-=-=-=-=-=-=== MISC -=-=-=-=-=-=== Dave I just took a look on ebay to see what you bought. The van looks about in the same shape as mine, but from the pictures I see a couple of things that you should check out. I noticed both behind the main battery box on either side of the small rear battery box that contains one traction battery and the accessory battery. First, I see an empty air hose on the right side. This hose should have a blower on it that runs during the charge cycle to clear out the hydrogen gas that generated. Without the blower there is danger of explosion, so this is a safety issue. Second, I see some odd wiring on the left side. This is the location of the safety disconnect. In the motor control circuit there is the actual electronic controller, a safety contactor that opens / closes just off zero throttle, and a manual safety disconnect that can be used if both the controller and the contactor fail. On a stick shift, the disconnect isn't absolutely critical since the clutch can be depressed ant the motor allowed to fly apart. However, you probably should be sure that the disconnect is there and working. ...My van is 1979 and things may have changed by 1981. My owner's manual says 50 miles top range. It is closer to 30 miles in my experience. Your batteries and motor look the same as mine, but perhaps the controller is better. The seller says the controller was "specifically designed to propel full sized motor vehicles." My controller is a GE EV-1 which is a fork lift controller. Only the external wiring was modified to make it appropriate for a motor vehicle. --------------------------
==================================== Hi Mike (and all) From someone who has the strongest tendency to DIY imaginable, for most things in a full-sized EV, it is not worth the risk to build most things from scratch. That said, the next best thing to DIY, is scrounge and make-do. That is where it gets fun. 144V system? wreck a 72V forklift and put two contactors in series to get the voltage rating on the contacts. Control a boost/buck transformer to trim rectified (US) mains to control the charging. Motor from a forklift, with modification (and buy a Zilla controller to look after it with the money saved). Or use a robust motor such as a 9" and build your own controller. Find your local industrial junk dealers and haunt their yards. I have acquired: Fuses, fuse holders, copper bar, cable, heatshrink tubing, amp and volt meters, current shunts, motors, fans, auxiliary relays, relay bases, cable glands, Industrial terminals, GE EV1 (SCR) controller, contactors, traction battery
chargers. In addition I could have had: rubber sheet (to go under the batteries), fibreglass boxes (to make battery boxes from), traction batteries (the heavy long-life type) and other stuff. James
-=-=-=-=-========= MOTOR -=-=-=-=-=========
----------------------------------------------------------------apparently 80k miles is expected life of motor brushes. (or 3000 hours) ----------------------------------------------------------------* From: Robb Zuk * Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:18:36 -0700 * Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List * Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Hi All, Thanks in advance for info on where to buy an appropriate commutator stone and instructions on how best to use it. It's time to replace the brushes in my GE motor (stock Jet Electravan / Subaru 600) and I'd like to give the commutator a proper cleaning. Last time I did this I used 1500 grit sandpaper while turning the motor via the wheel and gearbox. I think perhaps using a commutator stone while running the motor would be better and easier? Robb Zuk Wanted: Commutator Stone and Instructions -------------------------------------Subject: Wanted: Brushes for GE 20 hp Comments: To: [email protected]
, [email protected]
Where is a good place to get replacement brushes for my GE 20 hp? It's in a stock Jet Electravan / Subaru 600 and as near as I can tell, the motor plate reads:
Model: 5BT1346838 HP: 20.9 SERIES V: 90 134 LR8-553LR RPM: 3707 BV CL M Duty 1 HR 140c The old ones are now down to 1 mm (1/16") from the rivet holes. Thanks, Robb Zuk One more thing... The old brushed are marked (or were marked :) JR456 Robb Zuk --------------------------------------------------* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List * Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Hi, all I just got a new set of brushes for my GE motor (the 37 hp unit originally used by Jet in their pickup and van conversions) Price was $97. Given that I paid 700 bucks for the motor, adapter plate, hub, bell housing and clutch in the first place, it's a non-trivial sum. Is this reasonable? I've never bought anything like this, so I have nothing to compare. Thanks Russell Groves Price of New Brushes -Russell, I paid $65 for a set of four brushes for the little 11hp GE motor my Voltswabit has in it. Sounds like you're in the ballpark. Bob Oldham Re: Price of New Brushes -My contact for my GE motor and Brushes are which was a while back. General Electric Box 1316, Northland Center Station South Field, MI 48075 1-313-552-3000 Bought two sets of spare brushes which is 8-each per set or total of 16 brushes. These cost me about $500.00 back then. These are like tool steel and still running the originals on the back section on the commentator while the front section worn down only 1 inch from a 2 inch long brush. Roland ------------------2-6-05
Otmar, I just recently had to find brushes for my Elec-trac GE sep-ex motor. I called Repco, talked to Scott Tussey, and he dug up the right brushes for me. He was VERY helpful and knowledgeable. He said he's been selling brushes since '72. I highly recommend him: http://www.repcoinc.com Repco Inc. 6 Eves Dr, Marlton NJ 08053 Scott Tussey 1-800-822-9190 . . . Thanks a bunch Markus, Your lead turned out to be the best one for me. I just ordered a set of brushes from Scott, he was very knowledgeable about them. If anyone needs brushes, these guys know their stuff and had the best prices as well. -Otmarhttp://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla. http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914 ----------------------------------------------------------From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain Hi Mike, Which motor do you have ? Brushes are supposed to last 3000 hours according the an engineer at Prestolite. I had one set of brushes that lasted less than 1000 hours. The wire leading to the brush just vaporized. The Prestolite engineer said it was a manufacturing defect and sent me a complete new set for free. I have not had a problem since. Are you possibly hot footing around, drawing more than the rated amps of the motor and thereby wearing out the brushes prematurely ?? Menlo Park III, Bill ______ ---------------------------------------------------------------------From: Robb Zuk Subject: Wanted: Brushes for GE 20 hp Comments: To: [email protected]
, [email protected]
Where is a good place to get replacement brushes for my GE 20 hp? It's in a stock Jet Electravan / Subaru 600 and as near as I can tell, the motor plate reads: Model: 5BT1346838 HP: 20.9 SERIES V: 90 134 LR8-553LR RPM: 3707 BV CL M Duty 1 HR 140c The old ones are now down to 1 mm (1/16") from the rivet holes. Thanks, Robb Zuk One more thing...
The old brushed are marked (or were marked :) JR456 --------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Bill, I have the GE motor. (3000 hours) X (30 miles / hour) = 90000 miles No, I don't hotfoot. When you commute 20 miles with a range not much greater, you drive conservatively. Short of taking the motor to a shop which may not know how to deal with it anyhow, how can I check the motor efficiency? Thanks, Mike -------------------Ricky, Can you provide all of the data on the nameplate? I probably donated that system to your school when I worked at GE (1993-1996). Using a fan is dependant on the ambient temperature and vehicle weight (along with many other factors). If it is the 96V series wound motor, it will have a thermal switch built in that you can use to activate a fan only when the motor is hot. I wrote an article that I gave to high schools and college's for installation guidelines. I will try and find this and forward it to you. I also have speed torque curves for the 96V motor I can send. This will be very helpful for determining optimum shift points for efficiency and power. ================= >So process of elimination here, if I just hook the >> field in series with the armerature and use jumper >> cables and hook it up to a 12 volt battery I should >> at least be able to get the motor to spin right? Nope!!! Connect the F1 and F2 terminals FIRST to 12Vdc, it should only draw a couple of amps or less. Then connect A1 and A2 to 12V (the combination doesn't matter). Make sure all other connections are off the motor (control etc.). This may seem confusing, but here is an example of a series motor; +12Vdc S1---S2--A1---A2 -12Vdc Shunt/sepex connection +12Vdc F1---A1 -12Vdc F2---A2 The field on this motor has �12Vdc and so does the Armature. Regarding the initial hookup; Even if you swapped F1/F2 or A1/A2 it should just turn the wrong direction, not blow things up. Where did you get this aftermarket motor? When I worked at GE every motor for EV's had class H insulation (including all of the forklifts, this is standard). You may also measure resistance between motor frame and terminals to see if
there is a short. Rod ----------The first thing you can do, is to clean the motor while it is in place and running! Yes, I said running. Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution, the type which is a dielectric type. I have clean all types of motors, while running in place. You can even fill a cleaning tank with this cleaner and submerse running motors in it. This works, if the motor has some exhaust air grills on the end or bottom of the motor. After you clean the motor. Then test it out to see what the results are. Before you clean the motor, you should take a resistance test of the input motor leads to motor chassis, voltage and ampere readings of the motor. After you clean the motor, repeat these test to see if there is a difference. On my motor, I will see a difference of resistance to ground of 50K ohm before cleaning and 20M ohm after cleaning. When you at a motor shop, you can get some commentator cleaning stones and maybe under cutting tools. This is the next step, if you have some arcing. Also brush spring tension should be look at. After you clean and maybe stoning the commentator, than you again spray the motor while running with a dielectric compound that lubricated all moving parts, which may be degraded by the the initial cleaning. The electronics cleaning compounds are made by Chemelectronics, normally found at electronics parts suppliers which is in a spray can that should not be used on arcing type motors. The motor cleaning compounds are normally found at some motor shops, is in fluid form that you used in a spray bottle. This can be done without removing the motor from the EV. Roland ----- Original Message ----From: "STEVE CLUNN" To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: using a brush motor after long sitting
>> >> >> >> >>
I got some time to do some work on Paul's 2 motor Porsche , when I started it up the one motor made lots of brush sparks , I let it idle for a few minutes , but the arcing didn't go away , This motor worked fine 6 months ago , the car was out side and has seen 2 hurricanes , so dirt or water has
>> >> >> >> >>
been blown in it. I'm thinking that the brushes are not sliding in there holders , motor is in a hard place to get to , . any easy ideas , taking the motor out would not be easy . Steve clunn
-Hi Steve,Try using a brush seater stone,then blowing out the dust being careful not to breath the dust. Dennis Berube ---------Thanks for all the tips ,everybody . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roland Wiench" > > Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution, no real motor shops around my little town , I'll have to send off for this , .Buy taking out the batteries that are right along side the motor I was able to get right to the brushes . 2 sets where in so tight they wouldn't come out without a lot of pulling and wiggling ( the other 2 where also hard to get and I don't think the spring was moving them) . got them all out and lightly sanded the sides , looks like water marks on them . Blow everything out , brushes sliding nice now , put it all back and hooked a 6v battery to it and it took right off. Before I couldn't get it to spin on less that 36v , no arcing , , looks good , . the type which > is a dielectric type. I have clean all types of motors, while running in place. You can even fill a cleaning tank with this cleaner and submerse running motors in it. I had some contact cleaner in a spray it on also , Steve Clunn
can that I got from radio shack , I sprayed
-------Steve, You can get electric motor cleaner and contact cleaner in fairly large cans at your local Home Depot. It is in the electrical dept. Try to find someone that has been in the dept for awhile to find it for you, usually only a couple cans in the run and its often tucked away as its not a fast moving item. CRC brand IIRC. David Chapman. --------------> Reliance Electric, a motor repair shop I worked at for a few years would NOT use any type of contact cleaners on the armature.The mica on the comm has natural fissures that you could wash carbon dust into.We would however steam clean
completly disasembled dc motors and then bake .Dennis Berube --------------It is best to replace the bearings at that time when you break down a motor. Go to a motor shop for the bearings. Used seal bearings with high temperature grease, Normally made by GE or Westinghouse. While you are there, and if you can take the rotor in, see what they recommend for undercutting the commentator. You can get your own undercutting tools and commentator cleaning stones if needed. Dark is good, you want a dark tan color on the commentator, as long as there is no deep scratches or a deep recessed in the commentator brush area. Take a note of the brush type and you may want to order brushes at this time. The best brushes will be pre curved and just a touch softer than the commutator. My brushes are as hard as tool steel running on a cast bronze commentator segments for over 20 years with out replacements. You may want to have the commentator, micro mirror, which some motor shops do. It involves taking the surface down to a mirror finish, that increases the brush life. It does not take so much brush wearing to fill a rough surface left by lathing or stoning, which is the break in of a commentator, making it dark tan color. If you motor does not have a internal fan for cooling, you could add a blower type fan, by mounting it on the brush covers. My is a 6 inch 12 VDC Dayton blower fan, that I install a 6 inch diameter carburetor air filter on. If your motor is disassemble, that you could paint the inside casing of the motor. I used appliance epoxy paint that does need any primer. I painted my motor white in the inside and black on the outside with this paint. Its very durable and its acid resistance. It made the inside of the motor very slick for brush dust to be blown out the rear screen grills. One more resistance test you could do on the motor is the field and rotor to motor case continuity. When it gets down to 50K Ohms, it is time to clean the motor from the brush dust that is tracking. The area on the front of the commentator to the motor shaft, normally tracks the brush dust and decreases the resistance to ground. In this area, I painted the front of the commentator down and on the shaft up to the bearing surfaces with high temperature motor enamel which you can get from a motor shop in either a spray or can. The resistance to ground should read over 3 to 20 meg.ohms with a clean motor. Roland
No cooling needed... they have thier own internal fans. blow the crap out of it. Find a 12 volt battery and jumper cables... Run motor. listen for bad things. Get some commutator stones from Grainger. Get the 3/8 by 3/8 white stones. run motor stone motor until the com is prefectly clean. Let run on 12 volts for about 10 hours. It should draw less than 30 amps and run at over 1000 rpm on 12 volts. Do this until the comm gets a light straw color or golden brown. Reinstall. Be happy. If you need to pull and inspect all 8 brushes. All should be polished and show swept marks from leading edge to trailing edge. Replace any that are cracked chipped or worn much more than others. All 8 should be withing .250 of the length of each other. Look for melted copper brush leads, or loose and damaged leads. If the slots have copper or are stuffed full of carbon, scrape it out with a steel screw driver. Blow out dust. Then spin it for ever. It's pretty simple motor service... ================== Rod Hower W8RNH Many folks run these motors at 144 Volts with no problem. A few racers run them at 192 Volts but start having problems with arcing and overheating the commutator. These are very conservatively rated motors! The main thing is to not overheat them or overrev them. At 144 Volts you can get amazing short-term power -- Just be careful if running up a steep 5 mile grade :) Robb On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:31:52 -0500, Mark Freidberg wrote: >>My Van has the original G.E. motor which is rated @ 90 volts. >> >>The 16 6 volt T-105 batts = 96v, but really more like 102 volts when fully >>charged. How many more batts can I add (in new pack) without damaging the >>motor? ------------------------------Subject: Re: Motor Removal Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Andy, I had my motor out last year for a new clutch. Easy job. Took me about 20 minutes for the job. You need stands a floor jack and normal hand tools.
At 12:21 AM 10/11/03 -0700, you wrote: >I am getting ready to fix up my ElectraVan and get it back on the road >again. ------------------Subject: Re: Motor Removal Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Andy, Not to argue with Rob, but you have to take into account that he is a mechanic. 20 minutes of his time is somewhat more for me. I have the GE motor and I don't know if the Prestolite is different. I found that I was not able to get enough clearance to disengage the motor from the transmission. So, I had to loosen the transmission. I kept having to get just a little more clearance, and so I kept having to remove or loosen more transmission stuff until only the shift linkage and one CV joint was still attached. The second time, I just removed the transmission to start with. The transmission is light but has a lot of stuff to disconnect. The motor is very heavy, be careful. Thanks, Mike ------------------------Subject: Re: Motor Removal Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Mike I also have the GE motor and did not have any clearance problem getting the motor out. Removed the wires, the mount bolt on the motor and the bell housing bolts and out it came. You are correct, it is heavy. Rob. > >I have the GE motor and I don't know if the Prestolite is different. ----------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Motor Removal Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Rob, You may have given me an "Aha." Did you remove the 2 bolts from the motor housing to the mounting bracket at the brush end of the motor or did you remove the single bolt that holds the mounting bracket to the frame. I removed the single bolt and perhaps there is more clearance by removing the two motor bolts instead. I'm sure that Andy would like to know ... Thanks, Mike ---Subject: Comments: To: In-Reply-To: Content-Type:
Re: Motor Removal EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Mike, you are correct! mounting bracket from the brush end. 10/13/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Rob, > >You may have given me an "Aha." ---
I did remove all 3 bolts and removed the At 02:54 PM
From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
"Michael A. Radtke" Re: Motor Removal EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Rob, I wonder why it never occurred to me to remove the bracket? I suppose that's why you are a mechanic and I write software. Thanks for the tip. Mike --------==================================== Sorry if I'm coming into this late, but if it's a DC series wound, you need to seat the brushes correctly. It's a matter of using a stone, and abrading them with a slightly concave shape. The brushes have little springy clip holders, and they pull to the side and up, then you can pull the brushes up. The idea is to give them more contact area. --- ohnojoe wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
I just got my new motor installed in my S-10 (I also have a tracker, which I might be selling soon) Any tips on breaking in the new motor? Thanks in advance. Joe
--Run the motor on about 12 volts for 24 hours to seat the brushes. It is important to keep the RPM down to a safe level. 12 volts might be too much for low voltage series motors. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [email protected]
-=-=-=-=-==== CHARGING -=-=-=-=-====
---------The charger is fairly easy to remove from the van, but it is heavy, so you need to think the supports through before you discover that you need one. 1) Remove the connections. They all have plugs. the way so they don't "hang up" on something.
Tape the wires out of
2) Remove the bumper. 3) Loosen the bolts that hold the charger to the cross member. the bolts that holds the cross member.
Two choices: 4a) Support the charger from below and remove the bolts holding the cross member. Then lower the cross member with the charger attached. 4b) With an the charger either side charger can down.
assistant to keep things stable, remove the bolts holding to the cross member. The remove one cross member bolt on so the cross member can pivot. With some maneuvering, the be tilted toward the rear of the car and then slid back and
Thanks, Mike =============================== Most chargers are classified by how the current is controlled. You have a classic "Variac Charger." You control the current with the knob on the variac. Be careful. There is no current until the crest of the AC waveform exceeds the voltage of the battery then the current rises very quickly. If you want to implement a two stage or three stage charge profile, you will need to put a motor on the knob and program a controller to turn the motor to adjust the knob. Be sure to fuse and measure the current at the output of the bridge going to the battery. You should also put a fuse between the variac and the bridge. If there is a problem, this are where you will need the overcurrent safety. It would also be appropriate to put a GFCI or isolation transformer on the
input of the variac to reduce the shock hazard. The GFCI is lighter but is subject to nuisance trips. The isolation transformer is heavier but immune to nuisance trips. Either one will reduce the hazard. Some people like both. Others like one or the other. Some people don't mind running without. You are the designer and you are the user. You make your choice and build it your way. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [email protected]
--Hello Dave, The variac AC voltage input adjustments should vary the DC voltage at 0 amps when it is not connected to any load or battery. When it is connected to a battery and the variac is turn all the way down, you should still get 0 volts at 0 amps on the AC side. If you have a AC voltmeter Amp meter or Shunt and Amp which would be 0 volts and the standing battery volts
on the AC side of the bridge and a DC voltmeter and DC meter on the DC Side, you be able to read the results 0 amps on the AC side. On the DC side, you will read and 0 amps.
Now when you start turning up the variac, you will note that the AC and DC voltage rises. If a 12 volt battery has a standing voltage of 12.5 on it and you turn up the voltage where it reads 12.6 volts, than you should see a slight rise of amperes. Continue to turn up the variac, you will see that the DC voltage RISE and the DC ampere will RISE. On a 12 volt battery or for every 12 volt battery, the maximum voltage you want to go to is about 15.46 volts for a balance charge and 15 volts for a normal or bulk charge. The ampere will rise as the voltage rises. On a discharge battery, you may only get to 13 volts on the DC meter and the ampere could be as high as 20 amps or more. So you will have to limit your ampere limit with the variac adjustments. Lets say you set the variac so the AC voltage is at 15 volts or higher and the DC battery charging current is now at 20 amps and the voltage is at 13 volts, the voltage will continue to rise while the ampere will drop just like any taper type charger. This setup is normally a variable AC voltage type with variable DC voltage and ampere. Roland --
The variac knob controls both current and voltage. On a variac charger, you should permanently install a voltmeter and an ammeter. Without meters to know what you're doing, you can easily set the knob to absurd levels and kill something. I'd also suggest installing a circuit breaker on the AC input rather than a fuse. Mis-adjustment of the knob is going to blow the fuse often. It's much easier to reset a circuit breaker than replace fuses. Starting with the knob low, the charging current will be zero. As you turn up the knob, the voltage rises but the current stays at zero until you reach the point where the charger's voltage exceeds the battery's voltage. As you turn the knob above this point, the voltage barely rises, but the current rises quickly. Charging is an entirely manual process. You crank up the knob until you get the desired charging current and voltage, and wait the desired time. You'll have to keep readjusting the knob from time to time as the battery charges. -99% of all battery chargers have little or no filter capacitors. The ones that do have them to protect the charger -- the batteries themselves don't care. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that pulsed charging currents actually improve battery performance. The only exception is when a large charger is asked to deliver very low currents -- for example, a large 20-amp charger that is float charging a very small fully charged battery at 0.2 amps. With no filter capacitors, the charger is likely to actually be supplying high-current pulses only a few percent of the time (like 5 amp pulses at a 4% duty cycle = 0.2 amps average). The high peak currents into a fully charged battery cause extra gassing and grid corrosion. -One of the more exciting things you can do with a homemade charger is to connect it to a battery pack in the wrong polarity. This will connect the rectifier diodes across the battery pack in the forward-biased direction and short circuit the battery pack. The result can be spectacular. Use an Anderson connector or some other plug/socket setup which can't be connected wrong to connect the charger to the battery pack. If you use alligator clips it's just a matter of time until they get accidentally conected backwards. ->Hi all, >> How do I size the variac and bridge rectifier (which is also a shotsky diode?)? Does the variac have to be sized to the Pack V? If so, how do I add batteries later to increase pack V, oversize the Variac now?
Make sure the diode is rated for the maximum pack voltage you intend to charge. The diode needs to be rated for as much as the 1 minute rate on the variac. >> How do I make it adjustable for 110 V and 220V input? Will the variac handle it? You will need a 240 input variac to use it on 240 VAC. A 120 VAC variac can be used on half of the 240 and make it a [0 to 140 VAC] or a [120 to 260 VAC] input to the rectifier but you will need to flip a switch for each configuration. >> Joe Smalley said to put a V meter and fuse between the Variac and Bridge, and also a A meter and fuse between the rectifier and pack, and put a GFCI at the input. Should that be a hardwired GFI circuit breaker? To make it into a 2 stage charger put a motor/controller on the variac knob. I intended an ammeter on output of the variac and a voltmeter on the output of the rectifier. Each of these need to be fused (or breaker) separately for the case of a rectifier failing shorted. The fuse between the battery and the line is to prevent a fire from the battery backfeeding into the failed rectifier. The fuse between the variac and the rectifier is to prevent the shorted bridge from burning out the variac. -In my solar work I occasionally come across work done by amateurs eg using a thermal overload AC only circuit breaker on a 120V battery bank. If this ever trips in anger the result will be a Chernobyl and possible fire. David Sharpe -The way I have always used Variac's is to get to the proper voltage. The current will start high & go down as the charge cycle ends. It has always provided a full charge although not as quick as other charger that are more complicated. Very dependable and once you set it at the right voltage it usually stays there with little adjustment over time. LR.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cover" -Yes, you can use 10 individual chargers with isolated outputs. It's been done, and it work reasonably well IF the individual chargers are sufficiently reliable. --======================================= I found 2 wheel chair batteries that looks new but where o volts , I charged them for 2 days with a bad boy charger at 120v in series with a 60 watt light bulb. At first the light didn't come on and both batteries showed 60v across them , the 2nd day the light was on and as I had left it sitting on one of the batteries it had melted the top of one . I did a few cycles and each one gave more ah , I then put
the one in my work truck and its still there working now . I had an idea for cycling a string of batteries. hook 12 up ( or what ever your pack is , and what the dc to dc will handle ) in series 144v and then run a dc to dc converter off the 144 and with its output charge the battery in the string that is the lowest , then when that one is full , find the next , most empty one in the string and charge that one . Keep doing this till your get around to all the batteries ( watching that non go below 10.5 ) . then when most are getting close to 10.5 add another charger that is powered for the wall and keep charging and cycling till they are all full , . ==================================== Howdy, When I developed a charger with Trojan for GE-EV (US Patent no. 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov ) and Jim Drizos who was an engineer at Trojan, I was told that pulsators, desulfators etc. were *junk science* and had no useful effect on the battery. Experiments I did there didn't show any measurable useful benefit. Follow the IEI dv/dt=0 standard charge regime and that's the best life you can get out of your batteries. Just another way to separate you from your wallet. have a nice day, Mark ==================================== 1. Dead batteries require a starting until your ammeter shows 2% of C. In voltage (such as 144v). If not, some check each battery individually; one need to be replaced.
charge of just a few amps. Turn up the variac one hour, the pack should show its nominal battery is damaged; use your voltmeter to is probably shorted or reversed, and it will
2. Turn up the variac. You want to provide as much current as possible for a fast, thorough charge, but you don't want to burn anything up. Check the extension cords, plugs, and charger. If anything is too hot to touch comfortably, the variac is too high. Turn it down immediately. Use your ammeter to determine the maximum current you can safely provide during charging. Remember that using a variac from AC power produces transient DC "ripple" currents; at 12A, the ripple current can be as high as 20A. In fact, 12A has been cited as a reasonable charging current. 3. Watch the ammeter. As your batteries charge, their voltage rises. As the voltage rises, the current falls. To provide constant current, you'll have to turn up the variac. I recommend you check every commercial (15 minutes or so). Failing to turn up the variac will not damage the batteries; it will just take longer to charge. 4. Look for full batteries. When any battery reaches 2.5v per cell (15v on a 12v battery), it's full. You don't want to overcharge it, since that will shorten its life and release hydrogen into your battery compartment. You'll have to start turning down the variac to ensure that this battery doesn't get higher than 15v. When your pack isn't balanced, it's almost always the same battery that reaches the limit first; when your pack is balanced, they all reach the limit at the same time. (In that case, you can just use the whole pack's voltage instead of checking each individual battery; for 12 batteries at 15v limits, that's 180v.) 5. Fill the whole pack. You'll have to keep turning down the variac as more batteries fill up. As the batteries reach their full charge, less current will be required. When you reach 2% of C, they're full. You're done; turn the charger off. 6. Equalize the batteries. Let the batteries sit overnight. In the morning, measure each battery's voltage. They should all match (to within 0.05v for 12v batteries, 0.03v for 6v batteries). To charge the weak ones, you can either try
charging them separately or running a 2% C charge to the whole pack for a few extra hours. Eventually they'll equalize. A properly connected E-meter can tell when the batteries are full. This requires setting the minimum charging voltage, the maximum charging current, and the measurement time. When the charging voltage is above the minimum charging voltage at the same time the current is below the maximum charging current, and this condition persists for the measurement time (usually 1 or 5 minutes), the charge indicator on the E-meter will flash green. If the E-meter is equipped with a lowvoltage alarm, it will go off at this point; you could use that signal to turn off the charger. Unfortunately, these conditions are difficult to meet with a variac, and almost impossible to meet with even a single damaged battery. ================================ 21.3
What is Article 625?
Article 625 refers to Article 625 of NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code (NEC). This article references minimum safe installation practices for Electric Vehicle Charging Systems. Some say that the NEC contradicts itself with this article, since the NEC also states that it does not apply to automotive vehicles. The NEC is not followed verbatim by every municipality. State, City, and local authorities may have local codes that differ slightly from the NEC. Always check with your local municipality to determine the requirements for your particular installation. Please consult a qualified electrician or electrical inspector regarding any electrical installation for your home. this includes, but is not limited to, outlets for charging your EV. ------------------From: Lee Hart Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Electravan progress. ADVERTISEMENT Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > What number of windings and/or device would you use for a 450 amp > SCR controller. Where would you put the inductor? Neg or Pos side? > What size wire if you wind the inductor yourself? It is the big GE > motor 20 hp that came stock with the Electravan & most other JET > products. Here's how I would approach it. Your GE motor already has a big commutator, twice the size of the Advanced DC motors. So, I wouldn't worry about ripple current affecting the motor. You shouldn't need to add inductance with this motor. Adding inductance would help, but isn't worth the effort.
The bigger problem is ripple current affecting the batteries. This can be more cheaply and easily dealt with by adding capacitors in parallel with the batteries, on the input side of the controller. Do you have a shunt to measure battery current? If not, add one. Drive at some constant cruising speed, and measure both the DC and AC voltage across the shunt with a digital multimeter. As a goal, you would like to see an AC current less than 10% of the DC current. For example, if you are drawing 200 amps DC (20 millivolts DC across a 500a/50mv shunt), you want to see less than 20 amps AC (2 millivolts AC). Now, add some large electrolytic capacitors; enough to get the ripple current under 10%. It is likely to take 10,000uf to 100,000uf, spread between 10 or so parts. It is not the capacitance that matters; it is the capacitor's ESR (equivalent series resistance). Since resistance is what counts, you want the wiring to these capacitors as short and thick as possible, and connected as close as possible to the input of the controller. What this capacitance does is to carry the motor AC ripple current, so the batteries basically deliver DC current. --------From: "damon henry" Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:50 am Subject: RE: The Lester and Nicads ADVERTISEMENT It could probably be used to handle most of the bulk charging just fine, but I don't think you would have much luck coaxing it into finishing the charge very well. With flooded NiCads, you generally want to put back in about 10% more than you took out, but after the cells reach about 1.6V each you generally cut the current back to about C/10 rate. So if you had a string of 100 34ahr Nicads and you had just taken 30 ahrs out of them, you can charge like nuts until the pack reach about 160 volts then charge at 3.4 amps until you have put around 33 ahrs back in. >From: "Lawrence Rhodes" >Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" >Subject: The Lester and Nicads >Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:22:45 -0700 > >Could an old Lester (the one that came with the Electravan) work with the >1000 pounds and three strings of Nicads(at 120v) in the Electravan . This >would allow me to do other things with my limited funds. Lawrence >Rhodes..... -----------------------------------------------------Sender: From: Subject: Comments: To: In-Reply-To:
Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List Randy Duncan Re: ?battery charging EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; Thanks, Norman. Currently(ha) I've gotten all 17 up to +/- 6v and will complete the charge with the onboard system. Will keep you all posted on proceedeings. Keep your fingers(but not your wires) crossed. Randy Norman Smith wrote:Hello all /randy The first time you charge the batteries I would suggest overcharging the pack to level them all up with a low current charge. At AC propulsion we managed to get about 32,000 miles out of a pack. We did it by keeping the batteries between 45% and 85% state of charge. We monitored the batteries and when one of them was getting low we would charge the pack fully and float the charge to level the entire pack. This charge was typically only once a month. The easy way to charge the entire groupe of not equalized batteries is to connect them in parrallel / series configuration and charge them with the 12 volt charger. Let them trickel charge for a couple of days. Norman Smith ------------------------------------------------====================================== Lawrence Rhodes wrote: >> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended >> 1000uf and check again. What is the problem of putting in a few >> thousand? No direct harm; the more, the merrier. However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not the batteries. However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current that the capacitor can stand without overheating. So, your goal is a capacitor with: a. At least 1000uF of capacitance. b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR. For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms. A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms. Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total. So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less. c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current. 400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between 0 and 400, which is �200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about 100 amps RMS. What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements. This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the ripple and ESR ratings. Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low. A big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1 ohm ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would be a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings). That's why I suggested that you experiment. -- Ring the bells that you can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem" -- Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net ===================================== A fuse is necessary between the variac and the bridge in case the bridge shorts out ONE diode. If the variac is set to a very low setting (like 12 volts) it can put massive current into the bridge and burn out the lower several windings in the variac before anyone notices. If a second diode in the bridge shorts, it can open the output breaker indicating a problem. It all depends on which pair of diodes short out. In this case, the fuse should be about 150% of the variac continuous current rating. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [email protected]
--------------------------Date: Reply-To: Sender: From: Subject: Comments: To: In-Reply-To: Content-Type:
Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:40:52 -0800 EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List Ken Huck Charger Schematic EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Welcome Norman, I have a schematic for the charger on my 1980 Jet 600 and I have used it sucessfully to wire a cord. Get me your email address and I will PDF it to you with 24 hours. If we had an online archive I could put a copy there as well. Regards, Ken Huck Susten(sm) Building Systems "We build in comfort and economy(tm)" [email protected]
mobile (828) 273-5334 land (408) 223-1303 >I have just aquired 2 1980 Electravan 600's. >I am in the process of reserecting them.
Only one of them has the origional >battery charger in it. They both drive with a temperary battery pack made up >of Optima batteries. This leaves me 6 volts short of the normal operating >voltage and a little short on range but it works. I have no power cord for >the origional charger and don't know what the connections should be for 110v >or 220v operation. I am currently using a variac based pulse charger for >battery charging. Is there any documentation available on the charger? If >not I will reverse engineer a schematic for it this month. > >Thanks >Norman Smith -----------------------------------------Sender: From: Subject: Comments: To:
North Texas Electric Auto Association Russell Levine Charger woes ElectraVan List , EV List
Hi Listees - 2 days ago, I plugged in to my pack (before plugging into AC) backwards, got a "pop", then realized something was wrong, and turned the plug around. When I did plug into the wall, the ammeter read zero. I've checked everything in the ElectraVan, and that's when I discovered the plug from the pack is live...all the time! So I must have fried something in the chargers. I have a pair of series-wired 77.5V Todds (unlabelled, so I'm going by looks), and now one puts out ~58volts, and the other ~38volts. I opened the sliding top of one (38V now) unit by breaking the aluminum "rivets", but there is no obvious meltdown, everything "looks" intact, and I have little knowledge of how to test these things (I'm lucky I could even figure out how to measure their output voltages!). The insides seem to have, among other things, four sets of the same circuit, but what do they do? To quote The Talking Heads, "My god, what have I done?". Any ideas will be showered with karma. Russell L --Based opun my experience of doing the same thing to other items, that pop was not a good thing. MOSFET/transistors have a tendency to go ballistic and EXPLODE when connected to reverse polarity. Unfortunately they are usually behind a big heat sink so you can't always see em. It could also just have cracked to. Some times you can replace the MOSFET you self, but it would be best to send it in. If you can't get it fixed, KTA sells EV chargers. When you get it fixed, I would recommend ether a plug you can't get backwards or a relay and diode setup that won't connect the charger unless the polarity is right. -I wasn't sure if Todd would repair very cheaply, so I've ordered an unregulated charger from Fair Radio. Their website has a page from their catalog with a surplus 0-135V 115/230V charger for $49.50. We'll see how it does with my 102V pack. Russell ----------------------------------------My Lester I think is supposed to charge a 96v pack, and about
as high as I can get it to go is around 130, and by then there isn't much current flowing, so if I leave them on for a real long charge they might get equalized, but it's faster if I remove one of the 6v's and charge it separately with a Sears charger. --------------------------------------------------------------From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
"Michael A. Radtke" Re: Range EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Rob, I have the original Lester charger. The result is that I balance my pack on every charge and add water more often. Thanks, Mike --------------In their original configuration, with the EV-1 controller and 20 6V golf cart batteries, you could get about 20 miles range. With 10 12V marine batteries, you'd be lucky to get 10 miles. When the EV-1 controller is replaced with a more modern PWM mosfet controller, with the 6V pack and everything in good running order, the range jumps up to 40 miles. With your 12V marine batteries, assuming they're 100 ahr capacity, in the same scenario you might get 20 miles or so. Also, if you're using the original Lester charger that came with the truck, it's set up for a pack of 6V 220 ahr flooded batteries and will basically do an equalizer on them every time, finish charge current around 8 amps. It would literally boil the snot out of the smaller 12V marine batteries if you let it do a full charge cycle, and if they're sealed batteries ( a fair assumption since you said they're out of a UPS ) they'd be toast after the first time you charged them with the Lester. ----------------------------
-=-=-=-=-=-================== CONTROLLER -=-=-=-=-=-==================
I was at my favorite surplus supply Excess Solutions when I saw some high voltage capacitors. 150vdc 440uf. I bought ten just based on the size of the screw. Then I read the email and saw 50 might be needed. These are the silver ones
General Electric 92F311AMMA, 440UF - 10+50%, 150vdc 200 surge, 85C Max Ambient. I got 10 of these. Should I put them all on the positive or negative side or split them on each leg? Do I have enough? Or is this over kill. Each is 1 3/8" x 3 1/8" long. Three bucks each. LR>. Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > > > > >
I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches at 1500 hz with inadequate filtering on the battery side. Is it possible that the battery sees high current pulses and behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and consequently has much less capacity.
Yes, it is possible; even probable. You can measure the battery ripple current with a multimeter. Measure across your battery current shunt, or pick two spots along one of the wires from your batteries to the controller. For example, the positive terminal of the battery and the other end of that wire that connects to the controller. The voltage drop in this wire is proportional to current. Connect wires from these points to your multimeter, and go for a drive. While cruising at some constant speed, measure the DC voltage and the AC voltage. Their ratio is the percent ripple current. If the AC voltage is more than about 10% of the DC voltage, then your batteries would benefit from the addition of filter capacitors. These old SCR controllers usually didn't have a large input filter capacitor bank. There were several reasons. First, they expected them to be used with huge forklift batteries, which already have lots of capacitance (a "mere" 1000 amp load for these batteries isn't a high rate :-) They may not have been aware that lack of capacitors would be a problem for lower-capacity higher-resistance batteries. Or they knew, but were concerned about the reliability of electrolytic capacitors. Modern electrolytics are merely bad -- back then they were even worse! Note that a 20-year-old SCR controller still works; if they had used electrolytics, it wouldn't! Or, they knew and just wanted to save money. You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a wire as possible. We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in 1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:19:15 -0800 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: Ken Huck Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello All, I did the voltage check that Mike suggested below. Backround: The battery pack is a collection of 3 types of used 6V deep cycle batteries some of which were very discharged. Each was cycled repeatedly, individually charged and load tested with a 15 Amp constant current load, until it was able to charge up to 6.5 volts or more, and deliver 15 amps for at least 1 hour. The motor is a 96VDC Prestolite MIC 4001, it turns freely. The vehicle may not have driven under power in 20 years (18,000 on the odometer). Brake fluid is low (where is it added). Test Results: 94 volts on battery pack at no load 93 volts on battery pack pack with accelerator in mid range oscillating from 80 to 90 volts on battery pack with accelerator to floor (also relay clicking open and closed sound at about 10 Hertz) O volts between terminal A1 and A2 with accelerator in mid range about 0.6 volts between terminal A1 and A2 with accelerator to floor (also relay clicking open and closed sound at about 10 Hertz) O volts between terminal S1 and S2 with accelerator in mid range 0.7 volts between terminal S1 and S2 with accelerator to floor (again with relay clicking open and closed sound at about 10 Hertz) The trouble shooting guide that I have seem to be pointing to rectifiers. A problem that I have is I do not know if what I have is normal or abnormal SCR hum. >Now to the EV-1. > >I think that you are asking how to determine whether the problem is the >controller, the wiring, or the motor. Rather than trying to run the >motor without the controller, I would try to measure the voltage at the >motor with the controller humming. At the same time, I would note the >current reported by the dash ammeter. Two of the motor terminals should >be tied together with a short copper bar. Be sure that the bar and the >other motor wires are clean and tight and measure both across the >armature alone ( near the tire) and the field alone. > >Depending on the results of these measurements, you may wish to repeat >the test at the other end of the motor wires. > >Please be careful since there is a lot of voltage with a great deal of >current available. > >Let us know what you find. > >Thanks, >Mike > >-------- Original Message -------- > Subject: > [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics > Date: > Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:50:31 -0000 > >Hello, >My ElectraVan is nearly road worthy. > >When I power it up and depress the accelerator the contactor >clicks and I get >a low 7 to 15 khz hum out of the controller but the motor >does not turn. > >I would like to deliver power directly to the motor terminal >to see if the motor >will turn. >I need to know the proper confiuration/connection for the >wires to do that test. >Of couse it is a series wound motor. > >Thanks to anyone who can share some insight or empathy. > >best regards, >[email protected]
://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=510 From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=usascii
Ken, How much current did you see during your test? Perhaps the pack is sagging enough to let the relay drop out before the motor turns. The volts may be OK if the current is low. The sound of the controller is very subjective. The sound under load comes from the motor, not the controller. The sound of the controller itself is hard to hear. The motor acts similar to a speaker when pulsed by the controller. Thanks, Mike--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgibin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=638 From: Ken Huck Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello Mike, Thanks for the info about the sound. I am having trouble getting a trustable current reading. However I expect that 80 volts is sufficient to drive the motor with the transmission in neutral. That comes back to me wanting to test the motor by delivering battery voltage directly to the motor. If such a test was sucessful it would narrow troubleshooting to the wiring and controller. I am keen to find good controller schematics and test procedures also a configuration guide for the motor. regards, [email protected]
://listserv.tcu.edu/cgibin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=783 From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=usascii Ken, The fact that the relay cycles implies that the controller is opening the relay, or the battery voltage is too low to hold the relay in. A series connected motor has a fairly complex relationship between applied voltage, current draw, torque and speed. A simplification might be to consider that for a specific current, the motor provides a specific torque. That implies if no load is provided for the motor and a current is supplied, the motor will accelerate until it flies apart. If the current is two low, the motor won't turn at all because of internal friction. If the current is enough to get the motor started, but not too much more, the motor will reach some speed equilibrium since its internal friction increases with speed. From rest, the current is determined by Ohm's law where the resistance is the motor winding resistance and the battery's internal resistance. One of your 6 volt batteries will probably spin the motor without excessive speed. Two in series should do if one can't get the motor started. I wouldn't use more than 12 volts though. In order to try this, you must remove the controller wires from the motor. Leave the jumper from the armature to the field in place. Apply the 6-12 volts to the remaining two motor terminals. Polarity isn't critical. Be prepared for a big spark, and be prepared to disconnect the battery if the motor accelerates too much. There is no shock hazard, but the currents that the batteries can supply can cause burns, melted tools, and could weld the wire to the motor terminal. Please be careful. I don't have a controller schematic. Mike-http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=911 From: Ken Huck Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello Mike, Thank you so much for the tutorial. Using the procedure you outlined I was able to get the motor started. Shortly after I discoverd a problem with the drive train. With the drive wheels suspended in the air. The drivers side rear
wheel won't turn unless the passenger side wheel is stopped (must be held very firmly). When the driverside wheel does turn it lifts up about 1/2 of an inch once each rotation the whole transmission wobbles when this happens. One of the CV boots looks slightly stretched. I will need to remove the wheel and check it out. Any ideas on suppliers of axles for these vehicles? Do you know what kind of oil to use in the tramsmission? I am thinking of making an approx. 3.5KW load using 3 120 V AC electric heaters that I have. I would do this to look for weak batteries in the pack. Considering that the motor is known good do you think that I still need to consider the pack as a potential source of trouble. The documents I have suggest looking at shorted or open diodes when you get normal controller sound and little or no power. Thanks again Mike. best regards, [email protected]
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:35:10 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ken, Drive train: My guess is that you have a stuck or damaged CV joint. I have been surprised on my Vanagon how much these joints can be abused and still be repairable. I have one that all the metal is discolored from the heat of running it without lubricant. That happened to it 70,000 miles ago. So, take it apart and see what's up. If it can be cleaned up and none of the surfaces are galled, it just needs CV grease to make it like new. In any case, you will need a new boot. I haven't had to replace my CV joint boots yet, but I'll bet that something can be found that fits. If you go through the process of matching something up, please let me know what you end up with. The only Subaru only parts that I've needed so far were some tail light lenses. I helped a fellow in Japan get some Vanagon parts and in return, he found what I needed. The Subaru 360 Driver's club has a couple of ElectraVan owners. The club is always on the lookout for parts suppliers. There is a Subaru dealer in Flagstaff AZ that has offered to get factory parts if they are available for club members. You may wish to join the club. The club address is: http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=subaru360 The dealer address is: Eric Pifer (Parts Manager) Planet Nissan Subaru 2020 East Route 66 Flagstaff, AZ. 86004 E-mail:[email protected]
Phone: 520-774-9163 I don't remember the transmission lube spec, but I can look it up and have it for you on Monday. Motor / Controller / Battery pack: The good news is that you have eliminated the motor as a cause. The question now is whether the contactor is dropping out directly due to low voltage, because the controller senses a fault such as low voltage, or because the controller itself is faulty. One factor in making the diagnosis is the type of test equipment that you have available. The next test that I would recommend is measuring the voltage on the contactor's coil to see if it is dropping out because it is low, or it is actually being turned off. Since the relay is chattering, an oscilloscope should be used to see the coil voltage. An analog meter might work if the meter is fast enough and the chatter slow enough. A digital meter would be useless. You mentioned that you were having trouble getting a good current reading. What do you mean by that? Is the original meter shunt and
the dash meter no longer in place? You are correct about the diode checking advice, but it may not be that simple. The EV-1 is SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier) based and works a little differently than more modern controllers. If the controller is humming, most likely there is drive (a control signal) to the power devices. Without a schematic I am guessing here, but there are probably 3 power devices. A characteristic of an SCR is that it latches in the on state until the current through it is interrupted. So, at the beginning of a power pulse, the main SCR is turned on. When the logic of the controller decides to end the power pulse, it turns on a second smaller SCR to discharge a capacitor into the motor circuit. This momentary pulse stops (commutates) the main SCR from conducting. And, since the capacitor discharge is only momentary, the second SCR turns off as well. The inductance of the motor tries to maintain the current which causes the voltage across the motor to reverse. This reverse voltage is conducted by the third power device, a large diode. These three expensive components closely interact and it is likely that if any go bad, they may all go bad. Plus, they may be damaged by an incorrect logic signal, so replacing them may only result in a second failure. I gather that most folks replace the EV-1 controller rather than attempt to repair it. There is logic circuitry in the EV-1 that tries to preserve the expensive devices from bad things and stop a runaway condition should one fail. In other words for any real or imagined fault, the logic opens the main contactor to stop or limit the damage. In my experience though, the logic shuts down until the throttle is closed and then reopened. This is not consistent with the contactor chattering that you observed, and that leads me back to the conclusion that the pack voltage is falling enough to cause the drop out. I don't believe that I would try anything with the heater load yet. Another test that may give you some more information is to measure individual battery voltage under the contactor chattering condition. You will have to use an analog meter, and scope still would be best. You may just find a battery reversing. I sure talk a lot. Mike--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0403&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=1184 ==================================== Newbee: GE EV-1 Controller help needed.... * * * * * *
To: [email protected]
, [email protected]
Subject: Newbee: GE EV-1 Controller help needed.... From: ed Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:27:26 -0600 Reply-To: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
I just purchased a 1980 Bradley electric kit car. After working on the mechanical part of the car and purchasing (16) T145 batteries I have just found out that the GE EV1 controller is dead. I did get a copy of the schematics on the EV1 from Bob (thanks). These were very helpful but since this is related to forklifts does leave out some info. After playing with this EV1 controller for a while I concluded that the osc card was probably bad. I did find a new EV1 controller (thanks Gerald) but when installing this controller had the same problem. This got me thinking that something other than the EV1 is the problem. Not having any diagrams on the car wiring I am now lost. My EV1 is currently hooked up as:
L3,L4,L5,L7 goes to 50 volts ok)
L10 goes to pin #3 of the driver module (driver module checks out R3 goes to pin #1 of the driver module
R4,R5 goes to the accelerator (I get 4k ohms normal, stepping on the gas I get 200 ohms) P goes to the main contactor T2,A2 goes to the motor N is ground for the 50 volts A1 is not used My first problem is that the main contactor does not pick. If I remove the (-) wire from the main contactor and ground this then when I step on the gas I do get the main contactor closing (pos side of contactor is 50 volts). So now I have power thru the contactor to the (P) terminal on the EV1. I also have power (50v) to the osc card on the EV1 controller. So even with the contactor picked (brute force method) supplying pwr to the (P) terminal, having 50 volts in the input to the osc card, have the accelerator depressed, I do not hear the SCR humming and the SCR does not switch on. I have checked all the components of the EV1 and they look ok (except for the osc card). Question: How does the pot box interact with the EV1. It seems that the wiring for the pot box goes into the car frame and it is hard to follow this. Before I bite the bullet on getting a new controller I want to understand what is going on (or better stated what is not going on). If anybody has any ideas of whats going on these would be extremely appreciated...... And Yes, I know that I should get a new MOSFET controller but before I do that I want to understand this controller and at least drive around the block. I want to thank all the people that have helped me get this far (Roger, Brendan, and others) Thanks Ed-http://18.104.22.168/search?q=cache:9E0kZacKPWwJ:solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev /200001/msg01001.html+%22ev-1+controller%22&hl=en&start=1 * From: "Roger Stockton" * Date: 24 Jan 2000 13:50:00 -0700 * Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]
Hi Ed, A couple of things: - 16 T145s sounds like 96V; why is the controller logic being fed 50V, and why is the main contactor connecting 50V to P? If your EV-1 is spec'ed for 84-144V (as mine is), 50V may be low enough that it won't start up properly. - even when it locks out due to a detected fault condition, my EV-1 still makes an audible sound in the low kHz range (not very loud, mind you... you'd need to stick your head near the controller while power is applied to hear it); does yours? - L10 is an INPUT to the controller (normally used to signal the controller that you've selected REVERSE; L9 is the FORWARD input). Regardless of which input you use (L9 or L10), it must be connected to the positive side of the contactor coil, and the ground side of the contactor coil must be connected to P3 (or P4) of the driver module. Once wired correctly, L10 should be at pack voltage when you expect the contactor to be closed. P2 of the driver module should be connected to pack negative (controller N terminal). - the potbox is a simple affair: a pot and 2 switches. The accelerator start switch operates as the throttle is moved from the idle position, the 1A switch operates as the throttle approaches wide open. The 1A switch is for the 1A bypass contactor which isn't typically fitted to a road car, so this switch will be unused (if even fitted). On my potbox, it is the switch nearest the pot itself (side opposite the lever to which the cable attaches). The start switch is the one nearest the lever, and is used on my setup to apply power to one of the controller inputs (see later). The wires from the throttle pot should run to R4 and R5 and nowhere else (i.e. if disconnected at R4 & R5 you should measure the sort of resistances you quoted between the wires and an infinite resistance between either wire and the chassis). Each of the switches has 4 screw terminals, one pair raised above the others. One pair (e.g. the raised one) will provide a normally-open set of contacts and the other pair will provide normally-closed ones. Unfortunately, I don't have the schematic for my car with me, so I'll have to check it tonight and update you tomorrow because my setup also applies pack voltage to L3, L4, L5, and L7 (through a relay when the ignition switch is turned on), but uses the accelerator start switch (switch in the potbox assembly which operates as the pedal is moved off the idle position) to then connect power to (I believe) L9 (which my setup uses instead of L10). This is important as the controller will lock out if there isn't a slight delay between applying power to L3, etc. and the accelerator switch operating (e.g. turning on the key with the throttle matted). Anyway, I'll check the schematic and confirm this with you tomorrow. The way mine is configured, the main contactor engages as soon as the ignition is switched on, but the controller will lock itself out if a fault condition is detected and must be power-cycled after the fault is cleared before it will re-enable. Hope this helps,
Roger.--http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01019.html * In-reply-to: * Reply-To: [email protected]
* Sender: [email protected]
Bradley had a scheme where they ran at 48 volts at low speed and 96 volts at high speed. All automatic and all while using the GE SCR controller. They claimed this gave greater range because the pulse duty cycle was longer.-http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01061.html * * * *
From: "Roger Stockton" Date: 25 Jan 2000 13:05:00 -0700 Reply-To: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
Hi Ed, Interesting about the Bradley's 48/96V setup; I was unaware of this. I suspect that it is more likely that you have a wiring problem than 2 bad EV-1s; once the wiring is sorted, you might want to reinstall the original controller or at least avoid "turbo" mode with the 48V controller installed... not sure how it would take to 96V. I'm not sure that the silence of your EV-1 is a bad sign; just wanted to understand how similarly to mine it is behaving. The power supply in mine might be noisier that it ought to be... Your clarification of the PMT driver wiring sounds more but I'm still a bit confused (unclear on what P3 of the is connected to), so let me try an ASCII drawing of how set up looks (use a fixed font such as Courier for best
or less correct, driver module my (working) clarity):
Switch Accelerator / Controlled by key / START switch Pack +ve ----/ ---+-----------+------------/ ---+ (or 50V) | | Main | +--+--+--+ O Contactor | | | | | | Coil | L3 L4 L5 L7 | L9 ========== PMT Driver = P4 = = P2=---+ = P1 = | ========== | | | R3 N NOTE: L10 can be used instead of L9 and P3 instead of P4. Your setup sounds like it puts the contactor and PMT driver on the same side of the START switch as L9 (L10), which results in the main contactor operating when you step on the throttle. This should be fine (perhaps even more "correct" than the way mine is wired). Where does your main contactor's contacts appear in the circuit? (I'm assuming it connects the battery pack +ve to the controller's P
terminal.) I don't think it is advisable to try tying R3 to ground as this might damage the controller card. If the driver module has tested OK as per the manual, then the reason it is not engaging the contactor is because the controller has detected some fault condition and is deliberately inhibiting it (this is, after all, the reason for the driver and it's connection to R3; so that the controller can drop out the contactor in the event of a failed SCR, commutation failure, etc.). The other possibility is that the controller card is fried... One of the faults that will lock out the controller (but [in my case] doesn't prevent the contactor from picking up) is if the commutating capacitor(s) fail to charge up to the expected level in the expected amount of time on power up. BEFORE proceeding with any further troubleshooting, make sure the car is in neutral with the handbrake set! If there is a failure in your controller, you don't wan't to inadvertantly defeat its lock out and launch the car! It might be worth measuring the voltage across them while power is applied to the controller to verify that they charge up with the key on, even though the main contactor is not yet closed. The voltage that the controller wants to see on the caps is a fraction of the pack voltage applied to the controller: one side of the cap is tied to pack +ve [the P terminal], and the voltage between the other side of the cap and pack -ve [N terminal] drops as it charges up; while testing my pack was at ~90V and the controller would lock out until the low side of the cap dropped within about 25V of the N terminal. Since you're running 50V, the voltages your EV-1 wants to see may be correspondingly lower. -If the cap charges slowly, or not at all, recheck with the main contactor closed. If it still doesn't charge, check for continuity through the motor (e.g. disconnect the cable at T2 and verify continuity from this cable end through to the controller's A2 terminal. Also confirm that there is continuity from A2 to N and N to pack -ve). Without continuity through the motor loop, the commutating caps can't charge and the controller will lock out. -Once the controller locks out, you must power cycle it to reset. Check that the voltage on the L3 connection drops below 4V when you turn off the key; if not, the EV-1 will/may not reset. -Likewise, check that the voltage at L9/L10 is below 4V until you step on the throttle. If the voltage at this pin is not below 4V for at least 0.5 second after turning on the key, then the controller will lock out. -Check the voltage at R1 (Card power supply) with the key on. It should be 8-8.5V. If it is above 10V or near 0V replace the control card and check the PMT driver for a short (this is why I think shorting R3 to ground may be a bad idea; it seems a shorted PMT driver could cause the control card power supply to fry). -The contactor (Pulse Monitor Trip, or PMT) driver allows the controller to drop out or lock out the contactor if it detects an SCR failure, commutation failure, or welded 1A bypass contactor failure. One of the fault conditions is that battery voltage is not detected across the main
SCR (1-REC) when it is off (i.e. failed shorted). If battery voltage only appears at P when the main contactor is closed, then perhaps the controller fails to see battery volts across 1-REC at power up and locks out having decided it has failed shorted (we know that it hasn't failed shorted since you didn't launch the car when you forced the contactor to close). Test this by re-connecting your main contactor so that it picks up when the key switch closes, but leave L9/L10 controlled by the accelerator start switch. If the contactor still won't pick up when connected as in my diagram: -Turn off power and disconnect the cable from T2. Then, with key on and contactor closed, check volts from T2 to N. It should be about 50% of the voltage from P to N. If it is more than 70%, then the control card will lock out 1-REC (no PWM). If it is near 100%, check for a shorted 1-REC (unlikely since car didn't launch). If it is near 0V, check for a shorted 3-REC (freewheel diode). If the contactor picks up when connected as in my diagram, but the controller still doesn't PWM when the throttle is pressed: -Re-check voltage on the commutating capacitors. If they are charged, try turning the controller off then immediately back on (it will then be guaranteed to see "good" cap voltage within the allowed time frame and this cause of lock out can be eliminated). Then after 1-2s, prod the throttle and listen for the SCR growl (you may have to give more throttle than you might expect, so don't be shy). -With key on and contactor closed, check volts from T2 to N. It should be 0V. If not, check volts at S1, S2, A1 and A2 to locate the open circuit in your motor or its wiring. There are some other checks you can perform to check for proper voltages at the throttle pot terminals, etc. which are described in the manual. Most of the checks I've described are from the manual but modified for cars like ours which use the PMT driver to control a main contactor to P rather than to control a directional (forward or reverse) contactor between T2 and the motor. You can't follow the manual's troubleshooting guide directly since an open contactor for you means no power to P, while the guide assumes it means an open between T2 and the motor. Let us know what you find! Cheers, Roger.--http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200001/msg01082.html * * * * * *
From: "Mark Hanson" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:42:26 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Reply-To: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
Won't get any help from GE, their customer service department is gone. Best to replace with a more reliable Curtis 1231C or equiv. -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 3:39 PM To: [email protected]
Subject: GE EV-1 Controller Just purchased a EV with a GE EV-1 scr controller....Does anyone have any schematics or wiring diagrams that can help me trouble shoot this controller. Thanks Ed-http://22.214.171.124/search?q=cache:tNSeTXWJRKsJ:solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev /200001/msg00201.html+%22ev-1+controller%22&hl=en&start=2 --- Begin Message --Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Yes, but how does the ripple current formulae correlate to > frequency? The ripple current in the motor loop is dependant on the motor loop inductance (essentially the motor inductance) and the switching frequency. The lower the frequency, the greater the off time during which the motor loop current decays further, resulting in greater ripple. The lower the motor loop current is when the switch turns back on, the lower the motor voltage and therefore the greater the initial current drawn from the battery will be (i.e. greater battery ripple current). (e.g. the GE EV-1 SCR controller switches at 50-300Hz, which is slow enough that the motor loop current (with a 7.2" Prestolite) dropped to 0 between pulses; the battery ripple current was the full motor current (could be as high as 500A with this controller), despite the slow switching speed of the SCRs). > But since I'm switching at 1.5kHz instead of 15kHz > shouldn't my switching spikes be less? As I understand it, the switching speed is not necessarily tied to the PWM frequency. That is, you are turning the switch on and off at 1.5kHz, but the 'switching speed' that affects the magnitude of the switching spikes depends on how fast you get the switch to go from off to on (or vice versa). That is, at 1.5kHz, you turn the switch on every 0.67ms but the time it takes to switch on might be 10us or 100us, etc. depending on how hard you drive it, and it is this turn-on speed that affects the switching spike magnitude. > I mean if I switched once a > second, that would obviously be very low ripple current > averaged for the caps and they wouldn't even get warm. Nope. See the above real-world example of the 50-300Hz switching frequency for the GE EV-1 controller; the slower you switch the greater the ripple current gets, at least until you are switching slowly enough that the motor loop current can hit 0A between on pulses (switching mre slowly than this doesn't worsen the ripple further). At 1Hz your caps would be seeing full motor current as ripple (100s of amps) and they
would definitely get warm. 1Hz probably isn't slow enough for them to cool singificantly between pulses, so they will heat up. Hope this helps, Roger. --- End Message -----http://126.96.36.199/search?q=cache:Y9Izy69ZI5YJ:www.mailarchive.com/ev%40listproc.sjsu.edu/msg04857.html+%22ev1+controller%22&hl=en&start=9
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: Robb Zuk Subject: Re: High voltage GE EV1 controller Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I ran my EV-1 controller at 120 Volts (16 x 8 Volt Batteries) for a year and it was not problem. Now I'm back to the old 96 Volt pack because the 6 Volt batteries have a longer life span. Re chargers... I used my old lester for charging at 96 and 102 Volts and it was fine both ways. 108 Volts... Give it a try! Won't hurt anything but might not charge very quickly or might not give you a full charge. I gave up on my old Lester years ago -- Too heavy. Now I just use a bad-boy charger with a timer. Robb On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:00:51 -0600, Norman Smith wrote: > >I am using 12 volt batteries in my Electrovan 600 and have been running it 6 >volts below its rating has anyone had any experiance running it at a higher >voltage. Also does anyone know if the charger can be adapted to charge a 108 >volt pack?? I have a power supply that can charge just about any voltage up >to 300 volts but would like to use the origional charger and keep the power >supply for bench use.--http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=330
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: GE EV1 Controller Help Comments: To: "[email protected]
" Hello, I have a 1979 ElectraVan with a GE EV1 controller. I have a copy of the service manual for the controller (thanks Bob Wing). After about 10 minutes of driving, occasionally the SCR's will fire when the throttle switch opens. Since they are faster than the contactor this causes a jerk of power applied before the contactor opens. It is more than an annoyance since the contactor then opens at high current which it normally does not do. Because the problem is heat sensitive, I suspect that I have a failing component problem rather than the need to add some filtering or shielding. So, is this a well known problem with a well know solution? Hints and tips are appreciated. Thanks, Mike-http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0009&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=61 Date:
Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:34:17 -0500
Reply-To: Sender: From: Subject:
EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List Robert MacConnell Van no run
Greetings fellows, My inquiry is to find out if anyone is familiar with troubleshooting the Curtis PMC 1221R-1105 regenerative braking controller. The previous owner installed this (delete expletive)on my van. I thought regenerative braking sounded like a great idea, but sadly, it has proven to be the source of constant problems and breakdowns. Burned contact points, failed microswitches,loose wire connections, etc. I decided to remove all the regen components and wire it up as a normal (non regen) controller. Now, it dosn't run at all. It has 10 pin Molex connector for the regen wiring and it needs to "see" certain inputs before it will operate. I thought I had done a complete job, but no-go. The Curtis engineering dept. sent me some general information, but claimed ignorance on specific points. Appearantly this is an old design and no longer made. The specific information I am looking for is, what inputs does this thing need before it will turn on? I am grateful for any and all help. Thanks! Robert MacConnell --http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=56 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: Robb Zuk Subject: Re: Van no run Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List InReply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Robert, Higher voltage = more horsepower (or same power with less current if you turn down your controller). I wouldn't go higher than 120 Volts in the Electravan for fear of damaging the clutch and possibly transmission. My clutch will chatter even at 96 Volts if I shift to a higher gear too soon. Mind you, if you keep your controller turned down or avoided matting the accelerator pedal except for higher RPM, you could easily run the system at 144 Volts -- Then there are charger issues to consider. I've heard of folks running their 96 Volt GE motor at 192 Volts but that sounded hairy. I wouldn't worry too much about buying a used controller -- Yes, the electronics can be stressed and still work but they tend to be either fine or dead. And if you can get a used one for half the list price then I think you're doing well. If it's not a current model then perhaps it's a different story. Speaking of used controllers, if you decide to sell your regen unit, let me know. I have the exact same one in a box and have been planning to install it for three years... And having a spare appeals to me if the price is right. I know the potential problems but I want to try it anyway. I will set up the regen at a very low level so hope to avoid most of the arcing issues. Robb-http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=524 From: Jim Jacobson and Jane Garvin Subject: Re: van not running- help? Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sounds like a blown relay. Check the relay in the box to the left of the controller. Mine blew last year. Easy to diagnose and repair it that is indeed the problem. Jim On Thursday, June 17, 2004, at 12:27 PM, Randy Duncan wrote: > Got 17 t-105's charged & installed. System reads 99v on voltmeter. > Plug in charger(lester)- nothing. Turn the key, step on the > accelerator- nothing. No needles moving, no buzz, hum, chirp, etc. Any > ideas? Thanks, Randy --
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=ev600-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=807 --------------------If you need more than 20 miles range, instead of a new battery pack, your first priority should be saving up for a new controller to replace the EV-1. A used 400 amp Curtis 1221B will give adequate performance with the GE motor and a 120V pack, and will probably be quite a bit cheaper than a new controller. Failing that, a Curtis 1231C or Zapi H2 (minus regen) would be my choice for a reliable controller with good performance where cost is the main factor. My suggestion would be to first install a sacrificial used test pack to test the truck and ensure everything works. Fix what's broke and/or modify it to suit your needs. Then tackle any minor upgrades you might need or want, such as a DC/DC converter for reliable 12V power or a vacuum pump for power brakes. Third, replace the controller with something more modern if needed. THEN, after taking care of all the details and learning the proper care and feeding of batteries with your sacrificial pack, you're ready to drop in a new set of batteries and enjoy driving your truck. The more work you put in at the front end means less work and more driving time down the road. ---------------------------------Don't know if someone already answered this thread, but my VoltsRabbit was initially 120V pack with 1221B. Unfortunately, I had a 9" ADC motor. Vehicle weight was 2937 lbs. My observations: -Balky starts. Have been informed that this was the motor, not the controller. -Need to use 1st gear; slow acceleration. Such a nuisance that I wound up switching to the 1231C. Best of success to you. --- [email protected]
wrote: > Hi there, > > I have the chance to get hold of a Curtis 1221B-74xx > 72 to 120 volt controller, which I know works. > Will this be OK running from a 120v pack? > Or could the voltage just after charging kill it? > > Apparently it does not switch between 15 kHz > and 1.5 kHz, so it isn't one of the "whiners". > Presumably this means the control at low throttle > settings isn't as fine, will this be a problem for > a Mini-sized EV? ( about 2500 lbs all in ). > > Thanks, > > Richard Bebbington > -----------------------------------------From: Lee Hart Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:21 pm
Re: Electravan progress.
ADVERTISEMENT Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > > I got the 12v system working. Volt meter works. Contactor now works. > Motor won't spin. SCR seems dead. Original wiring seems a little wimpy. > Wondering if a 1221C will be equal to a 450 amp SCR. Awaiting Batteries. > Lawrence Rhodes......... Congratulations -- you're making progress! That always feels good. On the wiring, you can get away with amazingly small wire if you don't care about the voltage drops and heating. Try it as-is; drive a bit, feel for hot wires and connection, beef it up as needed. No, a 1221C won't be nearly as powerful as a 450amp SCR controller. For one thing, the 1221C will cut back as it warms up, and probably not deliver more than 250-300 amps sustained. These old SCR controllers are pretty tough; probably just a loose or corroded or mouse-eaten connection somewhere. But, they can be hard to figure out and get fixed. -------From: "Lawrence Rhodes" Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:19 am Subject: Re: Electravan progress. ADVERTISEMENT These old SCR controllers are pretty tough; probably just a loose or corroded or mouse-eaten connection somewhere. But, they can be hard to figure out and get fixed. I hear they are tough on brushes and range eaters. Is anyone still using a stock Jet with this EV-1 SCR controller? Lawrence Rhodes.... ----------From: [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:21 pm Subject: RE: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla? ADVERTISEMENT With the Zilla, if i remember correctly, you can set the max voltage the motor will see independent of whatever battery pack voltage is. In other words, you can wire the battery pack for 360 volts and programm the Zilla so that the GE motor will never see more than 144V or whatever upper limit you decide that it can handle. IMHO, if you can afford it, get one of the Zilla's that can handle a 360 volt battery pack, wire the pack for 360V, and then program the hairball for a max motor voltage of 144V to start. If later on via experimentation or other means you find out that the GE can handle more voltage, all you have to do is reprogram the hairball. -----Original Message----From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 2:12 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla? I am looking at my pack and I have 360v/180v/120v options. This at stock voltage normal performance & using the whole pack of 300 cells. The GE motor is the original stock motor from Jet Industries. What has been done with out taking away reliability? I am looking at a Zilla. This will be a daily driver and I am hoping for 80 to 100 mile range in the Electravan. Lawrence Rhodes.. -----------From: Otmar Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:55 pm Subject: RE: What would it take to run a GE motor at 180v+. Got Zilla? ADVERTISEMENT That might be great if the Zilla Z1K-EHV actually could handle 360V packs. Unfortunately it's only designed for up to a 348V system. Since it sounds like you are looking for a step up in performance from the original 120V pack, I suggest running at 180V with a Z1K-HV which is good for up to a 300V pack. Even if the Zilla could handle 360V, considering the heavy weight of the vehicle I would suggest the 180V pack would be better. The lower voltage will reduce the stress on the controller capacitors and reduce the ripple current (heating) in the motor. hth, -Otmar----Ran the GE motor in mine for a while with 132V of T-105's and 600 amp current limit. Noticeable improvement in performance and hill-climbing ability even with just an extra 12V and 200 amps. 144V and a possible 1000 amp limit would DEFINITELY wake that motor up! If he is talking Nicads, perhaps two series strings of 180V, provided the weight is acceptable. -----From: Lee Hart Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:36 pm Subject: Re: Electravan progress. ADVERTISEMENT Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > I hear [SCR controllers] are tough on brushes and range eaters. This can be true; but not necessarily. The usual application for these SCR controllers is in fork lifts. These vehicles are transmissionless and extremely heavy. So, they draw enormous motor starting currents. The motors have huge brushgear, and a large amount of iron to avoid saturation. The controllers are built to
deliver 500-1000 amps on a routine basis. If you put one of these SCR controllers in an EV with a smaller, more lightly built motor like an Advanced DC, the high currents are more likely to damage the brushes than a Curtis controller, which rarely delivers its rated current. On range, the SCR controllers are a little less efficient, but not enough that you would notice without careful measurement. They also often have bypass contactors, so they are essentially 100% efficient at full throttle. (Notice that they don't need exceptional amounts of cooling, which would have indicated low efficiency). SCR controllers also switch slower than modern MOSFETs or IGBTs. This makes motor and battery ripple currents higher. This also isn't a problem with the typical huge amphour capacity forklift batteries, and heavy forklift motors that have lots of extra iron. But, if you use such a controller with low-capacity batteries and lighter motors, the ripple current gets even higher; this increases losses from peukert effects, and causes extra heating in the batteries and motor. Indirectly, they reduce range. You can fix this problem by adding extra inductance in series with the motor, to bring the ripple current back down under 10-20%. -"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net --------------------------------------------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: GE EV-1 Controller Information Comments: To: "[email protected]
" Hello, I am re-sending the message below because I didn't get my copy of it, so perhaps no one did. Sorry if it's a repeat. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, My ElectraVan has its original GE EV-1 SCR controller. It seems to have a small problem in that it turns on at 20% of pedal travel and off at 0% of pedal travel. This would be OK except that the SCR's begin pulsing at about 10% of pedal travel. In other words, the van starts with a bit of a jerk, but the traction can be backed off to a lower level or even restarted from zero as long as the pedal is not fully released. So, is this the result of hysteresis in a limit switch that can be easily adjusted, or is it something more difficult to attack? Better yet, does anyone know a source of a schematic for this controller? I am qualified to read it. Thanks, Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------Hello, I have a 1979 ElectraVan with a GE EV1 controller. I have a copy of the service manual for the controller (thanks Bob Wing). After about 10 minutes of driving, occasionally the SCR's will fire when
the throttle switch opens. Since they are faster than the contactor this causes a jerk of power applied before the contactor opens. It is more than an annoyance since the contactor then opens at high current which it normally does not do. Because the problem is heat sensitive, I suspect that I have a failing component problem rather than the need to add some filtering or shielding. So, is this a well known problem with a well know solution? Hints and tips are appreciated. Thanks, Mike
--------------------------------------------Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Wiring help Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List , [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim, When I first received your mail, I didn't know what to do since I didn't know what a BDI was. So, after work, I checked all my documentation, and I still don't know what a BDI is. What does BDI stand for? I have a hunch you are talking about the controller. My van has an EV-1 GE controller, and it has terminals marked R1,R2... and L1,L2,... Perhaps you have something very different than my van. Sorry, Mike -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Wiring help Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:15:18 -0500 From: Jim Jacobson Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List To: [email protected]
I have a wiring question. It's concerns the wire labeled #2 connected to the #15 position on the BDI. Where does it go? This wire in my van is connected to nothing right now. I'm hoping it is a clue to fixing my dead van. 1 x-------(13a)-------- x 5 x-------(9)---------- BDI 6 x----------(8)------- x x x 13 x--- | 14 x--15 X-------------(2)---- ? Thanks, Jim -------------------Jim when I got my bus it had a Curtis controller so I can not just look at mine. However I have the Jet supplied wiring diagram . The diagram shows wire #5 (orange) to the B terminal and wire #6 (brown) to the I terminal. They both go to the percent charge meter. I can send you a copy of the diagram if you need it. Rob.
-------------Rob, Thanks for the info. My other BDI wires are fine, I really am only concerned about the #2 wire from the 15th BDI position. Does your schematic show this wire? I have a wiring diagram of the van, (I don't know if it is a Jet diagram or not), but my van seems to have some differences. I also have a Jet 007 diagram which seems to relate more to my van's wiring. Could you email me off list a photo or scan of your diagram? That would be most helpful. How does your van do with Curtis controller? Which model 1221B or 1221C? If I discover that my controller or controller card are shot I might need to slap a Curtis in there. Thanks, Jim ------------------From: Rob Vasichek Subject: Re: Wiring help Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Jim,the Curtis is CRAP!! The ElectraVan is my 4th EV since the mid 70s. I have had a number of Curtis controllers and NONE lasted longer than several days over warranty! The Curtis in my EZ Go utility cart did not last and this was LIGHT duty. My Van came with a 1231C that caused me to walk 3 times under warranty. I have an Auburn Scientific now that works well. I can send you a photo of the diagram, but down load will be quite long. Send me your E Mail address. Rob. -----------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Wiring help Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim, I'll bet BDI stands for Battery Discharge Indicator. I have no schematic at all for its wiring. However, it is completely independent of the controller wiring and should not affect the operation of the car in any way. It just runs the discharge meter. Once the car is running, you can deal with fixing or replacing it. About 18 months ago, I put an electric reverse in my van. In doing so, I had to understand the controller wiring. I found it very confusing since many of the wires went nowhere. So, since the van was running, I removed each wire that went nowhere. Then I made a schematic of what was left. I compared it with some fork lift diagrams that used the EV-1 controller and convinced myself that I had the diagram correct. I then designed my new circuit with the electric reverse. My next step was to strip all of the old controller wiring out. I did this because even though I didn't have any more dead end wires, I still had wires running from one end of the box, turn around, and run back to a connection just an inch away from where it started. When I replaced the wiring, I tried to use colored wires instead of number tags. I can scan in a copy of the original wiring diagram for you if you'd like, but I don't have wire numbers recorded, just terminal numbers. Mike _ Phoenix, AZ
-------------------From: Jim Jacobson/Jane Garvin Subject: Wiring help Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I replaced my low voltage (ignition) relay and now the van works! Since I've been digging around in the controller area, I've discovered many wiring mysteries to be solved later. I'm just glad it's running again. Thanks for the responses. Jim ------------------Motor / Controller / Battery pack: The good news is that you have eliminated the motor as a cause. The question now is whether the contactor is dropping out directly due to low voltage, because the controller senses a fault such as low voltage, or because the controller itself is faulty. One factor in making the diagnosis is the type of test equipment that you have available. The next test that I would recommend is measuring the voltage on the contactor's coil to see if it is dropping out because it is low, or it is actually being turned off. Since the relay is chattering, an oscilloscope should be used to see the coil voltage. An analog meter might work if the meter is fast enough and the chatter slow enough. A digital meter would be useless. You mentioned that you were having trouble getting a good current reading. What do you mean by that? Is the original meter shunt and the dash meter no longer in place? You are correct about the diode checking advice, but it may not be that simple. The EV-1 is SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier) based and works a little differently than more modern controllers. If the controller is humming, most likely there is drive (a control signal) to the power devices. Without a schematic I am guessing here, but there are probably 3 power devices. A characteristic of an SCR is that it latches in the on state until the current through it is interrupted. So, at the beginning of a power pulse, the main SCR is turned on. When the logic of the controller decides to end the power pulse, it turns on a second smaller SCR to discharge a capacitor into the motor circuit. This momentary pulse stops (commutates) the main SCR from conducting. And, since the capacitor discharge is only momentary, the second SCR turns off as well. The inductance of the motor tries to maintain the current which causes the voltage across the motor to reverse. This reverse voltage is conducted by the third power device, a large diode. These three expensive components closely interact and it is likely that if any go bad, they may all go bad. Plus, they may be damaged by an incorrect logic signal, so replacing them may only result in a second failure. I gather that most folks replace the EV-1 controller rather than attempt to repair it. There is logic circuitry in the EV-1 that tries to preserve the expensive devices from bad things and stop a runaway condition should one fail. In other words for any real or imagined fault, the logic opens the main contactor to stop or limit the damage. In my experience though, the logic shuts down until the throttle is closed and then reopened. This is not consistent with the contactor chattering that you observed, and that leads me back to the conclusion that the pack voltage is falling enough to cause the drop out. I don't believe that I would try anything with the heater load yet. Another test that may give you some more information is to measure individual battery voltage under the contactor chattering condition. You will have to use an analog meter, and scope still would be best. You may just find a battery reversing. I sure talk a lot. Mike ---------------------------------------------
From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
Rob Vasichek Range [email protected]
Mike your brake drag should be the same jacked up or on the ground. If you have way more drag on the ground you need to check wheel bearing adjustment. Your point about heat is correct. We normal look for a hot wheel if we suspect a dragging brake. I think tire heat only indicates that the tires are hot. When I had 145/10 Michelin tires I noticed they ran a lot hotter then the 145/10 Falken tires. Also the Michelin tires only ran about 6000 miles and the Falkens always ran 11000. How many amps are you drawing at 40 mph in high gear on a level road with no wind? My Bus runs about 190 amps at these conditions. Also could you have a bad battery or cell? Did you check voltage at each battery and S.G. in each cell? Is your controller OK. I noticed a slight increase in range when I got rid of the Curtis and put in an Auburn controller. Rob. -----------------------------Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rob, I have the original GE EV1 SCR based controller. My ammeter and state of charge meters are original as well. My indicated current under the same 40 mph conditions is about 180 amperes. My range on brand new T-125s was about 25 miles to 80% discharged (20% SOC). Now with about 450+ cycles, my range is about 20 miles. However, the batteries start to boil at 15 miles. Soon it may get cool in Phoenix and maybe the batteries will stop boiling. In the life of this pack, I replaced one battery, and the specific gravity of all of the cells is the same and fine. My research indicated that the original batteries were about equivalent to Trojan T-125s. Would T-145s be more appropriate? Thanks, Mike -============================ Subject: Re: sources for motor and controllers From: "Bob Rice" Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:41:36 -0500 To: Hi Chris; Most guys are using ether Warfield, Netgain motors, or Advanced Motors offerings. I STRONGLY recommend the Warp/Netgain ones because they are, were designed by guys right here on the List. J Wayland ran ideas that were built into the new line of traction motors. OK shameless plug here, but when I'm happy with a product I'll talk about it!! There are old GE's floating around on the classyfied EV ads. Bulletproof, and if you lose interest, in a EV they would make good boatanchors! Don't ya DARE! SOMEbody else would want to buy it out. I made a ironclad offer to
a friend that was gunna build an EV but chickened out. I sed that I would buy his stuff out at what he paid for it. I found loving homes for EVerything but the Curtis controller. Controllers/ A no brainer. Go to Cafe Electric, Otmar is the dean and garu of the genre! There are old Rapters out there but they, I'm afraid are orphens, as Damon at DCP isn't making them anymore. BUT he has fixed a few of mine, but they wern't blown out. Still have the factory smoke inside! Otmar's Zillas are most any voltage ya want to run, check out his website! OK guyz I missed stuff, I'm sure? Fill us in on the rest of the stuff!! Bob..82 Rabbit 9 in motor Rapter controller PFC 20 charger.120 volts worth of t 105's ----- Original Message ----From: "Chris Seeley" To: "EVDL" Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:13 PM Subject: sources for motor and controllers ========
====================================== Mark, I can think of a few things: 1) The controller is overheating. The controller will limit the current to avoid damaging itself. The usual cause of controller overheating is the failure of the blower that cools it. When the controller cools, it works to capacity again. 2) Bad connection. This means that energy is being released at the bad connection instead of the motor. So, you can look for some connection getting very hot. Often, a bad connection gets worse when it heats. 3) Bad battery.
Same as #2, except look for a boiling battery.
4) Accelerator pot going bad. This is probably not it since I doubt whether it would get better after sitting for a while. However, if you strike out on #1-#3, this is worth checking. Thanks, Mike -------- Original Message -------Subject: Diagnosing temporary Power Loss Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:59:33 -0500 From: Mark Freidberg Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List To: [email protected]
Normally the ammeter in my Evan will swing up over 200-300 amps if I step on the "gas." But on 3 occasions, after traveling several kilometers, the ammeter would barely creep over 100 amps and the van would barely
accelerate as I limped on home. But later the Van would operate normally again. What is causing this? Mark Freidberg =================================
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-============= INSTRUMENTATION -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=============
------------------------------------...a 150 amp continuous draw which is what the Electra Van will do max. ------------------------------------=================================== Yes.
The three Electravans I've worked with have standard 500 Amp, 50 mV shunts.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:09:36 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote: >> >>Does anyone know if the Electravans made by JET used a standard 50mv shunt. ------------------------------------I don't know what to conclude from this, but I am getting > > suspicious that Hall effect meters don't work well with > > the controller pulses these readings were made while > > driving. Any advice or comments? I have also found clamp-on ammeters to be untrustworthy in the presence of switching noise, and would not trust either of your clamp-on readings. I have used a portable digital storage scope to monitor the current ripple on the batteries in an EV I used to own that also had an EV-1 SCR controller like yours, and the ripple was the full motor current, e.g. 200A pulses at partial throttle, so it is substantial. If you are trying to establish the accuracy of the meter movement, you could remove it from the vehicle and test it by applying an appropriate voltage for full-scale reading (e.g. if you have a 500A 50mV shunt, and
a 500A full-scale meter, then applying 50mV to the meter should yield full scale. 0mV should yield 0A. Adjust the movement to give the most accurate reading at the region of interest. Shunts are generally pretty accurate and unless subject to mechanical damage, I don't think you need to worry about the shunt having become inaccurate over time. However, you could pull the shunt and test its output (in mV) vs the clamp-on meters with a pure DC load if you wanted to verify that it is still OK after all these years. Hope this helps, Roger. ---------------Don, Two (or all three) voltmeters are out of calibration then. The way to check your meters it is to measure voltage on a band-gap voltage reference you can ger from digikey or others. Say, 10V is convenient value. For example, you can use: 0.05% accurate: LT1236ACN8-10 or AD587KN both $6.14 0.1% accurate: ADR01AR %2.93 or LM4040 - $2.39 You can check all your meters against it. Use spec's temp (usually room 25'C) when you do this. That above is valid for pure DC measurements though. When you measure voltage while on charge, results will vary because of the waveform (not pure DC). Unless you use the scope to see what you're measuring or you know what the voltmeter error is, it will be a guess. Knowing the error exactly is near impossible since the load changes the duration of voltage pulses present on top of DC voltage, and that skews the measurements for different voltmeters to different degrees. Victor Don Cameron wrote: > > > > > > > > > >
I have three DVMs,
Radio Shack: Meterman: OTC:
12.78 12.82 12.7
I measured the same battery with each:
I thought maybe the leads have an effect, so I tried each with each other leads and get the same results. I wonder, what can be used as an accurate voltage reference?
-looks like what you need is a LMV431, the "low voltage" variant of the chip.
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMV431.html Here is the "General Description" from the datasheet: "The LMV431, LMV431A and LMV431B are precision 1.24V shunt regulators capable of adjustment to 30V. Negative feedback from the cathode to the adjust pin controls the cathode voltage, much like a non-inverting op amp configuration (Refer to Symbol and Functional diagrams). A two resistor voltage divider terminated at the adjust pin controls the gain of a 1.24V band-gap reference. Shorting the cathode to the adjust pin (voltage follower) provides a cathode voltage of a 1.24V. The LMV431, LMV431A and LMV431B have respective initial tolerances of 1.5%, 1% and 0.5%, and functionally lends themselves to several applications that require zener diode type performance at low voltages. Applications include a 3V to 2.7V low drop-out regulator, an error amplifier in a 3V off-line switching regulator and even as a voltage detector. These parts are typically stable with capacitive loads greater than 10nF and less than 50pF." ======================================= Lawrence, the SOC meters on Jet's an just not very accurate or reliable. Since it determines state of charge solely based on voltage, it just hasn't got enough info to do so properly. My Jet 007 twice fooled me when the percent charge gage read 100% but the charger had never been on at all. The batteries were probably at about 60% charge, but after sitting 14 hours the meter indicated 100%. I suspect yours is even less accurate for some reason, probably corrosion. After all, it is 25 years old isn't it? I would get an E-meter or at least an accurate digital voltmeter. don't even have a good guess at the true state of charge.
Right now you
Thanks, Mike Chancey, '88 Civic EV '95 Solectria Force Kansas City, Missouri EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html ---------------From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
Rob Vasichek 12 inch wheels [email protected]
Well I finally had enough of those 10 inch two part tube type wheels. I made a set (5) of 12 inch tubeless wheels. I am running 155/12 Kelly tires. $25.00 each. They can carry 882 LBS at 44 psi. This corrected the spedo error I had with the 145/10 tires. The Bus rides better , steers better and handles better. I was concerned that the range would be way down due to the
bigger/wider tires but this looks like it is statistically not significant. Rob. ------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, Thanks for the information about your current readings and your confidence in them. I just borrowed a DC digital clamp on meter to use to check my ammeter. I am uncomfortable with it since I don't have the manual and thus don't know how it does its averaging. I moved a magnet through its pickup a few times at different speeds and it seems to have a fairly long time constant. Oh, the thing is in pretty rough shape as well; I had to repair the LCD display to use it at all. I figure that if it reads the same as the van's meter, I'm OK. If it reads differently, I will have to find another meter. I should get to my testing this weekend. Do shunts fail? What if I just verified the panel meter's accuracy, and not the shunt? So, let's jump ahead a little. Let's assume that the ammeter check out, and my wheel alignment checks out. I think that I am drawing too much current for the speed. I would next be suspicious of the motor. A year ago, at somewhere around 10000 miles the brushes died. When I replaced them I thought that I ought to look at the armature windings. Not having a growler, I ran a 60 Hz current of about 1 ampere through each adjacent pair of commutator bars in turn and measured the voltage with a separate pair of wires. All pairs had the same (tiny) voltage within a close tolerance. I jumped to the conclusion that the armature was OK. I did no testing of the field. Do you have any suggestions about how I could verify the motor? Thanks, Mike
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========== BATTERIES / BATTERY BOX -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========
Here's a trick for fitting batteries in odd locations. Make your battery boxes out of 1" styrafoam. It's easy to cut and fit it into the nooks and crannies. Then fiberglass it, inside and out. Now you have custom molded, insulated, acid-proof boxes that are tightly integrated into the unibody. ------------Regarding your K&W and battery cleaning, I learned a nice way to clean from Scott Cornell using Windex. The Windex is slightly alkaloid (or opposite of the acidic PH gunk that tends to accumulate on your
batteries over time), so it cleans and neutralizes the battery tops. I spray the Windex on and wipe them off once a month. I have never used baking soda. Last summer I ran into the GFI-tripping problem with my K&W. By convention, I check the voltage between the most-positive post (battery 11+ in my car) to the hatch latch monthly. My car had been towed behind a dirty ICE car, and the tops of my front batteries got a lot of carbon and dirt on them. 11+ to hatch went to 100V, although it had been building up slowly over a month or two. Cleaned the tops as normal, and still 100V. So I had to find where the leakage was. I noted that the "phantom" voltage seemed to build, or get larger, the further away I got from the most-negative post, which is on the #5 battery up front. I de-cabled the front pack, and the only battery that had a voltage leak to the car frame was #5. Some crud had built up where it was very hard to clean underneath a cable in the corner. I cleaned very carefully, but firmly, several times, and finally the stray voltage went away. I then rechecked the voltages as I recabled the pack, and the stray voltage stayed very close to 0. Bingo! Happy K&W! Your alternative is to use an isolated charger such as the Zivan, but an ironic benefit of the K&W is that it keeps you honest in keeping your batteries clean. -------------------------Subject: Re: new electravan owner Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; I'm in central Illinois. Before putting in batteries I've got to clean out, repair & repaint the floor under the battery box & put a new bottom on the box as the owner before last ran down the batteries, let it sit over winter, & several batteries froze & burst, leaking acid & causing a significant rust problem. If the new batteries went in first and worked, I don't know when or if I'd get around to fixing it right. But that's part of getting a bargain. The bus visually seems to be pretty much ok - no dangling wires or half-baked homebrewed stuff hanging off. Thanks for the interest. All the help I can get won't be too much, I know. Randy [email protected]
wrote:Hi Randy, Where are you located ? Menlo Park III, Bill, Glastonbury, CT 1979 ElectraVan 600 ----------------------------========================= At 11:18 PM 3/05/05 -0400, Martin K wrote: > I'm looking for a shunt in the 250 amp range, slightly more or less > would be fine I assume. I posted this here because I'm looking for a > used [read: cheaper] one. I'm broke. Hi Martin How many millivolts at 250A? A shunt generates usually 50mV or 75mV for it's full scale continuous current handling. What is your application? I'd assume that you have a digital instrument that is scaleable? Or are you just treating a meter as 100% is 250A (etc).
A shunt is just a low value resistor, if you have means of calibrating, and don't want extreme accuracy, there is the option of making your own. 75mV at 250A is 0.0003 ohms. I've mislaid my printout of wire resistance for size for length, but for example you may find that a certain size of wire gives 75mV across (say) 18 inches. You could make up a cable that is (say) 24 inches long, with a tap-in point 3 inches in from each end. You can't put the sense wires into the power crimps, you will get unpredictable errors. Now comes the hard part - you have to put a known current through it, and see what your meter (or whatever) reads, then calibrate accordingly. I have only done this for a 50A circuit in a mobile home 'house' system. It worked sufficiently well for their application. James ---12" of #10 solid copper wire
1 milivolt per amp! Simple. Cheap. 10% accurate. BoyntonStu -----Original Message----From: [email protected]
] On Behalf Of Maki, Garret Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:16 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: WTB: shunt ================================ Subject: E-Meter Blues From: "Don Cameron" Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:49:32 -0800 To: I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. It all worked, so I programmed it, then tested it, and I realized the current was reading backwards. So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3 (which go to the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it up. Nothing, blank, do display of any kind. I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the E-Meter has power, ground and voltage from the prescaler. Any ideas? thanks Don
Victoria, BC, Canada See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues From: "Joe Smalley" Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:45:14 -0800 To: 1) When you removed and reinstalled the fuses, did you do it in the specified order? Sometimes it makes a difference. Always hook up the blue wire first, then the red according to page 18 of the manual. Make sure you don't have a noisy powerup because it can scramble the microcontroller. 2) Did the bargraph come on? Did the Circle letters (V,A,Ah, &T) come on? If they did, it means the power is connected (pin 5), but there is too little voltage on the sense input (pin 4). In the Low Voltage section of the manual (p25), it says the voltage on pin 4 must be at least 10 volts to get the digits to illuminate. 3) The meter might come up configured for no prescaler. If you press the SET button for three seconds, you can then press the SEL button until F13 shows in the display. Press SET until 1 is showing for a 100 volt prescaler or 2 is showing for a 500 volt prescaler. Press SEL to exit the F13 setup. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [email protected]
----------From: [email protected]
] On Behalf Of Lee Hart Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues Don Cameron wrote: >> 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not >> do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the >> meter (pins 2 & 3). >> >> 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
no digits, nothing
Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it. Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be working but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank the display when they see anything less than ~10v. Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering nothing but the E-meter, don't you?) ------------------------------------I am using 100 A-Hr. cells paralleled with 200 A-Hr cells, using 30 A fuses between the two. Because the cell voltage drops steadily as they discharge and drops more with higher current, they share the load well. However, if you want around 150 to 180 A-Hr., it will be less expensive, more efficient in space and less connections to make and maintain, if you just buy the 200 A-Hr cells. I used 100s and 200s because at low voltage and higher current, (93 V on an 84 V regen controller) I needed more than 200 A-Hr. and there is no 300 A-Hr. size. How many cells (what voltage?) and what size/weight vehicle are these for? Best Regards, Doug ----- Original Message ----From: "Bill Dennis" To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:12 PM Subject: ThunderSky in Parallel > > > > > > > >
Would there be any charging or discharging problems with ThunderSky batteries hooked up in series/parallel? For example, but together 2 90Ah cells in parallel to get 180Ah (or 3 50Ah cells for 150Ah), then hook a bunch of those up in a series string? Thanks. Bill Dennis
Bill, I suggest that about 40 200A-Hr cells is the minimum Thunder Sky pack energy capacity to power a small car - if you back them up with something like 12 of 12V AGM batteries to share the peak load currents of starting and acceleration. Note that my pack of 26 200 A-Hr and 26 100 A-hr cells is almost the same capacity as what you are planning to have, and has less cells to monitor, so needs fewer BMS modules. It is OK for city use, and
does highway at about 55 MPH.. This pack is helped by the 12V lead acid battery and contactor voltage boost, for short duration higher power when needed (acceleration and slight uphill grades), AGM "shadow" pack and regenerative braking (one reason I kept the lower voltage and did the paralleling of cells) and range extender generator which can supply 50 A of the load. You may not have planned to use all these aids to extend the Thunder Sky capability or even 1 of them! Your higher voltage will enable you to go faster but you will be drawing much more than the recommended 60 Amps for using them efficiently, and waste more of the capacity as heat. Then you will be deeper-discharging the pack for the same distances travelled and get less cycles/distance life than you would have otherwise. That will make the TS pack even more expensive in terms of miles per dollar. With the amount of money you would invest in this battery pack, it is in your interest to consider all these factors. I am boosting performance and stretching the TS capabilities at lower extra cost, by the 4 methods mentioned above. If cost was not that important and space not a problem, then you could skip some of those methods and just put in 80 200A-Hr cells in pairs! I would consider that the minimum quantity for a TS-only (no AGM support) battery pack. Note that Victor has a higher pack capacity than you are planning and has added an ultra-capacitor pack to help out with peak current. Also consider the affect on actual weight of needing more aluminum end plates (even though smaller), mounting hardware and cabling, which would probably offset the higher Wh/kg of 50 A-Hr cells. There is also more to go wrong with 3 paralleled cells, including accidents connecting and disconnecting cables while installing or servicing the pack. You can use 120 50 A-Hr cells to move your car, but I think it is "false economy" considering the likely lower performance and life and more trouble. With 40 200 A-hr cells you are just at the minimum point where you can have 1 clean string of cells. My 2 TS// --------------------------From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
Re: Range [email protected]
Hi Mike, T145s will give you more range, but the high temperature (if batteries get above 115 degrees F ) will decrease the life of the batteries no matter what lead acid battery you have. Do you have a digital temperature gage ($ 8 from Radio Shack when on sale) on your battery pack ? Do you have a fan blowing air through the battery box ? Do you have atleast 1/8 inch (1/4 inch or more would be better)space on every side of the batteries to allow for maximum cooling area ? I don't know off hand how high temperature affects battery capacity during a single cycle if the batteries are not already damaged from excessive boiling just from running the vehicle. I took the seven year old EV137s out of the ElectraVan and put them in my 69 VW Beetle after the 10 year old T145s only gave the Beetle about 10 mile range. I will be adding these 10 year old T145s to my windmill / PV battery bank. I will get a new battery pack for the ElectraVan after checking out the wheel bearings, installing a new motor, taking care of the transmission jumping out of reverse (will either change trany, try to fix, or replace trany), and getting a wheel alignment some time next year I hope as there is just toooo much to do and not enough time to do everything as usual. Any suggestions for a new battery pack (T145s, Nickel Zinc, etc.) ? Menlo Park III, Bill On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:14:46 -0700 "Michael A. Radtke"
-Mike, I have T125s in my Bus! I view of your amp reading I think the problem in driving style. can easily run my pac down to 80% DOD in 15 miles. Maybe you have too many stops? Hills? Shifting too early? Also, why would the batteries boil when you are driving? at only 180 amps. Rob.
-Rob, The batteries boil because they are old and have a high internal resistance. Oh, and it still is over 100 degrees every day in Phoenix with overnight lows of 80 degrees. Higher in the carport where it charges. The daily trip is flat but with a few hundred feet altitude gain in the morning. On a good day, I can drive the 10 miles to work at 40 mph with perhaps 3 stops. No boiling. The car sits all day in the sun. (It never rains.) Then the trip home is at 30 mph with heavy traffic. More stops, but still, I hardly ever use the brakes. When the batteries were new, I got home with about 50% and no noticeable lack of response. My acceleration would be considered in the slow. I target 200 amps as my maximum. Now with tired batteries, I hit a 50% charge at 5 miles from home and soon I can't keep up with the slowest accelerating traffic. The batteries start spitting. It takes full throttle to hit 200 amps once the car is rolling. I get home with 20-30% charge left. I don't mind replacing the batteries, but I covet that 40 mile range. Thanks for your thoughts, ----------------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, 1) I don't have a fan except for hydrogen removal during charging. I am not concerned with the battery life at this point. The 450 cycles that I've gotten is OK with me. I want a 40 mile range on new batteries. 2) No, I don't have any space between the batteries. The Trojans were a tight fit and swelled as they aged. 3) I have only just begun looking at a new battery pack. I plan to stick with flooded lead acid. I have had a few email exchanges with Jim Douglas (management) and Chuck Pariano (sales) of Douglas battery and they seem to want to be in the EV market. Thanks for sharing, Mike --From:
Subject: Re: Range Comments: To: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain Hi Mike, Well those batteries that are completely surrounded by other batteries have been and will continue to overheat while charging and while in use during hot weather. It is no wonder you have not gotten full cycle life and full range from such a "HOT" pack. Blowing air over the top will not keep them cool enough. They must have some space on all four sides to allow maximum cooling. Menlo Park III --
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========== DC/DC CONVERTERS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========
EVs need 12 volt DC power to operate standard automotive accessories, such as lights, horn, radio, fans, and such. There are several ways to provide this 12v power. You can use a 12v battery and the original alternator, belt driven off the electric motor. It works the same as it does in a normal car, i.e. it's not particularly elegant or efficient. Some budget EVs eliminate the alternator, and just use a large deep-cycle 12v battery that gets recharged when the traction battery is recharged. It works, but makes for weak headlights and poor accessory performance unless the 12v wiring is improved to eliminate the typical 1-2 volt drops between battery and loads. Another less-than-satisfactory approach is to tap the traction batteries to get 12v. This tends to unbalance the batteries, and creates safety problems unless the traction pack is itself a low voltage (24-48 volts). Most modern EVs thus use a DC to DC converter. This is an electronic power supply that takes high voltage DC power from the car's traction battery pack, and provides an isolated 12 volt output to power standard accessories. They are small, light, silent, and have no moving parts. The DC to DC converter is usually set to provide a solid 14 volt output so lights and accessories work the same as they would in a normal car with the alternator charging the battery. The most common DC/DC converters used in conversions are made by Todd, Sevcon, Curtis, and Vicor.
Special thanks to Lee Hart for the assist on this page. -----------------------------------==================================== I've been pondering a 72/12 volt DC-DC solution for my Citi and coincidentally the new Astrodyne power supply catalog came in. They have some new products that are right down our alley and very affordable. The first is the SD350 350 watt inverter. http://www.astrodyne.com/astro/product_main_matrix.asp?dept_id=6&watts=86 Data sheet here: http://datasheet.astrodyne.com/SD350.pdf This inverter family is available with a DC input range of 19 to 144 volts. Output is adjustable from 11 to 16 volts at 27.5 amps. $129 in single piece quantities, $119 for 10. I just got off the phone with an application engineer. One of my questions was whether this 144 volt rating is working or max. He said that it could probably withstand 10% more than the rating. For higher voltages he recommended the AC/DC converter lines that will run on DC input. This is similar to the Lambda supplies but cheaper. The SP series will accept up to about 375vdc, minimum of about 120 vdc. They're available in ratings up to 1500 watts (100 amps out). A 320 watt unit (22 amps) is $149. These can be operated in parallel. The PSP series has an extra terminal to force load sharing for parallel operation. I've just ordered an SP350 for my Citi.
I'll report on its operation.
Meanwhile, considering the good discount on quantity, someone here might consider organizing a group buy. John --John De Armond [email protected]
http://www.johngsbbq.com Cleveland, Occupied TN --I may have a clue for you... The VI-N52-EM data sheet is at http://www.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_megamod.pdf The VI-BXXX module is described on sheet 10 (page 3-1) of the applications manual at http://www.vicr.com/documents/applications_manual/apps_manual.pdf The B modules have no control circuitry, they need to be clocked by a driver
module. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [email protected]
----- Original Message ----From: "Matt Holthausen" To: Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Vicor DC-DC VI-N(B)52-EM (from Halted)
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
Hello all, Sorry to bring up this thread again, but I've got a question about one of the units I ordered. Very early on I purchased one of these DC-DC converters from Halted and it sat around for a while. I got around to testing it and it worked fine after I applied 150v to the input - I immediately got 15v out, and didn't have to connect anything to any of the six logic terminals. After this, I decided that I could probably use two of these in my conversion, so I ordered a second (also from Halted, from the same listing on their site). This one just arrived today, and it looks exactly the same, has the same input-output numbers stamped on it (150v 750w in, 15v 600w out) but the model is VI-NB52-EM instead of VI-N52-EM. I connected the input to the same source that successfully ran the other one, and...nothing. It gives me a tiny spark when I connect the (live) input, just like the other one did, but I don't get anything out of it. Any ideas? I was unable to find exactly what the 'B' meant in any of Vicor's literature. Has anyone else seen reference to this model? Thanks, Matt Holthausen
--All Vicor driver modules can be used as boosters. That's what the "Gate In" and "Gate Out" pins are for. Connect them as show in the Vicor data sheets. You only need to trim the one Driver to set the output voltage for all of them. If you try to separately trim each "booster" driver, you might get the sort of instabilitiy (noise) you are describing. Have you checked with Vicor's application engineer? Perhaps the particular modules you have are "specials" or somehow different? --Yeah...and it works...but with sense lines left disconnected (as with booster modules), she still screams like a banshee. 2nd generation Vicor modules don't distinguish between driver and booster.
Only the 1st gen. Have you actually tried a 1st gen driver module as a booster as you describe Lee? I'd be happy to know. -Myles ->The devil is in the details. Sorry; you're right! With the standard VI-200 36vdc in, 12vdc out modules, I had trim resistors on +sense, -sense, and trim to adjust them both up to 13.5v. In the EV, I powered each input separately from 36v of the pack. My EV had two 36v packs, and series/parallel contactors, so I needed two independent DC/DCs to equalize the load. But when testing on the bench, I used a single 36v supply to power them both. I found that they did not share the load. Whichever one was adjusted even 1 millivolt higher delivered *all* the current, until the load was so great that it went into current limit; then the second one began supplying current. To fix this, I cranked one VI-200's trimpot wide open, and connected GateOut of the "driver" to GateIn of the "booster". This caused them to share the load approximately equally (their output currents matched within about 10%). I did not notice any acoustic noise when they were operating this way. But in my EV, I couldn't tie GateIn to GateOut because the two Vicors do not share a common ground. So, to equalize the load delivered by each, I ran them both as Drivers, and added a commoning diode in series with each output. The diodes caused a small current-dependent voltage drop so that setting each Vicor's trimpot for the same voltage resulted in each supplying about the same share of the load current. The diodes also prevented the Vicors from drawing current *from* the accessory battery when their inputs were off. The second case was with a pair of Vicor Batmods being operated as a driver-booster pair. The booster had resistors on its Vtrim and Itrim pins to command it to full current. Its actual power output was controlled by the GateIn-GateOut wire from the driver. Again, I noted no instabilities or acoustic noise. -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net --->If you have a 72V system you might expect that your actual battery pack >>voltage would vary from around 60 volts to about 90V. >>Thus I don't see where one of the specified input ranges would cover your >>needs. I discussed this with an application engineer. The voltage range is nominal. If the absolute voltage rating is exceeded the unit shuts down to protect the FETs, according to him. This is expected
behavior, I think, since it's hard to imagine a high voltage DC/DC application NOT involving some sort of battery system. Since I plan to interlock the control system with the charger so that none of the controls are energized during charging, that problem will be solved anyway. >>I would also comment that you need to be careful about these types of power >>supplies. They aren't designed to be mounted on a vehicle. They won't be >>protected against water intrusion. Mine goes in the passenger compartment so that's not an issue. >>If you leave your converter connected >>all the time does the fan run all the time? I forgot to ask the apps guy but I bet that it has a smart fan that only runs when necessary. Heck, even my cheapie $29 inverters have that feature. -Most of the DC/DC converters will go below the nameplate rating but are derated in current (unless they have an undervoltage lockout, but most likely not until you reach 60Vdc). I say go with it! John's willing to experiment and maybe we can all benifit. Rod --
Regarding using Vicor DC/DC DRIVER modules as BOOSTERs, Lee Hart suggested: >> >> >> >> >> >>
...load was so great that it went into current limit; then the second one began supplying current. To fix this, I cranked one VI-200's trimpot wide open, and connected GateOut of the "driver" to GateIn of the "booster". This caused them to share the load approximately equally (their output currents matched within about 10%). I did not notice any acoustic noise when they were operating this way.
I tried this today----reconfigured one of my semi-hacked-up Vicor Modupac Driver modules back to its Driver configuration, minus the GateIN filter cap (so it'd respond as a booster), hooked it up in parallel with a driver module, and "dzzzzzzt"...same electric frequency-variable banshee sound as the "booster" module kicks in.... Then, I adjusted the trimpot to the high end of its range and tried it again. This time, no "dzzzzzzzt". Rather, a continuous, soundless transition from 0-9amps (current limit for one 24v/8a module), then 9-18+amps and finally current limit. So, now that I know this works with the 24v modules, I need to hack the
24vDC modules out and insert 48v, 150w modules into these Modupacs and VOILA-----0-3.6kw with 3 PFC Megapacs stuffed with 8 48v modules each. Or so the theory goes...later I'll add a 3-stage charger control (wish I had Vicor BatMods...oh well). Thanks for the help Lee...I was reluctant to simply keep the Driver modupac module unmodified except for the GateIN filter cap since I expected the drivers would fight each other. But the Gate modulation prevents that as long as the "boosters" are trying to put out at least as much voltage as the driver or booster upstream---at least that's today's theory... -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. ------hey I just got a PDF from Mean Well for Power supplies for the PFC50 chargers. The 125 watt units can be trimmed to 14.25 to 15.5 volts And you can feed them 127 to 370 DC as well as 90 to 264 VAC. be a pretty good DC/DC converter for $70 bucks.
This gets to
As I have said The Uni input power supplies are getting close to useable DC/DC converters. These are the PPS-125 series Supplies They are 2x what I am using, and 2x the price, But they have better specs than what I am using now, and You can get them before August '05.... Madman Manzanita Micro -------------------------------NEW Todd 12V charger PC-20 "B" will run on DC -- POSTed for Gary DATE: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:06:42 From: "Gary Flo" A number of people have posted that the NEW Todd 12V chargers don't work on DC any more. According to my conversations with Todd engineers that is not entirely true. They told me that the NEW Todd PC-20 "B" will run on DC. None of the others will...yet, but they are working on it. Gary Flo
-------------------------------Solid-state chargers The latest thing in battery charging, these chargers are lightweight (no transformer) and very efficient, but expensive. The only 2 brands currently available are from Todd and Statpower. And if they say "50 amp," you'll get 50 amp into empty batteries.. Charging current is controlled electronically for best efficiency. One note--with Todd chargers (the brand we use here), be careful to unplug the charger from the generator when starting or stopping it, otherwise the charger can be damaged over time.
----------------------------------===================================== Mike wrote: > I need a DC DC converter! I really don't have the money to spend on a Sevcon or similar model, and need an inexpensive solution so I can drive my EV reliably. > > It was mentioned a couple days ago that a computer power supply could be used/ modified to be a DC DC Converter. Will this work on a 90 volt battery pack? Does anybody have any suggestions/ instructions on how to modify it. I am familiar with electronics, but not that much with DC DC converters. Also, does anybody have any experience with Peak to Peack Power DC DC converters (http://www.peacktopeakpower.com/catalogs/meanweel/sd-200.html)? It looks like it puts out about 16 amps on 90 volts, and costs only about $77.00. > > Thanks, > Mike > Hi Mike, Computer power supplies are intended to operate from 87-247 VAC ( I might be off by a few volts ) Because these are AC volts, the rectified voltage peaks on the low end at 87*sqrt(2) volts, or about 120 volts DC. This is 30 volts higher than your nominal voltage. What I am getting at is that it might work, or it might not. I would add a filter on the input side and be careful of the current on the output. -Computer power supplies don't back down gracefully, there's a good chance it'll blow something out if you continually try to draw too much current. You could compensate for this (If you can get it to make 14 volts!) by feeding your aux battery from this P/S through a resistor of probably .25 ohms - the logic being that your aux battery won't let a very large load go below 10 volts (transient), so you have a 4 volt difference across .25 ohms effectively limiting your current to 16 amps. -They also aren't designed to run at more than about 75% of what the nameplate reads (.25 ohms might be too low). -You might also need to load the 5 or 3.3v rail a little bit to get 12v out instead of 11.5 or so. -There's a chance you could get it up to 13.25v, but I'd be surprised if it would go to 13.8v like you need, without modifying the feedback divider resistors (if it has any) But hey, for $12 it's worth a try: And yes, you can parallel them if you use a resistor on each one (do not connect the power supplies directly) Use fuses.
-Just a few things to look out for here, some PC power supplies only regulate the 5V (or 3.3V) rail as it is the main voltage used by the computer. So if you are loading the 12V rail but not the 5V rail it will not be able to respond to changes in load. You might find you're only getting 10V instead of 12. And 12V isn't really enough either, 14V would be much better. One idea would be to connect 3 of these in series, either 5 + 5 + 3.3 for 13.3V or 5 +5 +5 for 15V. You'd also get a lot more current this way too, 30 or 40A! Remember PC power supplies are isolated, but the common (negative) wire is grounded to the chassis of the power supply. So if you are putting them in series you need to isolate the ground from the chassis. Using 3 supplies is a bit messy, but you could take them apart and put them into a single housing. -----------------------Message-ID: From: MitchellOates.com To: ev.sjsu.edu Subject: RE: More Electravan maintainance. After 18 years sitting you betc ha. Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:57:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, it doesn't have a DC/DC. the Lester also charges the 12V aux battery, it's a total loss system - all the 12V items run solely off the aux battery. FYI, on mine found that a 40 amp Todd DC/DC along with a Group 75 SLI battery was more than sufficient - the gas version of these trucks came with a 35 amp alternator! As far as the frame, if it's just surface rust, you can get some of that rust converting black paint in either spray can or brush-on and paint over it. -------------------------Reverend Gadget wrote: >> >> >> >>
While we're on the subject, anyone know of a dc to dc converter to use on a 156V setup? I've only found them to 120V. If there is such a thing I'm sure you guys would know. Thanks
A 156v pack is close enough to the peak of the 120v AC line (120 x 1.4 = 168vdc) that you can use a switching power supply. Just check to be sure it has a bridge rectifier on its input (which works with DC), and not a voltage doubler (which doesn't). -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Seth Allen wrote: >> >> >> >>
As for the price: You will find that Vicor DC-DCs cost about a buck a watt or more when purchased in high quantity. And that Solectria DC-DC is more than a Vicor in terms of parts (housing, heatsink, PCB, engineering) and labor, overhead, etc.
Yes; the Vicor module is 90% of a DC/DC converter, but you still need all those little "extra parts" if it is to work right. Basically, it needs: - noise filters - fault protection (fuses, overtemp limiters, etc.) - protection diodes (or your battery will discharge back into the Vicor when off) >> >> >> >>
I always *heard* that they functioned best as a standalone 12V. My suspicion (and it is just that) is that there is not enough resistance between the Vicor and a battery to make life easy on the Vicor regulator.
Correct. The standard Vicor modules are *NOT* battery chargers. They are precision voltage regulated power supplies. You aren't taking proper care of a battery by forcing a constant voltage across it. If there is no voltage change across the battery, then there is never any charge/discharge current. You don't need the battery at all in these circumstances -- you might as well replace it with a big capacitor. If you *do* have a battery, then you need a reasonable charging algorithm for it. The voltage *has* to be allowed to rise and fall for the battery to deliver any energy, and for it to properly recharge afterwards. Vicor makes special versions of their DC/DCs for battery charging; the Batmods. They work well with batteries. Or, you can add parts external to the standard Vicors to accomplish the necessary functions. Basically, a series diode and fuse (with their associated resistance0 are a good start. From there, you need to trim the Vicor's voltage to steer it toward some charging algorithm. -"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net ----------------
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=========== BODY ELECTRICAL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==========
Message-ID: From: "Lawrence Rhodes" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Subject: More Electravan maintainance. Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:09:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
After 18 years sitting you betcha.
Lots of things didn't work electrically. The ground wire on the tailight harness was disconnected. That sort of stuff. Connected the ground wire. Sanded the fuse box contacts. That solved everything. However I tried to remove the passenger compartment light cover and it crumbled in my hand. That needs replacing. I sanded a lot of the rust on the vehicle and encapsulated it with green goo. I don't think this thing has a DC/DC converter so I am considering adding one. Should I sand blast the frame and paint it or just let it go. Seems it is just surface rust. Lights all work now including brake lights. That's it for now. Lawrence Rhodes...........
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-============== INTERCONNECTS AND CABLING -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==============
Mike (and All), (Mike had asked for details to this previous post off-list, but I thought other newbies might want some clarification. Lee, feel free to jump in on this since you suggested it years ago!) Set your meter to DC millivolts and touch your meter probes to the battery posts at the end of each interconnect while running your charger. Remember, you're checking the connection between the lug and the battery terminal (also the crimp between the lug and wire), so make sure you're measuring at the battery post and not the lug. On my truck, I do this with the Zivan
bulk charging at 13 amps, and on the RX-7 I use a bad-boy with manners which is a variac through a full-wave bridge at around 10 amps (as I've said, I normally use Soneil modular chargers on each battery and 30 amp FrankenLesters for bulk charging). Since measuring such a low resistance through the interconnects is difficult, you're instead measuring the voltage drop with a known current flowing, which through ohm's law equates to resistance. For a comparison, the short interconnects on my truck vary from one to five millivolts (with 13 amps flowing), and the two long interconnects from the back battery packs to the front measure around 16 millivolts each. Finally, the short interconnects on the RX-7 vary from one to eight millivolts (with 10 amps flowing), and the two longer interconnects from front to back measure 10 millivolts each. Hope this helps, Dave (B.B.) Hawkins Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council: http://www.devc.org/
---------------------I've always used welding cable extensively in flexible, so it's easy to work with and bend, the battery or inverter terminals. In normal home-sized systems, I generally use #4/0 for inverter cables (and if a big ground
solar power installations. It's and doesn't put physical stress on #2/0 for battery interconnects and wire is needed.)
BUT, welding cable is NOT code approved (NEC) for battery banks/inverters! What gives? Personally, I think welding cable is the SAFEST, esiest option. Home Power Magazine ran a test of welding cable in a sulfuric acid environment (you can download it at homepower.com) and it performed as well as the code-approved stiff, nasty cable. -Dan, i have to agree,i have used welding cable for almost everything myself. its way better in flexibility and the multiple fine conductors are more efficient. We have a great source of big cables here,being near a military base,they use 50ft long 1/0 to jump off 24vdc equipment and trucks and they can sometimes be bought for little to nothing at the auctions.these cables are identical to welding cable,with the fine strands.It seems as usual,code is slow to change/follow. I have even used one of these cables to run power to my workshop! Anything i bury,i do put inside of electrical plastic conduit(pvc) having been burned once long ago from burying cables directly. ================= Don, Did you use noalox or any other anticorrosion compound before crimping? http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap2.jpg Before crimp http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap4.jpg
After the crimp - extra noalox is squeezed out http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap5.jpg End result http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap7.jpg Nave no problems with my interconnects since day one. Victor '91 ACRX - something difrferent ====================================== On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:50:14 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote: >> >> >> >>
I got a half liter of Liquid Tin made by M.G Chemicals. Anyone have experience with this product? I'll be using it to tin my buss bars on the Electravan and other projects as they come up. This will keep corosion down. Says it works in 5 minutes.
I've used it to plate circuit boards. It does work very fast when it's fresh, although the smell is a bit disturbing. You're going to want to make sure the metal is very clean before you do it, even fingerprints show up well. But if the metal is clean, it works great. I guess the other concern would be that the plating is very thin and could scratch off easily...I don't know if that would be a problem or not. Andrew ---It's very expensive, and in my opinion, not worth it. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/088.jpg This picture shows three boards I treated with the stuff. I regret using it because of its very dull appearance/texture. It's nothing like what you'd see on a factory-built circuit board, which is what I was expecting. I recommend a 600grit sandpaper instead - it looks and solders great. Hope this can be of help! - Arthur Matteson =====================================
Cable connections need to be clean and tightened. Use a baking soda and water mix to clean terminals. To prevent corrosion of cables on top post batteries, use a small bead of silicon sealer at the base of the post and place a felt battery washer over it. Coat the washer with high temperature grease or petroleum jelly (Vaseline). Then place cable on post and tighten, coat the exposed cable end with
the grease ------------------------------------================================ Those bolt post terminals are the worst thing foisted onto the battery consumer! No matter how you play with the bolt, it STILL pulls out of the lead post because it ISN'T soldered or anything like that. Sorta the same action that they got rid of aluninum house wiring, the toothpaste tube effect. The lead or aluninum squeezes out under pressure nomatter what you do to hold it tight. If you are buying new batteries. Hey! That's BIG bucks, don't risk your investment! Get ONLY the SAE automotive post! Insist on it and you will get 35000 miles WITHOUT any post failures, like I have. While yur at it get good quality HD terminals, get mine from an Interstate dealer, and solder the cables into them. End of problem! End of Rant. Bob
The best Connections!
============================ Hey Tim, Gadget here, in Los Angeles. If you need some help with the cables I have all the tools here in my shop to do it. As far as corrosion control I prefer using a conductive, anti-corrosion compound such as KOPR-SHIELD it's basically grease with fine copper and zinc. It keeps the moisture out as well as aiding with conductivity. I also have a machine that will do louvers but I don't have the tooling for it. still looking for a set of dies. know where I can find some? [email protected]
================================ TiM M wrote: >> >> >> >>
How much insulation should I strip from the wire? If I remember correctly the barrel elongates some during the crimp. After the crimp should there be any copper visible between the end of the lug barrel and the cable insulation?
Just strip enough insulation so the wire bottoms out in the lug when the insulation touches the end of the barrel. No, the lug won't elongate significantly. Ideally, you'd like as little copper exposed as possible. >> I'm going to heat shrink the crimps after-wards so this would cover >> any exposed copper. That's a good idea. I like to use the heavy-wall kind that has hot melt glue inside as well to help seal it. >> Where should the crimps be?
If there's room to crimp twice, split the length of the barrel in half, and crimp once in the center of each half. >> What about No-OX (sp) or something along those lines to coat the >> copper before I crimp? Is there a particular brand out there that >> is preferred over another? In theory, your crimper is supposed to develop enough pressure to cold-weld the copper together, so no grease is needed and it won't have any effect on the connection. In practice, grease won't hurt, and might help keep water out in case the terminal gets dunked in water. Some people use fancy (expensive) concoctions; I just use vaseline.
-=-=-=-=-=-== HEATERS -=-=-=-=-=-==
Subject: Re: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT From: James Massey Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:50:05 +1000 To: [email protected]
At 02:38 AM 17/04/05 -0700, David Chapman wrote: > I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but close tolerance thermostat circuit that will work off 12V. Need to hold 1% or less at 100 deg F and be able to turn on and off 1 maybe 2 relays. Preferrably without a microprocessor. I have lots of thermistors & non specialized ICs and the like in the Junqueyard. Anyone got a junk box circuit to share? Hmm, this MIGHT be ev related if it would work for a battery heater control. Thanks in advance for any help. Hi David (and all) Easy, steal a comparator circuit from any good op-amp textbook. Thermistor goes on one side of a comparator, (if you need it stable, then an instrumentation op-amp or comparator). Not much feedback in order to keep down the switching hysteresis. No doubt someone will be able to lay their hands on something like that.
How accurate do you realy *need* it to be? �1deg F stability, with 0.5degF switching hysterisis? depending on the thermal lag demand, that could be hard. � 3deg F (6 degree swing max) should be easy. Simplest way to determine if it is going to be hard, stick a low-mass thermocouple into the load, power it up, switch off the heater immediately it hits desired setpoint. Wait for it to run over and see how far it goes over. As it falls back, immediately it hits setpoint, switch the heater back on and see how far under it goes. If it swings far over and under past the desired tolerance range, invest the money in an industrial PID temperature controller. Good ones start at around $200US retail, cheaper or surplus ones for less, but if surplus you don't get to choose your power supply in that case. I use a lot of the JUMO brand controllers (made in Germany [the former western part]) and get good results (shameless plug, since we are also local dealers), but as a low-cost item, they have great features and reliability. DC power supply is indent-order here, though. And yes, I intend having one in my truck (motor brush [thermocouple] alarm). Regards James Massey Launceston, Tasmania, Australia. -From: "Roland Wiench" Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:57:39 -0600 To: Hello David, When I install my new Zilla, I wanted to read the heat sink temperature and the water cooling temperature to this unit. I had existing Stewart Warner 12 volt coolant gage that has a range of 0 to 250 degrees, and a engine temperature gage that has a range of 0 to 600 degrees. These are the two units I used to read the data. On any of these gages, you can install a sender that is used for detecting the pilot flame of a heating system. This sender generates its own current, to drive the meters. I used the 0 to 600 degree sender to read the heat sink temperature. I went to a heating and plumbing supply house where they sell Honeywell flame senders. Took my multimeter with me to check out the current reading from each sender. Took one with the highest current reading. Before installing the sensor, I test it out on the meter, by connecting the sensor to the meter, bolt the sensor tube down to a aluminum plate, connect my multimeter temperature sensor to this aluminum plate, for tuning the Stewart meter to the multimeter temperature data.
Heated up the aluminum and the when the Stewart meter went right to 250 degrees. The multimeter temperature was about 150 degrees. So, I install a variable resistance in the Honeywell line to the Stewart gage, and adjusted it until it match the multimeter gage. That is all that is to it, Simple and works good.
just one resistor and a piro-generator flame sensor
You could also used this type of sensor on a coolant or oil temperature gage that has a range from 0 to 300 degrees. Roland -----Fortunat Mueller Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT) To: [email protected]
David, I don't think you are going to get that kind of accuracy out of a junkyard circuit. The thermocouples alone will have a resolution of a couple of degrees unless they are 'special limit' type. By the time you add a circuit of some kind (especially a junk yard circuit), i think the best you can hope for is about a 5 degree window. RTD's are a little more accurate, i think, but I don't have a lot of experience working with them. ~fortunat ------------The absolute simplest is the Dallas Semi One Wire thermostat. You have to input the setpoint and deadband using the One Wire protocol but after that, all it needs is power and ground. A third pin is the thermostat output. Dallas has on their web site a simple serial (and parallel) port level translator that you could build in an hour or so, and the necessary software. They also sell the level translators (what I use) if you don't want to roll your own. A three terminal regulator, the One Wire device and either a low coil current relay or a buffer transistor makes up the thermostat. If you need two relays, simply use two One Wires. Only about $3 ea in single piece quantities. Another simple thermostat is a common electronic room thermostat. The Hunter brand (Walmart) allows the deadband to be set down to one deg. If you need a remote sensor, simply unsolder the thermister from the thermostat board and extend it with some shielded twisted pair. A simple resistor change will make the thermostat run on 12vdc instead of 24vac. Or an RV thermostat could be obtained (http://wwww.campingworld.com and other places) that run on 12vdc. Omega engineering sells some quite inexpensive thermostat modules that use thermisters.
You might also check places like Surplus Center for surplus modules. Notice that I've not mentioned any circuits. That's because it takes a lot of work to achieve 1% accuracy over the long term. Power supply stability, temperature coefficients of the components, ageing characteristics are all involved. Given the low cost of thermostats in general, it seems to me it is better to buy someone else's engineering via commercially available modules. John --John De Armond [email protected]
http://www.johngsbbq.com http://neonjohn.blogspot.com Ok, list, > All this contactor chatter has got me wondering about what I have, >exactly: >It's the contactor out of the old GE EV1 SCR controller that JET was >using a decade or two ago. It's reasonably beefy looking, with heavy >blowouts on the contacts. The coil's rated 108Vdc (!) but there aren't >any contact ratings. The controller was a 120v setup, so I'm going to >go >out on a limb and say it's probably good for 120v! >Anyone have any guesses on the current-handling ability of this relic? >Toby >Contactors Hi Toby and all, I used one of those Jet 108 volt contactors when I added a Curtis 1221B to my Jet. I did check around and GE does offer replacement coils for that contactor in 12 volts. I used the original 108 volt coil and drove that with a 12 volt relay. My guesstimate rating on that thing must be about 400 amps continues and about 600 peak, based on the capabilities of the SCR controller it was part of. You might want to contact GE to find out for sure. I have been using mine for almost a year now, and it shows no signs of pitting or discoloration. I like having the pack voltage coil, because my car has no DC/DC converter and the small 12 volt relay pulls much less current than a big contactor. I also don't have to worry about the contacts bouncing under low voltage conditions. If you decide to use a small relay to drive the big one like I did make sure it has 120 VDC rated contacts. I got mine from C&H Surplus (1-800-325-9465) for $7.95. This is the same Potter & Brumfield PRD-7DJ0-12 DPST NO that is commonly used for EV heater circuits. Their stock number is RL9101. BTW If you want to see how the installation worked out on my Jet, I've got it on a web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5565/ Thanks, Mike Chancey [email protected]
---------------->> Installing a freewheel diode across the coil prevents the voltage spike >> by providing a path for the current to flow at the instant that coil >> power is removed. The voltage across the coil is now clamped to the >> diode's forward drop (typically > > A little trick I learned when I interned for a contactor mfr. is to put a Zener diode in series with the diode (oriented the opposite direction). The voltage rating for the Zener should be roughly what the coil is designed to be driven at. > > This e.g. 12V drop will soak up the power stored in the coil much more quickly
than the 0.7V drop of a just a diode. The coil current drops off much faster and the contacts open with quite a bit more oomph (to the point that can actually hear the difference). I do something similar to this. I ship all my Zillas with TVS devices for placement on the contactor coils. TVS stands for Transient Voltage Suppressor. These are one small part that essentially acts like two zener diodes back to back. They offer the advantage of electronic protection of the circuits while also allowing the contactor coil field to collapse quickly due to the higher voltage. As an added bonus, they are bidirectional and so there is no need to pay attention to polarity when installing them. The one I provide is a 1.5KE24CA-T. Data sheet is available here. http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Diodes_Inc/Web%20Data/1.5ke6v8(c)a1.5ke400(c)a.pdf If anyone needs one, I'll be happy to mail one to anywhere in the US for a buck. Shipping and handling included. Such a deal! Or you can order them from Digikey which is what I do. btw, If you are using Kilovac contactors beware that a standard diode will reduce the turn off speed so much that they will no longer meet their ratings. Thanks to Rich Brown for researching that issue for us all. It was that which caused me to find the TVS part. ---------------------------------------------Subject: Re: ElectraVan 600s Reverse & Performance Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List It's an Albrigh Eng. modem SW202B Reversing Contactor Set. That's right it's a set. It's two large relays bolted together. They are rated at 250 amps continuous, 360 amps intermittent duty, 1500 amps rupture. Max volts is 120 VDC. Coils are Dual 12 DVC 1.8 amps. Shipping Weight: 8 lbs. I am assuming that you are using the stock GE series motor. You know that copper bar in the motor? That comes off and two wires run from it, to the contactor. The motor negative wire from the controller, comes off the motor and goes to the contactor. A wire from the contractor go to the negative on the motor. Confused yet. One look at a diagram, and you'll get it. The way the contractor works, is one side if the contractor if energised you will go forward, the other side and you'll get reverse. In driving, bolt sides are never on at the same time, nor are they ever off. You will need a SPDT switch to control the contractor. It's not vary hard, I just seem to make it sound that way. Ken Koch of KTA can help you out. A word of advice. Mount the contractor in a dust proof box. If dust or dirt get between the contacts, they arch and slowly get eaten away. I mounted my contractor out in the open first, A year later I had to replace it because the contacts where burnt up. My new one is in a aluminum box, with lots of silicone to seal it up. It work great now. Let me know it you need photos or more info. Eddie KTA Services 944 West 21st Street Upland, Ca 91784 909-949-7914 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" Subject: No Backing Out Now Comments: To: "[email protected]
" Hello, As other folks have mentioned, reverse gear is pretty fragile. I had the problem of the ElectraVan popping out of reverse. I have a lump in my driveway
that always caused the problem, so I got in the habit of holding it in gear while I backed up. Last Thursday a lot of bad sounds came from the transmission while reversing and hence the subject line. I tore down the transmission yesterday and found all three gears used for reverse trashed. It was pretty plain to see that it was because of heavy load while only partially engaged. The funny thing is that the damage was on the side of sliding the reverse idler gear _beyond_ its fully engaged position. That puzzled me for a while until I determined that the transmission allowed the shift forks to move beyond the normal detents. This happens in all gears, but can really only cause the mis-alignment in reverse due to the way the other gears / synchros work. So, the bottom line is that my habit of holding the car in reverse caused the destruction. Of course there still is the question of why these cars like to jump out of reverse in the first place. So, now I am looking for a new transmission, or transmission parts. Any leads would be appreciated. I am seriously thinking of just blocking out reverse gear and going to an electrical reverse. Has anybody done this? Any reason not to? Thanks, Mike -I had the exact same problem. Then bang. reverse was gone. I did not go as far as taking the tranny apart. Even if I did find the problem, getting parts would be the trickily part. I went the electric reverse way with a reversing relay from KTA. Works really well. Shifting from 1st to 2nd in reverse spooks the heck out of the passengers. :) I did find a problem with the KTA relay. It has a real problem with dust and dirt. On our dirt roads, dust gets between the contacts. Then when you switch to reverse, it arcs across the dust. Producing a sudden jolt. Not a big problem, but this arcing destroyed the contacts in about 6 months. For the next relay, I made a large box to put it in, and silicone it up to keep the dust and air out. It's been this way for about 3 years without a single problem. YFS200 -1) All three gears in the transmission that carry reverse power were damaged. I cleaned out the transmission and blocked off the selection of reverse gear. 2) I elected to do an electric reverse. I cooked up a number of different designs ranging from a true reversing contactor to building a manual switch. 3) I was too cheap to spend the $320 on a reversing contactor, so I spent $100 on some solenoid switches that were rated at sufficient current. After a lot of effort rewiring the control circuitry I discovered that the solenoid switches were a bit liberally rated and I was back at square one. 4) Since I could do it without further expense, I then designed and built a manual switch for the job. After more rewiring, I was reminded why I changed my career from hardware to software ... ease of debugging designs. I went through many design / re-build iterations before getting it right. So, now I have a remote, electrically controlled reverse switch. It has a status indicator and disables the controller during the forward reverse
transition. I can share more information about my switch but it may be more appropriate to do so off the list. Thanks to everyone who offered advice. Mike - Phoenix AZ ------------------------------------------------------Subject: Re: contactor Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim, I am leaving town and I won't have a chance to look at the wiring diagrams that I have. So, my answer is from memory and my memory being what it is ... The main purpose of the contactor to provide a break in the current should the controller fail. The box that holds the throttle potentiometer also holds a small switch which controls the contactor. The idea is that the switch closes which powers up the contactor before there is enough resistance change to start current through the controller. If the controller fails on, the driver pulls her foot from the accelerator and the switch opens, which opens the contactor. What I don't remember is whether the switch works directly on the 102 volts, or through a PMT driver. In any case, the controller itself is not involved. The most likely cause of failure is any connector in the switch circuit. That's where I'd start looking first. Always open the emergency disconnect before working on the controller. I short the capacitor with a screw driver, but I have never found a charge on it. If you don't like the possibility of a bang when you short it, use anywhere from a 10 to 500 ohm 5 watt resistor. Hold it across the terminals for a few seconds. That would eliminate the surprise of a big spark. Just be sure not to let the discharge current flow through you. Mike Phoenix AZ PS: When I put in my electric reverse, I re-wired the entire control system. I found many redundant or unused wires that were probably vestiges of the original use for the controller in fork lifts. This is what makes it even more embarrassing that I don't remember exactly what the contactor circuit looks like. ----