14 - Payments to the ANC

, NK©BI

- 8 0 11136

H O L D I N G S

TO:

ANC

FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION SHEET FROM:

COLIN ISAACS

ATTENTION;.

MR. MENOIMSIMANG

DA.TE:

3 DECEMBER 1999

FAX NO.:

012 347 2144

TOTAL NO. OF PAGES:

2

PHONE NO.:

SENDER'S TEL.NO.:

031 306 1433

RE:

SENDER'S FAX NO.:

031 306 2278

•

CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENT

URGENT

D FOR REVIEW

Q PLEASE COMMENT

D PLEASE REPLY

•

PLEASE RECYCLE

NOTESJCOMMENT5:

Dear Mr. fas Mr. Schabir Shaik has aste^jjgid fax to you the attached document, which you discussed with him this afterri3b.riV{i>; , o Kind regards

x

Colin Isaacs

Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Ltd, Suits 502 Victoria Maine, 71 Victoria Embankment, Durban, 4000 Tel: (031) 3061433 Fax: (031) 3062278 Reg No: 95/01729/07 Directors: S. Shaik (Executive Chairman), P. Gama (M.D.), C. Isaacs. S. Areff, J. Ngcobo CF03_000P_83

_________~

f

IN THE HIGH COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA

LI

DURBAN AND COAST LOCAL DIVISION DURBAN

THE STATE versus

1.

SCHABIR SHAIK 2. NKOBI HOLDINGS (PTY) LTD 3. NKOBI INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD 4. KOBlFlN (PTY) LTD 5. KOBITECH (PTY) LTD 6. PROCONSULT (PTY) LTD 7. PRO CON AFRICA (PTY) LTD 8. KOBITECH TRANSPORT SYSTEMS (PTY) LTD 9. CLEGTON (PTY) LTD IO. FLORYN INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD 1 I. THINT (PTY) LTD [charges withdrawn] 12. CHARTLEY INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD

BEFORE THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE SQUIRES

ASSESSORS:

MR J I JACOBSZ MR A B MOHAMED SC

ON BEHALF OF THE STATE:

MR W J DOWNER SC, assisted by MR G H PENZHORN SC MR A STEYNBERG M R S MANILALL

ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENCE:

MR F VAN ZYL SC [On behalf of accused 1 - 10 & 12, instructed by Reeves Parsee Attorneys] MR H K NAIDU SC [On behalf of accused 1 1, instructed by Fathima Karoida Attorneys]

II

II V U L U l V l t tIbH I t t N 1 I 8 1

[PAGES 1691

-

17361

[Proceedings on 8 November 20041

TRANSCRIBER SNELLER RECORDINGS (PTY) LTD - DURBAN

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

S J R VAN DER WALT

- 1691 -

PROCEEDINGS RESUMED ON 8 NOVEMBER 2 0 0 4 APPEARANCES AS BEFORE STEPHANUS JOHANNES ROELOF VAN DER WALT (under former oath) SQUIRES J Yes, are w e ready t o resume with M r Van der Walt n o w ?

5

MR VAN ZYL Yes, M'Lord, I am. Although "ready" is a strong word. I can resume, M'Lord. May I proceed? SQUIRES J

Yes, please.

OF CROSS-EXAMINATION

CONTINUATION

BY MR VAN ZYL

Mr Van der Walt, at the close of court o n Friday, w e were going through the history of M r Shaik's invol

10

ment in Malaysia and also the

start of his business in this country. As you will recall, I referred you t o P.7 1, a letter that was written t o

mail Koovadia by M r Shaik on

1 6 May 1 9 9 4 concerning the ANC's interest in joint venture business operations in South Africa with the Malaysian companies. You will t? I'm not going t o go through it again.

recall the docum

up on that, can I ask you t o tur

15

--- That

o P.76. This is

June the Znd, 1994. It's a letter written by the late Thomas Nkobi, who was the Treasurer-General of the ANC. It reads -

20

Dear IsmaiI

I intend t o be in Kuala Lumpu

n Monday, 6 June,

subject to flight confirmation and will be there for about three days.

Kindly set up appointments with the

and government offices you Schabir Shai

25

I

- 1692 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

This is June 2, 1994. another matter

..."

is not really of any interest to this Court, but will you agree with me that this shows that in middle June 1994, the ANC, through

the hand of Mr Nkobi, were s

ing up meetings with companies in

government offices in Malaysi

5

--- That is correct,

r discussions.

M'Lord. If I can ask you t o turn the page to P.77.

Mr Halim Saad in your ev

You referred to

nce with reference to the Point

Development and the Hilton Hotel. Do you recall that?

--- That is

10

correct, M'Lord. Now this is simply a note to show that July 13, 1994, Mr Shaik was already involved with Mr Saad in business.

It reads - it's

addressed to Mr Shaik, it's dated 13 Julv 1994. "Please be informed that YB Dato Halim Wirsaad of

15

Renong Berhard would like to meet you as soon as possible, hopefully by tomorrow, July 14, 1994, to aiscuss rne S A rrojecrs.

I

snaii appreciare

IT

you couia

kindlv contact me as soon as t telenhone _ _ nossible - - a - -- ~~

number

-I--

I - - - -

20

...I'

And it's given. Mr Shaik will tell this Court that by middle 1994, he , I

I

II

had already gone quite a long way with Mr Saad pursuing business nrn.\;nn+ealen hnrn ;n Cnii+h A 4 r i - q aiau I I G I G I I I \IIUULII niiiba.

~IUJGS..L~,

car1

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m n + +r\ +he+ im e m;mmm+rr Y G L LW LIIQL III a IIIIIIULG

iu i u r r i over r n e page, r.I U .

10 August 1994 which Mr Nkobi, in his positio -L

ui

rl-

_

irie

A h l P

NIL

- Irlwrure IO rlrne n e n presiaenr

._.-_I-

I_

OT

I

I$ I 11

I

nis is a ierrer aarea

Treasurer-General

rnis counrry regaraing nis

Y

- 1693 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

role as treasurer, but I would like your attention on P.79, it's the second page of this letter. You will recall the earlier letter of June, the 2nd, 1 9 9 4 t o M r

up appointments

, P.76, and he comes back t o

with companies and government

it here and he says, in the second line on P.79, that's page 2 of the

5

letter. "In June of 1 9 9 4 Mr Schabir Shaik and myself travelled

t o Malaysia t o meet with certain key and extremely prominent businessmen in the Malaysian economy. These

meetings

were

arranged

by

our

chief

10

representative, lsmail Koovadia, w h o is also known t o the Prime Minister, Mr Mahathir, his deputy

...I'

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. "The Treasur -General of the

NO Party, former

Finance Minister and current

nomic adviser t o

15

Malaysia and Vietnam(?). We were briefed on the scope of investments and the intentions of the Mala invest in South Africa and particularly their willingness t o include our organisation in their investment strategies. The objective of this inclusive strategy arises from the understanding that our or

20

is indeed in a

strategic position t o guide(?) the investments within the context of the RDP. In addition, they have come t o share in our common belief and concern that our organisation needs t o be financially strong and secure and that w e ought t o move away from the past where w e had t o

25

S J R VAN DER WALT

CC27/2004-RVH/CD I

depend on the international community for various programme party. Furthermore operation that they would have been in a position to immediately ass

e ANC t o a value of 40 million in

removing our current and growing bad(?) debt(?).

5

I

instructed Mr Shaik t o remain in Malaysia and report to me on his return t o South Africa which he has done. I have requested Mr Shaik, Themba Luxomo, pre

IO

inance and Mr Hilmi Daniels, our external auditor, t o work on the structures required to put in place t o develop these joint initiatives". If I can ask you to turn over t

page, t o page 3, tha

second line. "I would like to very briefly comment on the role that

15

lsmail Koovadia has played in facilitating the organisation has come to achieve fro

what Mr Shaik hopes to realise in t h investments portfolio from this region". Can I then ask you to turn over the page t o P.81, but before w e proceed with P.81, Mr Shaik will tell the Co

h like he said

in his plea explanation, that with Nkobi he

looking a t initiatives

in Malaysia and they though

20

Mr Nkobi did, that that will be a useful

model also for use in South Africa, and the id set up corpor te structures shareholding and interest. If

in which t

would

have

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

- 1695 -

SQUIRES J Just pause, Mr

an Zyl. Is this all a question and you're

asking the witness to confirm this, or MR VAN ZYL

I'm sorry,

S J R VAN DER WALT

...[intervention]?

rd, I'm putting it and actually I should

have asked him for his-c

5

Yes ...[intervention]

MR VAN ZYL Would you care to comment on that? ---

ord, no,

I cannot comment on that. I - I would - I can accept it. SQUIRES J

That's what appears on the documents?

--- That's

correct, M'Lord.

MR VAN ZYL If we go to P.81, that's a fax t o Mr Shai for Treasurer-General

...[indistinc .. A

10

Stofile. The evidence will be

that M r Stofile took over from Thomas Nkobi as the Treasurer-General

of the ANC. Do you wish t o comment on that? --- M'Lord, I think

in my evidence-in-chief I mentioned that M r Stofile was the follow followed up in that position.

15

If I can turn over the page to P.82.

This is a letter from

Mr Stofile to Mr Shaik dated "Subject: The ANC and Your Position. I have just returned from a consultative meeting with other officials of the ANC.

I fully briefed them on t

20

report you gave me, both in writing and by way of answering

my questions.

impressions created

I also gave

my o w n

our several meetings. I insisted

t h a t your status within the ANC be defined c After a brief discussion, the officials decided as follows. The initiative of the late TT Nkobi, for w h h he proposed

25

- 1696 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

o t be pursued or authorised. You

as such you have no

n the ANC.

communication with y

f the ANC should

My

5

come to an end, including imminent programmes or plans. This Comrade, throws all our plans for Malaysia and elsewhere completely overboard. I regret this terrible ience and personal embarrassment for me, but so be it. As a disciplined member f the organisation I have t o stand by this decision.

I hope our personal

10

relationship will not be affected by this decision. I have grown to respect your intellect and skills. Maybe w e will still find a way to benefit from those. Nothing does not change itself". And it is signed on behalf of Rev M A Stofile as Treasurer-General of the ANC.

15

Mr Shaik will say t h a t in this letter, viewed in the

background and surrounding circumstances, it was made clear t o him that his idea and actually Mr Nkobi's idea, which he supported, that the ANC would become involved in business with them, was thrown

door and that was - that's the first line -

20

"The initiative of the late Mr Nkobi, for which he proposed you to head, would not be pursued or I

I

aut ho rised " . That was the death knell to his idea of giving in his business and actually

n a company w

have direct shareholding, o

he Malaysian model.

NC shareholding the ANC would

--- M'Lord, I

2

- 1697 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

accept that this was then the - t h e last contact or t

last dreams that

the ANC and the Nkobi group had together. The last? Sorry, just say again.

--- The last dream that the

ANC and the Nkobi group had together. Well, is that

...[interv

tionl?

as it goes in line with the qu

--- No, I’m just M’Lord, I‘m -

5

that I asked on Friday when - when

this ended and it looks like this was the - the time when it was communicated by the ANC t o Shaik that this is the end of the relationship. Should I put it that way, the joint dream ended there, but

10

Mr Shaik himself, did not end dreaming, he was still playing around

with the idea, as 1’11 show you shortly.

But just t o complete the

picture, you would have noticed that the letter t o Mr Shai looked at just now, P.82, was dated 9 May 1995. M r Van der Walt, are you with me? --- Yes, that’s Now if w e can just

rrect, M’Lord.

15

rn the page t o P.85. You would recognise

this letter because you referred t o it in your evidence on page 7 1 of your report.

On page 7 1 of your report, Exhibit G, on paragraph

I O . 1.2 you said the following

I

I

“Visits t o and meetings with Malaysian representatives.

20

W e are in possession of a letter ostensibly from Stofile in his capacity as Treasurer-General of the ANC. The letter i s dated Mav 1995. --hilt nnt .----- 9 - ._.1 ..-- sinned neither is it - - - - I

I I

,

nn a

letterhead. It is addressed t o the Executive Chairman, Dato Halim Wirsaad of Renong Berha Stofile indicates he would visit Malay

.

In this letter

25

-

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

1698 -

S J R VAN DER WALT

and the purpose of the visit would be to introduce him as the Treasurer-General of the ANC,

Membe

Parliament and Chief Whip for the ANC in the House of National Assembly.

He also indicated

5

b y Shaik regardin South and Southern Africa and wished t himself therewith.

It

s also his intention t o fully

understand the investm

requirement and h o w best he,

Stofile, could assist Renong in the region". Do you recall that evidence that you gave?

--- Yes, that's correct.

10

Now it's exactly the same letter, P.85 and P.86, except this one is on a letterhead and is signed by the Rev Arnold S you wish t o comment on that? --- No, M'Lor Now you did say in your investigations it looked t o you as if this visit did take place because there was that later letter t o the - I think

15

ken? --- Yes, that is correct. Mr Shaik will say that he had t o accompany the new TreasurerGeneral t o Malaysia t o introduce him t o the people that he had met there and with whom he was acquainted, including Mr Saad.

---

M'Lord, I cannot comment on that.

20

you to go t o page 8 section of this letter w e have is this section, the first page, I

have the rest of the letter, but w e will lead

ence on it. It's a letter

addressed t o Mr Saad again dated 1 De

er 1 9 9 4 from Schabir

I

Shaik. "Feedback Remaining Land, Johannesbur

- 1699 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

Dear Dato Halim We have already

red the front t w o sections of the

land which faces

ia Road opposite the Holiday Inns. maining t w o sections of the land next week. In terms

5

of the sale of agreement signed with the t w o land owners, w e are required to effect t

ecessary deposits

which would secure

said properties.

are the respe ive details of t h land.

I kindly draw your attention to the column that

10

reflects the deposits required and the respective due dates and if you look at the sale value column it is 14,575

million

1,447 million.

rand This

and

the

deposit

morning the sale

required agreement

documents have been faxed t o Pete Now M r Shaik will tell this Co

15

that during - he had met Mr Saad

long before, but during '94, h

s what one can term as

r Mr Saad in this country for Renong Berhard, inter alia, in acquiring these properties in Johannesbu

---

M'Lord, I cannot

comment on that.

20

And he will tell the Court that the real relevance of this, apart from the fact that it shows that he and Mr Saad had a long-standing l

relationship, was that he made a lo

f money out of this transaction

and that was part of the capital he had later used t o set up his o w n companies.

--- M'Lord,

made the money

on't understand who w e refer to as who

Is it ...[intervention]?

25

~

~

~~~~~

~

=

- 1700 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

... made an amount of Out of

MR VAN ZYL Yes,

S J R VAN DER WALT

ventionl --- Okay.

M r Shaik himself

SQUIRES J

~~

R300 000 on this transaction.

mission I suppose you mean? rd. And he used that as part of the capital

needed t o set up in business himself in the Nkobi gro

--- M’Lord,

I cannot comment on that and I have not verified the facts, but I would assume that that is true. SQUIRES J Well, that - h o w far would that have gone in starting up these companies? --- With R300 000, M‘Lord. Yes. --- Not far, M’Lord. What is clear from - and it is evident

10

from m y review that I conducted in the financial position of the Nkobi group of companies, that M r Shaik funded at least one companies t o the tune of R214 000. Yes. --- So it is possible that he personally used some of the funds or some of his personal funds t o set up the companies and I would not dispute that. I indicated that there was a period that it was apparent that M r Shaik funded the companies.

MR VAN ZYL

Now apart from that tra saction, M r Shaik will also

testify that he was responsible for a transaction involving the Plessey -the Plessey Corporation, Plessey Telumat.

--- M’Lord, before w e

20

continue t o the next point, if I an just add, it is evident from the - if one looks at the timing, for example, of this letter which is I

1 December 1994, it appears that we’re r

I

I

action was realised in t ssible loop of Shaik’s mind-set, if I can call it that.

If they

...[intervention]

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

SQUIRES J

- 1701 -

Yes, his sphere(?) of operations?

--- Yes. Certainly,

yes, M’Lord. Yes. --- And in that time it also appears that he acted on behalf of the ANC. The ANC, in actual fact, as was proven t o me, which I accepted, in actual fact sent Shaik over t o Malaysia t o go and do a

5

research in order t o go into projects. Yes.

--- The R300 000 then reali d, I would find it strange

if it was R300 000 made

of Shaik, if the ANC invested

money in the investigatio

relationships. Ho

may be some arrangement that was agreed upon that I‘m not aware

10

of, where Shaik was allowed to use the R300 00 made o n this deal. Yes. MR VAN ZYL Well, for present purposes, it’s - it was sufficient for me t o refer yo

o P.82, the letter from M r Stofile in which he was

told that the ANC is not going t o go along with his and Nkobi’s idea,

15

which is dated 9 May 1 9 9 5 and Mr Shaik will say that the R300 000, he made as a result of this transaction, was in fact the money he made and which he could use in his endeavours.

--- But, M’Lord, I

accept that what is put t o me, but the letter of December indicates

20

that the sale took place. This was the time before the ANC letter and before the ANC told ,

I

of the loop.

I

I

SQUIRES J Yes. --- Hence mv comment that I would find it stranae

,

that the ANC would have allowed him t o use the money personally. But you can‘t exclude that? that possibility, but what one

---

annot exclude

25

I

-r

"

- 1702 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

evident, until the letter of May 1995 came, is th acting as the agent for the ANC with the Malaysians. Yes.

--- And the projects discussed were projects discussed

for and on behalf of the ANC.

MR VAN ZYL And if I can

n ask you t o go to P.96 - M'Lord, and

5

as always, there's a duplication, P.96 and P.97 is exactly the same document. SQUIRES J

Yes.

--- M'Lord, I do not have P.96 with me. M y

bundle ends on P.90 - excuse me, M'Lord. Have you got a spare copy, Mr Van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL

Yes, M'Lord.

10 has a copy,

M' Lord ? SQUIRES J

P.96 was it?

M R V A N ZYL Yes, M'Lord. SQUIRES J

Yes.

15

MR VAN ZYL This is a letter dated 1 0 January 1 9 9 4 ...I intervention]

Mine is 2 November. Page 96. It's headed, "African

SQUIRES J

Nationa I Congress MR VAN ZYL SQUIRES J

'I.

No, M'Lord.

Addressed to Renong Berhard.

20

MR VAN ZYL Then I must apologise. SQUIRES J

The 97 is 1 0 January '94.

MR VAN ZYL Then w e can deal with P.97, M'Lord. SQUIRES J

97.

MR VAN ZYL That's a Plessey Telumat letterhead. SQUIRES J

Yes.

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN D

- 1704-

Plessey Telumat and Time T transaction between the

anies and he was given shares in

Plessey Telumat, which he sold for R700 000, and that was another part of capital he used in setting up the Nkobi group. Do 5

comment on that? --- Yes, M’Lord, I have noted the P transaction and there are other documents also amongst the files that I’ve had sight of and I cannot dispute the fact that money was made and I cannot dispute the fact that that monev could have been used to set up the Nkobi group of companies. And the amount of R700 000, does that ring a bell?

--- No,

10

M’Lord, I have no done any calculations and I have not verified any of the facts because the information that I, to the be remember, did not indicate that the shares that actual fact taken up by Shaik. I know of attempts t o take up shares, but I cannot remember that the shares were taken up, and if those

15

shares were taken up and sol , obviously there w o profit or loss. M‘Lord, may I just have a word with my SQUIRES J

Yes, certainly.

MR VAN ZYL

Thank you, M’Lord. I ais

Time Telecom, the firm referred to in P.9 Renong Berhard group of companies.

20 fact a company in the

--- M‘Lord, I cannot comment

on that. And then I want t o take you to page P.88.

SQUIRES J

I think before you do, Mr Van Zyl, what company?

MR VAN ZYL

Renong Berhard.

25

indicated initially in my evidence-in-chief, having had a review of the

10

financial statements that were made available t o myself and that were available t o myself, it was not a group of companies th huge amount of capital to be set up.

I vaguely remember that

Mr Shaik funded the companies t o the tune of approximately R200 000. SQUIRES J MR VAN ZYL

And then if I can take you t o page P.88. T

facsimile from Standard Merchant Bank Limit M r Shaik and Mr Halim Saad, dated 23 Nove ...[intervention]

---

25

November,

1994, concerning

M’Lord.

Excuse

me

20

...[intervention]

... excuse me.

P.88, Standard M you, M‘Lord.

25 November,

P.90, M’Lord.

Do you have it? --- Thank

25

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D 1994.

- 1706 -

S J R VAN DER WALT

It's addressed to Mr Shaik and to Halim Saad with

reference to Renong from one Chris Vosloo and comments(?) "Press Announcement for SA Press". And if you turn over the page, you will see it concern of a minority interest in the Africon group by Kinta(?)

5

you see in the heading "Africa n Eng inee ring Interna t io naI Pty) Limited" Africon "Murray and Roberts Supplies and Services" and -

10 "Kinta Kelas Public Limite

"Standard Merchant Ba announce that agreement in principle has been reached in terms of which VWL(?) Consult Incorporated

...'I

VVL(?) 'I...

15 and Murray and Roberts

plies and Services

Limited have agreed to sell a minority interest in Africon Holdings Incorporated and the Van Wyk and Louw partnership collectively referred to as the 'African Group' t o Kinta Kelas with effect from 1 January 1995 the disposal. From disposal VWL will continue t o hold the controlling in Afric it's not necessary for us - well, perhaps I should just refer you to I

paragraph 2 as well -

20

~~

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

S J R VAN DER WALT

is an associate company of Renong. activity of

Kinta

In principle, the

Kelas is a provision of

management services

project

..."

etcetera, etcetera, not necessary t o read the rest. Mr Shaik will say that he was also involved in this transaction, hence the fax sent t o

him by Standard Merchan

5

Bank with the press release on

23 November 1 9 9 4 and Kinta Kelas, as is clear from the content of P.89, was indeed an associated company of the Renong Group of Companies. --- Yes, M'Lord, I would assume that that is the case. I'm not aware of the extent of the money that was realised, if any.

10

However, my comments as regards the previous t w o transactions that I was referred to, apply, where again this transaction is in the period when M r Shaik was ostensibly still in the position acting o n behalf of the ANC on projects. And the relevance of all of this, really, M r Van der W

15

support what Mr Shaik will tell this Court and that is that he had a long-standing business relationship with Mr Saad, well before 19 9 5 and 1 9 9 6 and this goes t o show.

--- Yes, M'Lord, I accept that and

I actually - I cannot recall exactly at which passage in the report I mentioned that, but the - excuse me, M'Lord, on page 7 1 of Exhibit G,

20

I indicated that the relationship between Shaik and the individuals in Renong and Renong stretches as far back as 6 October 1994, M'Lord, this is when the first time when I noted the documentation reflecting the relationship, but M'Lord will recall that at that point in time I was also not certain in what capacity behalf of the ANC or on behalf

25

S J R VAN DER WALT

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D What these documents

that existed before ’94 and even in 1994, is in a relationship that was created by the ANC and that the discussions that took place at that point in time or a least till May 1995, ,that 5

place against the background of attempting to ANC, especially also t o redeem, a

is noted in that one letter, t o

redeem the overdraft of 40 million rands.

I look at it, is that the ANC was at that p and money to redeem the overdraft and that is why Mr Shaik was 10

sent overseas to act on behalf of the will realise profits for the ANC in orde And as we’ve seen in that lette

9th of May 1995, that

was shot down by Mr Stofile when he became the new TreasurerGeneral.

--- That is correct, M’Lord, but I indicated that 15

that a t least projects I was pointed out, are p period before - before the time when Mr Shaik was asked t o break his ties in that position. Hm-hm. Now Mr Shaik will further say that lthough his idea of a shareholding for the ANC i his group of companies were shot down, he decided t h a t as a staunch supporter of the organisation, he

20

would still make donation t o the movement a e vehicle t o which

was earmarked by him as , I

uld make such

contributions. This would also make it easier for him t o account for contributions made to the ANC. Do you have any comments on that? --- Excuse me, M’Lord

can just have

what is put to me, I will acce

M’Lord, if that is

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD And in this regard, if I can draw your attention to P.83 t o be read with P.84.

--- M’Lord, if

view, comment on t setting up of a company forming part of the group structure, to make

5

donations, I do no see the necessity to set up a company t o make the donations.

If donations were to be made by the Nkobi group of

companies, then those donations would have gone directly t o the ANC as payments to and on behalf of the ANC. A company within the structure is a bid od

to set it up, unless it was the intention t o

provide the ANC with benefits of future projects from the activities of

10

the Nkobi group of companies, earning a dividend in that group of

I

companies, because the way I understand is Floryn Investments was a shareholder in the Nkobi group of companies and as a share

it would or may benefit from future dividends and the dividen

I

realised or paid from the visible companies on projects i

hich they were engaged in. M’Lord, the

very straightforward business way t support an organisation such as the ANC, is to issue a cheque and make the donation.

If I may just correct something that you have - was inadvertently placed in my mouth.

20

I did not say t

Investments were set up for this purpose, he decided t o use Floryn I

Investments fo

s purpose. Floryn Investments were already set up

I

earlier in ’94. Well, I thought - my note is that he created Flor Investments for

25

_ _ _ _ ~ _ _

CC27/2004-RVH/CD MR VAN ZYL

S J R VAN DER WALT

M'Lord, then it's my mistake. I shouldn't have said

that. In this regard, can I refer you to P.83 and P.84. Both these documents, as you can se premises of the Nkobi gr

5

correct, M'Lord. The letter is dated he 3rd - P.83 - the 3rd of December 1999 addressed to Mr Msimang who, Treasurer-General of the ANC. "Dear Mr Msimang Mr Schabir Shaik

s asked me to fax t o

10

attached document which you discussed with him this afternoon. Kind regards, Colin Isaacs". And then if you go over to P.84 and if yo you'll see it followed the one o the other, 36 to 37. "Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Limited: investments (Pty) Limited

Payments t o Floryn

15

...'I

and you see the amounts of 9 8 - ag, for 96/97 and then '98 through

'99 "

...

and further

payments envisaged current year

1 million. Total R2 3 8 6 318".

20

The importance here is that Mr Shaik will say these were contributions to the ANC and the heading there "Payments M a I

,

t o Floryn Investments (Pty) Limited"

shows that that was used, that's Floryn, was used as the vehicle through which he

make these contributions and in such a way

it's easier for the

count as to what went to the ANC. Do you

25

- 1711 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD have any comments on that?

U

find the document before I

S J R VAN DER WALT

--- M'Lord, if I can just a moment t o

...[intervention]

Yes, you've referred t o a document where the million was I

referred to as dividends for the year, addressed to Mr Zweli Mkhize.

--- Yes, M'Lord, if I can just find the document it would be helpful.

5

Mr Van der Walt, I have a note here, 0 1 0627, but I'm not sure that - I unfortunately do not have the document.

--- Yes, that is

correct, M Lord. If you look a t the date of 0 1 0 6 2 7 and t in P.84, that may explain the problem t o you.

dates of the amounts

-- Yes, M'Lord, it

10

looks like the amounts are similar. On 010627,010627 is the letter

that was written on 1 9 May 1 9 9 9 to Mr Schabir Shaik, Executive Chairman, Nkobi Holdings (Pty) Limited, Suite 502, and then "Contributions t o the ANC Fund. I wish to confirm receipt of and thank you for the

15

following contributions made from your group to the AN C, Kw aZ u Iu- Nat aI

.

And then "Actual disbursements 1,361 million. Year end dividend

1 million".

20

And then "Total contribution 1 9 9 9 - 2,2 million. Yours sincerely". And then Mr Z Mkhize. M'Lord, this letter is not signed. However, it appears that if there was at least an attempt from Dr Mkhize to write such a letter and the contents of this letter is confirmed by this t looks like this is what the schedule refers to, is the

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

- 1712-

S J R VAN DER WALT

payments already made and then maybe that "Further payments envisaged current year R I million" refers to the dividend. The important point is, Mr Van der Walt, t h 5

is "Payment made to Flo

Investments (Pty) Limited"

and this is sent to Mr Msimang clearly as contributions to the ANC for the period '96, '97, '98 and '99, would agree with me that at least on the face of this document it shows that contributions t o the ANC went through Floryn Investments (Pty) Limited? --- M'Lord, I won't

10

say that it went through Floryn Inv confirm these payments with the information a t my disposal and reply t o the question when I've had sufficient time to - to consider the information at my disposal. Fair enough.

--- M'Lord, the mere fact that it's reflected as

15

payments made to Floryn Investments, does not really mean that those payments were in actu

act made to Floryn Investments. It

could have been made to other parties. No, I think, Mr Van der Walt, we're at cross-purposes here. All I'm trying to convey to you is tha

you look a t P.84, although the

payments might not have gone from Floryn or to Flory

20

a t least they

were accounted for in Floryn Investments, and that's what I'm putting to you.

--- M'Lord, no, I don't think it was

Investments. M'Lord will recall t h

the financial records of Floryn Inv

25

CC27 /2004-RVH/C D u

- 1713-

S J R VAN DER WALT

Okay. --- This is a schedule that was ostensibly maintained in the Nkobi group of companie t o Floryn Inv Well, put differently, without the financial statements and the books of Floryn, you’re not really in a position t o say what the correct

5

position is? --- Yes, M‘Lord, but I was put with th these payments were accounted for in Floryn I replied t o that question.

To say you cannot really say yes or no? 10

SQUIRES J Without looking at the books. MR VAN ZYL

Without looking at the books.

--- Certainly, yes,

M’Lord. Ja.

Then with reference t o 0 1 0 5 5 6 - M’Lord, that’s a

document in M.2. We dealt with that on Friday

well. 0 10556,

5 5 6 in sequence 1. You will recall, Mr Van der Walt, that with

15

reference t o this document, you told the Court at least it looks as if nominee shareholding was not unknown t o the people within the Nkobi group and here M r Zuma’s

e is sitting ...[indistinct],

,,

M r Shezi’s opposite an entry nominee document - I’m not going t o

20

repeat all that evidence. Do you rec want t o put it straight that at this p whether this Zuma refers t M r Zuma, that it is his name

o w accept that it is was written there.

I

I need SQUIRES J

...[interven Just pause, Mr Van Zyl. Di

MR VAN ZYL Yes, M’Lord. The question

25

...[i

- 1714-

CC2 7 /2004-RVH/C D *

SQUIRES J

I don’t have a letter in my

S J R VAN DER WALT

...I intervention]

MR VAN ZYL That might be in 55, M‘Lord, or 55

-I had the same problem on Friday, my nu Yes, I’ve got .a handwritten note which has got

SQUIRES J

5

shareholding. MR VAN ZYL That’s correct, M’Lord. SQUIRES J

Is that the one

MR VAN ZYL SQUIRES

...[intervention]?

[Indistinct - speaking simultaneously]. es. e says ANC looks

10

Now with reference to that, M r Van der Walt, I have

15

MR VAN ZYL And about one-third down the way,

like Shezi there and then Zuma. SQUIRES J

So that ...[ intervention]

MR VAN ZYL

I’m referring t o that

SQUIRES J Yes, thank you.

MR VAN ZYL

t o put it to you that Mr Shaik will say that Mr Zuma was never a shareholder directly or indirectly in the Nkob

roup of companies and

to this day he is not a shareholder directly or indirectly. Do you have any comment on that? --- No, M’Lord. Do you accept that seems

--- M’Lord,

when I did my evidence-in-chief, I mad

I could not find

SQUIRES J

20

I

any evidence that he was indeed a shareholder.

However, I found

evidence that he was considered as a shareholder and that in that case the use of nominee shareh Nkobi group of companies. ith a blank signe

was a term no during cross-

2 form from the Education -

25

~~~~~

- 1715-

CC27/2004-RVH/CD m

S J R VAN DER WALT

excuse me, M'Lord, the Workers College, indicating that which have in effect made the shares in the Workers College a bearer(?)document

and, M'Lord, it is generally known that that is a method t o get past the use or the identification of real shareholders. What I did indeed

5

say is that it was considered, it is clear from the time w was set up, that Mr Zuma was considered t o b shareholder

against

the

background

of

a

possible

nominee

s hareholding,

Yes. MR VAN ZYL

Of course, the Workers College, the CM.42 you're

10

referring to, you have t o read that with the letter explaining why that CM.42 was signed in blank? --- Yes, M'

rd, I just indicated that a

blank CM.42, this form can exist o n its o w n and once the letter i removed, it serves as a bearer document and this is not the first case where I came across the use blank signed CM.42 forms in order t o be used as bearer documents. SQUIRES J As a matter of interest, may I ask, h o w does the holder of such a document enforce a right t o dividends? purely register its shareholder - its shareholding in

--- M'Lord, by e company and/or

by the existence of an agreement indicating what the shareholding

20

would entail but, M'Lord, this is not - I understand with the new money laundering(?) legislation, that this not

en allowed any more,

because shareholders are required t o be identified and recorded in the company records.

The use of bearer documents are allowed in

counrries sucn as rax navens, iiKe buernsey Jersey wnere bearer documents are allowed, but behind the bearer document system,

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD there's

S J R VAN DER WALT

a who

ts and trust deeds and

shareholdings indicating who the nominees are and what the intentions are of those - of the shareholding.

MR VAN ZYL

And typically you would also normally get a trust

document with a signed

.42 in a typical nominee situation?

---

5

Yes, that is one of the reasons why I believe that the word "nominee document" was noted he

SQUIRES J Yes. MR VAN ZYL

Can I ask you t o go t o page 2 in the addendum,

please, M r Van der Walt. That has t o do with the shareholding of Mr Gama in Clanwest Invest

10

t s and the fact that there w e had a

similar situation which you referred to? --- Yes, M'Lord. This is Exhibit H, page 2, paragraph 2.2. You've said "We have identified an undated security transfer form signed by Gama indicating that 20 ordinary shares were to

be transferred

...[indistinct] ...

15

sha

mentioned. A ...[indistinct]. .. f announcement(?) and renunciation and special power of attorney was also identified. The document indicate registered hold

hat Gama was the

of 20 ordinary shares, but was not the

0

owner of the 20 shares. The document does not identify the owner. The document further i dicated that Gama I

acknowledges that he held the shares solely

~

,

behalf of and in trust for the owner and the owner. The do

the order of

ent does not have a specific date

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

- 1717-

S J R VAN DER WALT

2 0 ordinary shares as nominee f entity

.

That's the trust document w e spoke abo M'Lord, this is a possible document that co I need t o put it t o you, Mr Van der Walt that Mr Shaik will say

5

that the reason w h y he required Mr Gama t o sign these documents uld stay with

was a t that stage he wasn't sure whether

Mr Gama or not and he didn't want t o be held t o ransom by somebody coming into his business and after doesn't see eye t o eye with him and they hold him t o ransom. That was the only reason why he r

10

uired these docu

and M r Gama is still with him in busine

Mr Gama is still in this

position as a shareholder in Clanwest. Do make on that?

--- Yes, M'Lord. M'Lord, if th

s the case, then

one would not need a deed of acknowledgement and renunciation and

15

special power of attorney, just a mere signing of a blank CM.42 would protect Mr Shaik in this instance. This Deed renunciation

d special of a

says "Do hereby declare and acknowledge irrevocably that the said shares are not my property, but are the sole property of I

...IV

and then it's blank. M'Lord, this is a docume

SQUIRES J Sorry. Who is that sign by Gama.

..[intervention]

by? --- M'Lord, this is signed

20

MR VAN ZYL If I can ask you to go to page 59 in Exhibit G. Whilst you're looking for that, Mr Gama is, of course, on the list of State witnesses and we'll hear from him as and when he is called. Page 59 of Exhibit G. On the second paragraph under "Ordinary Share Capital" you refer t o Gestilac and over the n x t few pages you explain the sale

I

of Gestilac's shares for

15

...[indistinct]. .. value

Do you recall that? --- Yes, M'Lord. And you compared that to the fact that in the case of Nkobi Investments, the shares were sold for a premium of some R490 000 above ...[indistinct] ... value.

--- Yes, M'Lord.

20

If I can take you t o page 62, I think that is the important page. I

I

I

I

It is under the schedule on that page. You say "It is evident from the above ...I indistinct] ... shares and

I

Thomson-CSF Holding by Nkobi Inv

tments to Thornson-

CSF France, resulted in a premium

ing paid amounting

t o R490000. This equals a pr

ium of R49000 per

25

- 1719-

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

share. This sale effectively took place four days after Gestilac SA sold it's 5% shareholding also in ThomsonCSF Holding for an amount t o equal t o par value". You have told the Court that it was clear t o you that Gestilac seems a nominee shareholder for some other party? --- Yes,

5

M'Lord. And you also told the Court that it was clear fr of the meetings that they were being represented at by Thomson-CSF? --- Yes, M'Lord. If they were indeed a nominee shareholder for Thom

10

would that explain why they were prepared t o sell the shares at

...[indistinct] ... value? ---

M'Lord, I do not know and understand the

circumstances under which the sale was negotiated. If they were a nominee shareholder on behalf of a third party, then one would expect that that third party would have expected a higher level of ring the fact that

remuneration for the sale of the shares, consi

I

15

Nkobi Investments sold the shares at a higher value. SQUIRES J

Yes, but I think this question is irected t o a remark by

-I think I recall you making too that you suspected that Thomson, they

might be a nominee shareholder for Thomson.

--- No, M'Lord, that

20

Thomson's representatives represented Gestilac. Sorry, yes, I think tha

...[intervention].

say that they were representing Thomson l

--- Yes. I cannot

I would find it strange in

a structure where Thomsons is involved where

y would nominate

older of 5 % t o act as a nominee on their behalf. unds a bit strange

25

CC27l2004-

S J R VAN DER WALT

MR VAN ZY

let’s look a t it the other way around that there

was some so

f link between Thomsons and Gestilac?

the link is G

--- M‘Lord,

older in Thomsons and Thomson’s

representatives

--- I do not

...[intervention]?

know how far or whether there are any other links between Thomsons and other individuals. Or, for that m

estilac actually was?

M’Lord, I could not est

---

Yes,

Gestilac was, as reflected in the

10

body of my report. The amount of R500 000 that were paid for the shares of Nkobi in Thomson-CSF Holdings, t value, what was the

I s a premium of R490000 and the

...[indistinct] ... value

of the shares of 10 000.

In your going through the documen

ion, do you come across

documents that show that that pric

as the subject of some

negotiations and even diff

nce of opinion between Thomson on t h

one hand and the Nkobi group n the other hand? --- M‘Lord, I will reply t o this question after I’ve just on - as regards the question whether there is any link between any other party and

20

Gestilac.

SQUIRES J Yes.

--- M‘Lord will recall o t w o instances through a

reconstruction of comments through a - the construction of events and facts as represented by the

tual shareholding

t h a t point in

time in relation to remarks made by Shaik a shareholding in Th have accoun

sons, there were a t least t w o points where I c in that equation

25

documents, came across documents which show t o you that there were some serious negotiations and difference of opinion between Thomsons and Nkobi as to the value to be placed on these shares?

--- M'Lord, t o the best of my knowledge I recall that it was minuted that the shares would be sold at value.

10

And that value was to be arrived

M'Lord, 1 cannot

determine the exact wording, but it would have been a confirmed value as regards to the value of the company a t that SQUIRES J And that would have

by an auditor, or

something? --- M'Lord, I cannot r

15

go t o the documents. The mere fact is there would have been some method used to determine the value as indicated in Exhibit G.

MR VAN ZYL I'm also in the roblem that I can't put my hand on the document immediately, but I want t o put it to you in any case that it was clear from that document that the accountants from both sides

20

would meet and they would work out a fair value for these shares. ,

Does that correspond with your recollection?

--- Yes, M'Lord, it - I

cannot recall whether it w a s the account would have been determined. Or the accounting departments?

---

Yes, M'Lord, that is

25

~~

~~

c

- 1722 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

Hm-hm. In any case, we'll get the document out and we can look a t it tomorrow.

--- Yes.

Then if I can ask your attention for page 6 9 in Exhibit G. If I can ask you to go to 0 2

52, that's in sequence 2 - M

5

Court file M.3, sequenc SQUIRES J

Did you say Court file 5 ? Court file 3, M'Lord.

MR VAN ZYL SQUIRES J

3.

M.3, sequenc

MR VAN ZYL

SQUIRES J Yes, thank you.

10

MR VAN ZYL Paragraph - t h

a meeting - minutes of a meeting of

shareholders

s

and the

dire

of

Thomson-CSF Holding

on

2 2 November 1 9 9 6 and on page 5 of those minutes, paragraph 8.2.9, it's minuted that "Mr Shaik stated that the establish

15

nt criteria for

company contracts is of major importance and since

- .. . . . . .

-

. ..

.

Nkobi led the acquisition of UEC they must be kept

annrnach tn ADS tn which M r Mnvnnt an red'^

I I 11-

IUU

y vu

LW

g a y

,

VI I

pay=

that page, about the 4th line

V J

VI

L A I IIUIL

u,

LI I C I I I

a~

pa1ayi

api I

V II

LV

-

"Shaik then replied that the establishment of criteria is of major importance that since Nkobi had led t h I

of UEC, they had to be kept informed a t all times t o be consulted prior t o any approach to ADS. obi led the acquisition of

It is unclear

25

~~~~~

- 1723 -

CC 2 7 /2004-RVH/C D

J R VAN DER WALT

Are you with me? --- Yes, M’Lord. His Lordship asked you a t the time when you gave this evidence who and what

asUEC. D o y

recall that? --- Yes, M’Lord.

And if I remember correctly - and help me

I’m not, if my

memory is not correct - you said it was a company in the Thomson’s -had t o do with Thomson?

5

--- Yes, M’Lord, I think to the best of my

knowledge that was m y reply. Can I ask you to go t o Court file M.7. It’s the first page in M.7. It‘s 040435, that’s a combined company register of what w e know as African Defence Systems.

Perhaps if you turn over the page to

10

040436, it will make it clearer. Company name, it’s UEC Projects Limited and if you go t o the right you’ll see Altech Defence Systems and then African Defence Systems (

) Limited, formerly Altech,

formerly UEC. Would you agr

with me that UEC is just another

name for what w e now kno

s African Defence Systems (Pty)

Limited?

--- Yes, M’Lord.

15

M’Lord will recall when I

question, I noted that I will come back t o M’Lord on that point and when I dealt with ADS in the later section in my report, it became evident what UEC was and I acce

EC is the forme

20

ADS. SQUIRES J Yes, thank you. MR VAN ZYL

And the second poi

s a result of your

remarks on page 6 9 ,

“It is unclear how Nkobi led the acquisition of UEC”.

Mr Shaik will tell the Court that he introd to ADS, as we now know it, then Altech Defence

25

1

-

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

S J R VAN DER WALT

1724-

of the Altech group and he introduced them not only t o ADS, but also to their capabilities in the defence field. He specifically introduced Pierre Moynot t

r Bill Venter and he convinced Thomson-CS

ticularly Mr Gomez, t o invest in ADS. In this regard ca you t o go to, in Court file M.3, 020004, page 4 in the sequence 2 series.

This is a letter dated 6 August 1995 from Mr Moynot to

Mr Shaik. "I would like to confirm hereb

the content of our

previous discussions relating to co-operation between

country where w e could decide together to co-operate further. The following has been discussed and agreed in principle pending the final approval by Thomson-CSF's general management

...I'

and can I then ask you to turn the page t o the paragraph marked 5 of the next

- the second page of the letter.

existing South African companies such as but not limited to Altech/UEC, Plessey, Reutech, ATE

..."

etcetera -

which was already initiated by Thomson-CSF in the past I I

t w o years".

5

CC27/2004-RVH/CD letter refers to that, w group, and this was discussed further there.

There is another

document somewhere in these files and 1‘11 try and get it, where both of them signed that - the understanding that had -been reached in Paris. If I can take you

o t o 0 3 0 0 1 8 ...[intervention].

--- M’Lord,

5

should I comment on that? Yes, please do. --- Ye

M‘Lord, I would find it strange t o still

at the very early stages of the - of Thomsons and - or the Thomson/Nkobi relationship and that Thom arms industry.

n’s background is in the

The companies mentioned there, Altech, ATE,

10

tent, the companies that one would

Reutech, Plessey t o a less

want t o see that Thomsons would be interested in finding investments

or performing joint projects with.

If I can ask you then

...[intervention]

SQUIRES J But had there not - Mr Sh in Paris in July of this year? of June 1996, there wa

t already have a meeting

--- Yes, M’Lord, there was on the 4 t h

meeting where, on the 4th of June 1996,

Schabir Shaik in actual fact had a meeting with Peter Watt of Altron. ~

15

~~~

c

I

S J R VAN DER

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

making is that there were some movements towards ADS a t that point in time, albeit from Shaik or the Thomson's side. was in July, was it not, of 1995, that there was a meeting with Mr Perrier, I think and one or t w o others, in Paris? Or have I got the year wrong? --- Of the possible investment? No,

it was just

...[intervention]?

if necessary

the

possible

joint

ventures,

5 I think

--- Yes, M'Lord. I can check the date, M'Lord, and

...[intervention]

Well, its quite possible that at that meeting, if I am correct in my date, that Mr Shaik may have mentioned Altech and the expertise

10

that they possessed? --- Yes, M'Lord, I can find the exhibit and refer M'Lord t o the

...[intervention]

Yes, if you could confirm that I'd be grateful.

--- Yes.

MR VAN ZYL If I can ask you t o just stay with 0 2 0 0 0 5 and take you 15

t o the last parag ph in this letter by Mr Moynot. "Should you agree that the a

ve is a true reflection of

our discussions, I would suggest that w e go together t o Thomson-CSF's

Paris

head office

to

agreement and from there t o Malaysia. today's teleph

finalise

our

As per out

e conversation, w e could fly t o Paris on

20

Tuesday night". It's clear that they went t o Paris after this letter on the 6th of August I I

1995? --- Yes, M'Lord. And if I can take you one step further in the 3-series, in Court file M.4. On 030018 and 030019, if I can take you over the page t o 0 3 0 0 1 9, paragrap

25

of August is clearly wrong. If you look a t the letter

Now that da

itself, it was written on the 29th of August 1995. SQUIRES J

Which date is clearly wrong, Mr Va

M R V A N ZYL

M'L

, in paragraph 5 he refers 10

of August at 11.OO pm. SQUIRES J

Yes?

MR VAN ZYL

with Bill Venter for the

Pierre has secure

5th of August at 1 1.OO pm. SQUIRES J

Oh, I see.

MR VAN ZYL If you look at the date of

letter, it's written on the

29th of August 1995, that

referred t o the 5th of

September

15

...[intervention]

SQUIRES J Yes.

MR VAN ZYL

... 1 9 9 5 at

1 1 .OO pm.

"I am not sure whether I am going t o

20

meeting". Now if you recall, the letter we've just looked at, which was the 6th

I l

of August 1995, th

were on their way t o

and Mr Shaik is reporting t o A Moynot has secured a

M r Jean-Mar

eting with Bill

September at 1 1.OO pm and you

25

I.

CC27/2004-RVH/CD 6

the minutes of the v between Thomson-CSF and actually Th South African company and Altech for t Would you agree with that? --- Yes, Just one other

atter of inter

purposes, is also paragraph 1 . You will recall that about a half an hour ago w e spoke about the Plessey shares and the R700000

r Shaik made out of that deal. Now her "Plessey Corp shares, see copy of

's(?) latest letter

of share offer. This does not exclude Halim(?) playing his

10

part. See letter t o Halim. However, with regard t o the

firm offer of Nkobi Dr Botha(?), Jea

...[indistinc .

in the process with

as promised me additional shares t o

bring the amount of 6 million, representing exactly 1 %".

SQUIRES J

MR VAN ZYL

n Zyl, where are you re

15

M'Lord, I'm reading from 0 3 0 0 1

29th of August, the first paragraph marked "1

'I.

MR VAN ZYL That's again the reference t o the Plessey shares and one can see in August 1995, that was still a talking point between them. Can I ask you t o ~

... can I ask

...[intervention]

20

--- Yes, M'Lord.

from here t o 020003. --- M'Lord, also

I

l

I

I I

a paragraph at - I ma 0 3 0 0 1 9, when it was there stated "As per telecon today, the meeting with JZ is confirmed September 1995

...'I

25

S J R VAN DER WALT

CC27 /2004-RVH/CD which I was referred to Pierre and Bill Ve

on the same date. trying t o say that the meeting with Pierre and

Bill Venter and the meeting with JZ in 6 has any relevance or an t o do with each o t

‘Lord, it looks like the meeting with

5

J Z was be - was a t 8 o’clock that morning and the one with Bill Venter was 11 o‘clock that morning. Yes, and the letter is addressed t o Jean-Marc Pizano. --- That is correct, M’Lord. Yes. And just reading on the face of what is contained in this

IO

letter, it would seem that he is confirming with Mr Pizano, the meeting with JZ for next week, the 5th of September. Would you agree with that?

--- That is correct, M’Lord. Ja.

Can I ask you t o go t o 02003. That is the letter under

cover which the 6th of August fax was sent t o Mr Shaik w e looked

15

at earlier. Are you with me? --- That is correct, M’Lord. ~

And in this 02003 dated also 6 August I 995, Mr Moynot writes

t o Mr Shaik in the second paragraph -

“I now need your agreement t o go t o Paris together with me. I intend to organise a meeting with o

20

and CEO, Alain Gomez and I may not change it a t the last minute. Besides any problem of mutual respect, it is a question of c dibility.

Indeed,

time that I have announced your coming t o Paris. The cancellation would not give a good image and would not

25

(Pty). --- M’Lord, I accept that this may have been the introductory

10

meetings or this is where introductory meetings took place. However, as I indicated in reply in cross-examination earlier on today, the actual negotiations and the actual transaction and agreement t o take over ADS, took place some years thereafter and if this letter is dated the 6th of August 1995, the heads of agreement of restructuring or the

15

agreement of sale of the remaining 5 0 % in ADS, signed with Thomson’s France took place on the 16th of February 1999, hence my comments, M’Lord. There are a lot of moments and there are a lot of events that took place in between this period and I accept that the introduction took place as a result of Shaik, if that is what the

20

evidence will be. If I then can ask you to

o to page 72

- M’Lord and I must

apologise, I have a nagging fe I

~

witness, but just t o make doubly If there’s any doubt,

MR VAN ZYL

Page 72, M‘Lord,

25

!

I

MR VAN ZYL On page 72 of Exhibit G with reference to this letter,

030010, you point out that it's printed with the same font style as the previous letter, being the one without the headi

which wasn't

signed by the Rev Stofile, I've handed you the copy with the

10

letterhead an with the signatur a few minutes ago. The point you

I

,

were making is that this was obviously typed at the same office most probably by the same ypist, the one u name of Hamida Makhtar and the other under the name of the Rev Arnold Stofile and b Holdings. Do you recall t and 9 addressed to the E

15

-- Yes, M'Lord, the letter Chairman, Dato Halim Wirsaad, is

-

similar and this is in the name of Rev Arnold Stofile and then the letter addressed to Jacob Zuma, 0 3 0 0 1 03001 1 - this is from a certain Hamida Makh r. It appears to be again a similar letter and this one is address

20

to Mr Jacob Zuma

...[intervention] SQUIRES J You mean similar t y

s, M'Lord. And then the

next one, which is from Nkobi Holdings on 0 3 0 0 1 2, is also the same, M'Lord.

So it theref

Nkobi Holdings, work

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD

- 1732 -

S J R VAN DER WALT

know the person by the name of Hamida Makhtar, bu person also typed a letter on behalf of Hamid Yes.

--- And, M‘Lord, there are other examples as well.

Mi3 VAN ZYL I need t o put t o you that - if I haven’t done so already -that the letter

nder the name of Hamid

5

executive director of the Landmarks(?) group of companies, also a Malaysian group of companies and she was in Durban and Mr Shaik made his facilities available t typed, the letter sitting at 03

0 0 1 1. --- That is possible,

10

M’Lord, I cannot exclude the possibility. The letter 0 3 0 0 1 2 through t o 0 3 0 0 1 4signed by M r Shaik on an Nkobi Holdings letterhead is, of cours

is letter. It was typed by his

typiste, the typiste who typed the letter for Hamida Makhtar. And the letter t o the - by the Rev Arnold Stofile was also typed b y the same typiste in M r Shaik’s office and that was w h the expected trip that

15

he would have had with the ne introduce him, as w e covered earlie after it was typed, was in fact faxed t o M r Stofile t o sign and it was signed and returned t o Mr S letterhead and the signature of Mr Stofile at P.85 and P.86. That is what M r Shaik will say why these 3 letters were typed with the same I

font and furthermore, they were typed by the same typiste. --- Yes,

I

M‘Lord, that confirmed my point that it person. And my - but more importantly, there‘s nothing sinister

--- No, M’Lord, this is not what - the reas

made the point.

20

And then you also referred the Cour to, on page 73 of your

5

report, under the heading "Correspondence with Defence in Malaysia". Also o n the middle of page 73

-

"Also on 8 August 1995, Shaik wrote t o the Deputy 10

Minister of Defence in Malaysia. In this letter he thanked the Minister for having met with him. He also indicated

in the letter that Nkobi purchased majority shares in South Africa

companies involved in the following

defence related technologies, aeronautical engineering, 15

the control and designs(?) t o fit into the Migs, Rooi Valk attack helicopter, missile guiding technologies

..."

etcetera, and you make the point that the contents of the letter did not accurately reflect the group's current position because, you said, they didn't have majority shar

in South African companies involved

in related technolog - in the defence related technologies. I think that was the point your were making?

20

--- Yes, that's correct,

M'Lord. I

M r Shaik will say that a t the time he was trying, attempting t o sell defence related products to the Malaysians, p Valk attack helic

err which was developed in this country, I think,

by Denel a t the t

.

Are you familiar with this ...[intervention]?

---

25

CC27/2004-RVH/CD To some extent, yes, M'L And he will say that a number of South Africa '

the Malaysian companies, but unfortunately didn't have much success

with the Rooi Valk attack helicopter.

5

t's the background to t

letter t o the Deputy Minister of Defence in Malaysia

it does not explain my point where it is clear from t h

letter where he

indicated in this letter that "Nkobi Holdings

chased majority shares in South

African companies involved in the following defence reIat ed tech noIog ies Hm-hm?

10

'I.

---

does not say that Nkobi Holdings

was successful in introducing Malaysian corn African companies to the Malaysians.

This indicates t h a t Nkobi

Holdings purchased majority shares. I do not, unless I misunderstand

15

the question, it does not indicate t o me that what is put t o me, that that relates t o the acquisition of shares or p

those companies.

No, I understand where this Court, "Look at this man.

writes to the Malaysians and says

2

he's the first black majority ...[indistinct]. .. the defence industry and he's purchased Africa, that's a lie", tha ,

hat you're saying? --- That is correct,

M Lord. Yes.

I'm saying

Mr Shaik, in 1995, was trying to sell defence related products like the

25

4

- 1735 -

CC27/2004-RVH/CD f

4

S J R VAN DER WALT

Rooi Valk helicopter to the Malaysians, therefore he wrote this letter to the Deputy Minister of Defence in Malaysia and you(?) would also recall that it follows hard on the heels o f t from Mr Moynot to him that they must go to Paris and from there to Malaysia? --- Yes, M’Lord,

gain I’ve made my point in this regard.

5

It does not mean the acquisition of majo t y shares and in any event,

the acquisition of 30 t o - or an offer of 30 to 3 5 percent in Thomson meant - did not - certainly did not mean a majority shareholding and

it certainly did not mean that the company, or that the shareholding was acquired as presented to the Minister of Defence of Malaysia.

10

It‘s t w o different concepts, M’Lord, and I - I understand that that could have been the case that Mr Shaik a t that point in time attempted to introduce the Malaysia day with a number of successful projects and I assumed that those are presented to me in an effort t o illustrate where the

15

funds of - for setting up Nkobi came or where it came from and none of those companies, to the best o transactions, involved d the investment of or acquisition of shares, majority shares in any one of the defence related industries by Nko

20

M’Lord, may this be a convenient t on to a new subject.

SQUIRES J Yes, is it convenien I‘m

afraid

I

Mr Van der Wal

ve

to

ask

you

you t o break n o w ? Very well, corne

again

tomorrow,

t 1 0 o’clock, M‘Lord, or half past nine?

to start at half past nin

25