How to Escape From Unlawful Restraint

How To Escape From Unlawful Restraint & Evade Capture With Chance Sanders

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Welcome, everybody, to the next presentation for the survival summit. Today we have with us a guest that’s going to be talking about a pretty important topic. We’re getting a little darker into the types of topics here, not the happy, growingsunflowers-in-the-sunshine type of stuff like we’ve … that are important, but were in other talks, and getting into a little dirtier waters here. The topic of today is going to be escape and evasion in really crappy situations. We have an expert with us today who works with a lot of other experts, where they’re in natural disaster types of areas, and surviving them with the rioting and the nastiness that goes on, and how to escape those things and make it home. This could also be adapted for making it out, if the goal is to get out, but how to do that right. It might be a topic you haven’t thought about a lot before, and hopefully you’ll get a lot of new ideas. The guest we have with us today is Chance Sanders. He has served eight years in active duty as a United States Marine, where he traveled extensively. During that time, he recognized the need for urban escape training as well as wilderness survival skills. Going outside the normal military school of command, Chance attended many survival classes including on-point tacticals, urban escape and evasion class, and Chance has combined all of that years of training into an actual full-length production video that covers urban survival, which is something that you can find on Amazon, and I’m sure we’ll get more into that. Aside from that, Chance Sanders, welcome to the call. Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here. I should also mention that my brother, Dave Womach, is joining me on this call as well. Dave, welcome to the call as well. Thank you. All right, Chance, so give us the rundown on escape and evasion. It’s something, admittedly, Dave and I do not know much about, as with oh so many things in life. What are people … just, I guess, get us kick-started into this. What are people not understanding? What are things they should be considering, and why, for escaping and evading? Escape and evasion really came into its own during World War II, when we had our troops getting shot down quite a bit, as well as the British getting shot down. Whole government agencies were put into figuring out how to get these guys

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back across friendly lines. A lot of what we draw from comes from that, as far as gear and some of the techniques and stuff. Countless schools have sprung up in the military, the SERE School being the most famous of those, which stands for Survive, Escape, Resist and Evade. Escape and evasion has gotten … kind of become a cool buzz word in recent years, but I don’t think people really understand it. Most people use it to sell kits, and we’ll get into kits in a little bit. Essentially, what you want to do is be able to get away from any type of restraint … unlawful restraint, you don’t want to use these techniques to pop the handcuffs if you got arrested for something, because they tend to frown on that. Learning how to actually get out of physical restraints, and then being able to evade; get away, create distance, move to a safer area. Depending on the situation, the evasion portion may happen first, and it may prevent you from becoming captured to start with. It’s one of those things that’s kind of a gray area with people, because we talk about getting out of handcuffs. We talk about picking locks. We talk about stealing cars, social engineering, convincing people to do stuff for you that they normally wouldn’t do. It’s one of those things that people … some people don’t like, some people are scared of, but I think is an essential part of any prepper anybody who’s survival-minded, especially in an urban area. Do you have any … maybe some examples on different scales with these sorts of different things? The first one that comes to mind is, you don’t even have to go to the prepper mindset; you just turn on the news, wait a couple months, and, “Oh, you know, wife was tied up, you know,” for this long … Yes, exactly. I tell people, if you look at your … do your research on kidnapping, do you know what the number one kidnap capital of the world is? I don’t. Mexico City. Do you know what number two is? Probably not; Phoenix, Arizona. Really? Yes. Out of all the places in the world; third world countries, Somalia, Bogota … Phoenix, Arizona, is number two. There are some things, when we talk about this, we want to look at it in anti-kidnapping, as one portion of it. Home invasion is another portion of it. Like you said, that’s become something that’s happened quite a bit recently, is not just burglaries, but actual home invasions where you

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have one or more people invading your home. Quite often, they will subdue the residents in some manner … duct tape or rope or whatever … and then do all these horrible things right in front of them. The thing about … if that person had self-defense skill sets, which I know some of your other speakers are going to be covering in depth, but also the ability to escape out of those restraints and then actually do something. I don’t care how spun-up you are, or how locked-on you are … somebody, somewhere can get the drop on you. You cannot be 100 percent aware all the time; it just doesn’t happen. There’s this thing called sleeping that happens every now and then. Exactly. What we cover in our training and videos and stuff like that, is some very small tools that you can use. I know people have seen it in Hollywood where you take the bobby pin and pick out of the handcuffs. That’s actually works; it’s actually a really, really good technique for getting out of handcuffs. These are skill sets that you can learn in a weekend, and then take the rest of your life trying to master. My first thing I would tell anybody as far as escape and evasion is, learn how to get out of restraints, be it 550 cord, zip ties or flex cuffs, and duct tape and handcuffs, finally. It’s one of those things that once you learn the secret, you’re like, “Why do they even use handcuffs anymore? Why do they use any of this stuff?” It’s knowledge; people that don’t have knowledge … once you’ve got your hands duct-taped in front of you, must people just succumb and say, “OK, yes, you’ve got me. There’s nothing I can do,” because they don’t know any better. That’s interesting. I don’t know if this gets off topic … we have another … I don’t know if you guys know each other. We’ve had so many presenters refer other presenters for this summit, but it brings up a question for me, where I’m talking with E.J. Owens, or going to be. We’re talking about the darker side. I know E.J. Say again? I know E.J. OK, so his topic is the darker side of stuff; like, “cops aren’t coming” types of situations, and now we have a dead body, what now, right? Kind of stuff, and handling that mentally, physically. It does bring up one question that I was

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planning on asking him what to do, but maybe it’s appropriate here as well. Maybe some situations involve not putting someone down, like, I don’t know, theft … but it’s unarmed theft, or something like that. Maybe you want to set up … I don’t know, maybe you want to take a prisoner, would that be the …? I don’t know what it’s called in that particular situation, where there’s … Right; place under control. Yes. You want to place that individual under control, or under detention restraint; whatever you want to call it. Right. Are you asking how to do that? Is there a preferred, yes, tool? I’m not … we don’t necessarily need to get into how to do that, because it’s a different topic, but I just wanted to know if maybe the tool is … you could add a piece of insight into that, before we move on. Like I said, most people that are not trained … your average crook isn’t trained on how to get out of handcuffs or even zip ties, for that matter. I think the more important thing would be to do a thorough search of that individual, to know how to approach them, if you’ve discovered someone in your home and/or property and you’re in the situation where, “Hey, I need to detain this individual.” You’re going to want to use at least two people; one person will be your cover guy, who will have a weapon at hand, and will stay 90 degrees off of you, so if you have to push off that individual, and they produce a gun or a knife, your cover man can handle that situation. You want to prone them out and obviously do a very detailed search, and remove any items that may be harmful to you, and then restrain them. If there’s more than one, you want to separate them. You don’t want them communicating with each other and coming up with some type of a plan, which is basically the same thing that happens to you in most cases if you are illegally detained, kidnapped, et cetera. OK, yes. That’ll bring up good questions for me to ask E.J. when we do that conversation. OK, cool. Let’s move it on in the escape and evasion theme, instead of prisoner-taking. We have … what’s next here that people need to understand?

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Once you’ve developed some skills as far as getting out of restraints … remember, that’s just the first step. Whenever you get captured or kidnapped, the initial point that you are taken … from that point on, it gets increasingly harder to escape. A lot of times, the people they use to actually do the kidnapping are not that smart. They’re not getting paid that much, and they’re not like their tier one operators. The further you go into the system, the smarter they get, the more obstacles you’ll have between you and freedom. You’ve got to look at your mental ability, your physical stamina … everything that they can do to wear you out is going to be happening, the further you get into it. Also distance; there is … if you look at the sex trade, sex slavery pipelines and things of that nature … they can kidnap a girl in New York and have her in Mexico the next day. She’ll wake up after being drugged, and have no clue where she’s at. They can move really, really fast, so think of that. I’ve seen more posters up about people watching out for sex trafficking in the airports these days. I don’t know if you are up on the stats, if it’s rising, but I see more ads trying to raise awareness for it. I know the movie “Taken” was kind of freaky to watch, but something else for people to consider, that sex trafficking. Exactly. If you’re a female listening to this, I definitely recommend learning these skill sets. They very well may come in handy for a female; or as a male, we may need it, too, but their chances are even higher of someone trying to kidnap them. After you’ve learned a few of these techniques for getting out of restraints … that would be the first thing I’d tell people to learn. After that, you get the correct tools, but you’ve got to learn to keep these tools with you at all times. This is where I’ll get into kits. Most of this stuff is very small; little items that you hide on your person. When you see these survival kits, or escape and evasion kits, and it’s this big huge bag, and it’s got all this stuff in it … that stuff’s not going to do you any good, if it’s not on your physical person. This is what we learned from our ancestors in World War II; they would take a little button compass and sew it into their uniform. They would have a silk escape map that would go into their uniform. They would have these different little tools, because they knew once you were taken prisoner, you’re not going to be able to hang on to your battle rig. You’re not going to be able to hang onto

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your backpack. You’re not going to have any of that stuff with you. It’s going to be very, very minor little tools that you have in order to escape. On a daily basis of carrying those things, I would say definitely put your escape tools on your person, and your survival tools can be … depending on what kind of clothing you wear it can be in your pockets, and/or a shoulder bag or some type of backpack. I really, really want people to understand that the escape part of your kit does not ride in your backpack. Sorry, I just have a pet peeve about that one, because people like to use that for selling gear; from the way I teach people is, you start out with nothing and learn how to make everything you need as you go. Makes a lot of sense. Could you give people … is this the right time to give people an idea of maybe what that list of items is, or are you going to get into that later? It’s … no, we can go into it now. We can go into it now. What should people include? Say again? Would should people … what are those items that people should include and plan on having on their person? On your person … you can get these individually. They actually came originally out of a SOG multi-tool, but it’s just a little seatbelt cutter. It’s a small little blade, and it’s kind of a safety V-hook kind of a blade. If you take one of those and a handcuff key, and put it on a piece of 550 cord, you can tie it behind your back, through your belt, and then tuck it down in your pants. That’ll give you, A, the flex cutter will allow you to get out of flex cuffs if they’re behind you, and also give you access to a handcuff key. Another thing is, you can stash three or four bobby pins back there, and in the front as well. You can do a similar thing with it on a chain around your neck; a breakaway chain that you can pull out. If your hands are behind you, you might pull it out with your teeth if you have to, break it, and then pick it up and use it. What is a breakaway chain? I’m not familiar with why you use that. You’ve seen the military dog tags, right? Yes.

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The chain … the beaded chain that we all wore our dog tags on, that’s a breakaway chain. That’s designed so it won’t snag up and somebody can’t choke you out with it; it’ll break. Chet: I was watching a special, believe it or not, on “Animal Planet” of all places. There’s a show where … you might know this person. There’s a show where a guy was basically setting up his daughters for a fake kidnapping. He was explaining all the important things, of how to get out of handcuffs and that kind of stuff. One of the daughters was kidnapped in the park in the show; she thought it was real, and she had what you’re talking about; kind of the breakaway chain. She was actually able to escape in the middle of this. It was pretty cool to see, but I guess just kind of for people that saw that, it helps kind of seat it into their memory about the reasons why it’s probably pretty important. Chance: Yes, it is. That’s actually up here. It was actually a good friend of mine, Phil Burns, was the guy that was … that was his family in that show. Chet: Very cool. Chance: The guy he had working with him on that show … if you remember the bald guy with the [inaudible 17:00:9] that played the kidnapper, that’s a guy named Kelly Alwood. Kelly … we’re all connected. This is a very small world, when you start talking escape and evasion trainers. Kelly actually has his own line of lock picks; it’s Alwood Locksport, I’ll give him a quick little plug there. That’s something else you will get into, is lock-picking. I carry those, and I carry a set of SerePick Bogotas. Right along with the other darker skills, you start talking about locks and lockpicking; some people get a little bit nervous around that. The thing that we talked about in this whole thing, is being able to flip the switch; being able to go from John Q. Public, law-abiding citizen, to a person that is willing to do what they need to do in order to get back home, and make it back home to their family. Unfortunately, a lot of people … even if they have the skill set … cannot make that jump quick enough to get ahead of everybody else, you know what I’m saying? Does that make sense? Chet: I can see how that would be challenging. Do you have any advice for people? Essentially, you’ve got a … you’re not going to go hurt people, right? You just have to realize that the rules have changed. Escape & Evasion

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Exactly. Let’s say for instance, you don’t have a vehicle. You come up on a used car lot, and there’s a ton of vehicles sitting there. If the world’s gone crazy, you need to get home; would you steal one? Chet: You might need to, right? Chance: Exactly. As a … and it’s owned by a corporation. If it bothers you that bad, once everything gets settled, you can pay for it. That’s what I’m saying; people … and I see it a lot in the forums and the message boards, where people think they’re going to be able to live under the laws we have, in a lawless society, and not be able … I’m not saying murder people, or anything stupid like that. What I’m saying is, knowing that gray area, and how to operate in that gray area; being able to flip that switch and go from … really the key to it is, you’re always switched on. You just restrain yourself in normal day-to-day life. That’s the only way I can tell people to do it is, you’re always switched on. You’re always in the gray area mentally, just you don’t act it out until it’s absolutely necessary. That’s something everybody’s going to have to search up and come up … figure out on their own, what are they willing to do, what are they capable of doing, and understand the difference in the two; being willing to fight for your family, but not having the ability to do it. I hear this a lot with women, and they talk about their momma bear instinct; “If somebody messes with my child, I’ll just … I’ll turn into momma bear.” You think that, and mentally you may go there, but physically you’re not going to be any more capable than you were 10 minutes ago. Chet: I want to interject and add to that, too; I was just editing a video where it appears … the video looks like we shoot a guy in the head through a red dot scope. I’ve got to say, even though I’ve been through a lot of training … I’m not a military guy, I’m just somebody who’s training a lot, and wants to be pretty prepared. Looking through that scope, and via the editing that we did, it kind of was uncomfortable just even on a computer for me to pull that trigger, so to speak. I’m somebody that I would … I trained for this, so I would hope that I’d be ready. It was just interesting, realizing how not ready most of us are, even though we think we are. It was just a fascinating discovery that ties in with what you’re saying. Chance: Make no mistake; this is not anything that a sane person wants to happen. If someone’s telling you that they wish the world would fall apart so they could go Escape & Evasion

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kill everybody that they didn’t like or whatever … those people are insane. I don’t want any of this stuff to happen. I love my life. Chet: I think you bring up a … Chance: I want my country to get better. I want things to be as good as possible. I also know and understand the other side of this, and that that stuff exists. As much as we hate it … as much as we want to protect our family from it … somebody has to be ready and willing to stand up to it, and that’s us. That’s us as men. That’s us as parents. That’s us as friends. Those of us who have gotten the training, who are seeking the training, it’s our responsibility to be able to stand up, to shield our family from it. We deal with a lot of ugly situations, and you see a lot of things that you don’t want to see. Everybody’s not going to respond the same. People that try to say they’ll do things one way or another, they don’t know until that time comes. Chet: Chance, I got a question and a quick lead-in to see if this is where to go. One of the best ways that I learned to start being more aware … and as you talk about these other dark areas, I’m realizing I’m not mentally prepared to go there yet, or I could be more prepared if I knew what those things were. Just getting my concealed carry permit and some training, and having a gun on me where I could actually do something about certain things, made me automatically start to watch my situation much, much more. There’s this paranoia process … I actually had to go through this paranoia process for like two years. My friends don’t take that long, so I’m especially, I don’t know, debilitated or something like that. I just … I knew that the process was a process, and I wanted to get through it. I knew there were people that could live that way. It’s not paranoia; it feels that way for a little bit, but you can get through it. Can you talk on that, and then expose … you mentioned, “Be ready to steal a car.” This is like, be picking out cars that you might be able to target in your everyday life, and start thinking like that. What are the other things people can be thinking about and trying to turn on their subdued psycho, or whatever you want to call it; that persona? Chance: The high-end awareness, and carrying a gun, will definitely heighten your awareness. I do things a certain way because I carry a gun. I don’t go to bars. I don’t go to large places with stupid people. I don’t do things … Black Friday, I stayed at home. Things where you can avoid as much as possible … what you’ve got to realize is, no matter what tactical school of shooting you went to or Escape & Evasion

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whatever … when this stuff happens, more than likely you’re going to be by yourself. Fireteam movement drills with a rifle is not going to help you when all you have is a concealed carry handgun. You’ve got to take it down and realize how vulnerable you are. The older I get, the more training I get and the more I see it’s not paranoia. My illusion has been destroyed. Most of us live in an illusion. We have an illusion of safety. We have what Jack Spirko will call normalcy bias. We want things to be normal. We expect them to be normal. Even when that’s disrupted, we automatically want to go back to normal. Even though everything around us shows us that normal is not true, we want it to go back there. We want to stick our head back in the dirt. Watch any disaster coverage of anything in America that happens. Somewhere in that, the first thing you’ll hear is, “We just want things to go back to normal.” Not, “Wow, my house was destroyed by a tornado; I’m never living in this state again.” It’s, “I want things to go back to normal.” Your entire coastline was wiped out by a hurricane. “When do we start building right back on the beach again?” You understand what I mean? Chet: Yes. Chance: Taking that into our perspective, in some ways we have to have that. I could not drive a car … I drive to Atlanta quite often. If I didn’t subconsciously believe that I would not be in a car wreck, there’s no way I could drive there. That’s definitely a two-way range, riding through Atlanta. There’s a certain part of our brains that have to work that way. I think about it, and I drive more carefully. When you think about things that can happen to you in a violent manner, and you recognize that that violence is prevalent; it is the norm. It’s not out of ordinary; it is ordinary. It’s just, we live out of ordinary lives. We don’t pay attention to it, because it’s not ever going to happen to us. To me, somebody who’s locked on is somebody who’s illusion has been shattered, if that makes any sense. Chet: It does. What are some of those illusions that they need to shatter, and start being … thinking about, like the carjacking? Chance: Yes, illusion number one is that somebody else is coming to help you. That’s illusion number one. Get used to doing stuff on your own. Illusion number two is that you will be able to detect and outfight or outmaneuver the bad guy. The bad guys don’t play like we do. If you were up on the news, this whole knockout Escape & Evasion

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game thing that’s happening; they roll around in packs. They come up from behind. They’re not what we would think of as being men, who are going to … the typical guy pops out from the alley with a knife and says, “Give me all your money,” and he’s 30 feet away, allowing us to pull that pistol out of the bottom of a purse and shoot at him. That’s not how real-world stuff happens. In the real world, they sneak up behind you, stick you in the ribs a few times with a knife, take your wallet, purse, whatever, and leave you bleeding. That’s reality; and there’s more than one of them. Going with the concealed carry thing, the people that are under-armed, even though they have a weapon … they have this illusion that four or five rounds in this pistol is going to handle most situations, or any situation that I’m going to come across. “I’m not planning on being in a gun fight,” is what you’ll hear them say. Yet, if you do your research and you watch law enforcement videos of them engaging bad guys, you’ll see how many shots are fired between the two of them. A lot of times, neither one of them even hit anything. Why would you go out into the world under-gunned? That’s why I … the concealed carry thing is an issue. I want people to do it. I want people to be prepared, but at the same time understand what you’re going up against. You need to be prepared for the heavy end of it, and not just the light end of it. Does that make sense? It does, yes. I’m sure, when you guys get James Yeager on, he’ll cover that in quite a bit more detail. Stealing cars; you’re definitely going to want to stick to older-model vehicles; 90s Honda Civics are one of my favorites. They’re fairly easy to steal. I could [inaudible 29:27:6]. They have a low signature. I have the misfortune of having an older brother who’s a semi-professional car thief. I call him semi-professional; he keeps getting put in jail for it. I was able to learn some things from him, and so that’s where that knowledge comes from. There’s some tools for that, and it’s not pulling wires out of the bottom and sparking them and all that kind of stuff. There’s actually a small set of tools that you can use, that’ll help you out with that. Pieces of spark plug, for instance; if you break the ceramic off of a spark plug … something due to the density and

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everything of those shards … you can toss one of those little shards at a car window, and it will shatter. Interesting. Versus you taking a big rock and trying to bust it open, if you had to. There’s a … it’s like a more efficient way to shatter the window? Yes. Have you ever tried to shatter a car window, with just one object? I did get a … someone did try to run me over one time, and I did try to stick my boot through the window, which was dumb as hell, but I didn’t have any thought of anything. It bounced off the window. There you go. Imagine you had a little … kind of a little Altoids tin or something in your pocket, that had a couple busted-up sparkplug ceramics in there. You could shatter quite a few car windows if you needed to. Another thing is [inaudible 31:08:6]. Just the ceramic part? Yes, just the ceramic part. You just take the sparkplug and take a hammer or something and bust the ceramic part … the white part from around the sparkplug, and that’ll produce a bunch of little shards. There’s something to do with the density and stuff of those, that even a small little sliver, you just smack it at a car window, and it’ll bust right out. It’s very interesting. Do you throw it at the window, or do you just hold it while you hit the window, or how is it? No, you just toss it at it. Just give it a good fling right there at the window, and it’ll bust right out. Very interesting. Another thing is a screwdriver with a flat end, and you want the shaft of the screwdriver to be squared, not rounded. You want a square one. Essentially, you will just kind of pound that into the ignition and then take a wrench, put it on the square end of the shaft, and then just break the ignition column there and start it right up. You have to break the steering … you have to break … You’re just overpowering it? You’re just overpowering it, yes. You don’t have to … you have to break the steering wheel … the lock on the steering wheel … but that’s not hard, either. Things like that.

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What cars does this work on? It’s one of those things like, if you decide to get a Volkswagen bug, you automatically notice Volkswagen bugs, right? You can tell the exact years and things like that. I imagine it would be a good drill to have a handful of these types of cars in mind, and start paying attention to looking at them so that … Yes. I would stick with nothing newer than like late 90s … late 90s cars … and nothing high-end. Stay away from high-end cars. They’re usually designed with keys that require electronic signature matching and all that kind of stuff. Here’s another thing that, before we go that route, you have to understand there’s other measures we can take. One of those is social engineering. If I can convince you to give me a ride, isn’t that better than me stealing a car? Possibly. I can imagine different situations in either case, but yes. Yes. Let’s say … because when we talk about stealing cars, we’re talking definitely the crap has hit the fan, and it’s every man for himself. What if it isn’t quite to that level? You’re just in a bad situation, and you need to get out of that bad situation. From all appearances, everything else around you appears normal, but you yourself … and this is something that I faced as a teenager. I was 18 years old, and I was on a road trip with a couple guys that I barely knew. They ended up leaving me in a city, in the Midwest, that I’d never been in before in my life. When they left, they left with my wallet, my ID, everything. I’m stranded in the middle of a town in Missouri; didn’t know anybody, had no ID, had no way to do anything. That was pretty crappy. I learned how to be homeless, but I also learned a lot about social engineering. Within three or four months, I had a new ID, a car to drive, a place to live, and a job making $500 a week. That was my first experience with this type of stuff. I’m assuming … I learned some stuff. Was that new ID your real ID, or was it that? Yes, it was. It was. I grew up working hard. I never had a problem working. I wasn’t homeless because I was a bum, I was homeless because I couldn’t produce an ID that said, “Hey, this is who I am. Give me a job.” Eventually, I was able to get one. I used my real social; I wasn’t trying to change my name or anything, I just wanted my ID. This all happened before I joined the Marine Corps.

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It was funny, because once I got to boot camp, I was so excited because I had three meals a day and a place to sleep. That was cool. I learned a lot. I learned about how people perceive you. The longer that I stayed on the streets … I grew up in a very conservative Christian household where people … in the South, where people were nice to each other, and your reputation mattered, and things of that nature. I was not used to people crossing the street to avoid me. I got to see what that was like. It was good, because having been there, I’m not afraid of it, and I learned how to live in that type of situation. That brings up another point in the whole escape and evasion process, is your signature; people call it “being the gray man”. What type of signature do you give off to people? Are you somebody that is extremely noticeable and stands out in a crowd, or can you blend with different environments? We use a homeless man as one of our options … one of our characters, so to speak, that you can use; because people overlook homeless people by design, right? They don’t want to notice them. They don’t want to be around them. They don’t want to be approached. If you want to create some distance between you and everyone else, and blend in and become gray, the homeless character is one that we can attain pretty readily. There’s some key things you’re going to have to be careful of. One is … this goes more into your disguise stuff … but your shoes is a big giveaway. You can’t be running around in $300 tactical boots, trying to look like a homeless man. Watches; watches are a big giveaway. Shoes and watches are the things that most people overlook. Another thing is your … just your physical bearing. For me, I’m 6’2”, I weigh about 230 pounds. It’s going to be hard for me to blend in anywhere. The fact that I spent 8 ½ years in the Marine Corps, I have a certain bearing about me. I have to really, really, really pay attention to my body language, to my physicality, as far as that goes, in order to not stand out. You have to act; become a character of a low self-image, destitute individual. Yes. The same thing goes for … we call them, and this is one of Kevin Reeve’s terms … and he calls it “scepters of authority”. You give a guy a hard hat, a clipboard and a safety vest, and he can walk on to pretty much any construction site in the world, because he has the scepters of authority; the hard hat, the clipboard, and the vest. He may or may not have to talk to anyone, but as long as he appears that he should be there … if somebody pulls up in your front yard,

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and they have an electrical truck, and they get out and they’re doing what they’re doing, you assume they’re supposed to be there. Same thing with the UPS guy. These are the people that can move readily in our environment, because we just kind of tune them out. They’re background. They’re background characters, they’re background actors in our little play here. Learning how to be each and every one of those, should it suit your needs, is a … is something that will serve you well. It’s also one of the more higher end of the skill set spectrum. It’s for people that really get into this stuff, which I do, because I enjoy it. Chet: Right. Could you give a rundown of the different … we’ve got a bum, we’ve got a UPS guy, we’ve got an electrical guy or a contractor. Is that a good enough list for people to start? Are we leaving out another key piece somewhere in this, of disguises that are efficient? Chance: Think about … this is different depending on your location, but if you have some time to kind of sit on a park bench or something and watch people. Notice the people that just kind of float by you and don’t stand out at all. It can be anything, but it has to match your environment. If I’m travelling … let’s say I’m covering 20 blocks in an urban area, and I start off in the downtown industrial area, where a delivery man, a bicycle messenger, or anything like that would be normal. Then I move out into the suburbs, and when I get into the suburbs, maybe a bicycle messenger really isn’t cutting it anymore, but the UPS guy still will. Then I get down into the bad side of town, wherever that may be, and the gig is up. There’s nothing about what I’m doing that’s going to help me to blend into that area. When I talk to people … when you live in an area long enough, and I know you guys are up there in Idaho … whether you live in a city, or you go to the city, most of us will travel to the city for one reason or another in our lifetime. Having a good map of that area, and sitting down and plotting your escape routes, is imperative. That’s going to help you to avoid those areas. Do some research. We have the Internet. We have Google Earth. We have all these resources at our fingertips, that we should be able to basically plot out our entire AO, and figure out where we should go, where we shouldn’t go, what are alternative routes to travel, what is a hidden path or a less thought-of means of escape? I tell people that the reason the wilderness part of that comes in is, Escape & Evasion

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Chet:

Chance:

Chet:

most cities have some type of green landscape within them, whether it’s just a bunch of shrubs, or it’s a small park or whatever. If I can step into the woods and survive in a 10x10 patch of woods, I have avoided conflict. You see what I mean? Yes, it makes a lot of sense. It brings up a question … I know there’s a lot to get into, and it sounds like route planning could use, I don’t know, a couple minutes of time while we have you. Before we get there, we’re talking about UPS guys, and different things like this. In a rioting Katrina environment, who’s the guy that fits in? What is the disguise? This is the survival summit, right, so a heavy emphasis on social collapse, economic collapsing, bad scenarios. What are some disguises for that? Then let’s get into the next … I don’t know if that’s route planning or another aspect of this. In that type of scenario, the disguises are really not going to matter. If you’re walking around, if you’re out, if you’re available … that’s why people talked about not wearing camouflage, or what kind of backpack you have on … “Oh, if you’re wearing a multi-cam backpack, people are going to shoot you,” and all that crap. If you have anything, at that point, you’re a target. It doesn’t matter what color it is. It could be neon green. If you have anything … because at that point, what we’re talking about … and I kind of said this before is, when things are happening to just you, or a small group of people, and everything else seems normal, that’s when we can use our normal gray man type techniques. Once it’s flipped to Katrina-type situation, where games are gangs are getting … they’re attacking each other for settling old scores, and people are just old being human, and doing things that they shouldn’t be doing … there is no disguise for that. You’re going to have to go hard at that point, or you’re going to have to hide. I prefer to hide. In that situation, I would be looking for something that was defendable, something that I could have an escape route from, that would give me the advantage of height; that I could see what was coming, that I could barricade all but a couple of routes in and out, one being my escape route and one being the route to funnel whoever it is that’s going to come in there. That’s where you’re having supplies on hand … having your stuff. The less that you have to travel in that environment, the better off you’re going to be. In that situation, there is no … Disguise.

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Chance:

… no disguise that’s going to work for that. The other end of that, if there’s enough of you, you look like such a hard target that people avoid you. That’s the flip side. Chet: Do you have structure or hide or defendable places? We’re obviously talking in an urban environment, or at least that’s my assumption, for people in this space; that there are good things to think about, places? Chance: Yes. Any place that allows you to channel the … a person’s ability to get to you. It could be barricading off two or three of the stairwells coming up to your apartment, and only having one way in and one way out. If you and your fellow apartment dwellers decide, “Hey, things are getting bad. We need to control this a little bit better,” that comes into play. Remember, the lone wolf is going to be very hard … that mentality is going to be very hard to survive, unless you’re a very, very skilled person and you’re able to sneak around and get the things you need, which goes back to the ability to pick locks. In an urban situation, pretty much everything you need to survive is there, but it’s all locked up. If I can get access to things that I’ve already predetermined, that are good sites, good caches, good resupply points for myself, and I’ve studied the security there, I may be able to survive indefinitely, just going in and out of places that other people won’t think of. Most people, if they’re not familiar with their … the way that grocery stores or Wal-Mart or whatever is resupplied, once you locate the distribution point that all the trucks drive out … that’s where the stuff’s kept. When everybody else is trying to raid the stores, I’m heading in a different direction. Chet: Right. It brings up a point that makes you wonder … are you going to talk about how to set up a kill zone, basically, if you’ve got one stairway in, and you’ve got to take care of blocking it off. Let’s look at it from the other perspective; what kind of fatal funnels do people run into, particularly lone wolf, trying to escape and evade the cities in the Katrina-type lawless scenario? What are the fatal funnels to avoid, because we all know about avoiding gangster areas, but what else should we look for? Chance: Think of choke points such as bridges, tunnels, subways … anything that constricts your movement. Those would be the places that either bad guys will set up their own checkpoints and be robbing people … it’s happened plenty of times in the past. Any type of border area, where the majority of people would want to go. Escape & Evasion

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One of the things I did cover in my video was crossing a river, and in the scenario all the bridges were controlled or manned or clogged up so you couldn’t drive out. We had to look at alternative means of getting across a major water obstacle there. That’s another thing I tell people, is be prepared and learn how to negotiate obstacles, whether it be water, elevation changes, going over walls, going different places; being able to get yourself up and over or down. One of the things I keep in my escape and evasion kit … they were designed for firefighters, and it’s just a small escape rope with a harness. It has a very, very small package, but it has 82 foot of escape rope in it, and a couple D-rings, and the belt actually turns into your seat. I can repel out of a building. I can repel off of something, and lower myself down and get to safety. For the amount of space that it takes up, it’s very, very handy for being able to do that. Chet: That sounds like super-important, especially for people who are like apartment people, or you have to work in the city and something … I don’t know. I don’t know if you were on the seventh floor of the Twin Towers … maybe the seventh floor could have … anyway, fire on the bottom and you need to get out, that sounds like, “Oh yes, it might be a good idea.” Who makes that device that you’re talking about? Chance: There’s several companies that makes it. Mine is from New England Ropes, I believe is the name of the company that makes that one. Yes, you can look up, I think Blue Diamond might make one. Yates, I think, makes one. There’s several companies. Like I say, they were designed originally for firefighters. Mine was actually one that was issued in the military. It’s … it is a very good piece of gear, and it’s expensive. You can get the less expensive ones, but that rig ran me … a friend gave me mine, but they run about 300 bucks; but what is your life worth? Another thing that we’ll tell people in selecting hotel rooms is that the majority of your firefighting trucks and stuff … they have a certain limit as to how high they can reach, and I think it’s right at six floors. When you’re picking your hotel rooms, you might want to stay on the fifth or lower. That’s just a little something to keep in mind if you’re in a big high-rise hotel. Chet: Unless base jumping is part of your emergency plan? What is the next important piece here? Is it route planning, or am I off base there? And … Chance: No, route planning is key. Let’s … I tell people a good exercise. Let’s say you’ve flown into … you guys fly into Atlanta. You’re going to come to the blade show, right? You’ve never been to Atlanta, and it’s a pretty complicated area to get Escape & Evasion

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around in, in some ways. The first thing you want to do when you get off the plane, if you didn’t already pack a weapon with you, is at least arm yourself in some way; a screwdriver, a pocket knife, whatever. Get something to defend yourself with. We could do a whole other discussion on improvised weapons and things of that nature, but get something to arm yourself with, and then get a street-level map, and start looking and studying and committing that map to memory. Once you figure out, “OK, hey here’s … this looks like some good escape routes. This avoids this,” and you’re looking at that key terrain, and studying that map. Then you can develop a strip map, which is basically just cardinal directions, and a few of the streets and escapes that you would want to take, and a little bit of the surrounding area. That way, you can kind of hide that on your person. If you lose your map, you’ve got a backup. Route planning; definitely, good communication is very important. Communication is a whole big spectrum, but bringing it down to something we can actually utilize; having an alternative means of contacting someone. How many people today, especially with our smart phones … if your phone died, could you recite the five most important phone numbers that you need to know, from memory? Chet: Good point. Chance: Let’s say my phone was destroyed, and I need to call a relative, or call someone to help me. If I don’t have that at least written down … and you can … a good thing to do is … and you’ve got to keep it up to date, because people change their phone numbers. Write it all down, type it all up, laminate it, and keep that with you as kind of a recall roster. Another thing is having alternative contact points. Let’s say something happens, and you’re not able to get in contact with your wife or significant other. If you’ve already discussed this with them, they will know the alternative is to call another person and leave a message there; let’s say, somebody outside the affected area. If I can’t get in touch with my wife, I call her parents and leave a message there. When she calls her parents, then they can relay that message to her, if that makes sense. Chet: What about in situations where phones aren’t available? Chance: You’re going to get into your HAM radios, your … two-way radios are not really that great, unless you’re relatively close to each other. E-mails … a lot of people Escape & Evasion

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Chet:

forget about land lines. Cell phones can go out, but land lines possibly will still be working. The most important thing you can do is have a no-coms plan. That strictly means, “If we cannot communicate, and something to this level happens, this is what I’m going to do.” That way, whether you’re communicating or not, you know that other person … if they’re alive, and if they are unharmed … they are proceeding to rally point A, let’s say for instance. That helps you, as the person either outside of the affected area, or the person at home; because now you don’t have that stress and that fear of, “Well, what do we do? What’s going on? Where do I go? How do I get in contact with them?” You know, just like a fire drill, “Hey, if something happens, he or she is going to be moving from this point to this point, or they’re going to stay put. The whole thing is they are going to stay put, and I am going to come get them.” Whatever the case is, you have to have it worked out prior to, because it can happen. Communications can be lost, for whatever reason. If you’re bouncing all over the place, you’re going to miss each other. It can relieve a lot of stress. You need to write this stuff down. Write it down, type it up, agree upon it, and put it in a safe place. That way, you’ll have that. In a stressful situation, you may forget. You probably will forget. Write this stuff down, pull it out, look at it. “OK, this is what he or she said they were going to do. This is the plan. We stick to the plan. If we get there and something’s wrong, this is our alternate point. If they were not there … they stayed there for three days, and then they moved to this point.” It’s … those are things drawn from the military, because people in the military can get lost. They kind of developed a way of getting back together and reconnecting. I want to go back and … maybe this is actually going forward. When you talked about route planning, I have to drive up into the city a lot. There’s only one main freeway coming back down, and it would inevitably be clogged if something … in certain situations. A lot of water where I’m at, and so that was an interesting point. Bridges, those choke points … I know I’m going to have to use it in planning those routes, because it’s like the only way. That would mean I’d need to have something cached or stored or hidden somewhere, to be able to use once I got there, I guess; unless you planned on stealing a boat, which I suppose is possible. Does this lead us into, how should people strategically cache some things? I don’t know which one of these topics

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Chance: Chet: Chance:

Chet: Chance: Chet: Chance:

you wanted to pick here. We didn’t talk about how long we were going to go here, so I don’t know how … No, that’s fine. Caching, or …? Let’s talk about both of them, because they are kith and kin, so to speak. In my video, and I’ve thought about this, and how could I possibly get across or navigate or even use the river to escape? Because waterways are a great method for escaping a city. A lot of cities are built on waterways; the reason why they exist. If you can already have a pre-staged … in this case, I used a military-grade folding kayak. They used these in World War II, and this one’s a modern design, but it packs away pretty nicely. What I did is, I used a storage building that I was already renting. I kept a few items of storage … importance in there, different things. In the back, I actually set it up as a miniature safe house. I had a military cot in there, I had a couple wool blankets, sleeping bags. I had one of those camping toilets that you buy at Wal-Mart that has the chemicals in it, so you can relieve yourself. I had ample water, a couple of cases of MREs, a spare gun and ammo; stuff like that there, and also had the kayak. If you think about, what if you’re stuck in the city, or what if you can’t get back, having something like that would be vital to give you a place to lay up, a place to hide, a place to resupply. If you already have a storage unit anyway, you’re already paying for it, and you have access to it. You’re supposed to be there. It gives you a lot of options, without having to break any laws. You know what I mean? Yes. You’re not having to break in somewhere and develop a little hidey-hole somewhere; it’s yours. The majority of ones I’ve been to are 24-hour access. Perfect. Because that … that really helps in the … looking at some type of a water craft; I don’t know what your skill level is as far as paddling, or if that’s not available, you’d have to have something motorized. Same thing with stealing a car; if it gets to that point, and there’s a boat tied up out there and nobody’s around and you really need to get home … I’m going to leave the guy an IOU and take off. Then, you’ve got to have the skillset. Do you know how to operate a boat? Do

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you know how to navigate a river? Do you know how to deal with that kind of stuff? Are you prepared to be out on the water, as far as your clothing and stuff’s concerned? There’s a lot of … Chet: Those are great points. The water is quite the scary place, depending on the kind of water you … it’s a force to be reckoned with when fog sets in, and different … probably most of this is rivers and things of that nature, versus the sounds and straits and open waters. It can get a little dicey if you don’t know what you’re doing. Chance: Yes, you want to make sure you’re not jumping out of the pan and into the fire, for sure. Caches are very important. You … a lot of people think of burying a PVC tube in the dirt, and all this kind of stuff. There’s several ways … plenty of ways you can cache things. You can rent storage lockers. You can look around in areas that you can have access to, that most people wouldn’t think of. Some gyms will … are 24 hours a day, and you have a locker there that you put a lock on it and keep your gym bag, where your gym bag happens to have bottles of water, an MRE, and a couple other things that’ll help you. You’re not going to draw any attention going in and out of a gym with a backpack, or a duffel bag. That’s something more for your inner-city stuff, but I tell people, “Look at what’s around you and figure out the things that you can access that will help you. Then, substitute that with your own stuff that’s placed in areas that you can get to.” I try to make at least one cache in every direction, that is no more than one day’s walk. A day’s walk can differ greatly, depending on the scenario. If you’re just strolling down the sidewalk, then that’s one thing. If you’re trying to avoid roving gangs, and you’re having to hide for 30 or 40 minutes at a time before you can move again, that pace can get slowed drastically. You may only cover three or four city blocks in one afternoon. Those are things you have to take into consideration. Chet: What would you cache in the less-legal … in current situations? What are those sorts of areas? Obviously, you could find a patch of dirt and bury something, but what are other things people don’t … aren’t aware of, that are less traditional locations to consider? Chance: As far as locations, or what to put in them? Chet: I guess both is important, but locations is my question. Chance: Locations; as a general rule, the easier it is to access something, the less secure it’s going to be. You want to have something that is rarely … accessible to you, Escape & Evasion

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Chet: Chance:

but rarely, if at all, used by someone else. You’ve got to look kind of below the surface, so to speak. Look at your surroundings, and look at places that other people just don’t pay attention to. If you’ve got a local park that has some type of a terrain feature, or something that you can cache something at, you have reason for being there. You have cover for action, so to speak. “What are you doing?” “Well, I’m geo-caching.” OK, that’s a big hobby nowadays. A lot of people do that. Nothing says that your geocache can’t be a larger item. Those are cover for action type things. You want something that’s not going to draw attention to yourself, and you want to be able to access it relatively easy, without any tools. If I have to go out with a pick and a shovel to get to my cache … I’m in an urban situation … it’s probably not going to do me much good. The things that you put in those caches, have to be things that you’re willing to use. Don’t bury your gold. Don’t bury your guns. If it is a firearm that you’re placing, it’s got to be something that you’re just … you’re willing to lose, and willing for it not to be there when you get there. I put expendable items; I think about what I carry every day, and what am I going to run out of faster? Food and water; you might want to put some medical supplies in there, that’d be fine … maybe an extra radio or something. Normally, what is the heaviest things for us to carry? Food, water and ammo, and those are the three things that we would probably expend the most of; hopefully not ammo, because you’re trying to hide, you’re not trying to get into gunfights. Food and water is something; let’s say you don’t have anything. You’re cut off from your normal … your car, you’re cut off from your 72-hour bag you keep in your car, for whatever reason. Having basic survival items; a shelter, a way to make fire, a way to procure food, or food and water stored … those things will help you out tremendously. I would imagine, a thing that can carry it all, too. If you don’t have it on you, putting it in a backpack so that you … Yes. Backpacks … for that type of thing, a cache, I look at a lot of my gear. The secondary gear market is wonderful, because there’s so many things you can get, but one of them is just a military-issued ALICE pack, with or without the frame. You can find them easy for 25 or 30 bucks, and it’s not like it’s your $300 Mystery Ranch pack that you’re sticking in a hole somewhere. It’s sturdy, it’s going to hold up, and it’s there if you need it.

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Chet:

OK, cool. I think that gives people quite a bit to think about huh, bro? Anything else coming to mind, or Chance? What else are people not aware of? Go ahead, bro. Dave: I certainly think it brings up some interesting thoughts. It kind of made me think, in my area, possibly carrying a baseball bag in my truck, and the jersey for kind of going incognito. There’s nothing wrong with a dad walking around with his kid and a baseball bag while, instead of bats, you’ve got an AR-15 in there. Basically, hiding in plain site seems to be quite the realization. Yes, I think it was a very thought-provoking call here. Yes, that’s all I have. Chet: OK. Are there some other things, Chance, if you want to take a few more minutes, if people aren’t … more steps to this? I mean obviously, yes, but … Chance: Just within the scope of the things that we’ve covered, learn how to protect yourself; with a firearm, without a firearm. Learn how to improvise weapons. Learn how to be aware. Learn how to avoid conflict, avoid bad situations. That’ll serve you extensively, in your life in general, but especially in this type of scenario. Develop a communications plan. Have a way of getting in contact with people, or knowing what to do if you can’t get in contact with them. Learn how to develop your routes. Learn some basic escape and evasion techniques. This stuff takes a while to learn how to do, even longer to get better at, but it is there, and it is available. Be prepared; that’s as much … and one thing that I didn’t cover in all this is physical fitness. You can have all the knowledge in the world; if you cannot physically move your body up and over an obstacle … if you cannot physically cover a given amount of distance in a certain amount of time … you need to fix that. That’s all … you don’t have to be a commando ninja to do this stuff, but you at least need to be able to move your own body weight in a given period of time, and a certain amount of distance, and things of that nature. It doesn’t do you any good to learn all this stuff, and then have a heart attack going up a flight of stairs. Chet: Amen to that. That’s so often said, and so underappreciated. I think the best way to drive that one home is to actually … you mentioned earlier, it’s not the scope of this call, but fireteam drills and stuff, where you’re flopping your body down in prone, and getting up and running, and all this sort of stuff, and having to do that kind of thing. You quickly realize, especially with the full-plated gear, Escape & Evasion

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that conditioning is a little more important than you realize, if you actually ever have to use it to save your life. Chance: Exactly. It makes you look at, and really be critical of, the gear that you’re carrying, and the weight that you’re carrying, and what it is that you’re trying to accomplish at that point. Remember, we’re not trying to fight a war. Yes, we want to be able to defend ourselves, but we want to focus on disappearing; not being seen and not being detected. If I could utilize any of the military’s training and tactics, I would say that of the scout sniper is one that would bear study. You’re talking about two guys, possibly four, moving in enemy territory undetected. If I was going to study any type of military tactics, as far as what we’re talking about, that of scout sniper would definitely rank high up there in military skill sets to try to study and learn. Chet: Cool, OK. I also want to emphasize, there’s the first part you talked about that you need to know as well, was the escaping of restraints. We had talked before this call about how … whether we should include that or not in the presentation, and that it really is just not capable of being taught well via this style of presentation, but that … and you’ve mentioned some … there are some places where you can go to have people teach you those particular skill sets, like you said, in a weekend. Could you point people towards resources? Do you have some resources? Let’s talk about those now. Chance: I would … yes, the first place I would recommend people is, go to onPoint Tactical’s urban escape and evasion class. It’s a really, really good class. I do training as well, on an individual basis, if somebody wants to contact me via Facebook or whatever, and we can discuss doing some training. I’ve had students come down, and we’ve covered some really good stuff, and they were very excited about what we did. I … mine is a little more hands-on than some of the other ones, and we’ll teach you how to do things like making a knife out of a lid off of a toilet; skills like that, to where you’re never unarmed. I’ll teach you how to make a bow out of fiberglass rods that you can pick up out of people’s driveways; stuff like that, that is … at least will teach you how to arm yourself, and also other escape and evasion and survival techniques. Chet: Very cool. You have DVDs; you want to talk about what they go into? Chance: Yes. We have our first one out right now; it’s “Surviving Civil Unrest”. It’s on Amazon, and I cover a lot of what we talked about in our discussion here, in Escape & Evasion

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Chet: Chance: Chet:

depth. It is an acted-out portrayal. I have people that are experts … Kevin Reeve’s actually one of the guys that we have on there and interview. We just explain how this stuff works; what causes it, what things to look for. Then we go into our evasion portion, where I’m actually travelling throughout the city and engaging different obstacles and showing you how to negotiate that, and places that you want to stay, and places you don’t want to stay, and things of that nature. If you want to see all of this in more detail, and actually portrayed on screen, I do recommend people pick that up. One of the things that I learned is, people complain about what they see on television. I have friends who have had survival shows on television, and you’re restrained by what a producer wants you to do. I noticed that either on the YouTube side, people would do a lot of classes, but it just wasn’t entertaining; and on the television side, it was very entertaining, but not so high on skill set. I just went ahead and produced my own, where I could be in control of what was going on. Check that out; it’s on Amazon, and you can contact me on Chance Sanders’ urban survival page on Facebook. Yes, if you want to get some training, get up with me. Thank you, Chance. I think that is about it. I do want to just remind people … at least that’s it that we’re going to cover today. Certainly. As with all of these presentations in Survival Summit, you quickly realize, “Oh, tip of the iceberg; got it.” It’s important for people to realize … because all we see is the tip of the iceberg. I think one of the things I’m realizing is, this is exposing what lurks beneath the waters, so to speak, and how much more there is to all of this survival stuff than people realize. I’m hoping it’s really opening people’s eyes. I did just want to give a quick plug for the next … you mentioned his name, from onPoint Tactical, and he’s going to be on here. A similar type of thing, but it’s going to be on urban survival, not escaping and evading. Just stay tuned, everyone, for that particular presentation as well. For those of you in those urban environments, or you have to work in those urban environments, you want to know a little bit more about survival in that setting, versus survival in the woods setting; we are going to have another presentation on that, so stay tuned.

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Dave: Chance: Chet: Chance:

Other than that, Chance, thank you. Dave, any final thoughts, or should we send him on his way? That was awesome. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. No problem. Have a good one, Chance. You, too.

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