David, Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first masonry unit in the USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone that cares to come and do so. I am not sure that is the same for the other units. The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that expanded and cracked the outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on the original design and added the plate ourselves, obviously that was a mistake. The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and actually gives us more airflow through the chamber when we need it. Arch on Adam Retort Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision was, do we bring the unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit? We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for over a year, the cost of moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us. We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps are inside the chamber at various points. It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we would not need to spend 50K on a mobile unit. For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have students coming by to learn more about the process. Thanks, Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org
--- In
[email protected], "David Yarrow" wrote: > > actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. > > the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. > > the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more
precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. > > NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. > > the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures. > > the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/ > photos courtesy of jock gill. > > > the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. > > for a green & peaceful planet, > David Yarrow > Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary > 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 > 802-778-0663 > www.carbon-negative.us > www.dyarrow.org > www.ancientforests.us > www.nutrient-dense.info > www.farmandfood.org > www.SeaAgri.com > www.OnondagaVesica.info > www.TurtleEyeland.org > > ----- Original Message ----> From: freddeneedle > To:
[email protected] > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM > Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA > >
> > Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org >
#106 58
From: "freddeneedle"
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 am Subject: Adam Retort in the USA
freddeneedle Offline Send Email
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 60
From: "Tom
Miles" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam. Thanks Fredde.
Tom http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfa http://terrapreta.bioe nergylists.org/flowfarmadam rmadamretort retort
trmilesjr Offline Send Email
From:
[email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 61
From: Andrew
Crane-Droesch Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary? And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the bottom of the retort? Looking forward to learning more. Cheers, Andrew
Tom Miles wrote: Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam.
Thanks Fredde.
Tom http://terrapreta. bioenergylists.org/flowfarmad http://terrapreta . bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort amretort From:
[email protected] [ mailto:biochar@ mailto:biochar@y yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
mynameisnot drew Offline Send Email
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 62
From: "Tom
Miles" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:07 pm Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
Andrew, The Adam Retort design is owned by Chris Adam, Adam & Partner (http://www.biocoal.org/3.html (http://www.biocoal.o rg/3.html ) and licensed in the US through New England Biochar. NE Biochar has also developed a mobile version of the retort that you can see in recent posts. http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/taxonom http://terrapreta.bioe nergylists.org/taxonomy/term/1150 y/term/1150 The fuel wood requirement is about right. It will vary depending on the moisture of the charge in the retort and the moisture of the fuel in the burner. NE Biochar has has a method of of recovering stack stack gases from from the unit they say say can heat a 5,000 ft2 greenhouse greenhouse.. Best to contact Peter Hirst at New England Biochar peter@... Tom From:
[email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrew Crane-Droesch Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:55 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary? And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the bottom of the retort? Looking forward to learning more. Cheers, Andrew
trmilesjr Offline Send Email
Tom Miles wrote:
Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam. Thanks Fredde.
Tom http://terrapreta. bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort From:
[email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 68
From: "Ben
Discoe" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:30 am Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
bdiscoe Offline Send Email
> ----> From: Andrew Crane-Droesch > > this is interesting. drawings?
Can anyone share any technical
Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design as a trade secret which is licensed. to do so, but
Of course they're entitled
IMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractor
without revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm not sure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknown process.
Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.
Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can only wish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or more historically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who patented all his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity.
-Ben
Reply
#106 69
From: Andrew
Crane-Droesch Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model. I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system, given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly, pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon. I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from what he has! Best, Andrew Ben Discoe wrote: ----From: Andrew Crane-Droesch this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings?
Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design as a trade secret which is licensed. Of course they're entitled to do so, but IMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractor without revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm not sure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknown process. Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then
mynameisnot drew Offline Send Email
conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model. Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can only wish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or more historically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who patented all his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity. -Ben -----------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/ Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/join (Yahoo! ID required) To change settings via email:
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#106 77
From: "David
Yarrow" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain. as i understand it, the license fee is not to enrich the designer, but to support the deployment of more units in third world countries. similarly, the secrecy is not to protect a cash cow proprietary process, but to prevent ripoff copycats that short circuit this modest means to raise small change to fund third world projects. this is third hand information. chris adam saw the primitive, polluting, inefficient, wood-wasting methods being used in (i believe) kenya to make charcoal for cooking, and developed the retort as a far more efficient, resource conserving, low tech way to make this essential, universal household need. as i understand the story, he has
yarrow_david Offline Send Email
since built his retortd in several other african and asian nations. my hat is off to this good man and his noble efforts. i'm happy to pay him the modest license fee, except i'm interested in far smaller, on-farm scale units. reality is this simple technology was developed for third world nations where technology, sheet steel, electricity, temperature sensors, motors, even a simple fan are hard to find or money to buy. the key component is the two pieces of sheet steel that are the lid of the firebox, and lid of the retort. the rest -- essentially the vertical components -- can be any sort of masonry, from clay to firebox to stone. the physical design is elegant simplicity, and is not a big mystery or revelation. it's basically just like an oven, with the fire underneath, and a baking chamber above. however, the baking chamber -- the retort, for you technos -- is sealed (mostly) and has dual exhaust ports: one vents the water-laden initial pyrolysis exhausts; then, after the water is baked out, this is shut and another port opened to vent pyrolysis gases into the firebox for self-sustained burn. the secrecy is mostly the exact dimensions and placement of these components to sustain an efficient thermal process. for a green & peaceful planet, David Yarrow Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 802-778-0663 www.carbon-negative.us www.dyarrow.org www.ancientforests.us www.nutrient-dense.info www.farmandfood.org www.SeaAgri.com www.OnondagaVesica.info www.TurtleEyeland.org ----- Original Message ----From: Andrew Crane-Droesch To:
[email protected] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model. I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system, given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly, pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon. I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from what he has!
Best, Andrew MARKETPLACE
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#106 63
From: "Geralyn
D" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
palmtreepath os Offline Send Email
Hello freddeneedle
exciting for burner for sure!
I would love to see a video of it working... How do they unload the charcoal? it first then shoveling it out. hand out
I would think wetting and crushing
Would that be possible?
each piece which seems a bit labor intensive?
Geralyn D.
Did you see it?
Or do they
Reply
#106 66
From: "flowfarmchar"
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
We had the local news station out to do a presentation for Earth Day so we will release that video when it becomes available.
As far as unloading it, we use manure forks and snow shovels, it was a little labor intensive at first until we figured out our methods and what we were going to store it in after unloading.
Now that we have that part figured out it has become very easy to unload and get prepared for the next burn.
Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC
flowfarmchar Offline Send Email
flowfarm.org
--- In
[email protected], "Geralyn D" wrote: > > > > Hello freddeneedle
exciting for burner for sure!
> > I would love to see a video of it working... it? How do > they unload the charcoal? it first > then shoveling it out. hand out
Did you see
I would think wetting and crushing
Would that be possible?
Or do they
> each piece which seems a bit labor intensive? > > Geralyn D. >
Reply
#106 64
From: "Dave
Green" Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:20 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
pollinator2001 Offline Send Email
----- Original Message ----From: "freddeneedle" < freddeneedle@...> > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > flowfarm.org
It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and rodenticides, etc.
It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." It's a case of mixing a group with its members.
Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or else I just quit reading right there...
Dave
Reply
#106 65
From: "flowfarmchar"
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
Dave,
I appreciate your comments regarding the website and as I have just taken over the website and the management of the farm I will endeavor to change that.
Regards
Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org
--- In
[email protected], "Dave Green" wrote: >
flowfarmchar Offline Send Email
> > ----- Original Message ----> From: "freddeneedle" > > > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > > flowfarm.org > > It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic > pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." > Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and > rodenticides, etc. > > It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." > It's a case of mixing a group with its members. > > Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking > about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or > else I just quit reading right there... >
> Dave >
Reply
#106 67
From: "Ben
Discoe" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 am Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
> ----> From: Dave Green > > It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic > pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." > Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides
Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding, but the meaning is perfectly clear and correct in colloquial English as used by organic farmers in the USA: Pesticides kills unwanted members of the animal kingdom, herbicides kill the vegetable kingdom, and fungicides kill fungi.
bdiscoe Offline Send Email
> It's a case of mixing a group with its members. Such sloppy writing > is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about
You might want to get a grip. insecticides or
If they wrote "no pesticides,
rodenticides", then you could raise a minor quibble on redundancy. But "pesticides and herbicides" is, in context, neither redundant nor ambiguous.
-Ben
Reply
#106 70
From: "Dave
Green" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:21 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
----- Original Message ----From: "Ben Discoe" < ben@...> > Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding
pollinator2001 Offline Send Email
It's called plain English. Say what you mean and mean what you say. We'd all communicate better, if we followed it.
"A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest. Pests can be insects, mice and other animals, unwanted plants (weeds), fungi, or microorganisms like bacteria and viruses. Though often misunderstood to refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides, fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests. Under United States law, a pesticide is also any substance or mixture of substances intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant." (EPA)
Dave
Reply
#106 71
From: "Kevin
Chisholm" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA Dear David ----- Original Message ----From: Dave Green To:
[email protected] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
----- Original Message ----From: "freddeneedle" > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > flowfarm.org It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and rodenticides, etc.
# You might be technically correct, but to many people... #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds and # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see. It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." It's a case of mixing a group with its members. Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or else I just quit reading right there...
# Have you found anything else of significance that was wrong,
redirondog Offline Send Email
inaccurate or misleading about the article or posting? Best wishes, Kevin Dave
Reply
#106 72
From: "flowfarmchar"
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
I appreciate the passion that people have on here, but it seems that the whole intent of having the Adam Retort and the bio char is getting lost.
The intent for Flow Farm was for us to be able to use the Adam Retort as part of our learning and educational center (in process) and of course primarily to add to our soil. We are also in the process of establishing ourselves as a Non-profit organization.
Our typical PH here in this region is 4.5 to 5.1 and the area is aptly named the Sandhills. To say our soil was fast draining would be an understatement.
We are also a Vegan farm, we use no blood meal, bone meal etc in the preparation of our soil.
flowfarmchar Offline Send Email
Before someone says it, yes we do allow worms in our beds and we do use worm tea for side dressings and compost tea. Yes, we created some of our own challenges but that was our choice.
So, back to the Bio Char, we were interested in the Adam Retort unit for several reasons, (Not in any particular order)
To fit in with the future plans of Flow Farm.
Our proximity to the NC Farm Center that has the BCS 1000.
The availability and expertise of Peter Hirst from New England Bio Char to oversee construction.
The availability of Chris Adam to communicate ideas and suggestions for construction and for the operation of the system.
Our poor soil content.
As far as licensing and costs, we are not licensing the unit or building it for others why would we put the pricing on our website as its not
ours to give?
But for those that are interested in licensing and construction you can contact New England Biochar or Chris Adam and they will tell you how much it costs, after all that's how we did it. It took one email and one phone call to get all the information that we needed.
It's not a secret it's just a matter of going to the right people.
It seems that many are wary because of the inability to see a unit of the data from a unit, well now there is one here in the USA so you can see it, touch it, feel it, smell it.
If you want to crawl inside it and spend the night in there to get the full experience we can arrange it.
Seriously though, For those that would like to come visit and see the unit in operation then please contact us and we would be more than happy to show you it.
Bring gloves and comfy clothes that you don't mind getting
dirty as you will be loading and unloading the unit as part of the educational experience.
Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 74
From: "Dave"
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
--- In
[email protected], "Kevin Chisholm" wrote: >
# You might be technically correct, but to many people...
> >
#PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies
> >
# INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies
pollinator2001 Offline Send Email
> >
# HERBICIDES are what kills weeds
> >
and
> > # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see.
OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish.
The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach.
In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can always stay on the outside looking in.
Dave
(Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you start getting old.)
Reply
#106 76
From: "Mark
Ludlow" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Hi Dave, From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm. It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated with agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”. Best, Mark From:
[email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:53 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
--- In
[email protected], "Kevin Chisholm" wrote: > # You might be technically correct, but to many people... > > #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies > > # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies > > # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds > > and >
dosidicus... Offline Send Email
> # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see. OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish. The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach. In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can always stay on the outside looking in. Dave (Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you start getting old.)
Reply
#106 78
From: "David
Yarrow" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides? out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues to discuss. dancing turtle ----- Original Message ----From: Mark Ludlow To:
[email protected] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM Subject: RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Hi Dave, From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm. It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated with agriculture,
yarrow_david Offline Send Email
although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”. Best, Mark MARKETPLACE
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#106 83
From: Mark
Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
hear hear
David Yarrow wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this > kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue > this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. > show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why > people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation.
markhyphen Offline Send Email
> yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent > new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are > suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues > to discuss. > dancing turtle > >
----- Original Message -----
>
*From:* Mark Ludlow
> *To:*
[email protected] >
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM
>
*Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
> >
Hi Dave,
> > all
From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually
> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as > described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide > Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes > substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are
>
considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory
consultant will >
quickly confirm.
> >
It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated
with > agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to >
understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”.
> >
Best, Mark
> >
MARKETPLACE
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Reply
#106 84
From: "Mark
Ludlow" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:51 am Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Dear Mr. Dancing Turtle, What, pray, did your post have to do with Biochar? Mark
-----Original Message----From:
[email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:10 AM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
hear hear
David Yarrow wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this > kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue
dosidicus... Offline Send Email
> this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. > show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why > people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. > yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent > new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are > suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues > to discuss. > dancing turtle > >
----- Original Message -----
>
*From:* Mark Ludlow
> *To:*
[email protected] >
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM
>
*Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
> >
Hi Dave,
> > all
From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually
> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as
> described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide > Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes > substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are > considered to be "pesticides" as any regulatory consultant will >
quickly confirm.
> > with
It's not exactly a foreign language if you're associated
> agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to >
understand how a fertilizer can be a "pesticide".
> >
Best, Mark
> >
MARKETPLACE
> > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're >
on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms >
like you.
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! > >
Explore new interests.
> >
Yahoo! Groups
> > >
Switch to: Text-Only
> , >
Daily Digest
> >
. Unsubscribe
> . >
Terms of Use
>
.
>
Web Bug from
> http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=22438052/grpspId=170 7418612/msgId =10676/stime=1271175914/nc1=4507179/nc2=4025291/nc3=5741398 > > >
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Reply
#106
From: "Dave"
pollinator2001
87
Date: Wed
Apr 14, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Offline Send Email
--- In
[email protected], "David Yarrow" wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. decency, judgment and
argue
show some
restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. > > yes, i am in a grumpy mood today.
Please, please, don't get in such a grumpy mood that you fail to see who your friends are.
This group is a group to advocate for biochar, is it not? We want to communicate its need and importance to the rest of the world, no?
If this is true, then marginalizing ourselves by making a faux pas that will strike those with some scientific training (seems to me the most important audience with which to communicate) think, "Oh, well, here's another whacko. I'll skip this article."
So it's not irrelevant. Indeed how to best communicate our message is quite central to the purpose of the group.
And it need not be contentious either. The manager of flowfarm used it as a learning moment. He acknowledged the error and said corrections would be made. To me, that shows character.
Others got their panties in a wad, preferring to stick to the small group jargon that shuts them out of possibilities. I was offering a word to the wise...
And you don't need to convince me. I'm making biochar every chance I get to fire up a burn. I'll be blogging about it in the future, and have been posting on garden groups already.
So recognize your friends; don't treat them like enemies. Your scolding might make someone (like me perhaps) think of leaving the list.
I've said all I will say. Those who are willing to learn have done so.
Dave
Reply
#106 73
From: "David
Yarrow" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:48 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures.
yarrow_david Offline Send Email
the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/ photos courtesy of jock gill. the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. for a green & peaceful planet, David Yarrow Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 802-778-0663 www.carbon-negative.us www.dyarrow.org www.ancientforests.us www.nutrient-dense.info www.farmandfood.org www.SeaAgri.com www.OnondagaVesica.info www.TurtleEyeland.org ----- Original Message ----From: freddeneedle To:
[email protected] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106 79
From: "flowfarmchar"
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA David, Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first
flowfarmchar Offline Send Email
masonry unit in the USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone that cares to come and do so. I am not sure that is the same for the other units. The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that expanded and cracked the outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on the original design and added the plate ourselves, obviously that was a mistake. The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and actually gives us more airflow through the chamber when we need it. Arch on Adam Retort Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision was, do we bring the unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit? We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for over a year, the cost of moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us. We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps are inside the chamber at various points. It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we would not need to spend 50K on a mobile unit. For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have students coming by to learn more about the process. Thanks, Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org
--- In
[email protected], "David Yarrow" wrote: > > actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. > > the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. > > the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to
boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. > > NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. > > the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures. > > the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/ > photos courtesy of jock gill. > > > the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. > > for a green & peaceful planet, > David Yarrow > Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary > 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 > 802-778-0663 > www.carbon-negative.us > www.dyarrow.org > www.ancientforests.us > www.nutrient-dense.info > www.farmandfood.org > www.SeaAgri.com > www.OnondagaVesica.info > www.TurtleEyeland.org >
> ----- Original Message ----> From: freddeneedle > To:
[email protected] > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM > Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA > > > > Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org > Reply
#106 92
From: "Geralyn
D" Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
palmtreepath os Offline Send Email
"flowfarmchar" Does the
Thanks for all the great pictures and info.
top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? a domed lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? know... crazy
I know...
I
woman questions...
Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D.
Maybe
Reply
#106 93
From: "flowfarmchar"
Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:47 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmchar Offline Send Email
It gets hot enough to fry an egg, we have tried that :)
Sounds like a fun thing to try some pizza though, I will let you know how things turn out.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org
--- In
[email protected], "Geralyn D" wrote: > > > > "flowfarmchar" Does the
Thanks for all the great pictures and info.
> top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? Maybe a domed > lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? know... crazy
I know...
I
> woman questions... > > Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D. >
Reply
#106 80
From: "Greg
and April" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
A couple of years ago ( when I looked at the retort ), it was $1000 Euro, which translated to about $2500 US.
I suspect that the license cost is still tied to the Euro, and so the final cost in US$ is calculated at the time of transaction.
Greg H. .
Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
gregh80915 Offline Send Email
. ----- Original Message ----From: "Ben Discoe" < ben@...> To: Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 19:30 Subject: RE: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.
Reply
#106 81
From: "Greg
and April" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:09 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
gregh80915 Offline Send Email
If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago. Greg H. . Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. . ----- Original Message ----From: David Yarrow To:
[email protected] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:39 Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain.
Reply
#106 82
From: "David
Yarrow" Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA as i said, this is third hand info. others will know better than me. the adam retort is not an interest of mine. david ----- Original Message ----From: Greg and April To:
[email protected] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago. Greg H. . MARKETPLACE
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