeria as conc lusion in spite of the great kabyle who are de cent of pure berbe r and whit all are “bastard” in addition i say that in north africa all parte who was inhabited by the berbe r y ou find  blo nde blue ey ed pe ape l among the pop ulatio n and less wer re the y unhab ite d lic k sahara conc erning morroco it the samme thing all peapel mixe d white arabo turk and slave may be a litel minority in the high land the v ideo y ou poste do nt loock for me berbe r at all and also the pic they are arab from midel est or better a mixture o f both

slayerx13 | July 1, 2009 at 6:27 pm | Reply in spite of the kabyle o f great kabily all are mixed – notte also that in north africa y ou find  blo nde blue ey ed pe ape l among the pop ulatio n in the region who werre inhab ited by be rb er during antiquity and less in the region who was not inhabited by berber lick sahara and south of north africa

tzopilotl | July 20, 2009 at 11:15 pm | Reply …another addition to the, no ma, nomatka, nomatzinco(N)= still, the same, spontaneous, always=nomad: meat/matr(ON)/ mats(Goth)/mat,matam (OSax)/ma z(OHG)/ my aso(rus)/mazat, cmazat(rus)=annoint. mazatl ce ue ntli sev en se(r)ve, tonalamatl. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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matlatl(N)=net, mat lalli, matlallin(N)= dark green, deep blue(netland). ma(N)=hunt land/sea with net, one goe s from deer to fishing all in one v erb, ma=ma(n).

egocentric | July 22, 2009 at 11:35 pm | Reply slayerx13 go back play ing computer games. Kabyle and c haoui intermarry all the time!!!

slayerx13 | Augus t 21, 2009 at 7:18 pm | R eply am hold for cpu gamme !and ye s kabyle from “SMALL KABY LIE “marry with chaoui and ev ry  thing else in north africa but no t from the great.

 jake, borrowing his professor's computer | Septem ber 28, 2009 at 9:11 pm | Reply Cav alli-sforza is not nec essarily right about his claims that afroasiatic–giv en that Greenberg, and nearly all of the mainstream historical linguists say that the phy lum arose in A frica. The place of origin of the U group if it is 60,00 0 y ears of age as Torroni say s would have to be  Afric a.  At ano the r le v el it wo uld be wise to work fro m ev olution ary mo de ls and c autio us thinking. The peopling issue and the c ulture issue might be different things. There are no Berbers in the Near East–and no tex tual ev idence–or hints in the Assy rian and other doc uments suggest that there were Berbers there. The m35/ 81 Y v ariant is essentially restricte d to Africa and has a coalesc ence time that is nearly Holoc ene which fits the linguistic ev idence. Rapid microev olution coupled with social and sexu al selection can alter gene frequenc ies. The U haplogroup is likely African in origin–and it is not surprising that it was found in northern  Afric a. Giv en t hat Cromagnon and later we ste rn Eur opeans are no t biog eo graph ically  European in or igin it is not clear why there is all of this emotion about A frica–there is no getting around Africa’s role in the macroc lade that led to humans.

mathilda37 | December 4, 2009 at 12:04 pm | Reply The place of origin of the U group if it is 60,0 00 y ears of age as Torroni says wou ld have to  be Afric a  Ah no , as m od er n humans we re ou t of Africa by about 85 k ago at the late st. Mod ern Humans were in A ustralia at 60k ago. M81 I ’d actually put down as Neolithic and ex panding with the population mov enment from East to West that y ou see at that time., as M81 appears to c ome from the Nile delta. I’v e seen a lot o f academic dispute about the o rigins of Afro A siatic- and no, A frica is not the generally acc epted point of origin for it. In particluar I hav e issues with Dr Ehrets http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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 work, whic h has pr oto c ushitic at 1 0k old (he rding sheep and go ats) whe n the on ly place goats and sheep were 1 0k ago was syria and Northwards of there. Reconstruc tions of PAA  show up Levantine and NOT African animals and plants. The real problem with an African origin for PAA now is that Chadic speakers all cho w high amounts of Eurasian male ancestry that arrived with the Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesn’t help the ‘Africa’ side of the co in toss. The African AA speakers all show Neolithic input coming from the nile delta and into their area, but there’s no suitable populaiton or cultural mov ementout of Africa to acc ount for the fact Semitic was close e nough to loan  words to prot o I ndo Euro pe ans whe n they (IE’s) first got agric ult ure.

El Mohamed | October 22, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Reply To all :  After all these y ears o f human infestatio n , I find it b oth unne cessar y and child ish to pro v e that a certain people where of a certain complex ion ,after all; humans of all shades hav e contributed to the ill being of planet earth (including all of y ou, y ou tree hugging, save the  whale freaks: y ou be long to the same path etic race). I some times wish that the E.T. cro wds were right so that all this nonsense o f which human is  be tte r wo uld disapp ear.  As a Mediter ranean No rth A fric an I would hav e no proble ms siding with the A liens as they  kick ass (mine included) and then we’ll find out who’s supe rior. El

Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:14 pm | Repl y mathilda37  y ou kno w what i think, i think peo ple are c onfusing the word (bla ck Moo r) with the c olor of  skin?. infact blac k as in the word also c omes from Moor… the fact that there also know as se a people,peo ple of the black sea!. Mauri was the genesis of the name of the ancient kingdom of  Mauretania!.Moor is sometimes used in a wider co ntex t to describe any person from North  Afric a. http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/ancient-history-theories-ofcartography -atlantis-great-pyramid-prehistoric-ice-age-mapping-navigation-stone-agecultures-of-mediterranean-sea-basin-trireme-ships-metallurgy-of-bronze-age-atlanteanemp/

Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:26 pm | Repl y The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid) has been used to deno te the general phy sical type of some o r all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West  Asia, Cent ral Asia, and South A sia. Historic ally , the te rm h as bee n used to de sc rib e the e ntir e population of these regions, Caucasus Mountains= Caucasian race ..grt blog keep it c oming  v er y inte re stin g..

Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:56 pm | Rep ly http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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“Chadic speakers all cho w high amounts of Eurasian male ancestry that arrived with the Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesn’t help the ‘Africa’ side of the co in toss”… “high eurasian ancestry ”—NONSENSE,how c an they have high eurasian ancestry when it is the 3rd mo st observ ed in terms of genetics and the majority of their dna is Haplogroup E  whic h is c om mo n amongst othe r africans? Regardless of what yo u think about ehrets wo rk,yo u are not a q ualified Linguist,therefore,y ou c annot state his works as being fraudulent. just because it doe snt agree with your e uroc entric v iew of AE’s and africans as a whole of being “eurasian” b/c they  dont meet up to y our stereo typ ical perspectiv e of a “big nose and lip”african.

mathilda37 | May 7, 2010 at 12:33 p m | Reply Chadic speakers have high Eurasian ancestry on the Y chr, the Ouldeme hav e about 95 % R1b, and Cameroon as a whole was about 40 % R1b. Joseph, plenty if linguists and other sc holars have issue with the quality o f Ehrets work for the same reasons I do. I suggest if y ou don’t like non- Afroc entric sites that you do n’t come here again.

Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:58 pm | Rep ly Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los A ngeles  Anc ient Egy ptian c iv ilizatio n was , in way s and to an e x tent usually no t re cog nize d, fundamentally A frican. The evidenc e of both language and culture rev eals these African roots. The origins of Egy ptian ethnicity lay in the areas south o f Egy pt. The ancient Egy ptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called A froasiatic or, formerly, HamitoSemitic). The speakers o f the earliest Afrasian languages, acco rding to rec ent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15 ,00 0 and 1 3,00 0 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselve s by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyp tian culture were laid down two thousand y ears later, between 1 2,00 0 and 10 ,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities ex panded northward into Egy pt,  bringing with them a langu age direc tly anc estral to anc ient Egy ptian. They also introd uc ed to Egypt the ide a of using wild grains as food.  A n ew r eligio n came with the m as well. I ts c entral te net ex plains the o ften localized origins o f  later Egy ptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, pro perly speaking, neither monotheistic nor http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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poly theistic. Instead, each loc al community, c omprising a clan or a group of related clans, had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observ ances on that deity . This belief  syste m persists today among sev eral Afrasian peoples of far southwest Ethiopia. And as Biblical scholars have shown, Y ahweh, god of the ancient Hebrews, an A frasian people o f the Semitic group, was originally also such a de ity. The co nnection of many of Egy pt’s predy nastic gods to particular localities is surely a mo dified ve rsion of this early A frasian  be lief. Politic al unific atio n in the late fo urth mille nniu m bro ught the Egy ptian deities together in a new poly theistic sy stem. But their local origins remain amply apparent in the records that hav e come down to us. During the long era between abo ut 1 0,0 00 and 600 0 B.C., new kinds of southern influences diffused into Egypt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today,  with gra ssland or ste ppes in many areas that are no w almost ab solut e desert. Ne w wild animals, most notably the co w, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period. One of the ex citing archeo logical eve nts of the past twenty y ears was the discov ery that the peoples o f the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egy pt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies invo lve d in this momentous dev elopment included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a sec ond major  Afric an langu age family , Nilo -Saharan (Wendor f, Schild, Close 1 984 ; Wendo rf, e t al. 1 982 ). The earliest domestic c attle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 60 00 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East. One major tec hnological adv ance, po ttery -making, was also initiated as early as 900 0 B.C. by  the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who liv ed to the south o f Egy pt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,0 00 y ears before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.  V ery late in the same sp an o f time, the c ultiv ating of crop s began in Egy pt. Since mos t of  Egyp t belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came from areas o f similar climate in the Middle East. Two dome stic animals of Middle Eastern origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered no rtheastern Africa from the north during this era. But sev eral notable early Egy ptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently  invented betwee n 7 50 0 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993 :10 4-125 ). One such cultiv ated cro p was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egy ptian bdt, or “bed o f gourds” (Late Egy ptian bdt, “gourd; cucumb er”), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, “e dible gourd.” Other early Egyptian cro ps of  Sudanic origin included watermelons and c astor beans. (To learn more on how historians use linguistic ev idence, see note at end o f this article.) Between about 5 00 0 and 30 00 B.C. a new era of southern cultural influences took shape. Incre asing aridity pushed more o f the human population of the eastern Sahara into areas  with good ac cess to the water s of the Nile, and along the Nile the bo tto mlands were for t he first time cleared and farmed. The Egy ptian stretches of the river came to form the northern http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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edge of a newly emerge nt Middle Nile Culture Are a, which ex tended far south up the river,  well into the m iddle o f mod er n-day Sudan. Pe op les speaking languages of the East ern Sahelian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family inhabited the heartland of this region. From the Middle Nile, Egy pt gained new items of livelihood between 5 00 0 and 30 00 B.C. One of these was a kind of cattle pen: its Egy ptian name, s3 (earlier *sr), can b e deriv ed from the Eastern Sahelian term *sar. Egyp tian pg3, “bowl,” (presumably from earlier pgr), a  bo rrowing o f Nilo-Sahar an * po Kur, “woo de n bo wl or tr ough,” r ev eals still anothe r adoption in material culture that most probably belongs to this era. One key feature of classical Egyptian political cu lture, usually assumed to have begun in Egyp t, also shows strong links to the souther n influences o f this period. We refer here to a particular kind of sacral chiefship that entailed, in its earliest v ersions, the sending o f  serv ants into the afterlife along with the dec eased chief. The deep ro ots and wide occ urrence of this custom among pe oples who spoke Eastern Sahelian languages strongly imply that sacral chiefship began not as a spec ifically Egyptian invention, but instead as a widely shared dev elopment o f the Middle Nile Culture A rea.  After abou t 3500 B.C., howev er, Egy pt wou ld hav e st art ed to take on a new ro le v is-a-v is the Middle Nile region, simply be cause o f its greater conc entration of population. Growing pressures on land and resource s soon enhanced and transformed the political powers of  sacral chiefs. Unification followed, and the loc al deities of predy nastic times became gods in a new poly theism, while sacral chiefs gave way to a divine king. At the same time, Egy pt passed from the wings to c enter stage in the unfolding human drama of northeastern Africa.  A No te o n the Use o f Linguistic Ev ide nc e for Histo ry  Languages prov ide a powerful set of tools for probing the cultural history of the peoples who spoke them. Determining the re lationships betwee n particular languages, such as the languages of the A frasian or the Nilo-Saharan family, gives us an o utline history of the societies that spoke those languages in the past. And bec ause each wo rd in a language has its own individual history , the v ocabulary o f every language forms a huge archive of  docu ments. If we can trace a particular word back to the c ommon ance stor language of a language family, then we know that the item of culture co nnoted by the word was known to the people who spoke the ancestral tongue. I f the word underwent a meaning change  be twe en t hen and no w, a c or re sponding c hange must hav e taken pla ce in the c ultural idea o r practice re ferred to by the word. In co ntrast, if a word was borrowed from another language, it attests to a thing or dev elopment that passed from the one c ulture to the o ther. The English  bo rrowing, for ex amp le, of castle, duke, parliame nt, and many other po litic al and le gal t erms from Old Norman French are ev idence o f a Norman period of rule in England, a fact confirmed by documents. Reference s Cited:

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Ehret, Christopher, Nilo-Saharans and the Saharo-Sahelian Neolithic. In African  Arc hae olog y : Foo d, Me tals and Towns. T. Shaw, P Sinc lair , B. Anda h, an d A . Okpoko, eds. pp. 10 4-125. London: Routledge. 1 993 Ehret, Christopher, Reco nstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): V owels, Tone Consonants, and Vo cabulary . Los Angeles: University of California Press, Berkeley . 1 995  Wendo rf, F. , et al., Saharan Explo itat ion of Plants 80 00 Y ears B.P. Natu re 35 9:7 21 -7 24. 1982  Wendo rf, F. , R. Schild , and A. Close, ed s. Cattle -Kee pers o f the Eastern Sahara. Dallas: Southern Methodist Univ ersity, Department of Anthropo logy . 1984

mathilda37 | May 7, 2010 at 12:22 p m | Reply Let me just comment on and co rrect this Ehret paper.. The o rigins of Egyptian ethnic ity lay in the areas south of Egypt.  Well y es and no . The DNA sho ws a larg e migratio n into No rth A fric a fro m the Le v ant about 8k ago, and into Southern Egypt Nubia from the western de sert about 1 0k ago. It  would be an A fric an c ulture wit h near e aster n cer amics, c ro ps and peo ple . A s for Afro  Asiat ic b eing fro m Sou th o f Egy pt, ev en A fric an o rigin suppor ters gener ally do n’t pick this area as the origin of Afro Asiatic. There is now a growing body of evidenc e to suggest  Afrasian actually com es from Asia (lon g sto ry ). They also introduce d to Egypt the idea o f using wild grains as foo d   WIld grains were b eing used as food in the near east from ab ou t 20,0 00 y ears ago . There  was a migratio n fro m the ne ar e ast into Nor th A fric a (Caps ian) abo ut 1 0k ago . WHich is moot as Egy ptians were harve sting wild grains about 1 6,00 0 y ears ago (they hav e flint sickles from that era). One of the exciting archeo logical eve nts of the past twenty years was the discov ery that  the peo ples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated  these c attle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The Nabta PLaya c attle have be en shown to be wild cattle. They were prob ably b eing captured from the wild and kept, as yo u see this behav iour in another Saharan site with antelope.  But se veral no table e arly Egyptian c rop s came fro m Sudanic a gric ult ure , indep ende ntly invented betw een 7 50 0 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples

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NO. This is based o n his linguistic dates which are generally about 3 5% out of sy nc. So 9,00 0 BP turns into 6,000 BP. Its a long story to do with goats and sheep. almost 2,00 0 y ears before the first pottery w as made in the Middle East   Actually the re are pot s of a co mparable age in Iran. Pe op le in the near e ast prefe red to use lighter pitch co v ered leather or plasterware bo wls for a long time. Asian ceramics arrive in lower Egyp t with the neolithic (pretty cruddy compare d to the Nubian). To be fair, they  only discov ered the Iranian pot a few years ago.. Neve r asked by anyo ne: if Egy ptian culture came from the wester n Sahara why didn’t Egyptians spe ak Nilo Saharan like Nubians?

 whatever u like | December 20, 2009 at 6:19 am | Reply i have been researc hing my gene s and heritage for some time now. although i co mmend yo ur research no thing can ex plain how much rac e and language makes up who y ou are. as an african american who has nev er been to africa i cannot tell a berber who’s ancestors be en in africa for at least 3,000 y ears that they are “c aucausian” and im am a “true” african bec ause i am darker or have anc estry from where ev er darker people are in africa? lest they look at me and laugh. also scientist say african people hav e more dna v ariation (because o f early history  africa was important with MANY civ ilizations their was early racial intergration o kay.) so  back to m e ac tually be cause i d o hav e so me plain ind ian b lood (fro m no rth america) y ou will find it difficult to match my dna to any one from africa. which is a reason why it is rare to match a african american dna to a group or re gion in africa ev en if y ou can c learly tell in our features that we have african ancestors!genetics, and language is best ex perienced by  influence like for instance i am christain and speak english (not a big deal bec ause i’m from the united states.) actually not speaking from c harts and graphs i know that culture is y our true identity marker. as an american i lov e baseball and mov ies and participate in most holiday o bserv ations; as i hav e bee n taught. just like in most african american families it is a normal thing at family gatherings for the o ldest people to tell stories and the y ounger one s listen and the older yo u are the more y ou are respec ted in the family y ou will rece ive many  gifts at family reunions and peo ple will vigh for y our attention and the older children watch the y ounger c hildren who knows how and where this tradition started but it here and mostly   y ou r he ritage makes y ou who y ou are if so meone told me to mmo ro w i was par t jap ane se it still would’t change my identity that has been intergrated in my familiy’s structure. all i co uld do is smile say and ‘that’s nice’ and acc ept it. god bless.

Elany | January 21, 2010 at 8:36 pm | Reply Egyp tian people desc ribed a tribe o f Lybia called “Libu” as hav ing alot of Blonde Haired o r Light eye s people among them. Acc ording to a modern French History , there had been a  v ast migrat ion of Lybian tribe s (Berbe rs) to western parts (as A lge ria , whic h was alr eady  inhabitted by Berbers c alled Numidians) these “neighbours” inv aders were c alled “Zenatis” and now repre sent a big majority of the Berbers o f Algeria and Rifans. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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I think that the Libu tribe was surely a part o f these Zenatis..that would be why , y ou find more Light complex ions among Berbers o f Algeria , than these of Ly bia , because most o f  Libus settled through Algeria : example : Chawi , Kabylian and Rifans are Zenati tribes. I’m not Pro-something! My mothe is Algerian and my father is of Sephardic desc ent.

tayo | February 24, 2010 at 8:49 pm

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I hav e this article ve ry interesting. As so me who is Black African from Western Nigeria, I have always known that Berbers are not black africans in any shape or form, that why africa is alway s been mainly div ided into two ,the North (Berbers, A rabs etc) and the rest which mainly Black A frican. I would not c all an Ethiopian black african, ev ery body back home knowns the diifference and no one care s, because we all have our own div erse and wonderful rich cultures whether it be Berbers, A rabs or Black African all of which by the way is v ery , ve ry d iverse with indiv idual cultures, langugues, history etc . I think the afrocentric thing most be a Black Western idea, not a Black A frican o ne.

Uraeus | April 6, 2010 at 2:24 pm | Reply Tayo.  Y ou are ar e ma n of co mmo n sense , and I to tally agr ee with what y ou hav e wr ite n.  And y es afro centrism is a Blac k Weste n Idea; mainly a Blac k-Ame ric an I deolog y . I hope so me of those Afroc entrists will read yo ur post here on Matild`s blog, because these Afrocentrists from North-America have nev er been outside their own country letalone Africa with all its human diversity . But they won`t be pleased with what yo u hav e  writen; be cause it go es against the ir warped Ideolog y . I wou ld like to thank y ou for y ou r comments! ps I am a Kabyle Berber.

Taziri | March 5, 2010 at 8:30 pm | Reply Thank you for the great site, it is ve ry interesting to see different v iews, I am chaoui berber from Aures A lgeria residing in the USA, my v illage is a small one in the Auresean mountains called T’kout, it has not been A rabnisd and all are v ery white, blond to brown hair, green,  blu e, a nd b ro wn ey es. We still do old c erem onies and speak only be rb er , many are st ill pagans in the area, with many new c ustoms brought from the Jewish.. We were no t touche d  by the Arab s no r c an y ou see any impac t of what t he A rabs b ro ugh t during the I slamic mov ement. There are many o ld cav e paintings that are prehistoric in the mountain areas showing white peo ple killing and eating animals along with ceremony paintings.. I do not  be liev e th at they would hav e lie d ab ou t the c olor of their skin bac k the n, b ut as there we re so many inv asions in my ance stors lands many are as did get mixed.. I hav e read one ancient http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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Roman book that said when they had landed and went into the mo untains, they found a  be rb er qu ee n Dihy a Damia wh o wa s white, her peo ple were white with light c olored hair and  barb aric..thu s the name ber be r c ame upon us.. do y ou re ally think histor ical books and paintings lie? we are so full of hate now a day s we get c olored blind.. again thank yo u for the  wonde rful s ite I hav e boo kmarke d it and welcom e y ou to come t o my v illage t o e x plo re ou r paintings, mountains, and old v illages that are prehistoric

Keltici | March 14, 2010 at 6:30 pm | Reply Mathilda: Can yo u do us a big fav or and respond to the c lown know as “Genoc enrist” ov er on eupedia.com as regards Berber origins (Berber thread). I c an only argue to a small ex tent, since as I’m lac king information and don’t hav e the time.

Mia | March 20, 2010 at 5:46 am | Reply  Wow! What an amazing b log! I wa s re searching information about the p eo ple of the Canary  Islands —– where my family is from, and I came across this blog. Many thanks Mathilda37 !

Uraeus | April 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Reply Matilda May I ask why my last post, where I replied to Tayo has not bee n posted? Was there something in my reply to Tayo that yo u found offensive?

mathilda37 | May 6, 2010 at 8:53 pm

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 Was the re something in my re ply to Tay o that y ou fou nd o ffensiv e No, I have n’t been to the blog in months, and I need to pass all co mments due to sex ually  ex plicict abusive material being posted here before.

amazigh | May 9, 2010 at 7:41 p m | Reply Thanks for sharring importent information in this blog. It was very nice.

midax | May 14, 2010 a t 9:41 pm | Reply thank you for this rich blog where infos are interressant. africa will beleav e great!

Mike | May 15, 2010 at 6:28 am | Reply  At the gu y who said A frocentrism is a “b lac k” we ste rn id ea y ou are tot ally wro ng. Many   Afric ans know the ir his tory and also prac tic e a pan-Afric anism suc h as Mo lefi Kete Asante http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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and Cheikh Diop who I believ e is from Senegal. I will agree that their is a such thing as A frocentrism but there is also a such thing as Euroc entrism. Who is to say one ov erides the other in correc tness? It all depends on your  world v iew and ho w y ou look at things . The so called “c redib le sou rc es” that e v er y bo dy  choo ses to believ es will always b e RIGHT to one person and WRONG to ano ther. So in essence we are all biased to some extent. However, genetics are rec orded blueprints of  history, but they do n’t ALWAY s tell us the entire history. I believ e one should study the oral traditions of a people and compare their or gin with the current c ulture. Its not always abou t  bla ck, white, arab, etc . Bec aus e peo ple fell t o realize that the stere ot y pic al A rab is not the ONLY natives to the middle east. There was a large ex tent Negritos, and other NATIVE “black” peo ple (non-african) who established civ ilizations there. Im ranting, but basically   what i’m try ing to say is ev ery one is e ntit led to be liev e wh at they want to be liev e. But at the end of the day humanity started at one plac e.

mathilda37 | May 15, 2010 at 10:13 am | Reply But at the end of the day humanity started at one plac e  Actually no it did n’t. The DNA sy udies sho w we hav e Nenad er thal DNA in us to o. was a large extent Negritos, and other NATIVE “black” peo ple (non-african) wh o established c ivilizations there. They are there, but there’s no ev idence they predate the Islamic slave trade or built the civ ilisations there.

 Anonimous | May 19, 2013 at 8:57 pm | Reply Dear Mathilda  A c om ment Ev ery body dream with extraterrestrial inteigence. On said inteligence c ame from space and spread all ov er from space? Some Legens seems said that  We beliv e to know prety good, how human spr ead o v er earth bu t at time we suppo se inteligence were with all of them from the begining Why? Don´t seem v ery clev er think that human born, from the v ery begining with all the “ex tras” specialli with the “inteligence packet ” Is mo re natural, (Evoluc ionism), think tan diferents human gro ups essais his own  way to inteligenc e.  And the inte lige nc e su ddenlt was just in a po int o f the p lanet in this v er y mo ment.  We can also thing that the intelige nc e bor n just in o ne p llace in e arth and was ex tende d fro m this point to all ov er by both invasions and sex /rape b labla by spreaded the smarts genes ( http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

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